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Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 12-26-2002 15:49

Whether or not what I am about to say justifies the existence of a whole topic, I don't know, but I didn't want my subtle rage to veer a different and otherwise valid topic further off course. I've read posts before similar to what I believe I am about to say, but I can't help but get it out for myself.

I'm feeling myself becoming increasingly bitter when I visit the Asylum. The rampant idiocy that's spreading is turning me sour. I'm sick of people not listening. I'm sure lack of immaturity fuels this and I should have patience, but that patience is dwindling. (I'll say right up front that I'm not talking about a particular person; there are several here and you know who they are.)

People asking questions that are too broad and then blowing up because we didn't give them all the answers they think we should spend all of our time spelling out for them. People repeatedly blathering on in new topics about nonsensical crap and being upset that we don't indulge them. People replying just to hear themselves type, when they have dick to contribute. ("I just saw XYZ movie, but I didn't understand ABC part of the plot...anyone get that?" Reply: "I didn't see it, but I heard it was great.") People turning fresh topics to their own irrelevant subjects. ("Hey, this thread about a national speed limit reminds of a movie I just saw...anyone else see Cannonball Run? Wow, that Burt Reynolds hasn't done much, has he?") People jumping on others when they didn't understand what the hell those people were saying in the first place, then refusing to believe they may have misunderstood, subsequently yammering on in their defense instead of shutting their mouths and working to understand what everyone else is trying to tell them.

There are people I wish would just go away, but this is not my kingdom and I don't have the right or the arrogance it would take to tell them they should leave. Wouldn't do any good, anyway. I should probably just ignore them, but I'm sure some of you can understand how hard that gets. Don't misunderstand me; I'd love for them all to stay if they could just clam up long enough to make the effort to learn something. But they don't, or won't. The Internet, and apparently the Asylum, are their personal playgrounds and servants of information and look out if they don't get what they want. To them, there are no consequences and no responsibilities.

I had intended to take a break from the Asylum for a while, but for some reason I can't help but keep my mouth shut lately.

>Deep Breath<

I could keep going on, but I know enough to realize it wouldn't do any damn good...

Unusual Texas travel. (A little Google bombing doesn't hurt.)

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Brisbane, Australia
Insane since: Apr 2001

posted posted 12-26-2002 16:24

I hear yah loud and clear.

Been round the block one to many times and now I'm just too jaded. I've been paying this some thought lately and well, for me at least, it's somethng that happens in all areas of my life. The other day I dressed someone down for telling a story that took 5 minuites when I could have told it better in 30 seconds, and this wasn't an online thing, not was it one of my friends, it was someone I'd just recently met.

So, as you'd expect, he doesn't like me much anymore but why should I give a shit, If he'd learnt to trim the fat from his verbal ramblings then there'd be no problem. Honstly I'm not being that harsh here, with the context of the story and knowing this person's backgorund somewhat he should have been up to muster but he wasn't and well, I shouldn't have to stand around and swallow is bullshit now should I.

Should I?

Have I turned into a bitter and jaded person?

Do I or should I care even if the previous question is true?

These all all question I've been asking myself lately. Then I remembered some people who've done similar things to me before because, lets face it, we were all completly full of shit at some stage of our lives. I was miffed at the time but I got over it when I realised how much of an ass I was trying so hard to be. In a way I admire those people; they helped me trim off some social fat and make me a better person. Additionally I've become really good freinds with a lot of those people.

So fuck it. I'll be as hash as I want to be and you can thank me later. Unless of course, you'd prefer to be a blind fool and never listen to those scornfull comments that oh so often fly your way. Then you can be a moron for the rest of your life and I'll continue to dislike you in numerious ways.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 12-26-2002 16:28

" I'm sick of people not listening."
Would your life be fulfilled if they did listen?

I've always had a problem with those who don't read the entirety of the posts and subsequent replies before "contributing" to a thread, but your world shouldn't stop because some idiot feels like trying his/her hand at being a superior intellect for five seconds.

Change doesn't come easily to people, but topical discussion imparts your view which just might leave a lasting impression in the back of some minds.
The topic was obviously interesting enough for those in it to have participated, it must be something they have thought about in depth or would like to moreso.
Patience is indeed an asset when asserting any opinion or alternate view.

