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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-25-2003 09:39

I know we've covered this quite a bit over the last several months but I would like to keep it current. I reviewed some of the older threads and figured it would be good to start a new one.

Suho, I recently heard an interview with Norbert Vollertsen about the appauling conditions in N. Korea. It was really heart breaking to say the very least to hear about what he witnessed. Have you heard of this man and his claims? What is your opinion?

Here are a few links I found about him: http://www.chosunjournal.com/vollertseninterview.html http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s546004.htm http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/press-kit-nov27.pdf http://www.breakpoint.org/Breakpoint/ChannelRoot/FeaturesGroup/BreakPointCommentaries/Eyewitness+to+Atrocity.htm

. . : slicePuzzle

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-25-2003 11:07

Yeah, the conditions in North Korea are appalling...that has been covered...

That was one of my main points regarding NK, Bugs...it's much more 'evil', if you will, then Saddam ever was...

And the situation there is...explosive, to say the least...how long should the North Koreans be made to suffer? Even China is slowly starting to turn a different eye on the situation...the situation there is really the last 'bastion' of hard-core 'communism', if you will, on the planet. Though it in reality has little to do with real communism.

I personally don't think that any amount of diplomatic talks will produce anything...productive. In this, history supports my view. Like it or not, it must fall...one way or the other. Granted, I think all diplomatic channels and options should be exercisied...but I have little 'faith', that there will be anything productive produced...

When people are forced to eat one another, just to stay alive...surely that can't be wanted, right? 'Man, my neighbor really looks...delicious'...or my parents, or my children...

Obviously, the Leadership in NK doesn't really care...it's certainly not a nurturing government...any government willing to do that to its own people, would be willing to do god knows to others...

The main problem here, is the Security Council of the UN (China). If China was to undergo a process of one like Russia, I'm sure that the NK problem would be rather easy to deal with...I just can't, for the life in me, understand why China doesn't allow the NK problem to be finally dealt with...*shrugs*

Should we then wait another 40 years, for China to 'catch up' to the rest of the world...and the untold millions of NK deaths that that entails? What more can be done to NK diplomatically, sanctionswise, to change things there?

If there really is a country in the world, the demands our (US) 'policing', then it is the situation in NK. I sincerely hope that they really do not have nukes...though they most probably do. They have at least the materials for one, perhaps more...and have demonstrated a willigness to sell military arms...and import/export such technology (re: Pakistan). I'm sure that Al Qaida is more than interested in obtaining a nuke...and if NK has them, would be willing to sell, if the price is right...a midnight meeting somewhere in the ocean, away from prying sattelite eyes...from a NK submarine to a small ship...sends chills up and down my spine. it would be the 'perfect# deal...Al Qaida is certainly not interested in NK (at least, not at the moment, heh)...and NK would indirectly be able to strike a blow at the hated foe...and get paid to do it! It would be very hard to track this back to NK...I'm not sure if we even have the signature traces for NK plutonium...it would show up as 'unkown'...which points a vague finger, at best...we could suspect, but not prove...after all, the plutonium could have come from Pakistan...India...Israel...who knows?

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 04-25-2003 14:34

I had not heard of Norbert Vollertsen before, but I read that interview in the Chosun Journal and I have a great respect and admiration for the man. I have often wondered myself if perhaps God did not bring me to Korea to somehow help with the North Korean situation. I have, in fact, been offered the opportunity to go to North Korea to help with a medical missions group, but this is obviously not something that can be done lightly. I must admit that the thought of going to North Korea scares me, not because of any danger I might be in, but because of the profound changes it would mean in my life. I pride myself on being adventurous and always willing to take on new challenges, but I must admit that I have "settled down." I have a wife now, and we are thinking about kids. I'm now in the middle of a Ph.D. program, and I've become involved in a lot of academic societies and translation projects. In a word, I have a nice, secure life going for me.

Do I want to go? Deep down inside, I do--but I don't know if I can make the sacrifices it would require (for one, my wife would not be able to go with me). I don't know if this is what God has planned for me, or if I am even using that as an excuse to justify not going. No one would blame me for not going--that would be the logical, the sensible thing to do. Not that being sensible is a bad thing, but there was a time in my life when I wasn't so bound by such things.

