Topic awaiting preservation: Doing Jesus (Page 2 of 3)

What does that have to do with anything, Jade? Because some atheists begin to doubt their convictions as they near death has nothing to do with what we've been talking about. But to follow this to its end. They probably don't accept God or Jesus into their life just before they die. Some may, but most probably don't. It a last ditch effort to alleviate the "What If" that most people have. They are partaking in Paschal's Wager and losing by it, in my opinion.

Now, I ask you these simple questions:

Why are so many christians afraid of death when their redemption is assured if they are sincere in their belief and their request for mercy?

Why have some christians (pardon my lack of reference) revoke their belief in God on their death beds? I mean... lets get specific here. General broad sweeping statements don't alleviate the weight of what you said earlier.

What is it about Deity that makes atheists unable to live their lives like you or I? You see, it has nothing to do with your God or my gods. It has to do with deity (ANY deity). So what is it about being a child of nature that makes their lives so different? I am inclined to say nothing, I want to hear your answer.

[EDIT] Dangit, DL... It's your turn to beat me in, I see...[/EDIT]



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-04-2003).]

DL

Well, I have to admit in the truth of the faith I believe in. It is one truth and the only truth and that is Jesus Christ. But this is not arrograce and only if you are on the outside looking in, it seems that way. The God in Jesus Christ is for all, not for some. How people percieve to see their God is still Jesus. Even if he is viewed as the God of the Muslims, Jews, Baptist, Mormans, etc. Its not like "Oh I have the right God and you don't". God is all these faces and comes to all differently. If you look at the God of the Jews who "IS". He is also the God of the Christians in that God the father, is also the son. The jews woriship their God who is Jesus also. So we are all looking in the same direction. But God came down and gave us a blueprint to follow and maybe some of us can't follow it the way, but all is not lost.

Don't you believe in the political system of government we have. If you didn't maybe you would want to leave the USA.
If you do believe in it, you know it s best form of government for the people to grow, live, prosper and be happy in. The important thing is it has organized structure. From your neighborhood policeman all the way to the president of the USA. You adhere to its US laws, you pay taxes and enjoy your freedoms. For you maybe its the best way to live and you think all countries should live as we do, in a democracy. Would this be arrogrance? You trust in your lawmakers to pass the right laws for the good of all people. You may even have pride in your country and honor it.


So in the spiritual, the Catholic church operates for the good of all n same way, but she doesn't operate only in the physical, but also in the mystical in everyday life. She doesn't only have the good of her intentions in her system of religion, she works outside of it to complete herself to become one with all faiths.

In the path to becoming the unified faith of Christ, she has fallen & shaken through human error or sin, but the rock on which she stands will forever be solid. The reasoning for this is because God guides it, not man. When we make mistakes, don't we learn from it? Should we be crucified forever because of it? Shouldn't we be forgiven? Is this God working in our lives. Its the same concept with the church. Can't you forgive her.

GD

I know many faiths believe that "once saved, always saved". But Catholics don't. We don't know our whole earthly life where we are going. We feel only God knows, or else why should we be born then if we are already going to heaven? Why live your whole life good then if its a sure shoe in. I think when you ask God for mercy, of course it depends on what good grade your heart gets. I think its the state of your loving heart. I know most people are afraid to die, because they are afraid of pain, but once they make their peace with God or themselves or other people, they usually long for thier mothers and want to go "home".

I am sure some people revoke their faith in good on their death bed too. Maybe they are empty even at death. Maybe they are in so much pain they feel how could a god make me go thru this. Where is God? I really don't know the answers. Who does.
Catholics don't have all the anwsers that would satisfy even themselves. But they seek the truth, and become all the wiser as opposed to one who never seeks in it. From the famous bible verse which is so very true "Seek and ye shall find me"

Don't you feel we all are beings of nature? The nature of a God is in all of us. To me God is nature and works thru it. God doesn't have to perform some miracle in the sky and part the waters for you to see who God is. God is wind, sun, fire, ocean tides, hurricanes, snow, eclipses, handshakes, kisses, smiles, etc. God works thur all forms nature to provide an outcome. Do you really think in the days of moses, manna and quail really fell from heaven to feed the Isralites on their 40 years in the desert. No, manna plants and quail are still there in the same land today. God provided thur nature. Or did he really part the Red Sea in the Isralites escape from the Egypitans or was it due to the tide. I think if we could view God in all the earth instead of outside it all, it would be easier to believe in God.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-04-2003).]

