Topic awaiting preservation: Doing Jesus

Don?t do Jesus!

WARNING AHEAD

Side Affects: Side affects of doing Jesus include various personality and perspective changes ranging from massive euphoria to constant attempts to cleanse your self. Doing Jesus does not allow you to think and constantly blocks the brain of all independent thought. Other side effects include trying to perfect your self of all things straying away from Jesus. These are all long term side effects that stay with you for the rest of your use of Jesus.

Health Risks: Health Risks may include ingestion of more of The Body of Jesus, and occasionally The Blood of Jesus. There are no long term health risks other than repeating the above almost every Sunday.

Other Names: Jesus, Christ, The Holy One, Savior, and The Lord.

Parents Read: Jesus has formed a massive cult of followers ranging from all ages. Some children are even born under the influence of Jesus. 24/25 Americans have done or are still under the influence of Jesus.

Cost: Almost all Jesus doers pay ranging from their soul to their ability to think for themselves, some even pay their life.

Jesus is probably the most growing delusional drug, lowering the intelligence of many people everyday. Jesus can be very persuasive and convincing. Doing Jesus provides hope for your lives. It is highly advised that if you try Jesus at some point in your life that you talk it over with individuals that you love and trust and that have had some kind of thought over why they have chosen their stance on Jesus. If you do not take your decision seriously you could be making a decision that will haunt you for the rest of eternity.


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Prying open my third eye.

InSiDeR: I'm sure quite a few people might find that offensive but not as many as those who wouldn't find it very funny though

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Well if someone is offended by it I apologuise. And if someone who is a mad sci and is offended by it, feel free to lock it .

While I agree on the fact that it's not all that funny, if anyone actually finds that *offensive* then they've got bigger problems than being offended

DL: Ahhhhh but we aren't the ones who are going to be offended by it

InSiDeR: No need to lock it for not being funny - just consider it a bit of a heckle from the audience

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

:razz:

Emp - obviously.

Actually I find Christian jokes to be pretty offensive when they talk about people of faith not being able to think for themselves. That's ignorant and/or just a plain hateful thing to say. Pretty offensive is a very relative term though. How can something I consider to be the fruit of ignorance be very offensive? I just take offense to meanness. Precisely why I've never lumped InSiDeR into the retarded lazy white upper middle class haxor leet dillhole wannabe category like so many others rushed to do. (No, that wasn't self righteousness, it was spiteful meanness for the threadstarter. I now consider the aforementioned rushers to be quick character studies, kudos.)

Jason

edit: typo'd "ignorance"

[This message has been edited by JKMabry (edited 07-30-2003).]

Maybe that should be a topic for debate.
Can Christians think for themselves?
I've had some pretty interesting, non-lethal discussions about it.

Can people that watch TV think for themselves? There's a debate for you.

Jason

Well, I can think for myself, and as most people know around here, I'm Christian.

Can people who use photoshop really think for themselves? Or are all their apparently original creative acts really confined within extremely narrow and pre-defined parameteres. Just like being a Christian in fact. Sure Christians can think for themselves, they have just chosen to think and act a certain way.

I certainly see a lot more happy and contented Christans in this world then non-Christians. Maybe choosing to not let your free-thinking and acting mind run riot is a good thing. I see the results in this world of that free-thinking you promote... and frankly, what a mess we have made of everything. There is freedom and happiness within discipline.

For some reason people have always jibed them for being this way. Well they have chosen to believe and obey their god. I wonder why that would bother you so much. That's like picking on the guy in school, with the glasses who was a bit of a square, always smart, obedient... was such an annoying goodie, goodie, and always did his homework and got all the answers right. There was never anything wrong with him. The problem was and apparently still is with you.

Offensive? nah.. Ignorant? ..definately.

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 07-30-2003).]

*looks up at Rameseseees*

ahem, what are you doing on my ISP??

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Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight.

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Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the light with all your heart for when you flip the switch you know it will come on. It always has before, that's the way it goes.

And God doesn't burn out

Not saying I know completely how God, or a light switch and bulb work, but I've tested them both and know how they work enough to have faith in them both. I don't lean on my own understanding of them, I lean on the fact that they've always worked.

I can study God or electrical circuits and find out more about them. As I do I study and test, the more comfortable I become with the object of my study, the more I understand how it works.

Jason

CountefeitBacon:

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Well, I can think for myself, and as most people know around here, I'm Christian.

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Maybe you just think you can think for yourself Nah, just kidding... But a question here is, what does being a christian mean in your case? Do you ever consciously break the laws of your religion when your free thinking tells you it´s reasonable - or are there never even conflicts like that?