I guess a lot of things change when you get married and become a family man. I do not regret getting married, but I think if I had not been married when the offer was made I would have taken it. Like Frost, though, I can't travel both roads. I'm just keeping an open mind and an open heart, and if it ever becomes possible for my wife to go with me, then that will be something we will consider together.

Sorry to make this a religious/personal thing, but you guys know how I feel about North Korea. I detest the regime (a bunch of spoiled children with nuclear weapons, or at least the materials needed to make them), but the people are Korean brothers and sisters. The suffering of the North Korean people is certainly not news, and it has been known (at least in South Korea) for years now. It just breaks my heart to think about it.

Although I cannot verify Vollertsen's claims in any way, I have no reason to doubt them. Think of the worst hell you can imagine. That's what the North Korean people go through.

Sorry for the disjointed post. I'm just kind of throwing thoughts out there as they come to me.




www.liminality.org

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-25-2003 20:01

Suho, I am confident that God will make His wishes known to you in His time. Strength to you, my friend

It is becoming very clear that this issue is coming to a head and I honestly cannot see the details. While we absolutely must find a diplomatic solution, we all know that is not always possible. Something has to give and I think China is the key. WS, you said:

quote:
I just can't, for the life in me, understand why China doesn't allow the NK problem to be finally dealt with...*shrugs*

Well, one thing I know for sure is that they are loving every second of this. It's called distraction. Every moment of time we have to spend on the DPRK is a moment China feels we are ignoring their abuses. They would like nothing more than to move the US out of Asia so they can extend their sphere of influence and keeping the DPRK fire stoked is a very convenient and cheap way for them to help achieve this goal.

I find it almost comical (if it weren't so very grave) that WS will now be the "hawk" going against world opinion in this matter. WS, do you expect the UN to support any military action against North Korea? I would love to know whether you think this organization you place so much faith in will rise to the occasion. Keep in mind that China sits on the Security Council. Are you going to support another illegal war? Don't worry, I won't be the one giving you a hard time about it because you know where I stand on opposing regimes like this but I can't speak for others among our allies.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-25-2003 20:39

Well, they rose to it once before, remember (The Korean War, or Police action, if you will)? And yes, call me a hawk on this issue...it's warrented (IMHO).

I would love to find a diplomatic solution to the problem...who wouldn't? Do I trust Mr. Bush and his administration to find one? No. I don't trust him, to wage a war there, either. Any solution must involve SK, IMHO. After all, they are the ones that will be directly affected, irregardless of 'solution'. I personally don't think a diplomatic solution will (or can) be found, however...40+ years running, and no end in sight.

I would personally hope, that NK could be 'lured' into doing something stupid, as an excuse. We have done such things often enough...it's not that difficult a thing to do. Then the UN...but I doubt that China will sit this one out, like the first time...they'll probably veto anything pertaining to NK. Maybe a covert op, with a low-level nuke in China, and make it look like NK? That'd get the Chinese pretty riled, I would think...then a fast action on the Security Council...it just might work.

Of course, a lightning strike against the Nuclear Plant might be good...I don't know. I don't have access to sat info, like I used to...

Look, I'm not being blind to this issue...certainly, NK hasn't gone totally to war with anyone (major invasion) since the first war...but they are always trying our 'readiness'...our will to defend SK...and they have never dropped the idea of uniting Korea (under them, of course).

So if the situation remains in stalemate, like it is now...eventually, either a) NK will fall apart, by itself or b)America will withdraw it's troops someday, under a President who doesn't believe in having troops there (policy change). Mr. Rumsfeld even mentioned it...I just hope he wasn't serious about it. Hmmm...maybe a 'fake' withdrawl would intice NK into invading the South...but that would cost a lot of SK lives...at least, I think it would. Hard to say, in this day and age.

Yep, I'm definitely hawkish on this one...sorry if I'm stepping on anyones toes...

And it just occured to me...the war is not officially over, at least, not as I understand it...I think a cease fire was declared...in that case, we wouldn't need a Security Council resolution, at all...I'll have to look into that.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 04-26-2003).]

