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genis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 01-27-2003 04:45

continued from here

I don't know what WebShaman's problem was, but apparently his "justification" for shutting it down was that the discussion turned from the original topic.

So as he suggested, I have reopened the topic with a more suitable topic title.

Also, he seemed to note that only graphic people are allowed here (which I ceased to be, long ago), and I only like to talk. Which is somehow wrong in his opinion. Well whatever.

To continue this, I'll repost Emporer's post and then mine, and we can continue... okay

quote:
~sigh~I know I shouldn't but......

Yes technically (and I'm talking in a strictly taxonomic sense) races probably no longer exist but that in no way means that racial prejudice doesn't exist - we could call it ethnic prejudice if that makes you happier. And we could even go for perceived ethnic prejudice as you don't actually have to be of a specific racial grouping to have people act in a prejudicial manner - you just have to look/sound/dress like you do.

___________________
Emps

... and now mine.

quote:
[Emperor]
Yes, you are exactly right.

Although, I never argued that I thought prejudice did not exist, because it most certainly does.
I only argued that I was not prejudice, which those above cannot seem to accept from anyone apparently, including themselves.
(Even though they refuse to point out their own prejudicial leanings when asked.)

But at the root of racial prejudice is race, or percieved race.
And my argument, and what I believe is if we stopped perpetuating the myth of race by asking people to label themselves and relegate themselves to a faction, when checking a box, or applying for a student loan, or applying to a college, we could eventually wipe out the term.

As it is we've come so far since the time of Martin Luther King Jr., while still carrying the myth that race is an acceptable form of classification.
And yet far too many are still unwilling to let go of a race label, and so the myth still lives while we forget.

Until eventually we wind up back at square one, back at each other's throats, over hate based on a lie.

The more people who realize race doesn't exist, the more people who don't assign themselves that label, that mark of the beast, if you will, then the less people will get roped in by a racist agenda, seeking to separate us further.

If the majority of people refused to hold on to that wretched social construct, then the racist minority would find it mighty hard to recreate it in the minds of those unexposed to such a thing.

Don't you agree?

So there you have it.
Unless some further abuse of power stops this thread as well, I believe we can continue.

DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...

From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994

posted posted 01-27-2003 10:59

Hmm, given how the last thread spun a bit out of control (sensitive issue and all that), maybe this topic should be re-launched as a "Formal Debate"? Genis has his points, and several folks seem to disagree (I tried to catch up on the last thread, but deep philosophy makes my head hurt!) So, just for discussion, if this *was* a formal debate, what would be the topic? If genis espoused one side, what would it be, and what (also who) would be the opposition?

So! My suggestion would be to draw a specific line in the sand, and then launch a formal debate, it might help keep the noise and/or personalities out of the discussion. (THat can always go into a peanut gallery!=) What d'ya think?

Your pal, -doc-

genis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 01-27-2003 11:09

I personally felt the last thread was winding down after my response to Emperor had everything pretty much wrapped up.

He had mistaken my arguing point, I corrected him, then I stated my arguing point again, and asked if he agreed.

For the life of me, I can't even fathom what WebShaman's last post was supposed to mean, I could hardly decipher it.

However, if someone would like to argue (again) the point that race isn't a false term.
I'll take that.

Or if they'd like to argue (again) the point that everyone is prejudiced in some way, no matter who they are or what they think.
I'll also take that on.

Anybody goes, even WebShaman, so long as he promises not to shut it down if he doesn't like my point of view.

edit: I keep spelling Emps' name wrong. I should just stick with Emps.



[This message has been edited by genis (edited 01-27-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-27-2003 14:34
quote:
I can't even fathom what WebShaman's last post was supposed to mean, I could hardly decipher it.



Well, now you know how the rest of us felt after reading your posts.

It's nice to see that you start the next thread on exactly the same bullshit note pissy attitude that got the last one shut down genis, good show.