That brings up my next point, Jade. If everything and everyone is of God/Nature and we're all free to find our own ways to him, Why do christians find it so damned important to stuff one kind of rhetoric in another faiths direction? If it really is as you say, that god has many faces and we are all doing the same thing in different ways/words (which I believe whole-heartedly), why does it become so important to have only one set of words and way of doing things? Why do christians tell me I'm going to hell for my beliefs and yet agree that my vision of what "god" is and what their vision of what "god" is are the same energy with a different face (or faces in my case)? Is it so hard to think that maybe, justperhaps, there is a scientific explanation for God? Couldn't all of these scientists be searching in their own way for the same answers? Or, if you'd rather, could their belief and method of searching help others in their own search for God? In either of those cases, you are chastising, near on saying, insulting people who work and believe differently than you. If nothing else, you're being impolite. You also continue to dodge certain questions about certain assumptions that you are making of Atheists. You assume that becauseatheists can't see god, they can't see the true beauty of the world.

So I ask again: Why Not? What difference does it make what shape their search takes. What difference does it make in the actual interpretation of what the world is.

I find it easy to see this wonderful world that we live in. I can feel it coursing through my veins. I can tell people how wonderful it is to be alive because of the wonderful experiences waiting for me out there. Of my christian friends out there... it is hard to find one who doesn't focus on the shitty side of life. They all seem to think that the world is a place that needs to be fixed. I don't think it does. Just let it be.

Ok...so let me see if I got this right -

If an atheist sees beauty in the world, and sees how much more significant than himself the power of nature is, and sees how much more vast and long lasting the universe is, and is humble in the face of this beauty, he is arrogant for saying that it has nothing to do with a "god".

But, if a christian sees this beauty, and spits out the proper regurgitate form of christian dogma to explain how god did this, and says that they *know* that this is the only truth, that there is no other way to think, that there is no other possibility, that christian is not in fact arrogant, as it may seem to us "outsiders", but is in fact humble and good for letting the atheist know that they know the one true way to believe?

Do you see no hypocrisy in this?

Do you see no discrepancy of logic here?



Let me repeat -

The atheist is arrogant for saying that he is insignificant in the universe, and that there is no god that made us for a special purpose?

And the christian is humble for saying that we are the most important species on the planet, and that god sits watching and judging our every move and will reward us for eternity at the end of it all?

Is this reverse psychology?


{{edit -

Oh, and -

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You trust in your lawmakers to pass the right laws for the good of all people

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Surely you jest......

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If you do believe in it, you know it s best form of government for the people to grow, live, prosper and be happy in

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I agree that it's better than most of the available options. It is most certainly not *the* one way to live, and it can most certainly be improved upon.
It also happens to be very open to infestations of corrupt bigots, administrative whores, and corporate thugs. Not to mention murderers, thieves, child molestors, drug lords, etc etc etc.

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So in the spiritual, the Catholic church operates...in same way

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That I'll agree with



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-05-2003).]

GD,

As a Christian, I would never presume to judge anyone in saying your going to hell for not being a Christian. There could possibly be a lot of so called Christians that could be burning in hell as we post. No one on this planet knows for sure where they are headed in the afterlife. For a christian to judge you like this means they ares not acting christ-like. But to put a limit on God and say he only exist in certian faiths is wrong. I would say that all religions are extensions of God. It like God is a body. All parts of the body are essential for life. If one part of the body isn't working, the body is not in perfect health. So all faiths are welcomed by God, but faith needs an authority. Isn't there a head of your religion acting on behalf of all. Isn't there someone in charge? Do you follow him or her?

Everyone is on a spiritual journey, even scientist when they are looking to have questions answered. For them to say there is no God and try to prove it thur science is so wrong, because God is science and more. To study the cause and effects or the nature of all things could only lead them to one conclusion. A higher intelligence.

Sorry if you think I am not being polite. I don't mean to offend anyone, and I speak not to alientate but to stand up for what I believe truth to be, even if it means to stand alone. I wouldn't want to walk ahead of you, but beside you, even if our beliefs differ, because in the end what really matters is how I related and treated you. I think people matter more than anything in this world. And I do think the world has a better potential to be a wonderful place of peace, if peoples hearts would change.