"People replying just to hear themselves type, when they have dick to contribute."
And then some people are just bored out of their skulls and use this as a stimulus, looking for a reaction, any reaction.
What can I say, there is a lot of spam in the world where freedom of speech reigns, all you can do is try your best to block it or ignore it.
One thing You should never try is to strAighteN out a poster who is obviously lookiNg for Any reaction, rather tHan trying to gain a person's view or knowledge.
Telling them they're an idiot once or twice may be okay, but once they've had time to change and haven't, it's just time to ignore them.
Any more acknowledgment of them is just rewarding their behavior, and strengthens their resolve.

Taking breaks from the Asylum or any forum is a good idea anyway.
It is only recreation after all, and a bit of a community support for those seeking web or other tech knowledge.

Don't leave for too long, though. I'd hate to lose a fellow Texan.

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Brisbane, Australia
Insane since: Apr 2001

posted posted 12-26-2002 16:41

Genis, nice points, but it does open up a bunch of other questions, like why people seek acknowledgement when they haven't contributed anything.

And the bit about ingoring people... I think the beef wes has (at least I have it) is that things actually get to that stage in the first place. I don't want to ingore anyone, I just want them to wake up or shut up. Is that really too much to ask?

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 12-26-2002 16:50

No, but asking that of an obvious thread hijacker would become your own exercise in idiocy.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-26-2002 18:15

wes .. well said .. very well said .. ignorance is bliss is it not?

genis .. well said as well .. but in wes comments I don't feel IMHO .. that he isn't welcoming the change or new "inmates" .. I think like many older fokes that frequent this place every day .. seeing or opening "fluff" posts is getting redundant and well turning this place into a rather boring place .. but then when questions are asked and they are pretty obvious .. to the olders that we would think "hey, find it yourself we did and it wasn't that hard to do" we would react in the same way .. ie .. for me when I first got photoshop .. the first thing I did was play with all the functions .. do searching on tutorials and downloaded new brushes and fonts .. and played played played .. that's really the only way to learn a new toy .. I know you know that or I would hope you do .. but these new fokes IMHO are asking flat out questions .. that just SCREAM .. "so show me how to work with photoshop" .. I'm sorry .. but no thanks .. been there done that .. do it yourself .. I accept change .. but I don't accept stupidity and maybe other older inmates feel the same way

but it hurts to ignor people .. I don't like doing it because I feel everyone has something to say .. but stupidity is a growing trend around new recent inmates .. and that sucks .. I'm sure one or two will make it out ok .. but time will tell that story no

I'm just being patient .. first time I've really opened my mouth to the subject .. thanks wes for opening yours

.::. cEll .::. 513

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-26-2002 18:20

to put myself plan and simple

the internet is a vast endless world of knowledge .. the door is theirs to open not ours .. explore it's vastness by yourself but if you can't find something or if you haven't looked hard enough keep looking .. I never ask a question unless I can't find the answer on the net .. then I ask here

hmmmmm .. as I would say and many others would say


.::. cEll .::. 513

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 12-26-2002 19:43

Genis - while you have some good points, I really think that the issue you are addressing is a vastly different one than Wes is talking about.

Part of Wes' point of view, I think, stems also from having been around so long, and seeing the true potential of this place.

Knowing the potential of something, and watching it slowly devolve is a sad and frustrating thing. Make no mistake that the Asylum has in fact lessened in it's greatness. That doesn't mean that it is not still a great place. That deosn't mean that general trends can't be turned around.

But there are, as Wes has said, a number of people who's lack of contribution coupled with a preponderence of posts equals a very succint lowering of the mean quality here.

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: *land
Insane since: Nov 2000

posted posted 12-26-2002 20:08

I have pages and pages of dialogue I'd like to add to this thread...
but I think most of the things have been said before.

I agree with you Wes.
I agree with you to the point where I was reading your post and thinking I had wrote it.
DL, as usual, has said the things that I would comment as well.
I don't really agree with some of genis' thoughts... but I'm not going to dwell on it.
Personally, I don't think the Asylum is near as strong as it once was. I also don't see it running into any major hiccups that would bring it to a hault. It's rolling... on a slow decline that flattens out enough sometimes that we don't even notice.

