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Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 09-19-2002 22:26

This thread is for a Formal Debate. If you are not a debate participant, please make your posts in the related Peanut Gallery thread. Thank You!

The subject for this Formal Debate is: Should Drugs Be Legal in America?

Taking the side of “Yes, Drugs should be legal” is: RammStein.

Taking the side of “No, Drugs shouldn't be legal” is: tomeaglescz.

Refereeing this debate will be me, InSiDeR.

Debate Background:
There really hasn't been much discussion on Drugs since I have been here, but nevertheless the people spoke and chose this topic so we will debate over it!

Debate Format:
I have randomly chosen tomeaglescz to start the debate. He will submit an argument supporting his side of the subject.

Then RammStein will submit his argument, and optionally he can counter what tom has to say, but it is mandatory for him to state his opinion.

Since this is a 1v1, the above 2 steps will be repeated, if there is any confusion I will address it in the peanut gallery.

Then after a few days or however long it takes, I will select a question from the P Gallery and post it and Rammstein will submit his answer first, then tom will answer his second. Then I will again select another Q from the P-G and post it, and then tom will answer it first, followed by RammStein second.

Debaters: Take your time and be accurate on what you submit, and be sure to cite your work at the end of your posts, and I ask that you do not post your sigs or use any slimies while posting.

And please try to be respectful of your opponent’s comments/counters.

Also if you for some reason cannot get to your 'puter for a span of time, make notice in the P-G.


Let's get it on!

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 09-22-2002 15:26

OK so here is my opening Statement for the Debate on "Should drugs be legalised in the USA?"

First let me clarify something, This is my openeing statement and my full argument with facts and fgures to support this statement will be posted after Rammstein has posted his opening statement.

The topic of drugs has reared its head in the asylum on several occaisions with many differnet opinons but this is the first time that it has been debated in this way, My objective here is provide you with the argument that drugs should not be legalised in the USA or anywhere else including here in Europe.

My definition of Drugs is as follows:

Any substance (Natural or Synthetic ) which has when taken has physiological, or psycholigical effects on the body, this does not include legal drugs supplied originally by a physician that are then subsequently abused or these drugs which are obtained illegally.

Some examples of what i consider illegal drugs are listed below.

Amphetamines (street names Speed whizz,Uppers,Sulphate)
Cocaine (streetnames Charlie,coke,snow)
Crack Cocaine (street names rock,wash)
Heroine (Street names (Dragon,H,Smack,Browns)
LSD (Acid)
Hallucinagenic Mushrooms (Psylocibin) (street name Magic musrooms,liberty caps) Only illegal in england when processed.
Ecstasy (street names E,Doves,Biscuits)
Cannabis (Street names Hash,Blow,Draw,Dope,Grass)
Ketamine (Street Names Special K)
GHB (Liquid odourless,tasteless form of ecstasy)

These are some of the more illustrious of the illegal drugs availiable and by no means should be considered a definitive list.

OK so why am i opposed to the legalisation of Drugs,

Many arguments have been put forward for the legalisation of drugs one such argument recently has been for the legalisation of cannibis for medical reasons, It has been shown that cannibis can be beneficial for certain medical conditions, although this is the case there would be no need for fullscale legalisation as has been argued many times, just allowing doctors to prescribe it as other legal drugs on prescription only, IF it can be PROVEN that the individual actually will benefit from it. I Do not support the argument for legalising canabis in General as it can and often does lead to the person trying other forms of illegal drugs.

Other Arguments for Legalising drugs for example are;

If drugs were legalised their would be more control over the quality of the drugs and also it would lead to less drug related crimes.

Both of these statements can be trashed with one simple word "ECONOMICS"

How? easy people are greedy and want to make money, as now certain drugs ie those from the doctors that are legal people are willing to sell their legal drugs to others to make money (those buying them for whatever reason cannot legally obtain them) so if legal drugs are being traded illegally why would legalising the current illegal drugs make a difference.

Another economic factor is simply this a lot of illegal drugs cause dependecies (habit,addictions) now once people get to this stage of the road THEY NEED THEIR FIX, it doesnt matter if the drug is legal or illegal if they cant afford it they will resort to other measures to obtain it, e.g. theft etc.

So just because you legalise a drug does not mean that you will reduce drug related crime, so BANG goes another pro drug argument.