As was said in the last thread, it's simply not worth discussing this with you, as you don't seem to want to discuss, you want to argue insult people and twist words.

Formal debate? Hardly worthy of it in the light this topic has slid into.

And for the record, part of the mod's responsibility here is to help keep topics from getting out of hand. Whether or not anyone feels webshaman was right in that particular decision is irrelevant. Any other mod who felt he was not justified can re-open it. Obviously nobody felt that way.

So don't get your panties in a bunch over "abuse of power".



{edit for spelling}

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-27-2003).]

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-27-2003 16:07
quote:
I don't know what WebShaman's problem was, but apparently his "justification" for shutting it down was that the discussion turned from the original topic.



No problem...none at all. I was just doing my job. Nothing more, nothing less. Well, that, and holding my sides...but that's beside the point. You have your views, I have my views, we all have views. That's one of the things that I so dearly love about the Asylum. Sharing views. And lately, after considering some advice (you know who you are), I have definitely started to learn to see the funny side of things...and not to take myself so seriously...

As for

quote:
Unless some further abuse of power stops this thread as well, I believe we can continue.

We've been down that road before...again, you didn't listen...I have no real power. And if I really was to misabuse my duties you can be damned sure that the other Mad Scientists would be on me in nothing flat. So what 'power' are you talking about? Just because the thread got closed? I explained why...it went way off topic, and started getting out of hand...not to mention, it got hi-jacked. So, I closed it. And, as you can see, there is no 'power' involved...you can clearly start another thread, to present whatever you like (as long as it doesn't violate the Doc's rules). The only one with power on this board, is the Doc. Maybe you mean duties? You know, I once question Shi when she closed down a thread...that was awhile ago...not only did I overdue it a bit, but I also got slammed. Guess what? Since becoming a Mod, I have a lot more understanding for what she did. And what she was sometimes putting up with. Also, DL is right...if another Mod decided I did something wrong, or inappropriate, or were abusing my duties, they could easily open the thread...so relax...this isn't about you.

Would you like me to explain that further to you, or maybe use other words, or perhaps pictures? I have seen that you decided to get yourself a sig...one postive thing that came out of all this. I find that good. You will also notice, that I put up the Race question as a possibility for the Formal Debate...so you see, there is no problem here.

Somehow, you seem to view all this as a war, or something...why? This happened back then, after you first joined, and now again. Maybe you should think about why it keeps happening to you...it certainly is not taking place with a lot of others...why do you think that is? Frankly, I'm at a loss, as to your repeated reactions...but then, does that really matter? It would, I guess, if I was serious about it...but I'm not.

Have you ever considered that maybe changing the way you perceive how you are treated, and how you react, and present yourself, might lead to a better, more positive reaction? I'm just curious...

So rest assured, I have absolutely no interest in personally persecuting you. Or of abusing my duties. Or anything else along these lines. So carry on, please...


tomeaglescz
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 01-27-2003 17:37

i could but i wont...(comment on this)

But looks up at the title of the thread...looks down at the content.....


ahhh thats how ya spell pissing contest....

ok we back on track or what??? (or is this gonna be shut down because its going off track)

final thoughts on this....

Genis:If you want a thread to stay open, dont get into pising contests in the thread you started, if ya got a beef with somone take it to email, this thread is going down the toilet aswell as you cant seem to stop getting into a bitch fight....



silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 04:32

Taken from the last thread:

quote:
If you agree with my view or some of my points you can chime in with some applause, but abstaining from argument because someone might disagree fervently isn't exactly what my American upbringing has instilled in me, sorry



It's not so much abstaining because someone might disagree fervently, but the fact that there is not one argument you can come up with that is novel. It's all been said before, and most arguments of this nature usually denegrate into arguments over semantics.