I've no reason to lie... the thought of just not returning here has been very fresh in my mind lately.
Not even a break..... just a complete 'goodbye'.
It's not that I think there are better places out there..... because I don't think there's many. I just don't know how much longer I want to deal with some of this.
I bring it onto myself to visit. One of these days I think I might just stop.
This place certainly has provided an avenue for learning new things in my life... and brought me plenty of good laughs...
But with some people gone that were rather important to me... and attitudes changed... and the ever-growing population of people that aren't genuine or care....
I don't know if I want to be a part of it.

Although topics have spun in this direction before..
I'm glad you brought this up Wes...
I didn't have the energy to do it myself.


Maniac (V) Inmate

From: out of a sleepy funk
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 12-26-2002 20:47

uh oh, Wes is cranky, something's truly wrong. =)

I find it interesting, the evolution of the Asylum, as a little microcosm of the WWW. Back in the day it was mostly older geeks, then started coming the folks that picked up the internet bug in a major way, then the kids that all got computers cuz they're the wave of the future kicked in...

If it's like society it should eventually get some kinda age/maturity/interests seperation thing going on. I'll be staying around just to see it all unfold personally, little bit of history going on here, Social Stodies 101 even.

So you grumpy old curmudgeons that love web design, development, art and webrelatedcoolstuff are just railing against the youth that wanna turn this place into a shoutbox? I see, rail on! They'll take over I tell you!!! Maybe we should elect a smackdown officer who's able to hand out "special rankings" and be given free reign to change little turd's titles from "Lunatic" to "Punk Ass Bitch" or something? Gotta be a solution. I for one love watching Doc gently caress these situations, he's truly a master of micromanagement. I just wonder if this is becoming a macromanagement issue? Like I said tho, time will tell, and I'll be watching and riding the emotional roller coaster. weee.


Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 12-26-2002 20:52

Good point..

By the way, did you see Lord of th rings, I didn't quite understand what exactly hobbits are. Can anyone clear this up?

Just kidding...

Good point there, nice, Genis

And ah, by the way, I'm not a programmer, I just like the philosophy section, so if that pisses anyone off, well...ahhh.sorry... And anyway, I guess I am sort of a programmer, I made my own webpage and all, without using any sort of html maker software or anything, so..I guess..well..screw it.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-26-2002).]

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 12-26-2002 21:08

I think we all feel like that sometimes when the annoying hook gets under our skin and worries away until don't feel quite so charitable to questions and questionners that you might previously have humoured. I agree with JKMabry that the Doc might have been able to iron over these creases and I do quite like the idea of giving some of the pain in the asses a dunce's cap to wear (I quite favour 'Fly in the ointment' but pos. 'Annoying Ahole' might be more effective). I do hate to think that this place is getting worse (I like to think that the new quality inmates more than balance the morons that sneak in too but perhaps that just doesn't work). I do know people who don't post here very often, if at all, anymore and I suppose the more idiots that come through the door the more this process will increase. We are all busy and if we have to waste our time dealing with the Tool School then we might just start finding more productive things to do

I'm not sure what the answer is - its probable that anywhere else you go will just be worse. Should we shut the doors and only let anyone if they apply and we approve them? Should we take a knife to the roster? It would seem a shame to just shrug and let things keep spiralling down out of control..........

GN: Well hobbits are..... Ahhhhhh - you sneaky devil


FAQs: Emperor

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 12-26-2002 22:37

All good points so far. While I wouldn't like to admit it, the average level of skill has decreased. This is clearly illustrated when you ask any Asylumite who's been around for a bit to give you a list of names. The list will contain almost all the same names, and I can almost gaurantee that they will be old members.

In my time here, I have seen very few new members who have been able to contribute significantly. But, that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. And, I'm sure the trend will reverse itself.

One of the factors is, of course, the reputation the Asylum has. Word gets around and people start visiting the Asylum more frequently.

I am also a bit tired of having to babysit, and responding to people who don't have a clue. The net is filled with bullshit boards and l33t d00dz and morons and, worst of all, people who can't use punctuation and grammar to save themselves. I believe this part irks me the most. It's like trying to talk to somebody who can't speak english (international members please insert the language of your choice). The bad part is that this not due to an honest ignorance of the language, this is the misconstrued idea that spoken word translates directly into written word. Grammar is your friend. Punctuation should be your lover. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to understand what the fuck you're talking about.