XPirex:

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I certainly see a lot more happy and contented Christans in this world then non-Christians.Maybe choosing to not let your free-thinking and acting mind run riot is a good thing.

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Maybe. Freedom can be a burden. To choose a very cheap example: I can see how I would have been happier in school when, instead of thinking "why does this guy get all the girls", I would have thought "You´re going straight to hell, sinner". Or how it would be easier to accept you´re going to die someday, when you have faith in going to heaven.
Personally, I favorize the way of going through intellectual and emotional development to impose limitations on the self, over the blind obedience that stems from being brought up with rules that are not to be questioned.

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I see the results in this world of that free-thinking you promote... and frankly, what a mess we have made of everything.

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And I guess you have also seen some of the results of blind faith - if not consult a history book - it´s a two-edged sword, just like freedom.

The idea of generalizing one or two billion christians is ridiculous anyway.

IME there are lots of people who say they´re christian and believe in god, maybe they wear a little cross on a necklace, or even go to church every sunday because that´s how it´s done in the family, but it has no significant impact on their daily thoughts and actions...

On the other extreme there are the zealots, fortunately much smaller in numbers, for whom "doing jesus" has become some kind of prescription drug to keep their psyche stable. People who, when asked for their opinion on something, answer with a bible verse and think that this is proof beyond all doubt... [edit]quisja, this wasn´t directed at you. You posted while I was typing.[/edit]

And of course, as I have come to learn there are also perfectly reasonable, nice, educated people, who have put a lot of thought into what they believe in, and are always ready to critically discuss their religion and it´s implications with anyone who´s interested.

Most people will be somewhere inbetween...
Apart from the fanatics, the ability and the will to free thinking may be dependent on other things - or as JKMabry wisely put it:

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Can people that watch TV think for themselves? There's a debate for you.

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[edit]Oh, wait. I watch TV and I can think for myself. So that settles that [/edit]

Peace out.

[This message has been edited by MW (edited 07-30-2003).]

The thing is....this is being made into far more than it should.

This is a harmless silly joke. Was it funny? No.

Was it ignorant? Perhaps. Not overly so.

Was it offensive? Can't see how it could be.

It seems to me that anytime somone decides to poke a little fun at christianity, it turns into a big issue (not just here, in real life too...). Islam, buddhism, scientology....they're all open targets. But, god forbid, some poke some easy light hearted fun at christians....

X

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I certainly see a lot more happy and contented Christans in this world then non-Christians.

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Bullshit. It is that very mindset with ALL religions that I find arrogant to the extreme. Notice please I said "ALL."

As a Christian myself, I didn't take offense nor do I think it is ignorance. Just a view from someone who chooses not to believe in the Christ. With the blood and wine part it seem more aimed at catholics.

I know the bible has a verse that says " the path to heaven is narrow ", but that doesn't mean Christians are narrow minded or not open minded. Some great thinkers are believers. I am sure some free-thinkers found Christianity



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 07-30-2003).]

The fact that a believer is "happier" than a non-believer is no more proof that god(s) exist(s) than the fact that a drunken person is "happier" than a sober person proves beer is sacred.

... Or something like that... I don't remember exactly how it goes.

BTW, about the original post, it may not be funny (largely because it's not original, both the content and the format have been done for everything out there), but I wouldn't even start to consider it a legitimate argument for any kind of religious debate (unless you're trying to see who can come up with the most ridiculous argument).
Don't get me wrong, I am very anti-religious, but the comment about people not thinking for themselves can't be attributed towards a particular religious group. I've seen approximately the same percentage of people who choose not to think for themselves to the fullest extent possible no matter how you divide people up into groups. Be it religious, political (although I haven't looked at this one much), race, nationality, or anything else you can think of.

Just my 2.5 cents

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Maybe you just think you can think for yourself Nah, just kidding... But a question here is, what does being a christian mean in your case? Do you ever consciously break the laws of your religion when your free thinking tells you it´s reasonable - or are there never even conflicts like that?

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What does being a Christian mean to me?

Well, to me it means that I beleive that their is God (and only one God), he had a son, Jesus, who died "for my sins," and that all can be forgiven through him. I try to live my life in a way that would imitate God, which I of course fail miserably at.

Do you ever consciously break the laws of your religion when your free thinking tells you it´s reasonable - or are there never even conflicts like that?