Another Argument for Pro Drugs is Freedom of choice for the individual, however as i have just shown that persons choice to "Do Drugs" can and often does interfere with other innocent parties lives, ie they get robbed burgled so somebody can get "thier fix".

Controlling quality: Another useless point of view to use to support a claim that drugs should be legalised, many legal drugs now are changed or adulterated when they appear on the black market so why would legalising current illegal drugs produce a better quality drug, and anyway someone soewhere will be tempted into producing cheaper illegal copies and selling them, those people who wish to buy drugs will often turn to the cheapest source going, again defeating the pro drug argument.

This Concludes my opening statement, my full argument with facts and figures to support this statement will be posted after Rammstien posts his opener.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.


Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 09-23-2002 16:26

Opening Argument: Why Legalizing Drugs will result in lower crime and reduced costs on spending tax payers money for the war on drugs.

History Lesson, Prohibition .. alcohol was declared illegal and quickly the end result was organized crime .. with the demand for alcohol up and the streets could name it’s price. Criminals gained and civil rights were substituted in an attempt to keep people from drinking. As we all know Prohibition was repealed and organized crime was quickly on the downfall or looking for something new to take advantage of the common man for

Present Day .. with the war on drugs .. organized crime has once again profited from this venture .. millions of Americans occasionally use illegal drugs and no law will stop them from using it .. let’s face it the war on drugs has failed and will never be won because just like in any market when there is a demand there WILL be a supply .. and don’t let me forget to mention their profits will largely decrease and our law enforcement can begin to concentrate on real criminals .. legalizing drugs will quickly decrease organized crime and force those that are dealers to register as a pharmacy or drug store/shack however you’d like to put it .. Cocaine, Opium, Heroin, and marijuana are harmless drugs .. the use of these drugs are by choice not by necessity .. we are all personally responsible for what we choose to do with our lives and bodies for that matter .. making drugs legal will send a message to illegal drug users that now your consumption of a particular drug can be monitored and finding help will become easier .. but we as Americans need to take responsibility for ourselves rather then put it in the hands of the law or the drug dealer.

There is only one point I’d like to counter in my opponents opening statement and this is when he gives two points on Economics .. the other points that can be argued in pros forever but to me they are irrelevant and can be argued all day long and only to a draw .. but let me counter tom’s two points on economics

Those that sell legal drugs on the black market are those that didn’t need the legal drug in the first place and have crooked ways of obtaining a signed note from a doctor or fake doctor for that matter .. much like anyone can obtain your SSN or Drivers License number to get what they want .. it is just as easy for crooks to get what they want and get it on the street .. I have never read or heard of a patient that NEEDED the legal drug to live or get better sell his/her drugs just to make a buck .. to those that do sell their prescription drugs on the street they either didn’t care for there life in the first place or were never sick to begin with

Many of these habits or addictions begin when they are young or depressed and looking for something that will numb their minds from all the anguish and suffering they are particularly going through .. making illegal drugs legal PUTS these drugs in the hands of certified doctors .. and these drugs would be properly prescribed to those that need it for several reasons .. having these drugs on the street only makes getting these drugs easier to obtain and use .. this is what organized crime wants and thrives from

To me Economically speaking .. legalizing these drugs will force organized crime and individuals to report what they are making and they must pay taxes on it .. rather them going free on paying taxes yearly unlike the rest of us in the US that earn an honest living .. and any exporting and importing of these drugs can be properly taxed .. no more wasting our tax payers money on the lost war on drugs but in turn feeding our economy and an industry that will never die much like Alcohol and Cigarettes

Mind you this doesn’t include those SOOOO crooked that they will always get there hands on drugs legal or illegal and sell it as they wish .. but then if these crooks think about it .. they can’t profit from such a venture because they can’t compete with a set price in the pharmacy or drug store .. I mean who here would play 20 bucks for a joint if they could walk down the street and get it for 15 bucks? .. but again that is there choice and they themselves surely belong in the prison

Oh and tom on your second point .. Alcohol also makes people resort to any measures necessary to obtain anything and everything they will .. but alcohol isn’t illegal and crimes are committed daily with alcohol in the mix somewhere

[having some fun now]
To the jury .. my opponent has laid out a plan to only show that every positive point to make drugs legal can be countered or void .. but in my eyes he is hiding something or not telling you the truth .. why not show examples of why drugs shouldn’t be legal .. we’ll both have facts in our next round but to in my eyes he is only trying to weaken my opening statements .. could that be because he has nothing strong enough that will support why drugs should remain illegal? I’m only pointing something out .. but you must all decide if drugs should be legal or illegal .. if drugs are legit you must acquit .. [soft chuckle]
[/having some fun now]

[edit: just fixing my english]

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 09-23-2002).]