Also, I would like to add that I agree with Webshaman and his reasons for closing the thread. I was finding it hard to keep track of everything in the clutter and the original topic had been played out halfway through the thread. I assure you, it is now way personal nor have the MadSci's ever acted in such a manner in my experience.


genis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 04:40

tom, you have to ask yourself... 'who started the bitch fight'?

The only thing I've ever done is state my views, correct people for misinterpreting my views, denounce personal attacks on my character, or argue various related points?

Since when is arguing a point wrong?
It's not.

It's just when WebShaman or DL-44 make an attack on my character, that I am not allowed to reply.
And If I do, they accuse me of fighting.

Just like when DL said "You're full of shit. plain and simple" and WebShaman praised him for that remark.

Or when WebShaman berated me, saying I started the fight, then closed the topic without allowing me to refute his claims.

Does that seem fair to you, Tom?
Please reread the thread, and come to a conclusion for yourself, and share your points with me.

If anyone would like to create a formal debate on who started the fire, I'll take you on in that as well.

Ah, there's a nice segue, now where did Doc say this should go, into a formal debate?

Well are there any takers are aren't there?

genis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 04:43

Yes, silence, closing because of clutter is in fact a fine reason, although it wasn't his stated reason.

But doing it after bashing a participant is not in fact a fine reason.

Wouldn't you agree?

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 08:49

Well. Genis, you've now posted 4 times...and three times, you mentioned my name directly, and once, indirectly. I thought you wanted to discuss the issue at hand...nad I never said anything at all about you 'starting' anything...other than this thread. However, you bring up the point

quote:
I feel a semantics war coming on concerning the labels 'liberal' and 'conservative' and possibly 'right' and 'left'.

labels suck.

there i said it.



This is where the topic started diverging...and this is where I stated my reason wfor closing the thread

quote:
And that's the whole point, I guess...we don't like to fight. And since we have wandered way off the topic, I think this one has reached it's end...sad, because it could have been really interesting...I really would have liked to discuss the racial theme further.

So, without further ado, I'm closing this one down. If you are really interested in discussing the racial theme, Genis, then I propose that you post a new thread devoted to such.

, especially this part

quote:
And since we have wandered way off the topic



I gave you an explanation...why are you still bitching? It seems more and more, that this is something personal for you.

I have already explained, that I am not remotely interested, personally.

You're making me start laughing, again...really, get over it...life goes on...and I hope this thread topic will, too...but it looks like it is going down the drain...your actions are just chasing people away from the topic. Refine your topic, drop all the other stuff, and get back to discussing it.

I have other things to do...don't you? You know, the Doc always suggested, when things got rather out of hand, to make a page...oh, something to let your creativity run wild. I suggest the same, here...or work some more on your sig...

Of course, you could just continue...I haven't had a good laugh today...always look for something positive...your choice.



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 01-28-2003).]

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 01-28-2003).]

genis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 11:43

I've always said you gave a reason, stop changing the subject.

Sure, you gave a reason... after this...

quote:
Hehe...man, that's killing me...so laughable. You run over your own points like a drunk man doing the white-line test...

And you still seem to think it's about fighting here, at the Asylum

and this...

quote:
But burning bridges, and trying to pick fights isn't helping you. And re-wording your original point, over and over and over again, not only is not helping, but it is wasting space...

... and this...

quote:
As for giving up, well, you know that well, now, don't you? I don't see you improving your sig...which is why I say to Ramsey, I don't think Genis is really interested in leaning to improve his graphics...or anything else, for that matter. No, Genis posted a sig once...and quickly disappeared...but whatever. in fact, I don't see Genis really doing much of anything on these boards...except for talking, that is. Makes me wonder, just why he is here...he certainly likes to fight...but we don't.

and then this whopper...

quote:
And since we have wandered way off the topic, I think this one has reached it's end...sad, because it could have been really interesting...I really would have liked to discuss the racial theme further.

SOooo, you shut it down because it went off topic, yet you really did want to discuss the racial them further?

So discussing the racial theme is okay in a Clooney/Heston topic then?