Hahaha...Of course their are. All the time. I'm always rationalizing "un-Christian" behavior and thinking all the time. On another note, I wouldn't blindly follow anything, so why should religion be any diffrent. It hasn't blinded me to anything, or made me "not think," it has merely changed my viewpoint on some topics, and some beliefs. Obviously, something that would blatantly oppose my religion I would try and research the best I could so that I'd know why a Christian wouldn't agree with it. If I don't find any reason not to beleive in it, then I will.

*refers to InSiDeR's original post

maybe whoever wrote this meant it to be sarcastic and derogatory
but it is so full of truth to a real truth-seeker that it is more sad than funny

hahaha!

*jeremiah was a bullfrog

I have just made the free thinking decision to go to the store and buy myself some chicken. Yeh this feels good... must do this again... soon

"If I don't find any reason not to beleive in it, then I will."

Personally, I wait for something to be proven to me. Just because there's no reason to *not* believe that the universe is one of a billion universes encased in another few billion universes etc doesn't mean I believe that. Nor do I believe beyond a doubt that there is a god, personally. I call myself atheist, because I feel that nothing has proven to me that there is a god. Then again, nothing has proven to me there isn't, so until then, I say "screw it all" and wait.

Way back when, people believed the earth was flat. "Why the heck not, there's no reason it couldn't be!" (point is, "god" is out of our frame of observation at the moment (imo) and so we really can't say a damn thing about his existence. Sure sure, people can talk about miracles and all of that stuff, but I won't get into that.)

I was not referring to 'blind faith'..I'm sure many of these people have givin much thought and deliberation to their beliefs. But I don't want to get into this fruitless debate.

I'm gonna eat my chicken and have an ice cold German beer.

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 08-03-2003).]

I sometimes don't understand how athiest choose not to see the beauty of the world and not know that we are a small part of a larger picture of a greatness. If you look at the earth from space, its so beautiful with it blue oceans, green valleys and hills, terrains, and great high mountians and its thousands of landscapes that take your breath away. Not to mention the beauty of the ice & snow when it covers parts of the earth. We truly were meant to live in a paradise. We earthlings have taken the earth for granted. We are polluting beauty that was meant for us. So if a God who happens to call himself Jesus is responsible for all this, what is wrong with believeing in him? Who else besides Jesus has proclaimed what he has? Who could wear his shoes up till now and what other great person should we follow in example?



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-01-2003).]

I just created the alchemical formula for turning lead into gold... But I can't prove it to you even though lots of people have written about it. You just have to believe. Seems a little far fetched? What you have described, Jade, is something that everyone can see. We just don't see the link between Jesus and this beautiful world we are in a hurry to fill. It's a possibility, I concede that, but it can't be proven. I don't need to associate everything wondrous with an ethereal power. Knowing nature is enough for me.

In regards to the "non-thinking" Xians. I don't think the direction of the humor above (Yes, I found it funny) is pointed at the lack of thought in Xians lives, but the lak of challenge they present themselves. I challenge my faith every chance I get. I look at things and how they works and how my faith deals with them. If ever I find something that outright goes against my beliefs but I find that it fits in the reality of my life... Guesss what? I'll change faiths. You can do that you know. If you never challenge yourself how do you know you're REALLY following your faith? How do you deepen your beliefs and strengthen your faith, not only in what you believe but, in yourself. I think this is where the tidbit atop the thread is going. In many of the arguments here and IRL it degrades to "because the Bible told me so" or "Just because" If you can't answer a challenge to your faith either you aren't versed enough in that faith and need these challenges to deepen that faith, or you're following the wrong faith. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer as long as you take that knowledge and learn from it. That's why I challenge my faith, so I can learn what it is to be a follower of the belief and deepen my respect for the things I believe in. I accept the possiblities of things I don't necessarily believe in when I can't discount them or prove them. I might not choose to believe them, but I understand that they are there and can try and find out how they fit in my belief. Faith is not/should not be a static thing. It should change and grow, evolve (as it were) as you learn new things and challenge yourself.

This is how I see some Xians as "non-thinking". They aren't stupid or unable to make their own choices, they just don't know how to believe.




[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-01-2003).]

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I sometimes don't understand how athiest choose not to see the beauty of the world and not know that we are a small part of a larger picture of a greatness

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Now *that* was a very ignorant statement.

What gives you the idea that being an atheist means not seeing such things?

Just because I don't happen to think that this "larger picture" is a god of any sort has nothing to do with my appreciation of the beauty of the world and the universe that holds it.