DL
I don't see the God you describe as sitting there waiting for us to wrong and judge us. I think your getting the wrong idea of God. God only wants love. How can love want you to turn away from it. It doesn't. Love would do anything in its power to make you turn to it.
I may never change your mind in the way you percieve the Catholic church to be, but remember it belongs to the people and it is the people you have a low opinion of too. I don't think to be prejudice against them is good. I am not prejudice against athiest. I respect them as persons. I wouldn't use the word arrogance to describe them. I believe when more people believe in a God or Jesus and follow the high road, the world will be a better place for all of us, because what goes up will come down back to us double in blessings.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-05-2003).]

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If you look at the God of the Jews who "IS". He is also the God of the Christians in that God the father, is also the son. The jews woriship their God who is Jesus also.

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Jews, if I'm not mistaken, do not beleive you need an intermediary (jesus) to talk to god.
Christians, if I'm not mistaken, are firm that; to enter gods kingdom you must accept jesus as your saviour.

Well somebody's heaven is going to be a relatively empty place when you consider that there are more religions and followers who do not believe that christ is the way in.

Put another way. Hitler just before death accepts jesus and goes to heaven. All the jews who died in the death camps did not.

xians use the term god & jesus not just interchangeably...but believe they are one and the same. Other religions do not.

If jesus was the 'son' of god he infact is not god therefore praying to jesus presents xians with the dilema of praying to a false god. xians manouvered around that with the introduction of what is now referred to as the 'holy trinity'.... other religions did not, have not and, will not.

Do I see the wonder and beauty of the world around me? Well Of course I do. I do not however find the need to attribute this wonderment to anything more than a wonderful bowl of very tasty comsic soup. =)

Jade....I do not understand where this "beauty" and "harmony" are supposed to be found. Throughout the animal kingdom, animals ruthlessly prey upon each other. Most of them are either cruelly killed by other animals or slowly die of hunger. For my part, I am unable to see any great beauty or harmony in the tapeworm. Let it not be said that this creature is sent as a punishment for our sins, for it is more prevalent among animals than among humans. I suppose the questioner is thinking of such things as the beauty of the starry heavens. But one should remember that stars every now and again explode and reduce everything in their neighborhood to a vague mist. Beauty, in any case, is subjective and exists only in the eye of the beholder.


another thing...God...what is it? some people say its supreme creator, others say he is ghostly holy spirit, others say its just an energy, anyone could call it whatever he thinks it is...so basicaly there is NO CORRECT ANSWEAR TO ANYTHING!

Old testament is just a Jewish mythological history, New testament has a lot of more value and meaning behind it .....but doest it means it should be fallowed as a manual?, Does it means you should do what it says literally? NO! DUMBASS!

If bible was written so long ago its so clear that people simple had no way in describing things as they can nowdays.....By going to hell they could simply mean you will have a harsh and difficult life, if you steal, killl, envy and so on....

another thing about Love...Jade all living spieces make love and love their spieces individually...they have feelings for they offsprings just as humans...we humans are no different....in My oppinion Jesus Christ simply became HUMAN...a real human we should always be..........

all animals love, revenge, envy, figh, kill to survive.........I absolutly see no sin in it.....its part of our cycle Jade...


as for why people change beliefes its that simple, they fear death, they fear unknown!

About God you yourself have no idea what it is, where it is, or even if it is!

Your oppinion, doesnt mean my oppiniont on what it could be....and Yes I see catholics quite the same as DL described.

Ruski.

Fear of the unknown after death for athiest?
Don't they believe they are going nowhere? Why should they fear dying?

Why should an atheist fear dying?
Because life is the single most precious thing.

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I am not prejudice against athiest. I respect them as persons. I wouldn't use the word arrogance to describe them.

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Uh...I beleive you already did a few posts up....

As for your not being prejduice - you have proven that statement incorrect several times in this thread. Your misinformed assumptions and your sweeping generalizations about atheists have been very apparant. I am not saying that you are wrong for doing so, or that I am in any way offended. I just want you to be a little more honest with yourself here.

*That* is the biggest problem I have with religion in general. It seems to make people so readily ignore the things in their own actions which are the very things they speak out against.

WJ slipped that in whiel I was typing. I also meant to adress that point -
Why does the lack of beleif in god preclude a fear of death?
Every species of plant and animal is instilled with an instinctive will to live and prosper, to fear or fight against death.

We are no different.

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But to put a limit on God and say he only exist in certian faiths is wrong. I would say that all religions are extensions of God.