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 12-08-2002 03:27

OK after much delay delay, and real life taking over here is my formal post:

I Had originally planned on bashing you over the head with facts, figures etc.
But quite simply put one make make the same facts and figures if interpreted in another way match either side of this argument.

So my argument is based upon

2.Morality and a sense of decency.

so we will approach it from a logical point of view to start.

Will The legalisation of drugs reduce crime or drug related deaths???



Simple:Just because the source of the drug falls under a legalised system will NOT prevent drug related crimes or deaths for the following reasons.

Drugs are addictive, with addiction comes uncontrollable urges for the next "FIX". Drug Addicts dont give a rats shit about anything else but getting that next fix.

They will lie,cheat,beg,steal whatever it takes to get their next "fix" . Just because drugs may be legalised does not mean that the crimes will stop, lets assume that they come under some form of presciption for example. Many drugs (legal one's) are availiable on the "Black Market". SO what good would those drugs classed as illegal now being legalised do??? It's a simple case of supply and demand. A classic case of this was the example used by my opponent.

That of the period of Prohibition: Alchohol was made illegal, So organised crime supplied the booze. So more alchohol related crimes (i.e. Supply of). But did it reduce the drink related problems? No, did re-legalising it stop people getting drunk, causing fights, drink driving and other alchohol related crimes. NO. Simply put Hard DRugs are that dangerous and addictive that it wouldnt make a difference if legal or illegal the drug related problems would still remain.

Now for my next piece of logic:

Dont you think if the legalisation of drugs would work it would have been done somewhere by now...

Amsterdam I hear you cry!!! Canabis only, in licensed premises, that are strictly controlled and not that freely availiable. AND no other Drugs are LEGAL.
The people whocan make these types of decisions have all the facts and figures, dont ya think that they would have done it by now if it was the way to sort out the drugs problems.

OK next up:

Will it reduce the deaths related to drug incidents.

Accidents/suicides/murders will happen, people under the influence of drugs are more accident prone/suicidal/psychotic than any other form of self induced stupor. Their minds are unbalanced, senses fucked up... Legalising drugs will not stop these things.

ok let me approcah point 2.

MOrality and a sense of decency?

By legalising drugs we are simply making it a damn site more easy for more people to become addicted, we would be sending a message to people that says:

"hey folks drugs are legal, they cant be that bad or dangerous after all" Do you want your children to grow up in a world wheer drugs are freely availiable???

By keeping drugs ilegal we ensure that at least some protection can be offered to our children and famillies by the fact that they arent that easy to get hold of.

How can we look at those whose famillies have been left without children,fathers mothers etc due to Drug Related incidents, whether it be an overdose or a narcotics cop killed fighting drug related crimes, and "OK FOLKS WE FUCKED UP" We're gonna legalise it now, sorry it wasnt done before...

ok onto my final point


I have worked as a "bouncer" in some of the uk's biggest nightclubs (disco's) and dance events for some of the country's top security companies. I was a fully trained first aider, ie Military background, plus i recieved specialist training in order to deal with drug related medical emergencies..

I have seen up close the real tradegies of drug related incidents...18 year olds die from extasy, heroin or cocaine overdoses, drugs are dangerous, they can kill and will kill without warning, just because a drug is legal will not reduce the risks associated with it, but in effect multiply them hugely, it will make them easier to get to...more accessible. lead to more and more drug related crimes and deaths...


Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-10-2002 00:55

[just bumping this to the top as I didn't even think this was still going on .. give me a day or so to catch up]

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-03-2003 12:38

Things that go *bump* in the night...just keeping this alive, folks! Don't forget, we got the Formal Debate off to a grand start...let's keep it going.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 01-03-2003 15:57

sorry .. working on it .. busy holiday season for me

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 01-23-2003).]

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 01-21-2003 18:16

*bump* so we dont lose this ........ er RAM?????