In fact, quite frankly, I think that by removing the limit of dogmatic religious teaching I see a far *bigger* picture.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty confident that it's not jsut a bunch of atheists who are polluting the planet
I've seen a christian or two driving cars before




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-01-2003).]

question for GD then, and also in reference to an earlier comment by MW:

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In regards to the "non-thinking" Xians. I don't think the direction of the humor above (Yes, I found it funny) is pointed at the lack of thought in Xians lives, but the lak of challenge they present themselves. I challenge my faith every chance I get. I look at things and how they works and how my faith deals with them. If ever I find something that outright goes against my beliefs but I find that it fits in the reality of my life... Guesss what? I'll change faiths. You can do that you know. If you never challenge yourself how do you know you're REALLY following your faith? How do you deepen your beliefs and strengthen your faith, not only in what you believe but, in yourself.

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Personally, I favorize the way of going through intellectual and emotional development to impose limitations on the self, over the blind obedience that stems from being brought up with rules that are not to be questioned.

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what exactly makes you think that i, or JK, or CFB, bugs, etc., DON'T question and test things? sure there are some christians who follow blindly, but i'm quite confident that most people (whether religious or not) are sheep. its amazing to me how many people who are so set on not following a religion because they want to "think for themselves" are simply following the crowd and what Mtv says...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

GD

I can understand your approach and in a way we are the same in searching for truth. For some who feel they have met truth, they are seeking fulfillment of the truth in Jesus. I've heard to be near fulfillment is to be near ecstasy, sort of like being in a perpetual state of holy shock. To Christians, Jesus is a like big puzzle given to us to piece together. Some of us take years to figure out, maybe a lifetime, some not. Christians believe the nature of all things are due to God. So saying Christians can't think for themselves is so wrong. The God in us propels and compels us to seek truth with thought, sometimes away from God in hopes that we come to the conclusion ourselves to know who God is.

DL

I didn't mean athiest only pollute the earth. I know we all do. I was speaking as mankind in general.

In eliminating dogmatic religions, I am curious to know what "your far larger picture is"?



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-01-2003).]

Jade & Fig, to quote myself -

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This is how I see some Xians as "non-thinking". They aren't stupid or unable to make their own choices, they just don't know how to believe.

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I didn't specify an entire group, just some of the Xians I know and have met. Nor did I specify anyone in particular. If you have such a high opinion of yourselves that you assume I am talking about you when, in fact, I am speaking in general I can't do anything about that. The fact that there are those of you here that will actually discuss things here, proves that not all Xians are the same. It also isn't representative of the general Xian populous. To follow in your vein, Fig. What makes you think I'm following everyone else and watch MTV?

Nor did I say that Xians can't think for themselves. My experience with Xianity is that the rules aren't to be questioned. You aren't supposed to change things. You are supposed to follow what is taught by the church. The church is the only authority, beyond God, that can determine the direction of the faith. This is the primary reason that I am not Xian. Maybe you should finish posts before reacting, eh?

Jade - As mentioned above, I didn't say that Xians can't think for themselves. If Xians are so open to learning and facing challenges to their faith, why do they react so poorly to discussions? Why do most (just for you, Fig) Xians refuse to bring any information from outside of the faith that supports the faith? It has less to do with challenging yourself than not seeing someone admit they don't know and trying to learn from that. When i state something and you can't relate it to your faith, instead of knee-jerking and say "just becuase" or something similar. Say " I don't know" and then go find out how it fits into your faith. Then come back with your answer and help me learn something too. This is the growth that I speak of.

There are plenty of Xians here who do this. So don't get all high and mighty that "not all Xians are like that". Well... No shit, Sherlock. The problem is that most of them seem to be. Everyone knows this, including other Xians. So insted of believing the worsst in someone why don't you assume that we're both talking about the "sheep" and alleviate some of this BS, okay?

Jade - Well, first tell me how you come to the conclusion that being an atheist means you don't appreciate the beauty of nature, or appreciate the fact that we are but a small part of a vast (limitless?) entity.

Religion tends to stress far too much self-importance on our species, and removes that sense of being so small and part of something so vast. How can you feel so small while at the same time expressing that 'god' finds you so important as to be involved in your daily life, or that 'god' even gives a hoot about our species at all?