Something does not compute.
So now, I ask, who is the one running over their points like a drunk man?
and who is the one fighting, and who is the one defending themselves?

Explain that one, oh powerful Shaman of the magic art of power abuse.

You want to fight?
yes, obviously you do.

Fine, I reiterate (once again) my challenge to you for a Formal Debate.
This one will have a winner and a loser.
The good Doctor may be the judge.

You win, I leave the Asylum forever, never to bother the WebShaman-meister again.
I win, you are stripped of your Mad Sci abilities forever.

The topic:
Did Genis turn the Clooney/Heston thread into some sort of fight?

You have obviously accused me of this. Wrongly accused, that is.

However much you would like me to give up and let you have the last word on this subject, I will most definitely not.
You have insulted me in a public forum and so shall I defend myself in that same forum, and espouse the seriousness of the injustice you have committed by closing that thread.

quote:
I have other things to do...don't you?

Obviously, you don't.
And no matter what I am doing, I always have time to fight for truth and justice.

Your move, sir.

~ The crowd sits anxiously awaiting the outcome ~
~ Will he accept the challenge or change the subject yet again ~
~ Join us next time, same Asylum time, same Asylum channel ~

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 12:00

Lol!! *gasp*

Ok...enough already...my sides are hurting...

And yes, I really was interested in discussing it further...in response to this

quote:
I do *not* want to get into a fight over labels with a bunch of pinko commie libs

But at the risk of not heeding Master Suho's warning, I would like to explore this racism thing further.

Forgive me, Suho, but I really am hoping to learn a bit from the responses because I may be off base on some of my assumptions.

Just so we're clear, topics diverging into even better topics has never bothered me one bit

I'm not really sure where this fits into this conversation but I really wanted to type that up and get it out. Simply take it as a partial soul dump. Carry on.



Especially this part, is relavant

quote:
Just so we're clear, topics diverging into even better topics has never bothered me one bit



I was very interested in Bug's points...and discussing them...but he disappeared after the thread got out of hand...which I can quite understand...

Look, if this thing is really bothering you to no end, drop me a mail...or drop one of the other Mad Scientists a mail...or drop the Doc a mail.

I don't decide the topics for the Formal Debate...as one would know, who has participated, or followed the threads. I do not run the Formal Debate...so drop BeeKay a mail...or InSiDeR, if that is what you want. Also, the Formal Debate was not created, with this type of...subject-matter in mind...it's not a place to fight, either. Rather, it is a format for presenting points and evidence thereof within a special framework...and with rules. There is no real 'winner' in that regard...how would one decide who won?


Also, I didn't decide to become a Mad Scientist...the Doc decided that. It's not something one asks for...so, if you wish for me not to be a Mad Scientist, then maybe drop the Doc a mail on this...*shrugs* I'm sure, that if he decides that I have been abusing my duties, that he will change my status. There was a time, where the Doc dropped everyone from Mad Scientist...to one place below.

Until then, I'll do my duties.

And why would I want you to leave the Asylum?? Man, you are really taking this all to seriously...relax. Go create something...it'll take your mind off of negative things...creation has that effect...

I'm not interested, for the last time, in fighting with you...Got it? You give me the impression that this is personal...it's not (at least, I don't see it that way). Take it to mail, if it is...for that is where it belongs if it's personal.

I take it, that you don't wish to continue the discussion of the racial topic of this thread? I mean, you've used all your posts up to this point to drive a personal agenda...and to address my name, and actions, etc, instead of continuing the topic. I see no point in this, and would normally close the thread. But if I close it, you'll probably start bitching about that...so...if anyone else can see a point to this thread, and would like to respond to it, then please do, and let the topic continue...otherwise, I would humbly ask for it to be closed...as it is, I can see no real purpose for this...other than a bit of humor...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 01-28-2003).]

genis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dallas, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 12:26
quote:
Look, if this thing is really bothering you to no end, drop me a mail...or drop one of the other Mad Scientists a mail...or drop the Doc a mail.