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-26-2003 02:44
quote:
it must fall...one way or the other.
--- WebShaman



Well, they have nukes, and won't falter to use them. So what would you propose? A nuclear war? hmm

quote:
What are the biggest human rights issues in North Korea today?

It`s a huge prison camp. Kim Jong-Il, the "Dear Leader," is committing genocide. The mass starvation is man-made and is being used as a political weapon to suppress his own people.



Appauling? yes it is. But they're not the first ones. This kind or regime existed in Stalin's Russia. Did americans ever mention gulags until the 90s? Or is it just that the 21st century somehow brought compassion for people overseas along with the fear of acts of terror??? Suddenly we want to liberate the whole world from the oppression of dictatorship and communism(or whatever form of it exists in NK). We want to share our freedom! We want the iraqi and korean kids to watch american movies and then go to McDonald's for their daily dose of junkfood. Yes! let's liberate them!
And Syria? Some say they're harboring former iraqi officials, and are themselves in posession of Weapons of Mass Destruction. They're the next on line to be liberated. After all, they dont have nukes... or do they?

Which brings me to an interesting observation. How eager was bush to rid the world of Saddam's WMD, since he was SO SURE SADDAM HAD THEM. And lets watch how North Korea will get liberated now that they actually ADMIT OF POSESSING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Will he dare set a foot on the hostile soil?

P.S. I'm still for peace... I just dont believe neither in it, nor in politicians' feeling of COMPASSION

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-26-2003 05:00

What about *your* compassion or lack thereof? What would *you* do? It's easy to tear things down but not as easy to build up a plan that will work. Take the challenge and we'll help you refine it

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-26-2003 05:42

hah! right.

Notice, I never said this is wrong. I just rediculed certain aspects of gov'ts and their policies.
I do feel sorry for the oppressed ones, but unfortunately such is life. And going from country to country setting our own laws isnt gonna work either. I mean, what about all those oppressed countries that DO NOT have oil or anything U.S. needs. Will anyone ever speak of them? no. Some news article talked about some tribe in africa, which got slaughtered by another tribe. a genocide, only not on such a grandeur scale. Did bush ever talk about them? nahhhh. My point was - we only ""help"" those countries that have something we need, and cannot counter an invasion.

So a solution? hmmm good question. One who can come up with a way to unite the world would be the greatest man to ever walk the earth. And helping one country and overlooking 50 others that are in similar condition isn't much help either.

And pleasseeeeee. Be careful with the media. They control the masses.



[This message has been edited by asptamer (edited 04-26-2003).]

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 04-28-2003 20:01

There is also the effect on the region - it is possible that Japan may go nuclear:
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,944737,00.html

which is rather a scary prospect

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-29-2003 09:24

Yep. 'Fallout' from the present situation, I'm afraid...and a sign of things possibly to come - should diplomatic efforts fail (which they most probably will).

Also, the US (well, the UN, more appropriately) is still at war with NK...so asptamer, are you suggesting that the US should 'abandon' SK, then?

Of all things, Korea is the one thing that the US has not abandoned...not yet, at least (well, the Cold War, as well...in fact, WWI and WWII were not abandoned). However, NK still exists...and the problem as well. The problem has to be dealt with, either now or later (and we now see what has happened when we decide to do it later...).

As for actual military strikes against NK...I personally don't think that NK has a viable method for hitting the US with a nuclear weapon...not yet, anyway...so the time is ripe, to 'spank' them soundly...before they do. That they might decide to try to hit SK is a concern, however...I still think that with that new laser weapon...well, we'll see.

Ok, this just in http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/page.cfm?objectid=12900987&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=N%20Korea%3A%20Talks%20a%20waste%20of%20time]N Korea: Talks a waste of time...and this just scares the beejeebies out of me

quote:
A senior US official said that, during the meeting, North Korea acknowledged for the first time that it had nuclear weapons and was contemplating exporting or even using them, depending on US actions.

--IC Wales.co.uk

Well, there it is in a nutshell...acknowledgement, and willingness to sell nuclear weapons...IMHO, this situation is more dangerous than Iraq ever was...