These days, all I have to say is:

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: West Texas
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-27-2002 00:17

As one of the "newbs" that have been mentioned in at least couple of the above posts, I'll try and add something of worth here... hopefully...

I've only been here for a few months now, so I honestly couldn't say one way or the other whether or not the overall knowledge in this place has dropped from when it was newer. However, from reading this topic and a few others, it certainly seems that the talent level has kinda fell off a bit overall. Because there are more and more "newbs" showing up? Because more and more of the upstanding inmates are leaving? Because the ridiculous/pointless topics are becoming more prevalent?
Who knows? Probably a little of everything. I don't know for sure about here, but just about everywhere else (on the WWW or in real life), things come and go, morale rises and falls, attitudes flare and people get over it, ridiculousness and seriousness both are common. I hope silence is right in saying "I'm sure the trend will reverse itself." This is a great place, with volumes upon volumes of useful information, and I only wish I could have found it sooner. It would be a real shame to see all this fall apart and become another "bullshit board" as silence so aptly described.

To quote silence one more time, "In my time here, I have seen very few new members who have been able to contribute significantly."
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I know for a fact I fall right into that category. Why? Well, if there is ever anything here that I feel educated enough in to contribute appropriately, I do. However, there are so many people here that can simply go circles around me without even trying, be it in coding, graphics, or anything else that pops up around here, there's very few times I have much to add to their comments, other than just agreeing with them.

So, like I said, I don't know about anyone else, but I know I'm just a student around here and am not trying to be anything more or less, and will without a doubt, always be a student here. I understand that this place is based on the sharing of knowledge, and whenever the topic of particle physics shows up (as I think I've seen 2 threads that headed that way) I'll be there to drop my two cents in. Coding? Graphics? I know enough to get started and where to look when I have trouble and to ask here when all else fails and something's got me stumped.

If I just had to take a guess, I'm not the only one here like this (I see Gilbert posted something similar).

I know this post doesn't apply much to what Wes said, but this thread seemed most appropriate for that brief interlude... BTW, if I am ever guilty of these things everyone is venting about, please, someone drop me a line on Q or an email or something, because so far, I agree entirely about what's been said, and well, I don't want to be too much of a hypocrite...

-- Unoriginal Cell 693 --

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: A graveyard of dreams
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 12-27-2002 01:04

I agree with what has been said here so far. Even though I haven't been active for very long I've been lurking in these halls for quite some time and it feels sad that some of the older members are leaving us. Hopefully they will return later sometime like other people who left us have done...

As a new member I have to agree with what Lord_F says. I'm here trying to learn from those knowing more than me. I try to help out where I feel I can do a good job, but most of the time other people better than me at the subject gets there before me and I don't have anything to add. There is nothing wrong with this since I then get the opportunity to learn from someone better. But it might seem like I don't contribute anything since I rarely feel like I have anything to add to what has allready been said.

Obviously there are also those who don't come here to learn, as has been pointed out. I think there will always be people like that around. Probably more now than before, since almost every little kid has a computer nowadays. The only solution I can see to it, short of banning people, is to ignore those who only come here for attention. If we ignore them they will probably go away after a while. The only reason for them to be here is to get attention, and since they get it they stay around. Deny them this 'pleasure' and they might leave.

"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"

[This message has been edited by Veneficuz (edited 12-27-2002).]

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 12-27-2002 03:14

Actually, I should point out that there are several new members with amazing potential. In fact, without naming names, some new members had a tough time at first but are starting to pick up the ball so all is not lost.

Also, I've seen some lively discussions here in the Philosophy from some new members particularly. In fact, I spent a lot of my time in the Philosophy section when I first got here. So, hope is still there.

Happy Posting.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 12-27-2002 07:14

I think Veneficuz and I see eye to eye on the subject of ignoring ignorance.

To me, it seems, there are only two things to be gained from this type of forum: knowledge or attention.

If the only thing you feel like conveying to a person in a thread is "Stop being dumb. It is obvious you aren't trying to gain anything intellectually out of this. We don't want your kind here."

It's probable they are just looking for attention and by posting that thought, you are only fueling the fire.

Denying them your acknowledgement of their existence is the best possible practice.
Especially here, where only words exist, and the absence of them leaves the coldest and darkest of voids.