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Except I don?t and I agree with you on this point.

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So all faiths are welcomed by God, but faith needs an authority. Isn't there a head of your religion acting on behalf of all. Isn't there someone in charge? Do you follow him or her?

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All faiths are NOT welcomed by God. If they were, he wouldn?t care who worshiped which God(s). Faith does NOT need an authority and no, there isn?t anyone at the head of my religion. I am the head of my belief as it relates to myself. There is a founder of the basic tenets of my belief, Gerald Gardner (for those who wish to believe he made it himself). I don?t follow him. He had a good idea, he laid it out for people to see and it caught on. My religion was created by a person, just like all religions. The only difference is that I understand that my religion was created by someone fallible. It grows and changes according to the needs of its followers, shapes itself to the ties and continues to enrich the lives of those that follow it in today?s society instead of making it harder for it?s followers to get along. So long as I follow the major ?rules? of the religion I am free to do as I see fit.

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Everyone is on a spiritual journey, even scientist when they are looking to have questions answered. <snippet> study the cause and effects or the nature of all things could only lead them to one conclusion. A higher intelligence.

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Actually, the only conclusion they can find from that is, they don?t know enough yet. Part of understanding that lack of knowledge is that a higher intelligence is a possible answer, whether they find it probable, logical, or neither. I don?t think you understand the scientific process, until all other options are eliminated it is foolish to believe in one to the exclusion of the others. Don?t take lack of exclusive belief to mean denial of existence. It is equally inaccurate to say that God doesn?t exist, from a scientific view anyway.


Sorry about your toes, DL? I couldn?t resist this:

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I wouldn't want to walk ahead of you?

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and

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I believe when more people believe in a God or Jesus and follow the high road

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Above, in front of? is it any different? This is a prime example of the inherent arrogance within religions that think they alone, are correct in their belief or that they are the better road (the high road) to follow. They claim to be tolerant and then try and convert you. If they are tolerant and it doesn?t matter the path you follow (because all roads lead to God)? why convert people?

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I may never change your mind in the way you perceive the Catholic church to be?

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Looks Up thread, Looks Down thread. When did we start talking about Catholics? Specifically I mean? It seems to me that DL, though he agreed with a sentiment about Catholics (sort of) , didn?t bring them up.

[EDIT]Clarification and Okay, Okay... As far downthread as one can Whilst at the bottom [EDIT]


[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-05-2003).]

I meant high road as looking up to the higher planes to spiritually lift oneself off the ground to feel like a euphoria, natural high, cloud nine without the drugs.

Hmm...Maybe an initial euphoria/high, but definataly not a lasting euphoria/high.

I'm coming into this a bit late but after some intense thought and careful consideration of all of the points and counter points regarding one of the original questions... I would have to say that, in conclusion, and not to put to fine a point on it... we christians are not able to think for ourselves... alas

. . : slicePuzzle

Belief is society's crutch.

I also stopped trying to answer questions that are impossible to answer. Remember anything that can be proven can also be unproven. Why can't we just accept what we already have? We know we have life on Earth, so stop squandering over the possibility of a creator and life after death. It's pointless, and impossible to find a right answer. Because there is no right answer, or rather universal right answer. There might be a right answer for oneself, but that doesn't mean it's the right answer for the rest of humanity. Let people come into themselves, and find their own ideas. And have lots of sex. Thanks, and let today be a prosperous one.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Belief does not have to be a crutch at all. For someone who has come to a particular belief because they have been convinced by enough (relative term I know) evidence for that belief, I don't think it is fair to call that a crutch.

I believe we should allow everyone to come to their own conclusions and that is exactly the way we operate in this place. But avoiding issues that so many of us want to know more about doesn't help anything. You acknowledge that individuals may be able to find answers to these questions but you shouldn't be ruling out the possiblity that those answers can be valid for others and even possibly for everyone. So share the findings and let's each decide with more data not less.

. . : slicePuzzle

I can't say it any better:
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate." -Dogma (the movie).

Humans have been asking the question, 'where do we come from' since we could first pick our noses. I mean it can be a fun question to tackle, but it's also pointless at the same time.

