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asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-26-2003 23:23
quote:
In modern "civilized" times, there are at least 123 countries which utilize torture as a means of controlling its citizens.



and this is from http://www.pacinfo.com/eugene/tsnet/History.html

So do you guys really think that we're gonna go and change the regime in 123 countries? hmmm sounds like fun.
Or is it just that Saddam tortured more than the rest? Or maybe politicians dont really care if people are tortured or not?

or try this

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-27-2003 00:06

The very simple answer to your question is NO. We are not going to go and change every country. But here's the point I've been trying to make repeatedly about this situation. Because we don't act everywhere does not necessarily mean we should act nowhere. This is not a black and white issue, it is very convoluted about why we attacked Iraq and why we won't even bother about Sudan.

Let's slow down just a second. Let me understand what you're saying. Are you saying that unless we are willing *and* able to change everyone, then we should do *nothing* about some?

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-27-2003 00:14

not exactly. I'm sort of saying that since we're not going to go and change the world, we (here in asylum) should not be so eagerly using "there is no more torture in iraq" as the only outcome of war. There are plenty of others, and most of them are only beneficial for the people On Top, not for us, or for iraqis. Dont think that now that saddam is gone, iraqis will rejoice and just take up on democracy and separation of religion and state. They aren't black and white either. They aren't just 'iraqis' they are many different tribes and ethnicities. Watch them have a civil war after U.S. withdraws its troops.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-27-2003 00:19

I totally agree it remains to be seen whether or not liberal democracy based on a constitution will take hold there. We are not going to leave until we have given it a good try. Time will tell.

But it is possible and I am very glad we are going to attempt it. If we pull out now, there will no doubt be more bloodshed. Assume we are going to be there a minimum of 5 years but I would guess it's more like 15. Remember, we are still in Kosovo and that has been 10 years already!

mobrul
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 04-27-2003 00:22

On this I'd agree with Bugs...that is, we should not be expected to FIX everything, everywhere.

The tricky question comes, though, when you ask why it is we are promoting these kinds of governments someplaces...why we train their soldiers on the newest latest and greatest torture techniques right here in the states...why we harbor our own terrorists...why we give all the weapons and money and training one could want to some of the most despicable tyrants...
If we can't fix the problem, we should at least have the decency to not be a part of the problem, right?

...or maybe we don't give a damn about torture, tyranny or terrorism and that's just a clever ploy to rally the troops.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-27-2003 00:44

mobrul, we have definitely propped up creeps, no doubt. But in some of those cases the alternative was to allow creeps to flourish. In the cases where we couldn't or wouldn't invade to install democracy, we have definitely made sure our thugs prevailed. I think we both know that is how it has been done.

Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 04-27-2003 06:57

Bugs: do I detect some admissions at last?, things that cannot be ignored or called correct, things which you see are gravely and disturbingly wrong with the way the US accomplish their aims?... thats exactly what I'm talking about, I guess they are here, I just have to hunt around for them...

Still it's digusting.. if you play with dirt the result is one become filthy..

...xpi...

"nuff said"

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 04-27-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-27-2003 07:55

Like we told you, we've talked about this many times before and I never denied any of those things. I believe we can only minimize such "dirtiness" but never get rid of it completely. We live in the mud, it is what we call the world. This means that we get dirty, there is no other way. We can only do the best we can while we're here.

This is why I don't take the position that until we are perfect that is the only time we can act to improve things. Do you see my view better now? And, by all means, if you know a way of never getting dirty *and* achieving a greater good in this world, I want to hear about it. I am willing to learn from ideas that are better than what I've got now in my head.

MW
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: 48°00ŽN 7°51ŽE
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 04-27-2003 15:38

So, now we´re clear about the fact that the US has lots of dirt (or, to put it less euphemistic, blood) on its hands - Let´s talk about your "greater good".

This must be a very great good, which determines that it was acceptable for Saddam to torture, oppress and murder, as long as he was your thug, but made him a dangerous criminal as soon as he did it on his own account. It even justified educating a whole generation of south and middle american dictators and their henchmen in the newest torture techniques. Actually it must be a good of nearly unimaginable greatness, seeing how it was easily worth sacrificing some millions of Vietnamese lives...

So tell me, what is the nature of this greater good, which is sufficient to give the your country the right to inflict any amount of suffering on people all over the world in it´s pursuit?

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 04-27-2003 16:53

Bugs you said:

quote:
we have definitely propped up creeps, no doubt. But in some of those cases the alternative was to allow creeps to flourish.



I'm not sure what you defintion of 'creeps' means but as they include Salvador Allende then it seems to encompass democratically elected governments that the US doesn't happen to like.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 04-28-2003 05:29

I think I'm beginning to understand you a little better now Bugs.. I may not neccesarily agree but I do see more clearly your viewpoint. I realise that you are human and maybe even a very nice guy...


...xpi...

"nuff said"

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 04-28-2003 05:58

I think you all should lay off a bit. You think you've got Bug's cornered and you're after blood. Be respectful at the very least.

What he says isn't wrong, and what you all are saying is that, because it was wrong for us to have supported Saddam, we aren't allowed to fix our own mistakes.