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 01-21-2003 20:06

sorry tom .. life has been all over the place for me and I haven't had enough time to dedicated to it yet .. but I have started my response to you

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 01-23-2003).]

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 01-23-2003 04:35

Excuse the delay I’m trying to approach this as best I can and in a convincing matter and I’ve slowly gathered my info and prepared it for my defense .. So here it is!

Tom .. good friend no bashing needed here just good persuasion .. I’ll follow your argument base.

But before I do this ..I want to counter your question .. “Will The legalisation of drugs reduce crime or drug related deaths???”

No one word here just some small facts.
I’m just going to quote this report and provide a link to valuable info. This report was released in 2000

“The report uses a number of classifications of 'acute drug related deaths' in order to make more valid international comparisons. Whichever method is used, the mortality in Sweden was amongst the highest at 1.5, slightly below the UK at 2.2 using the strictest definition (units are stated to be deaths per 100,000 population per year).
The rates in Holland and France were 0.2 and 0.3 respectively which are close to the levels of the 19th century when opium products were available over the counter in most countries (see Berridge & Edwards, 'Opium and the People'). These staggering excess deaths in Sweden and UK are 7 to 10 times the figures from Holland (or, I understand, Switzerland which is not a member state, but last reported 5 overdose deaths per million, I understand in ±1997). “

I couldn’t find a webpage on drug related crime rates in Europe because I was looking for a particular report about drug related crime rates are lower in Holland then they are in it’s neighbor France where drugs are illegal .. but I couldn’t find it .. so be it .. on with my convincing

Are Drugs Dangerous? Are drugs evil? Are drugs addictive?

Yes of course they are, but the better question is whether the prolicy on drugs of keeping drugs illegal is better then the policy of legalizing the drugs.

As I said in my first defense .. please keep in mind Prohibition and I still say that now

Common Logic .. if drugs were to become legal .. the organized drug-mafia would stand to lose billions in annual revenue in money that becomes illegal when a purchase of a drug happens .. let’s face it the drug-mafia will do what it takes to keep the “War on Drugs” alive, and I wouldn’t put it past them to bribe either.

The pharmaceutical industry is to gain moderately .. due only to a new market that would open up for them .. also the general population would benefit in quite a few ways

  • crime reduction .. I point to this website for a comparison .. read Study finds teenage drug use higher in USA than Europe
  • increased tax revenues, as the sale of drugs will now be taxed .. and would reduce the need to budget the “War on Drugs”
  • public health improvements .. the quality and chemical pureness of drugs will be regulated by the FDA .. and more research may be performed to study the side effects of these drugs and the reduction thereof

Morality and Sense of Decency

hmmmmmm .. how to approach this .. drugs moral? .. hmmmm .. one can say .. in the sense of being used properly, yes .. in the sense of being abused, no .. making drugs legal will raise the moral sense of drugs in the sense that drug users are being monitored and recorded .. and therefore they can be approached about there addiction and treated as needed .. let’s face it with cigarettes they are addictive and what other industry has emerged to help this addiction .. yes that’s right those nicotine patches

hmmmmm .. a sense of decency .. are we as a culture not being responsible in the sense that we are letting drug lords and their indecent drugs parade our streets .. we are fighting this war on drugs yet if you read that report I linked you too we have a higher use of drugs amongst teenagers .. making drugs legal will be harder to obtain .. and hey let’s face it .. to the teenagers mind “drugs make you cool .. and hey they are illegal .. let’s do it!” that reasoning will not play a major a role anymore .. but I can’t say it will stop them from getting what they want .. they in reference to the teenager


None what so ever .. I from time to time smoke the spliff .. lovin’ the ganja .. or inhale the fumes from a pipe .. but weed has proven to not be addictive .. as for other drugs .. never experienced them .. but one of my cousins has O.D.ed on an illegal drug .. how did I feel about this .. hmmmmm .. to be honest with my fellow inmates nothing .. drugs are a personal choice I can’t control anyone from saying yes or no from using a drug .. I can only control my self and know I’m mentally strong enough to be smart about what I do to my body

[you don’t have to buy my propaganda .. do your own research .. tom your up!]

A link I found to be useful:
Drug Definitions

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 01-23-2003).]

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 01-24-2003 05:31

Ok, now for the question.

First to answer this, is tom, then ramm. I came up with this question on my own since not too many people seem to be expressing their opinions in the peanut gallery =(.