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: the Asylum ghetto
Insane since: Oct 2002

posted posted 12-27-2002 07:19

but, as been said previously, i don't know enough to contribute anything worth while...yet! i haven't posted any "worthy?" questions either, due to the fact that if i search i can usually find it in here somewhere. for *me* as of late, it's really just been kinda "conversational" posts. i definately look forward to the day when i see a question and actually am confident enough to answer lol
i do understand where the aggrivation comes from though, even i've felt it towards other newbies here, but like someone has previously said, if you ignore them, they'll go away. i definately think it's just a "stage" that every board goes through and will pick up again.
michael, i know i would hate to see you pack up and never return...though purly for selfish reasons. i learn alot from you (even though ya don't know it) and i'm sure this place wouldn't be at all the same if the older inmates were to do the same. i do hope it doesn't have to come to that.
this is just a'll pass

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: A, MI, USA
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 12-27-2002 07:53
i definately look forward to the day when i see a question and actually am confident enough to answer lol

I hear you there. I often find myself in the middle of adding a reply to a thread, and realize that I really don't have much to say - and will just hit the back button. I stick to what I know (I don't help much here as far as advice/tips/help goes, but I do around other places).

The asylum, for me, has been mostly a place to learn. I'm one of those odd graphics/coding hybrids cloned in the labs downstairs, and I'm hardly more than intermediate at both. From watching & listening to artists like DL, DG, VP, and WJ (just to name a few - there are so very very many more names I can add to that list), or listening to & checking out the source of coders like Ini, PS, or Slime (again, just to name a few), it often feels as though I've learned more than I can remember. What's even more is I still have much to learn.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but thanks to you all. It's definitely tedious at times, but there are people out here who do listen. And as far as the others go - fuck 'em. If people are unwilling to learn, then it is probably better that they don't learn - ignorance is bliss.

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 12-27-2002).]

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 12-27-2002 11:54

Hmmm...this topic is...well, it's been on my mind, and in my thoughts, of late...I do remember, when I first joined...heady days those were...I actually refrained from joining here for a long time...and spent most of my 'beginning' days, at the GN. After aquiring a few...skills, I thought that I was ready for the forum here. Well...pride goes, before the fall. Hehe...I got royally burnt. The difference then, to the difference I see here, nowdays? I listened. I got slammed by Taxon. And I had earned it. But I listened, to what he said...

I don't see that happening, at least not much, see, I wanted to get better, to increase my skills...I was willing to listen. I was willing to take the criticism, could actually see how that was making my skills better. I first came here, because I thought I was 'good enough'. I soon learned, that I had to rapidly learn more...and not just that. I learned, that the learning process doesn't really stop...that here, I could get better, and better...heady days, indeed. I am not new here...but then, I'm not really one of the 'old ones', either. I remember those first months, reading through posts, forums, and the Archives...I remember when twItch^ and DG were regulars here...I remember reading threads...and learning from them. I remember when Doc Cyber clashed with the Asylum...and I remember many posts, from 'old ones' saying farewell...and feeling the...loss. The loss of knowledge, that I might not have access to.

It seems to me, that the forums, especially the PS forum, was much different then. The criticisms were much harsher...and almost scared me away, sometimes. I remember the feeling of...well, fear, for lack of a better word...(twItch^, or DG could say it better *sigh*), waiting for the replies to something I had posted...waiting to learn. There wasn't much 'Oohs and Aahs' back then...or 'Oh, that's nice!'...instead there was a lot of, 'Well, your graphic has x and y problems, they need to be fixed! Do it, now!'...these type of comments challenged me, to become better...often, I was ridiculed...yes, but I also got better much faster...but then, I soon learned that there was no reason to have a 'big head', or ego here...there were those here, with skills far beyond mine...sometimes, I actually felt...depressed, at the incredible level of these skills...and where mine were. But it also gave me something to aim for...always, the advice, and criticisms, came from those who had paid their dues...they knew what they were talking about. I actually felt honored, that they were even replying to something I had posted...and giving me advice, were willing to help me get better. I really liked the lack of 'blowing wind up someones bum' attitude that was here. The advice was usually sound, and realistic. I could rely on it. It was truthful, and there is no better mirror, than the one that reflects the truth...harsh, yes. But truthful. I really miss that, these days...I really do not like the trend, that is now...present. Oohs and Aahs, flowery to the is anyone supposed to get better, with replies like that? How are those, who have real skills, supposed to better themselves, when everyone is saying 'Man, that's nice!' 'I wish I could do that!'...eventually, they stop posting...because they don't get the replies that they need...that is, 'well, that could be better...or that, here...could be done so...'

