Topic awaiting preservation: What do you think..... (Page 1 of 3)

.....About this Bible verse: John 3:3 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

First of all, what are your insights on being "born again" Also, If you don't believe the Bible is true, and this turns out to actaully be true, doesn't it make you scared that you will not see the kingdom of God? The Bible describes as as being a place of eternal torment, I don't know about you, but i wouldn't want to spend eternity there. I'm sure a few of you may think I am close minded and ignorant, but I don't care.


Do unto others before they do unto you

I will try and stay away from this place called 'as.' It sounds really terrible.

Is "as" near Santa Fe? hehe

And, Kevin, I hate to tell you this, but God gave you a brain. Although you may think it's just insulation to keep the back of your face warm, it was meant to be used.

In John 3:3, Jesus is asked a question by the Pharisee Nicode'mus, and he is asked questions throughout the chapter. What the Pharisees are doing is trying to test Jesus' knowledge and interpretation of temple law and teachings. Jesus uses this as an opportunity to teach "them" instead.

Now, the whole "born again" thing has been blown way out of proportion by religious groups and people desperate for some kind of catch phrase. Now, if you do indeed believe in the Bible, then you should know that one of Christ's purposes on earth was to cleanse us of our sins by dying. See, before this we had broken our covenant with God and the gates of heaven were closed. With His crucifixion, we have all been "born again". Funny how most people don't seem to get that part. They also don't seem to get the part that "to be born again" is a metaphorical statement. As to what the metaphor alludes, you'll have to figure out for yourself.

Also, it is a much greater sin to follow God becuase of "fear" rather than "faith". So if you're just following along becuase you don't want to go to "as" (or Hell as we call it here in reality), guess what? You might be going there anyway.

hi kevin,
well, silence had some good points.

as did emperor in your other thread.

it seems you are posting some very 'leading' questions.

now, may i enlighten you on this community?

being the decent folk that we are, we respect each other's beliefs.
we also allow each other to provide arguments to support their own beliefs.

here's a few tips:
want people to listen to you? try and build up a reputation as an intelligent creature in the community before you try and impress your opinions on people.

"a few of you may think I am close minded and ignorant, but I don't care" - no offense, but to me, that simply says "i am close minded and ignorant, so don't even bother trying to argue with me".
surely, if you are firmly convicted to what you believe, you would encourage argument from community members, to give you more opportunity to convince them of your beliefs.

i admire your willingness to put your reputation on the line by professing your beliefs, but there really isn't that much at stake if you had no reputation to begin with.

now, please, take no offense at my message - i am a christian, and would love to convince as many of the guys here as possible that all that "jesus stuff" is for real, and can give meaning to both life and death - but personally, i just don't think you're going about it the right way.

Thanks for those tips. This messageboard is very interesting, that is why I registered, but I need to get used to your ways. I guess I should have reworded my whole post. I guess what I meant to say, is do you believe that what that verse says is true? I fully understand it and all, so I wasn't asking for an explanation of it. I guess I just shoudl've come at it from a different angle.

Do unto others before they do unto you

Well, first of all, welcome to the Asylum...please read the FAQ...

That said, I don't really believe in the Bible, though it is an interesting read...

I think one of our experts on this, Bugs, could better take your question...or, just read up on things in the Formal Debate on Does God exist?...do a search...

And listen to Reitsma...he knows what he is talking about...

"The Kingdom of God is near you, even within your heart."

silence

quote:

---

before this we had broken our covenant with God and the gates of heaven were closed.

---

Ummm, silence. I guess that is a pretty popular belief amoung Christians, so that is probably why I am not one. I am super positive that the gates to heaven have never been closed, and all that is mis-tranlated stuff, or mis-understood stuff. I know that Jesus was an awesome person, and he could heal people and all of that stuff, but I just don't think that it works like that. I mean, what is heaven anyway? Is it even described in the bible? And why would God lock the gates, if there even were gates, and where in the bible does it directly say that we broke a covenant with God and the gates of heaven were closed?

It's in the Hebrew bible somewhere (read: Old Testament). I'll try to get some sources when I get home from work.

The gist is that the covenant the tribes of Israel had with God was broken somehow and God closed the gates of heaven. It's one of the prophecies Jesus was supposed to fulfill by coming to earth.

Let me do some digging and I'll see if I can get you some concrete evidence.