Yeah, we made him. We helped him and it cost lives. Unfortunetly its going to cost us more lives to fix our mistake. one can only hope that we learn something form this and stop supporting assholes worldwide. So back off, quit bitching about things you can't control any more than we can and realize that you can't hate us for leaving things alone and also hate us for trying to fix things.

quote:
In modern "civilized" times, there are at least 123 countries which utilize torture as a means of controlling its citizens.

And why is that a point to argue against America's actions? Why hasn't someone ELSE stepped up and told these 123 that they need to cut it out or get removed? Why is America the only country willing to stick its neck out to try and make life somewhere better? It might be on our own agenda, but that doesn't mean that life gets worse for the people we've helped.

You're wrong Xpi. He IS a very nice guy. There shouldn't be any question of that.

So... why do people insist on condemning the US for trying to fix its own mistakes? Yes, an agenda exists. Who the hell knows what it really is. Go ahead and say oil if you like. I don't know if that's true or not BUT, as things go in Iraq... is life going to be better there for us having been there? Most resoundingly, YES. We're in it for the long haul... whether we like it or not, at this point.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 04-28-2003).]

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-28-2003 07:56

GD, though your sentiments are in the right place, don't be so hasty in your judgements...esp. on Iraq...we will just have to wait and see whhat happens and developes there...

And beating up on Bugs is hardly warranted...(not you GD). However, he can defend himself. I have learned over time, to respect the guy, and his opinions, even though they often differ from my own.

As for the subject...hehe...people would just be surprised, and astounished, to know what is really going on, where, and how...even those in Intelligence don't have all the information...I'm absolutely sure, that the President doesn't, either...I don't think there is any one person who actually does...

Also, just what about all those other countries in the world? I think more than a few would be surprised on how most countries really do things...it's a seldom sight, to witness 'fair play' in the world...in fact, I've never seen it. Only an idealist would chose to do so. They never last long...

The fact that America stands in the limelight, at this moment in human history, makes it susceptable to criticism of this nature...but considering past 'World Super Powers', America has a surprisingly mild record...well, up til now. America still hasn't tried to rule the world...not yet, anyway. I find the 'checks and balance' system of the US to be well-made, and functioning...and I largely suspect that Mr. Bush will find that out, come election day. But we will have to wait and see.

Like it or not, there are some things that have to be confronted...for this or that reason...basically, it's 'how successful' a leader does this, that decides the popularity thing...if one can sell it well, it will be accepted...do it poorly, and one will be mauled. I think the track record of Mr. Bush clearly demonstrates that he is a poor leader...he has not done a good enough job of 'selling' his confrontations...thus, he's getting mauled, and so is America. But then, I saw this coming...it was really Afghanistan that keyed me in on this - failing to capture Bin Laden, and failing to eradicate Al Qaida. Then the 'we'll re-build Afghanistan, and help it become a real democracy'...this 'falling back' always has it's dangers...especially when it's repeated...it erodes ones credibility.

I still think that Mr. Bush could save himself...if he manages to capture Bin Laden and Saddam before elections...again, we will see.

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 04-28-2003 17:40

Yes WS, I was a bit presumptuous in that statement. I understand that things will need to be seen as for the future of Iraq. It's just that it works both ways. So far there isn't any evidence that things are going to be worse either. It just irritates me to see someone as level headed as Bugs getting tapped because he's staunch in his viewpoints. Whether I agree with him or not, I respect him and I think he deserves at least that much from everyone else.

I think my point still stands though, the US is fixing (attempting to fix) a mistake we made in initially supporting Saddam. Like I said. I hope we learn something from this.

I agree WS, Bush has seen his day. I hope he gets backseated and buried in a landslide... or not even nominated. Wouldn't that be a kicker? An incumbant who wasn't even nominated. Has that ever happened before?

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

mobrul
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 04-28-2003 17:55

Just to make sure I'm totally clear, I have nothing but absolute respect for Bugs. I DO respect Bugs (though we disagree on most issues) and I show that respect by playing hardball with the issues at hand. I expect the same from him.
I coach a high school rugby team and I always teach my kids to 'play hard, ruck hard, tackle hard.' It is not out of 'hatred' or 'anger' or 'disrespect' or any other such notion of the other team. It is not motivated by a desire to injure. I tell my kids to respect the other team enough to play their best match, and expect the same from the other club. This way of looking at things has created some amazing on-pitch rivalries and some even better off-pitch friendships.
I approach most things in life with this attitude.
The worst form of disrespect I know is simply to ignore, to dismiss, to push aside.

Sometimes I'm sarcastic, sometimes hard, sometimes relentless, but never never never disrespectful.

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 04-28-2003 22:21

I know that, Mobrul. And I do see that respect in your posts... I just find it lacking in other peoples. The... tone (as it were) was very... combative/abrasive/caustic from many of the other authors... that's what I was getting at. So please understand that I wasn't rating you. Or didn't mean to anyway.

But... No nevermind... I'd like to drop it.(if possible) The thread has a good topic and I don't want to derail it any further.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

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