So yes, I would agree that the level of skill here has...slumped. It's no wonder, when the pressing of someone to get better, and their positive reaction to that pressure, is missing...I have seen some really talented members here attempt to do this...and new members just shrug off the advice...rare is the new member, that takes the advice, and goes happens, but it has become rare. Mostly, we get over-inflated egos, or those who entirely overreact to criticism, hurt egos, if you will...and sometimes, they other members, who have very little, to no skills whatsoever. 'Don't worry about what he/she said, I like what you did/made/posted' sort of thing...sickening. Many of the very tatlented members that we have, or had, here, finally got sick of trying...why try, when the advice is ignored? Why try, when the n00b spits back resentful replies? Why try, when the person in question is not the least bit interested in getting better...more, they are...very rude, and immature, in their...posturing? Where many lack the common decency to even realize, that someone is just trying to help...or just downright ignore courteous forum protocol? 'Hey, I asked a question, and you a**es don't even give me a reply! What kind of board is this?' Well, yes, that is the question, isn't it? What kind of board is this...and what has it become? More important, what will it become? Used to be, the reputation of the Asylum alone kept many n00bs out...the mere threat of harsh treatment...the certain knowing, that one would get royally raked over the coals, by those who knew what they were talking about...and don't dare say anything to the contrary...or your innards would be laying about the grounds...used to be, someone would introduce themselves (well, not always, but still...more than these days...), and immediately duck, waiting to get steamrolled...nowadays, one gets a lot of 'I am so and so, and if you don't like it, you can go to hell!'. Ah, okkk...then. At times like that, I really miss the scorching reaming of the person in question...*sigh*. Used to be, one could say 'Fuck off'...and it often was. Or one of the better 'flamers' would screw that perp royally...nowdays, it's just so much more civilized...*sigh*. And when one of the older members does happen to 'vent' on some n00b, he/she gets broadsided by other members...'How could you do that to the poor n00b?'...

So yeah, Wes...sometimes, I do think along those lines...but I'm still here. And I'll be staying. For all the problems, for all the...junk, inbetween the rare members that are worth their weight in salt...there is a need for members to stay here...and I still like it here. There are still reasons to come here...'The body may be barely breathing, but the heart of the Asylum is still beating...' As long as that is true, I'll stay...

I like many of the members here...some old, some like me (neither old or new), some new. The rest are just chaff. I like many of the interesting changes in the Asylum itself...the FAQ, PS Pong, the Sig comp, the Monthly Make it..., the Formal Debate...I enjoy posts from some of the older members...esp. Bugs, in the Phil forum. I've learned a lot from Bugs...he's gone a path that I have not, and is usually well informed...and if he doesn't know an answer, normally he attempts to find horizons have been broadened, by much that he has posted. I especially like the fact, that he normally posts very well...and is most informative. Occasionally, one of the 'older' members drops by...always interesting. It makes me feel good, when I can help someone out on the board...and though it is sometimes a pain, also defending this place that I have learned to call home. The only advice that I can give, is to stay, and make a diference. I normally like your posts, Wes, and you have contributed greatly here. So stay...and share the wealth. The heart is still beating...

I think this , from F1_error, pretty much sums it up

I'm proud to be a member here, and I for one never thought this forum was in danger in any way. The Asylum is growing and like anything it experiences growing pains from time to time. And changes will happen to accept the growth. Not everyone will like the changes, and we may lose some members to those changes. But change will happen, this is a dynamic and chaotic system. We cannot stop these changes, the best we (as a group) can do is manage those changes to be as painless and worthwhile as possible.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 12-27-2002).]

Rameses Niblik the Third
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: From:From:
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 12-28-2002 12:49

Here here.

We can't get too distressed because of problem people in our lives. Unless we live by ourselves on a desert island with no phone line, we will always encounter them. Logic dictates we ignore them, so they eventually disappear (this has failed in the cases of Jim Carrey, Adam Sandler, Saddam Hussein, Ali G...)