We can help each other out in finding an answer that suites our own needs, but arguing over whether or not there is a god(s) is tiresome. Nobody here is going to unearth some mindshattering evidence that undeniably proves the existence or absence of a god(s). And if we ever think we know the answer try not to believe in it too much, because chances are in a few years you will feel differently about the subject.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Before I get flamed, I want to stress that my intentions are not to thwart people from talking about religion (key word talking), but to keep the arguing and bantering to a minimum, if not an end.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

I don't consider posting thoughts, ideas, views here as arguing. I have learned much about different people here and take some of them with me when I go out in the world here. Even though I am a person of faith, I am challenged all the time. To be faithful doesn't limit the mind to experiences, new thoughts and ideas. Jesus followers don't live in a bubble. We stumble, we fall and get up again. Jesus journey to Calvery shows us we will stumble, fall and get up again to carry our crosses in life till the end of our time. This is why we try to imitate Jesus. So no, doing Jesus is not a crutch in life. Doing Jesus is a great challenge for us.

Life is a great challenge.

For everybody. Many people choose the easy ways on eveything to avoid as much of that chellenge as possible.

Facing the issues in your life, and choosing to live as a good person in the face of adversity and complication is a very challenging thing. Whether or not you have any religious feelings in regard to Jesus.

On the other hand, getting back to the earlier point of this thread, which adresses the fact that the initial post was aimed at the undeniable hoard of so-called christians who are there in lipservice at best, relying on the predetermined beliefs of the church and never exploring further, never wondering or caring about hypocrasy or the discrepancy between what they preach and how they act - for them, it is nothing but a crutch. An "out".

why atheist is afraid of death?
well its freaking that simple, he is human just like you, ok?
he might have kids...so if he is dying ...err... I think its pretty logical to fear death and unknown...if you still dont understand me then.....

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We can help each other out in finding an answer that suites our own needs, but arguing over whether or not there is a god(s) is tiresome. Nobody here is going to unearth some mindshattering evidence that undeniably proves the existence or absence of a god(s). And if we ever think we know the answer try not to believe in it too much, because chances are in a few years you will feel differently about the subject.

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actually, if your intention is just to keep arguing/bickering to a minimum you're in pretty good shape and have little to worry about, despite our differences in here we're a pretty respectful group and tend to see value in other's opinions even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

as far as believing or not believing, i don't see much point to a life without belief. it may be in God, a cause, or something else, but a passion and belief in something is what drives us. you will (and should) feel different about the subject at some point, we're all human and that's how we work, testing and exploring our ideas. that doesn't mean its wrong to try tho.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

quote:

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On the other hand, getting back to the earlier point of this thread, which adresses the fact that the initial post was aimed at the undeniable hoard of so-called christians who are there in lipservice at best, relying on the predetermined beliefs of the church and never exploring further, never wondering or caring about hypocrasy or the discrepancy between what they preach and how they act - for them, it is nothing but a crutch.

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DL
I wonder why it should bother you how some so-called christians act. How could you possibly know the heart of a christian?

Growinp up, were you a rebellious teen? Did you have a good relationhip with your father growing up? Where you always respectful and honored his household? Did you do some things that he would of disapproved of that maybe he never found out about? Maybe no matter what you did wrong, you were punished, but he was always there for you. Today, do you care what thinks about you. This is how christians see the father figure of Jesus. Christians are not perfect and I admit some are condesending and not acting like faithful believers, but at least they are trying.

What makes you think Christians are not exploring and searching their faith even today. On what basis do you make this assumption? Or are you just positng different views that are not your own so you get get a rise out of posters here?

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hoard of so-called christians who are there in lipservice at best

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now, as you should be able to see, I very deliberately pointed that statement at a group of people who I thought we were all in agreement existed - those that claim to be something but are not...those who claim to believe something simply because they feel they should 'pick a side' so to speak.

Are you actually trying to say that people like that don't exist? Or just that they don't exist on the 'christian' side of things?

I really have a hard time understanding sometimes if you are in fact part of the same conversation as the rest of us are.

I am not saying that in spite or rudeness....I am truly at a loss....

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Christians are not perfect and I admit some are condesending and not acting like faithful believers, but at least they are trying.

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Jade... it's this bit; '...at least they're trying.' I have difficulty understanding.

It's the same as saying ".. they meant well." That thinking far too easily dismisses, and makes acceptable, behavior or acts that would otherwise not be tolerated...at least by most people.
But because they are/were trying or meant well, in the name of their religion, you not only absolve that individual of any responsibility for their actions you at the same time condone that behaviour when you say..."at least they are trying."

the path to hell is paved with good intentions...