While the Bible is an incredible piece of historical literature, it shouldn't be taken as fact. That's my opinion. I can't tell anyone to agree or disagree with it, but they can say what they want about it, and I won't complain.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the Asylum. You'll fit right in!

no, the gates of heaven were closed...
but Valhalla was taking on the excess until they had to pass some laws to stop the mass immigration...
then souls just started reaching Nirvana without the proper eightfold path (some were even using fivefold paths, yeesh)...
but then Zeus decided to turn the lost souls into frogs which then dropped from the sky like rain upon France.
The frogs then went to live under the sea with Triton and Aquaman.

The end.

Kevin, you ask if the non-believers are scared that they might not get into the kindom of God if the bible turns out to be true.

Do you not find it silly that you are asking people who don't believe in the bible if they are afraid of something written in the Bible?

This is why I have such a difficult time discussing religion with most believers. Even in their attempts to remain objective and start an arguementative point from a position that the bible might not be factual, they almost immediately start making statements that require a belief in the bible.

To answer your question, Kevin, as a non-believer...

No. I am not afraid that I will be turned away from the Kingdon of God. I don't believe in the Kingdom of God, that's kind of the point of being a non-believer. I find your superstition just as silly as most of you find Greek Mythology.

If on the off-chance that the Bible is real, well I'll happily burn in Hell. God gave me a brain and I used it to the best of my ability and concluded that he didn't exist. If he chooses to punish me for that, then I wouldn't want to reside in his Kingdom anyhow.

^amen.

Yup. I'll agree with that, as well...well said, St. Seneca.

Agrees with the two above... lines up behind st. seneca. One more follower and we'll have tax exempt status. Your thoughts and your name however seem to be at odds. =)

Has anyone found the oxymoron in DL's post ?

That was quite well put Seneca.

No, but I found the moron three posts below his....

InSiDeR...you've been posting such things after DL now, for awhile...either take it to mail...or leave it. Grinding axes here...is a no-no. Got it?

Let's continue the thread...

well said, St Seneca.... i liked my sarcastic approach more though.

genis, I rather enjoyed your post as well.

NoJive, I am actually ordained with the Universal Life Church and became a Saint with them. I only had to sucker 15 other people into becoming ordained.

They didn't require that I profess a belief in anything so there really isn't a conflict there. I have even performed 5 marriages already.

insider - that's kinda the point. thanks for pointing out the obvious again.

WS, why the grief?

I just found it mildly amusing that DL, being the not believer he is, using amen, to be sort of ironic. I didn't mean any harm but whatever.

Why the grief? Because as WS said, you've been running around doing this after my posts quite a bit lately, and in each case it's either yet another failed attempt to catch me (or other people) in some sort of blunder or hypocrisy, or blatantly pointing out the obvious.

You seem to have a huge need to try to show yourself as more intelligent than the people around you , or to expose them somehow....it doesn't make sense and you fail miserably every time.

So stop. For your own sake.

=)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-02-2003).]

Jestah was right about you... Carryon then.

A prize for whoever spots the identity of the person who knocked this thread off the rails into Offtopicville.

InSiDeR: Do you even know what an oxymoron is? I see an ironic juxtaposition and I'm sure there is a technical term for it but oxymoron......?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Quite aware as a matter of fact.

"jestah was right about you"

uh...oh. yeah. ok.



Now that you've once again proven my words, maybe try to re-read them so that you understand them.

ok kid?

(and for the record, if you were "quite aware" of what an oxymoron is, you would have chosen a different term for what you were attempting to convey)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-03-2003).]

I know we have an official "read the FAQ" graphic.

We need an official "Thread Hijacked" graphic.

Any takers?

How's that?

Um yea.

St. Seneca.
I don't know for sure, but I don't think you would go to hell for not believing in God. If that's a sin, well I wouldn't know. But in reality it's not. I think the only way you go to hell, if it exists, is if you do something you believe to be wrong. If popular society says it is wrong, or the bible, well that is not your, or my concern. What matters is that you follow your own heart. If you think it is ok to kill bugs, then kill them. If you think it is wrong, then don't. I believe every thing in heaven, or should we say, the afterlife, is based on individual beliefs.

As far as an afterlife existing. I am almost positive it does, in some form. We have this electromagnetic energy that exists around our bodies and through our brains. I am pretty sure that when we die, this energy continues to live on with our memories stored within it.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

Hmm....Jesus healed people, and so did Rasputin healed the child of Czar.....is Jesus really son of god? there is no historical records, only in bible, he has risen.....ok....Jewish say he was just another prophet [makes more sense]......heck Moses also did miracles.....well, it seems bible is not perfect at all, the law of bible is not perfect becouse it was written by a man like any of us...well I think religeons are made to explain unexplainable.......but through time all those miracles had been explained, ofcourse not all, there is a lot more we have to catch up.....what I seem to believe that mind is such a powerful thing, it can make anything happene as long as you believe in it.....
There was some dude in Brazil who believed in Jesus so much that the hole in his hand opened up and did not stop bleeding....well but hands of Jesus were not pierced..it was more below his hands, between arms and hands....