I reiterate (boy, I sure am doing alot of that lately) ... You have insulted me in a public forum and so shall I defend myself in that same forum, and espouse the seriousness of the injustice you have committed by closing that thread.
I will not "drop" you a mail.
I did drop the Doc a mail, and he suggested a Formal Debate about the topic, to which I proposed several different scenarios.
However you are intent on fighting, so here we are.

quote:
I don't decide the topics for the Formal Debate...as one would know, who has participated, or followed the threads. I do not run the Formal Debate...so drop BeeKay a mail...or InSiDeR, if that is what you want.

I don't give a shit what you call it, or who starts it.
I want you to CONCEDE you were wrong.
And you obviously know you are, because you skirt every challenge I present.

quote:
Also, the Formal Debate was not created, with this type of...subject in mind...it's not a place to fight, either. Rather, it is a format for presenting points and evidence thereof within a special framework...and with rules. There is no real 'winner' in that regard...how would one decide who won?

Then create something else that is. We'll call it the "Shaman Showdown" in honor of your memory.
The rules would be ten posts each per participant, then each participant gets a closing statement.
The judge would be a non-partisan critic, who will weigh the evidence presented by the participants, and rule accordingly.
And since this one has stakes only the Doc could carry out, he would be the best judge, or he could assign a willing judge.

quote:
I'm not interested, for the last time, in fighting with you...Got it?

No. Concede your wrongdoings and reopen the thread. You will not have the last word!

quote:
I take it, that you don't wish to continue the racial topic of this thread?

Who can continue in earnest when jealous zealots rule the future of their speech?

See how I answered all your questions?
It is the mark of a great debater.

Now I only have one question for you;
Do you accept the challenge with the terms as stated above? ( Yes or No will do fine. )

tomeaglescz
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 12:32

*pokes head round door* looks at topic...gives up walks out


Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 01-28-2003 14:30

Genis...what he didn't say is that he would like to discuss the racial theme as it pertains to the Clooney/Heston issue. You've twisted that just slightly there. He only said he'd like to discuss the racial theme which, as it goes in the previous thread is less about the Clooney/Heston issue and more of a general philosophical hypothesis as applied to today's modern idiom

(Did I use enoguh big words for everyone )

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 14:37

Hehe...man, you really are not getting it, are you? Lol!!

Ok...let's see now...the Doc said this

quote:
Hmm, given how the last thread spun a bit out of control (sensitive issue and all that), maybe this topic should be re-launched as a "Formal Debate"? Genis has his points, and several folks seem to disagree (I tried to catch up on the last thread, but deep philosophy makes my head hurt!)



Now, what was the topic? There it is...in the upper right hand corner *points* "Clooney/Heston continued... (now a race discussion)"

And you understood that, here

quote:
Anybody goes, even WebShaman, so long as he promises not to shut it down if he doesn't like my point of view.

However, if someone would like to argue (again) the point that race isn't a false term.
I'll take that.

Or if they'd like to argue (again) the point that everyone is prejudiced in some way, no matter who they are or what they think.
I'll also take that on.



However, I never said anything at all about not liking your point of view...so I promise not to shut down a thread if I don't like your point of view. In fact, I've never shut down a thread because I didn't like someones point of view. I don't know of any Mad Scientist, or Psychotic, that did shut down a thread, just because of a different viewpoint. Could you perhaps show me an example of one?

I even proposed a race topic for the Formal Debate here along the lines that the Doc suggested...

quote:
and the Doc brought up an interesting idea...so I'll post it here Is it possible not to be prejudiced in todays society regarding race?

Anybody interested? BeeKay, you are doing the Formal Debate thing, right? What else is on the list? Any takers on this one?

So yes, I did what I could...the rest is not in my hands, Genis.