Tom, if you were to find out that legalizing drugs would benefit the economy of America, would that change your perspective of legalization? And if it would, how would you express your opinion on it?

Ram, if you were to find out that legalizing drugs would NOT benefit the economy of America, would that change your perspective of legalization? And if it would, how would you express your opinion on it?

First tom, then ram.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 01-24-2003 19:01

Hmm....Nice Question Insider

OK now for my answer.

Just because something would benefit an economy doesnt necessarily mean it will automatically bring about other benefits.

take for example petrol/oil prices, would reducing the price have any effect on the pollution it brings, yes probably more people would use their cars more often and in turn that would increase pollution.

ok thats a way of showing that economics doesnt always have positive impacts.If for example you meant taxes on drugs would generate more income for the US Government and it in turn was going to invest that in rehabilitating drug addicts and education; then there may be a benefit, but legalising it will still have the attendant problems that drugs bring.

Such as addiction, most drugs by thier nature are addictive, making them legal will only increase the number of people that could possibly get addicted, as it will make them more easy to get. That in turn will place a further burden on a percentage of that extra income will be taken on helping the new addicts...

Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be a real answer to the drugs question as far as legalising it goes. They are by nature a dangerous thing..
I am whole heartedly against the legalisation of drugs, i have seen the damage that they can do up close, just because an individual made the choice to take drugs, and got addicted and maybe died or turned to crime doesnt make it any less sad that their life was ruined. They may have taken it for the first time and died, its a sad fact of life that the dance culture and drugs go hand in hand, even more so in europe than the US, and along with that brings youth inexperience and perr culture, these people will do whatever it takes to obtain something they want.. For example alchohol (over 21 in US to purchase) but how many pople under 21 will purchase a legal substance illegally if they want it. It just wont work, you will have to put restrictions on it somehow, which in turn will exclude some drugs/people which will in turn generate an illegal black market for it. CATCH 22

I Honestly believe that if it was down to pure economics then i wouldnt and couldnt change my view.

Untill someone can come up with a better alternative i think drugs should stay illegal. It makes them a damn sight harder to obtain, makes them more expensive and less people can get caught in the deadly trap of drugs.

anyway thats my 0.2c

[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 01-24-2003).]

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 01-29-2003 17:50

If legalizing drugs would not benefit the economy would that change my perspective?

Honestly .. after the research I have performed in this debate .. I’m going to have to say no .. due only because legalizing is also a proper path for making drugs “cleaner” or more “pure” .. I appreciated tom’s example of the petrol/oil that was a very valid point .. but I’d like to use his example to make my own point

Oil is a necessity in our society .. we don’t have a choice about whether or not we need it or want it .. without oil we can’t get to work or recreation .. and the pollution of air is a set back or an effect of what price we pay to use oil as a necessity .. drugs are a different story all together .. or in our case .. illegal drugs are a different story .. illegal drugs aren’t a necessity(this doesn’t excuse those who make it a necessity only because of there addiction) .. illegal drugs are a want, a need, a I GOTTA HAVE .. drugs are a choice a personal choice one makes in our society

If the economy wouldn’t benefit from drugs being legalized it would not change my stand point only because illegal drugs are getting more and more unsafe by the day it is harder to find the purer drugs the drugs that don’t have major counter reactions to people’s bodies that as a result makes them O.D. .. making illegal drugs legal will benefit at least in this way .. drugs will become pure and potential side effects will dwindle .. the economy is a fragile thing and to predict what it will do has become a science in itself

Playing the devils advocate here .. let’s say it would change my opinion .. I would say that drugs should still become legalized only because of the pure fact our “war on drugs” is only costing us more as a nation to maintain then it would if we legalized drugs .. we as a nation learn when something fails .. first with prohibition .. and now our stubborn society doesn’t want to admit that we failed with the “war on drugs” .. personally we don’t need to admit we failed just need to work with what is really going on .. holding onto a more reality about our nations drug problems .. if we as a nation would change our drug policy into accepting them it would shake up the world on drugs .. the US is the forefront for all change and making it legal will send a shock wave to all terrorist and organized drug-mafia groups that use this method to feed there beliefs and those that try to destroy the nation for which they get there most business from in the first place

Thanks for the debate guys .. hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did .. and hopefully I answered the question is the best possible way

.::. cEll .::. 513

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