Dont get me wrong...religeons do give a lot of good value to people....cuz mayority of people are dumb....but overall they are lame exusise to something unexplainable.....would god ever wanted as to be that stupid and pointless, to live without questioning reallity, just believe in miracles and stuff?
and say...God made it.....well I dont know....

Gilbert, so if I thought that it was not immoral to go around killing everyone that I meet, God would not damn me for doing so? I've got to buy a lot more guns.

How about ripping open pregnant women and eating their unborn chidren? If I don't have a problem with that, God won't either?

Your theory disagrees with thousands of years of religious doctrine and taken to its extreme, I believe that even you would disagree with it. Under your plan, Hitler is enjoying the rewards of Heaven as we speak.

Yes, that is true. But even Hitler probably thought it was wrong, deep down inside, to do what he did.

And yes, despite its morbidity, I still feel that it is true.

Taken to the extreme I would still agree with it, because I feel that deep down inside no one thinks it is Ok to murder another person. They may say they think it is Ok, they may strive to convince other people that it is ok, but deep down inside, when they are confronted by the eternal God who knows all lies, they will spill their guts and will pay for what they did.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

I'm with St. Senica on this one...(hoboy, it's starting to become a habit...yikes!)

What about in tribes where it was not only ok to 'murder' someone, but required? Where counting cou on your enemy was a thing of pride? Where parts of the defeated enemy were displayed, as a matter of pride? You are forgeting, that in warrior-like societies, murder (and killing) are not only commonplace, but the mark of a warrior.

No, I think you are looking at the whole picture a bit too narrowly...i.e. from your perspective.

And what about war? Killing (and murder) is still the same, regardless of how it is labeled.

Then if they thought it was Ok, than they are going to heaven, or wherever they believe.

I am saying that it all boils down to individual perspectives. What you believe to be true, is true for you as an individual, but not necessarily for a society. How else would it work? I mean every human does not have access to a set standard way of living, so therefor whatever your personal beliefs are, that is what carries over and effects your afterlife.

It can be no other way.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

"...whatever your personal beliefs are, that is what carries over and effects your afterlife."

and what if your beliefs--yours, mine, anbodys, everybodys, personal, societal, or ortherwise--has absolutely nothing to do with it ?

hahaha at this thread

~wherever you go, there you are~

What do all religious beliefs have in common? What is it that unites us in a common bond?

Actually, Gilbert has a valid point and the subjective viewpoint is one many philosophers have tried. Descartes for one tried filter out all external influences and see what he was left with.

Now, that's not to say that the subjective view is wrong, but rather that it offers insights not available with the objective view. Also, there are so many problems inherent in trying to determine an objective view that the subjective view looks like a good alternative.

Ultimately, in a way, he is right. If we are all judged at the end of the world, then it is what you believe that will count, and not what everyone else believes. No one else will be there to stand in your place, and you will have to account for your actions. If it's a choice you made knowingly, then you can at least accept your fate with quiet dignity, be it good or ill.

*nods at ettie*

ok then (stops laughing, but still smiling)

~on being "born again"

~born with water
~born of blood
~born by the Spirit
~born from above

Biblically speaking, born again should be translated as born from above; above, meaning heaven (or afterlife or, valhalla or etc...) where God is.
*thinks*
God is love and love casteth out fear.
*thinks*
Fear and hell are for those who aren't truly seeking God. (whatever hell might turn out to be)
*thinks*
So, God is to be found through love.
*thinks*
Many have been misguided. Many have had no guide at all.
*thinks*
Love will find a way.

yet, there is a clear distinction between what you and gilbert say, silence.

for i agree with you, but not with him.

i do not believe that pluralism is a valid construct - it is merely a overly tolerant, 'easy way out'.

you cannot say "what's true for you is true for you, and i'll go and find my own truth, thankyou very much."

jesus claims to be the way to heaven. Therefore, if his way is true, then all others are false. and if one or more other possibilities are true, then jesus lied, and his way is not a possibility.

many other religions also claim to be the only true belief. As such, a key component of their religion is that theirs is the only possibility - this cannot then coexist with other religious beliefs when 'the time' comes.