Here, Here nojive. Not only that but, in a broader sense, that statement implies that the rest of us (non-christians) aren't trying at all. That is where the inherent conceit and condescention comes from. The religion is geared towards it.

Whether you try and convert me or chastise me for my beliefs or not, christians are taught to believe that they are going the "right" way and non-christians are not. Tolerance is not acceptence. Tolerance is a stalling action until things start going the "right" way. it's the same as saying, "They'll come around... eventually. Even if I have to help".



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-08-2003).]

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But because they are/were trying or meant well, in the name of their religion, you not only absolve that individual of any responsibility for their actions you at the same time condone that behaviour when you say..."at least they are trying."

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negative. people are absolutely responsible for their actions no matter what their faith, anyone trying to tell you differently is reading a different bible or selling you something. being responsible and being forgiven are two totally different things.

its hard for me to get into debate on things like this because i totally know where you guys are coming from, i know the exact type of person you're talking about because i've often encountered them myself both as a christian and before i was. i can't stand them either, largely because they reflect negatively on me and create preconceptions that i've got to fight. the thing is that there's a very real power in God for those that truly follow Him that i just can't convey in text. i was at camp with our youth ministry a few weeks ago, and i saw an absolute punk kid, who at age 14 has a probation officer and was looking at going to boot camp rather than his freshman year of high school, literally transformed. he IS a different person now, in attitude and action, and i can't attribute that to anything i can rationalize as a logically thinking person. that's all God.

each person's decision here is their own and neither bugs nor i nor anyone else here would want to force you into thinking or believing anything. we just want to share something we've found that we think is so awesome its worth sharing. like vanilla coke, but better

chris (waiting for the 'but i don't like vanilla coke' comments )


KAIROSinteractive

Fig - I understand that *you* feel that way about responsibility for your actions, and about your beliefs, but it certainly seems that Jade is of a different opinion.

Of course Jade is also very fond of *saying* that she feels one way about something (because that's the "right" way to feel about it) and then by here own words proving otherwise later on or prior to the statement.

Jade's statement, as nojive and GD have mentioned, implies that simply by being a christian a person is doing a good thing and is "trying" and is excused for poor behaviour, and that someone who is not christian is not.

Which is pure fantasy.

{edit - oh, and I have to say, honestly, that vanilla coke sucks! }




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-08-2003).]

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being responsible and being forgiven are two totally different things.

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Taking it from there.

A person is convicted and sentenced to death for murdering a pedophile. Both are Xian's.

jesus died for your sins. correct? jesus forgives all xian sinners correct?

So what we have here is personal responsibility out the window. No matter how abhorent you find the crime and the criminal to be, all that matters to a xian is getting into the 'kingdom.'Correct?
The way to achieve this is ask forgiveness.

"Lord" sez the pedophile "please forgive me for what I have done.
"Lord" sez his convicted soon-to-be dead himself, murderer.." Please forgive me for what I have done.
The lord jesus pronounces "Forgiven."

And so what you have now is these two guys up there in gods house with everything hunky-dorey because they asked and were granted foregiveness. There's no responsibility what-so-ever.

Now you as an individual, as DL intimated, Bugs and many others I'm sure may accept personal responsibility for your actions but the bottom line is... you really don't have to because when you ask... you will be forgiven for everything and anything you've ever done.

If you do not believe the above senario you are not a xian. I don't know what you are but if that's not your basic belief you are not a xian. Jesus forgives all. Just waaaaay to convenient.

Haven't tried the vanilla coke yet but I think I would much prefer the original paint and bug remover. =) I quite like the way the initial blast takes off the top of your head and makes your eyes water. *o*

Actually, you have it all wrong. You've pretty much described your average catholic (from knowing Catholics) (nothing against Catholics though, but that seems to be their attitude). Maybe your below-average Christian also, but in general, a Christian would be truly "right" with God if they really wanted to improve. If they had no intention to stop, then, well, I'm not too sure, but if they really felt bad about what they did (like a Pedophile) and wanted to change their life around, then I think that they would be truly forgiven.

You couldn't go on a murderous rampage and half-assedly say: "Dear God, please forgive me, Thanks" and seriously mean it. Forgivness requires two people, in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 08-09-2003).]

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Forgivness requires two people, in my opinion.