I hope to god that Mr. Bush sticks to his guns, and doesn't let up on this one...why is it, that he can have us go into Iraq, but not NK? Normally, he should be aswinging those sabers...

There is no amount of diplomacy that is going to work here...of that, I am certain. Well, not certain...maybe (and that is a big maybe) China will exert pressure on NK...though I still don't see NK just giving up their Nukes...

And this in, as well...I'm not quite sure what to make of it...N Korea never admitted to nukes: China...wtf?? Could one of the US translators have made an error, or is China lying?

Ahhh...this article Quarrel over North Korea explains much on the NK problem...that damned Rumsfeld again!

Damn the man...between him and Cheney...

Well, we will see...hopefully, Mr. Powell can pull off a miracle in China, on NK...nothing against giving diplomacy a chance...just highly doubt that it will work. It certainly will not bring about a regime change...

However, that plan is much, much better than the one offered by Rumsfeld/Cheney...hooboy. I mean, how stupid can one get?


[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 04-29-2003).]

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 04-29-2003).]

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 04-29-2003 15:17

Now this looks hopeful:
www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,945484,00.html

quote:
North Korea has offered to abandon its nuclear weapons programme, stop missile exports and readmit foreign inspectors in return for a US pledge not to attack, it was revealed last night.



quote:
the latest details of that meeting show that North Korea also offered significant concessions. Alongside its longstanding offer to halt its nuclear programme in return for a non-aggression pact, it promised to stop exporting missiles and allow nuclear inspectors into the country.



I do hope the US don't mishandle this one. It appears the offer was made last week and I'm suprised it has taken this long for word to get out.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-29-2003 16:44

Yes...but do you trust NK to actually do this? I don't...not without a way to verify it...on a continual basis, and even then (just like last time), they could expell the verifying agency at moments notice...

In fact, that was what the light-water reactors, financial aid and heating oil was all about, last time...didn't help.

Any agreement with NK isn't worth the paper it's written on, IMHO.

But we will see...

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-29-2003 19:00

I have to agree with you on this one, WS. We already had "assurances" and an "agreement" from Pyongyang to abandon it nuclear program and we only learned recently they did no such thing. How is that hopeful that they are offering to do the same thing now? This is one hell of a bad situation.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 04-29-2003 19:06

WS & Bugs: I agree with you both (now isn't this fun!!). It would have to involve the IAEA being given unrestricted access, the start of peace talks with all the regions powers, etc.

However, I do believe there is an opportunity to make a change in NK and this might be our last chance?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-29-2003 19:33

And of course, isn't this how Iraq ended up, after the first Gulf War?

Yeah...get rid of those Nukes...then we'll talk...hehe...

You don't really think that NK will trust us, now, do you?

But who knows...maybe Chinas reaction has NK surprised...maybe China even hinted that they wouldn't intercede, should the US militarily decide the issue...that would be one hell of an improvement, wouldn't it? I mean, I don't really expect China just to sit back on it's laurels...but still, one hell of a threat...maybe NK is between a rock and a hard place...

Well, let's see what the State Department can do...go Mr. Powell!!!

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 04-30-2003 03:26

I've been following this thread from the sidelines, and I just thought I'd pop in to say I agree about any agreement with the DPRK not being worth the paper it's written on (yeah, more agreeing!).

I'd also like to suggest the possibility that China may play a larger role in bring North Korea under control than the U.S. First of all, the U.S. has nothing to gain by invading North Korea. Secondly, China has a lot more to lose than the U.S. if North Korea has a working nuclear weapons system. To China, stability in the region means that China remains the most powerful, and nuclear weapons really throw a monkey wrench into that machine.

China is the key to this; they don't want this to get out of hand. I just pray that they act sensible and quickly.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-30-2003 05:41

Well...NK has spoken S.Korean daily details North's 3-point plan to US

Personally, I hold nothing from such 'promises'...they promised this before...didn't stop them from breaking them.

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 04-30-2003 06:26

I've always said I trust North Korea as far as I can throw them, and even in their emaciated state, it's still pretty rough to toss an entire country any reasonable distance.

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