{{edit - damn you GD, that's the 2nd time in a row you slipped a lenghty post in while I was typing

However, to add a little to GD's point - you may recall, Jade, that several months ago when there were all of the religious threads going around, I asked you a fair number of questions regarding your faith, and how you could resolve certain things that for me didn't make any sense, and about things that I found contradictory, and you basically refused to answer *any* of them. In fact you would usually respond with some sort of snide remark, or accusations of "attacking" you.
I think that is really a prime example of what GD is referring to.
}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-01-2003).]

no need to get defensive, and i did read your whole post GD, and i realized you weren't talking necessarily about me, just as i wasn't referring to you with the Mtv crowd. my comment was more aimed towards MW's comment. we all tend to unfairly generalize, the idiots stand out about the crowd and we remember them as how "those people" are. i'll forever hate texas tech fans for this very reason

you are grossly mistaken on your observations about "the church" tho. that may be true in something like the catholic church where the vatican is the be-all-end-all authority, but please don't take the catholic church as representative of christianity. there are some basic rules laid out in christianity as they are with any religion or faith, but its thru personal exploration that i develop my relationship with God, the key part of christianity that so many miss out on. i'll consult those older and wiser than myself when i have questions, and some things are quite clear cut whether people want to admit to themselves or not. however, my final decision on my actions is between myself and God.

chris



KAIROSinteractive

DL-44

I apologize to the extreme for my lack of expaining my faith in the past. Seeing how this has come up from you B-4. I sense your still a little miffed at me maybe. Can I make a wrong a right with you? I don't want to be ever accused of refusing to defend faith or explain it.

I don't think myself super knowledgable in matters of faith. Who knows everything about everything in general? Nobody. Nobody living on the planet for sure. For someone to make a statement that there is no God is guilty of thinking they know more that the rest of us. Or for that matter to even state Jesus is not God or responsible for our existance is lacking because it can' be proven that God isn't. No one can prove Jesus wasn't God. Who has the mindset to prove no God and where are the tools one uses to disprove it.

In regard to the nature and beauty of things of our beautiful planet, how can one not look at the awe of it and not know there is a doer of all. Humanity and all that it entails in itself is beautiful. When you look out at the stars, doesn't the yearning ever pull you like gravity, but its gravity of the soul. Don't you question why you are and wonder where you are going. How can an athiest appreciate the beauty of the world and think so highly of himself that he can judge where it all comes from.

I have noticed a lot of scientist or scholars are athiest. I think this stems from the fact that they feel so well educated and above the norm that they become their on little Gods. Out of all twelve apostles of Jesue there was only one scholar, it was Judas.

One looks at the world and doesn't believe in a "doer" just like I look at the world, Jade. I look out into the world and see so amny wonderful things that encompass many lifetimes worth of learning. Things that are wonderous and stunning and pull at the very essence of my being. I am connected to all of the everything through our mutual spirits. Myself to the stone, the water, and the sky, etc. etc. I don't profess to know more than you or less than you. one can see and appreciate beauty in all of it's forms without understanding it or knowing where it came from. No one knows where love comes from and yet it is one of the most buestiful and wonderful experiences I have ever had. I attribute it to my spiritual connection to my wife. I'm sure you attribute your love of others to God. Why on earth is it so difficult to step outside of yourself and see as other might see? Until you can do that you'll never undersand someone elses point of view. Your acceptance of other people's points of view just becomes meaningless words.

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I have noticed a lot of scientist or scholars are athiest. I think this stems from the fact that they feel so well educated and above the norm that they become their on little Gods.

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This, I think, has some merit but, that is an awfully large brush to paint with. Not to mention that there are plenty of people who refuse to believe in something that can't be proven to them. Faith is not a mystery to scientists either. Many scientists believe things that go against the flow of their peers, both religious and scientific. So we know scientists are capable of faith, and are capable of faith amongst people they consider to be their equals... so... that doesn't leave much in your arguement, does it?

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How can an athiest appreciate the beauty of the world and think so highly of himself that he can judge where it all comes from.

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Judging where it came from? You're the one that is part of an organization that purports to *know* exactly where and how it all came from, and has the audacity to try converting the rest of the known wolrd to their singular belief system, many times through violent or abusive means. But atheists are the ones who think too highly of themselves??

Scientists tend to try to figure things out. When they don't know, they study, experiment, explore. When they think they've figured it out, they share their knowledge. That is not say that there aren't scientists that suffer from severly inflated egos, but that is found in any walk of life.

I think you need to take a *serious* look at that statement Jade....

It begs me to ask - how can a christian appreciate the beauty of the world, and yet think so highly of themsleves to propose that "god" made such beauty for us?

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or someone to make a statement that there is no God is guilty of thinking they know more that the rest of us

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And in the same manner, the person who claims to know that "god" exists is guilty of the same thing.