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Yes well that's the rub isn't cfb. We're not talking about two people we're talking about ONE person and their one god. An all forgiving god. And this 'all forgiving god' is for 'all' flavors of xianity not just catholics. You cannot disagree because there is no more basic tenant of xianity. Well yes you can of course disagree but like I said that's something other than xianity. Forgiveness is for the lord alone.

While responsibility may be taught in the bible, you may in fact assume that responsibility but responsiibility is not a requirement whereas 'asking forgiveness is' ... and as a xian you are firm and unwavering in your belief that jesus will forgive you even if right now you beleive that in your opinion 'forgiveness requires two people.'

=)


Almost forgot.

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You couldn't go on a murderous rampage and half-assedly say: "Dear God, please forgive me, Thanks" and seriously mean it.

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To you it may be half-assed but all god hears is 'please forgive me' ..at least I haven't yet met a xian who's told me he knows of a case where jesus said...' naaa sorry buddy that was too much even for me.'

Jailhouse conversions also come to mind. =)


[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

I meant two people, like, you and God.

If your not truly sorry, I really don't beleive that you're truly forgiven. God is always going to forgive you, if your willing to change, or at least want to change. But, not if you are using "forgivness" as a cheap way into Heaven.

<bg> I'm typin' you're postin'

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God is always going to forgive you, if your willing to change, or at least want to change.

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I think you just made my point...or did I miss something?? =)

I don't think I've got this wrong but gods forgiveness is not limited to a willingness to change. gods forgiveness when requested covers everything from murder to debauchery...or having fantasies about your neighbours good looking wife...or husband. <lol>
Prior 'acts' of whatever if you will.


[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

Thats pretty much true about being sorry and forgiven. If I recall it right the christian bible says we will be forgiven 7x77. But the sevens represent fullness. After cleansing, we are in a state of grace if we are truly sorry for our wrongdoings. Its like our souls are in their infancy clean and pure. When your body is really filthy dirty because you haven't bathed in a year, you would pretty much stink. You neglect the cleansing of your body and who would want to be around you. You bathe daily and keep youself smelling clean with soap and deodorant. We also think of the souls of ourselves that lives forever, whereas the body turns to dust. Its like the soul gets filthy dirty full of the rot of sin and it piles up and gets overloaded so we cleanse it out and become clean with God. We don't want to die in this state of impurity. To me thats the beauty of christianity, you can become born again over and over and have so many chances to become right with God. The mercy due to the love of a God for his familty is boundless.

To me that's the reason that christianity is pointless. And in particular Catholicism, as the catholics seem to absue this notion more than most....

Doing wrong, and being forgiven is one thing. Making gross abuses again and again and being able to simply "wash it away" is nothing a built in 'out'.

You've killed, you've negelected, you've abused, molested, but at the last minute you say "gee, that was wrong, I'm sorry....."

Too bad. Burn.

Being sorry is not enough to make up for the horror that you cause others.

And to feel that you have the power to say that 'god' forgives and so everything is ok is the absolute pinnacle of arrogance, lack of personal responsibility, and outright evil if you ask me.


{{edit

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Jailhouse conversions also come to mind. =)

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Yup.

How many people ahve you seen who once on death row all of a sudden miraculously 'find god'?

And then think they no longer deserve to be put to death because of it?

They way I see it - great, you;ve found god and he forgives you? Then why are you so scared to go and meet him? =)

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-09-2003).]

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To me thats the beauty of christianity, you can become born again over and over and have so many chances to become right with God.

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Jade: That's quite an astonishing statement. I'm still trying to gather myself here.

substitute 'born again' with ANYof the sins from covet to murder. You're saying as long as I keep trying to 'become right with God.' I can keep right on a sin'in. That's something alright but I'm not so sure I'd be callin' it 'beauty.'

Well, thats a grey area isn't it. In general, the Christians that I see really don't do that. The Bible (I hate saying that: "The Bible says...") says that you should strive to be like God. Striving to be like God would mean that, although your going to mess up, your objective is to try and adhere to a righteous life. But, since your going to mess up, at least you can be forgiven.

Think about it this way: If you ask someone for forgivness, and you said it cynically/with an edge, would they really beleive you? No. Same with God. The "beauty" of it, as you put it, is that if you are truly sorry and willing to change, then you'll be forgiven.

Grey area? No.

The problem here, is a very basic one -

theory vs. application

You can talk all you want about what the bible says, about how it should be interpreted, about how christians "should" act.

But if that't not the way it works in practice, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

=)