But I don't think the Doc meant (not meaning to put words into his mouth...) this

quote:
The topic:
Did Genis turn the Clooney/Heston thread into some sort of fight?



And this

quote:
Or when WebShaman berated me, saying I started the fight, then closed the topic without allowing me to refute his claims.



Could you point out where I said that you started the fight? I said that the topic had wandered way off topic...the only reference that I made to fighting was

quote:
I don't know why you feel the need to go on fighting...

This doesn't mean you started it...and as one can see, in this thread, you still are. You say this is because

quote:
You have insulted me in a public forum

Okayyy...you got insulted in a public forum. Ummm...and? Happens all the time...could you perhaps point out how I insulted you? Because I agreed with DL? Or because I found the situation humorous? Or do you find that it was insulting, for me to close the thread?

quote:
However much you would like me to give up and let you have the last word on this subject, I will most definitely not.


Uhhh...where on earth are you digging that up from? I think you are slowly losing it here...take a couple of deep breaths, relax...let them out...

Then this

quote:
No. Concede your wrongdoings and reopen the thread. You will not have the last word!

My wrong-doings?? Which ones are those?

Re-open the thread - that would be wrong-doing along my ways of thinking...but I'm sure, if you can make a case to another Mad Scientist, that they would. Why don't you ask them?

quote:
I don't give a shit what you call it, or who starts it.
I want you to CONCEDE you were wrong.
And you obviously know you are, because you skirt every challenge I present.



Well, that's not exactly the way to go about convincing others to co-operate, now is it?

Hehe...man, you are really killing me here...as for skirting your challenges, I already stated, many times, I'm not interested. Would you like me to create a huge sign, so you can understand that? Get it through your head...WebShaman is not interested. The reason? Because it would serve no reason to do so.

Also, it would not bring anything positive out of it - you leaving is not positive, my losing Mad Scientist is not positive...re-formulate your conditions, to maybe, 'I'll get creative, and produce something..' and 'WebShaman will, too if he loses'...or something along those lines...but hey! We don't even need to have a competition to start doing that! We can get started now...much better, don't you think?

Then you say this

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take it, that you don't wish to continue the racial topic of this thread?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who can continue in earnest when jealous zealots rule the future of their speech?



So I take it this thread (and topic) has run it's course? Would you like me to close it? Then, if you wish, you can start another one 'Challenge to WebShaman' or some such...your own little, personal soapbox, just for you!

You are aware, that the Doc is paying the bills here, right? What gives you the right to use up un-necessary space? How are you then different from all the others? I call that wrong-doing...and abuse. That's one of the reasons (I believe) that the Doc created Mad Scientists...to prevent that.

There is already (as I said, and linked) a proposal for a Formal Debate...and I don't control how they get selected...that is the proper channel for this, as far as I am concerned. For things of a personal nature, as I said before, take it to mail. You do know what that means, right? Mail? That's E-Mail...and you can mail me here (so you don't have to wonder, what my address is, or have to do any work, looking it up) rawn_phoenix@web.de .

There. Nice and easy for you. As for the Formal Debate thing, you'll just have to wait, until the current Debate has run it's course, and then we'll see, which topic gets chosen for it...in the meantime, why don't you go create something? Or get involved in some of the many activities to be found here at the Asylum...I know that I will.

Oh yeah...this

quote:
Then create something else that is. We'll call it the "Shaman Showdown" in honor of your memory.
The rules would be ten posts each per participant, then each participant gets a closing statement.
The judge would be a non-partisan critic, who will weigh the evidence presented by the participants, and rule accordingly.
And since this one has stakes only the Doc could carry out, he would be the best judge, or he could assign a willing judge.



Then create it, get it going...and we will see, what type of response it brings...if enough like it, maybe it will catch on...who knows? Maybe, through this, the Doc will make you a Mad Scientist...stranger things have happened...