In the case of the Asylum, they just need to settle in.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: columbus, ohio, usa
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-28-2002 17:33

I hear you Wes and Michael. It does seem that there has been an increase in useless or idiotic posts of late. Several of our newer members seem unable to listen or even form coherent posts.

Don't let my post count fool you. I've been lurking here for years, picking up information and tips as I went, before I joined. All I have to offer is these two thoughts.

1. These things seem to run in cycles.

2. It is easy to burn out when you deal with the public. After awhile all you notice is the fools.

Please don't leave.

Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: KC, KS
Insane since: Nov 2002

posted posted 12-28-2002 20:39

All of you have made good points about the faults of new members entering the Asylum but I see another problem that underlies all of that.

A great number of current members seem to take great pleasure from perpetuating the negativity of a thread rather than steering it in a direction where it can become something positive. Take a look at this thread for instance. The first 5 posts (OK, DL's was somewhat helpful, so we'll say the first 4 posts) were pointless, sarcastic, and did nothing to steer this person in a positive direction. Some of you revel in pointing out the defensive stance that someone takes when confronted with posts like these but take a minute and ponder what your reaction would be to such remarks. I know that my first reaction would probably be a defensive one.

Ignore the assholes and they'll go away. If you continue to bicker with them pointlessly it only fuels whatever fire it is that drives them to this kind of behavior. If you don't feed the fire, it will die off slowly.

As for the newbies, have some patience people. Point out a FAQ to them, tell them to Google, ask them to post what they have so far. Part of the learning process is learning how to approach someone for help. Most people out there are only criticized at work or at school where the critiques are a certainty rather than something you have to seek out.

As a last resort, just keep your pipes shut. One of the nice things about this kind of bulletin board system is that if a thread annoys you, there are several ways to exit from that thread in a hasty manner.

We can't change the people who come here, we can only change how we deal with them and obviously the status quo is not working.

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Brisbane, Australia
Insane since: Apr 2001

posted posted 12-30-2002 06:49


This got me thinking about my own entrance into the asylum some years back. My 2nd post was to, in a way, flame twitch about web standards. I was new, I was arrogant and I was downright stupid in acting the way I did but did I get flamed in return?

No. Not a single negative post was directed towards me. Instead, twitch took the time to send me an email and we had a jolly discussion about the issues I had with the standards and such forth... Sent me an email?... Some arrogant twat with 2 posts under his belt. We sorted out our issues and well, all was good.

Now that I think back I doubt I'd do the same thing if the situation was reversed. I'd probably just slap the arrogant prick down and write him/her off as a moron, maybe even lash out with harsh words in a hope that he/she would go away and never come back.

Definatly something I'll have to keep in mind next time I get narky at someone.

Side point, some people seem to come across completly differently when communicating in forums. Insider for one, whome I chat to on Q evey now and then, a nice bloke when I'm talking to him through chat apps but on the forum it all seems different. There are a couple of other people like this as well, mostly freinds in real life who seem like complete aliens when I read their journal pages. Maybe it's something about the static nature of message boards or maybe it's just me; maybe something about the way I precieve the kind of communication that's happening here.

Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 12-30-2002 23:20

Ugh...didn't mean to bow out of this discussion...been sick the last few days...kind of came out of nowhere. Hacking up the last of it, though...I think.

Didn't expect this kind of response to my rant, but I'm glad people were able to connect with it. The surge in impatience and immaturity around here, coupled with a growing number of people trying to mooch off my work and getting piss angry when I tell them no, has just been turning me bitter, I guess.

I don't plan to leave, because I enjoy the company here...not to mention I still need help with Javascript on occasion.

I suppose I'll just work on ignoring people. It'll be hard when they arrogantly present flawed arguments, but I'll just have to struggle through it, I guess. And maybe we can all work on making our first few replies to new Asylumites a little more patient and helpful.

>cough cough hack cough<

Okay, I've got to get some more rest. Keep talking.

Unusual Texas travel. (A little Google bombing doesn't hurt.)

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 12-31-2002 02:38

I'm guessing you have Post Nasal Drip.

small world, Texas.

Take Claritin-D. Oh man does it work like a charm.

Anyway, I don't mind arrogance with a flawed argument, I just hope for a point other than "everybody knows this is the case".