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 01-28-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-28-2003 15:01
quote:
espouse the seriousness of the injustice you have committed



Oh dear god genis, GET OVER YOURSELF!

You're worse than a politician at campaign time, with all the twists and double standards and whining complaints about *your* mistreatment.

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 01-28-2003 15:26

^^^ My sentiments exactly DL

tomeaglescz
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Czech Republic via Bristol UK
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 16:42

ROFLMAO

DL that is a gem

This is worse than mixing politics with a soap opera !!!!

I have never seen so much energy being given by somone trying to make another bite in response.

Genis: Either choose a topic and stick to it, put forward a sensible argument and be prepared to back it up, stop getting into pissing contests when ya pissing into the wind. Only thing that will happen is you will wet ya own pants and everyone will laugh at you.

DL & WS: You Crack me up.

Man I dont know why i keep coming back to this thread but the responses from ws and dl are cracking me up, and genis's plots twist more than any political candidate, just expecting a monica type twist to come out of the closet now

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 16:51

Well this thread started out badly and has gone downhill since then - I'd suggest taking it to email but I can't really see the point. It would probably just be better to shut this down and stick a do not disturb notice on it.

I wouldn't favour this turning into a Formal Debate as it appears we'd never be able to agree on a sensible topic to debate and I could see it spinning rapidly into off topic ramblings.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 17:02

So shut it down...if I do it, he'll just whine about it over, and over, and over again...like a commercial for Energizer batteries...

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 01-28-2003 17:42

However, in an attempt to drag this back:

genis: Your idea that we can somehow eliminate racial prejudice by not ticking the relevant box is flawed because:

1. It would require everyone to do it.

2. In some ways 'race' (in the very broadest sense) can contribute to our 'indentity' and a feeling of shared history with a group of people.

3. Its not just about 'race' as people are prejudiced against people for all sorts of reasons (clothes, accent, etc.) it is about the mind set that rigidly categorises people into groups with very stereotypical characteristics and doesn't allow for the fact that people may differ from this.

4. Classifying people into groups is possibly one of the ways we can mediate our relationships with large groups of people. Language developed to cope with group sizes that made exceeded the sizes that things like grooming could cope with and media developed (from Chauvet and the Venus figurines onwards) to not only cope with interactions across space but through time. We also need ways of dealing with our interactions with large groups of people and categorising people using numerous criteria (including not just race but country, region, accent, education) as it means we don't have to start from a base level of knowing nothing about a person you first meet.

In the end it isn't about the classifying of people it is about the mental flexibility to deal properly with this and with the steraotypes people attach to their classification of groups. I know dogs that are scared of all men but I would hope that we could deal with the fact that people tend not to fit comfortably into our steroetypical view of that group.

So the way to address it itsn't to stop people from classifying themselves or others as they want (it is a powerful tool with many pluses) it is about educating people to be more flexible in their thinking and not to attach negative traits to the broadest of categories (like 'race', nationality, appearance, etc.).

So do I agree with you? Not at all.

[edit: I got sidetracked whilst composing this but yes WS I will shut it down if it continues along the lines it is/was going - this is advanced warning and won't be given again]

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-28-2003 18:06

On the subject of race, I'd just like to add that being completely devoid of raical prejudice is not a good thing.

Race, as Emperor points out, is part of our identity.

It brings up a quote from...someone I can't recall...that goes something like "...the trend today is to celebrate diversity, as long as we don't talk about the fact that we're all different"

Which is, of course, absurd. And sadly true.

krets
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: KC, KS
Insane since: Nov 2002

posted posted 01-28-2003 18:16

I tried to read this thread, I really did. Somewhere along the line I got lost in all the pointless babbling and blatant overuse of the quote tag.

So I am going to close this. This is not personal against either genis or WS, I think the jackass factor is just about even on both sides.

Start another topic on the issue of race if you want but can we stick to the topic and leave our personal differences to email?

Thank you please drive through.

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