I mean it's expected for someone to be especially passionate about one topic or another, but unless they can back it up with something other than arrogance, like facts for instance, there really isn't a reason to reply to them, or anything left to argue really.

and remember... Claritin-D... works wonders... I'm on it now. Ah the clarity!
~ genis is handed a large bag of cash ~

Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 12-31-2002 20:40

Off-topic: Yeah, I'm taking Claritin now. My dad got a prescription refill before it went OTC and gave it to me, but it doesn't seem to be stopping the production of mucus.

I was going to go to work this morning, but despite going to bed at 8:30, I didn't fall asleep till 4:00 AM from hacking up all the crap draining into my lungs. (Incidentally, 4:00 AM is when I have to actually be at work.)

Unusual Texas travel. (A little Google bombing doesn't hurt.)

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Greensboro, NC USA
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 12-31-2002 22:50

oooo - Wes, you got the Crud... I just got over it myself. Nasty bit this year. Antibiotics don't help, so don't bother unless you think you have a secondary infection. I used Afrin with some success for my sinuses, just be sure you don't use it longer than 5 days, it causes a nasty dependence after that. But it works for drying you up a little... At least you can get some oxygen while you're using it...

Back on topic... As a relative newbie here, I can say I've both given and taken a couple of good flames and am none the worse for wear because of it. On occasion, I've sat back and watched a thread degenerate into an ego battle between both the new"er"bies and those who've got post counts in the several hundreds to thousands. The current state of affairs isn't all because of new members.
There have been many times when I've wanted to get involved in a thread just to have some involvement here, but hit the back button (as was said above) just because what I thought I had to say suddenly didn't seem worthwhile. But the people who use the forum are the ones who set the standards, and we're all responsible for our own reactions to other people's posts. You aren't required to respond. The newbies who don't know how to post properly, will get a quick lesson from the people who've been here, if those older folks will just take the upper hand and show them how and where to get the info they desperately need, with a little understanding about it. It's when they continue that a real problem results. That's when moderators should step up to the plate. Isn't that what they're there for?

Children learn by imitation. 'nuff said.

I get a lot out of this community as a whole. And I really enjoy being a part of it. It would be a complete shame if the most qualified people who give the most guidance were to decide it wasn't worth it anymore and up and go. The heart of the Asylum would leave with them. This place is about learning and sharing, right? So have some patience, and lead by example.

Bodhi - Cell 617

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-31-2002 23:12

I'm glad to hear that you aren't leaving, WES. I don't know you very well but you are very articulate and... well... mellow. I've felt the same way as you for a while and tried to take a break for a couple of weeks. it didn't work to say the least. I like it here and in my lurking I felt the Ire of many members here towards some of the more recent additions. My thoughts on this after reading through the many posts is that leaving because of the new blood in our midst will only contribute to the problem that you see. Perception is a fickle thing. The irritating "fluffy" posts are just more frequent and louder than the posts that have actual content. I dunno. I feel that it's all been said here already but I felt I should add my support. As "young" as I am in Asylum years I hope I haven't trod on anyones hopes for this place.

Mayhap the New Year will present some newly turned leaves? All the best to you all, See you around.


Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 01-02-2003 05:43

i have very little to add.

and i won't complain.

all i will say is that the asylum is a great place, yet it is also a small place.

each and every person can make a difference as to how the asylum is.

sometimes, a newcomer can make the place a little tiresome and aggravated.

michael can make the place productive, and helpful.

emps can make the place responsive and well educated.

izzay can make the place happy and peachy. (heh heh)

wes can make the place interesting, fun and just that much nicer to read.

and doc, well doc can just make the place.

i just named five names - and i'm sure we can all see the effects that these five people have had on the asylum. Then, if we add to these the likes of jamie, peter, stephen, mikey, suho, bob, max, slime, wj, tp, grumble, vp, ini, mahjqa, bugs, matt, pugs, steve, weadah, etc etc... we see that it is these people that make the asylum what it is. Not all of them as one big lump, each one of them individually. sure, i can look back and say that the place isn't what it used to be, but hey, it also didn't have a faq, or 2 hour turnaround on site evaluations, or dozens of webprojects....

every single person can make a difference to how this web community is. Every helpful thread, every pacifying post, each cheeky comment or contribution simply for comic relief can make the asylum more fun for everyone.

maybe every now and then, instead of complaining about how the asylum is, we should just check and see if we're doing our bit to add something constructive to the asylum.

[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 01-06-2003).]

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