Of course, I have *always* said that I am open to the possibility that I am wrong in my belief, but that I "know" that there is no god as surely as you "know" that there is one....



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-02-2003).]

jade: you really need to study your subject matter a bit more before making statements of fact that are easily disproved by a, as you called it, "scholar"

it doesn't really matter to me what you believe in or, how much faith you have in what you believe. to quote; "faith without works is dead". and what is work pertaining to faith? the struggle or, should i say quest, to assure yourself (not someone else) that your faith is not simlply an attempt to justify yourself against the ideals that you have been taught or have come to believe in. to quote, again, "if a man has faith, let him have it unto himself".

~ the farther you travel down the narrow path, the broader it becomes ~


jeremiah was a bullfrog

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I sometimes don't understand how athiest choose not to see the beauty of the world and not know that we are a small part of a larger picture of a greatness....In regard to the nature and beauty of things of our beautiful planet, how can one not look at the awe of it and not know there is a doer of all.

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An atheist can look at a flower and say, "Wow, the universe really created something beautiful here." (or "that's a nice flower" with no further thought on the matter.)

A believer in a and/or many gods can look at that same flower and say, "Wow, God created something beautiful here." (or "that's a nice flower" with no further thought on the matter.)

Or your average homeowner can look at that self-same flower and say "Get that ugly dandelion out of my yard!"

The fact of the matter is that whether you believe in a diety or not has nothing to do with appreciation of beauty in the world.

Awe comes from understanding that one is part of a vast universe (or multiverse if that floats your boat), small and part of something much grander than life on this little - albeit pretty - planet.

My $0.02 on that...

I was reading an article about death the other day and thought the comments were interesting from a priest name Father Corapi. In his experiences giving last rites, athiest say goodbye to their beliefs and ask to see a priest or minister, etc. when they are on their death bed. They accept God and some even the savior, Jesus Christ. Why do they fear death or what in their human nature gives into believing that there is a God b-4 their end. What do you think compels them to believe?
In Christianity, the belief is that if someone spends his whole lifetime doing his own will and has as many sins as the blades of grass on the entire earth and when he is dying asks for the mercy of God, even then God at that time doesn't abandon him, because God is so rich in mercy.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-04-2003).]

I'm sure many do.

Many people of any faith throughout the ages have, in the face of adversity or uncertainty, turned away from their beleifs.

That is, once again, a statement that is reflective of human nature in general.

I would still like to hear how you reconcile the first point in my previous post....you made a rather rash statement, and it really calls for some explaining.

What does that have to do with anything, Jade? Because some atheists begin to doubt their convictions as they near death has nothing to do with what we've been talking about. But to follow this to its end. They probably don't accept God or Jesus into their life just before they die. Some may, but most probably don't. It a last ditch effort to alleviate the "What If" that most people have. They are partaking in Paschal's Wager and losing by it, in my opinion.

Now, I ask you these simple questions:

Why are so many christians afraid of death when their redemption is assured if they are sincere in their belief and their request for mercy?

Why have some christians (pardon my lack of reference) revoke their belief in God on their death beds? I mean... lets get specific here. General broad sweeping statements don't alleviate the weight of what you said earlier.

What is it about Deity that makes atheists unable to live their lives like you or I? You see, it has nothing to do with your God or my gods. It has to do with deity (ANY deity). So what is it about being a child of nature that makes their lives so different? I am inclined to say nothing, I want to hear your answer.

[EDIT] Dangit, DL... It's your turn to beat me in, I see...[/EDIT]



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-04-2003).]

DL

Well, I have to admit in the truth of the faith I believe in. It is one truth and the only truth and that is Jesus Christ. But this is not arrograce and only if you are on the outside looking in, it seems that way. The God in Jesus Christ is for all, not for some. How people percieve to see their God is still Jesus. Even if he is viewed as the God of the Muslims, Jews, Baptist, Mormans, etc. Its not like "Oh I have the right God and you don't". God is all these faces and comes to all differently. If you look at the God of the Jews who "IS". He is also the God of the Christians in that God the father, is also the son. The jews woriship their God who is Jesus also. So we are all looking in the same direction. But God came down and gave us a blueprint to follow and maybe some of us can't follow it the way, but all is not lost.

Don't you believe in the political system of government we have. If you didn't maybe you would want to leave the USA.
If you do believe in it, you know it s best form of government for the people to grow, live, prosper and be happy in. The important thing is it has organized structure. From your neighborhood policeman all the way to the president of the USA. You adhere to its US laws, you pay taxes and enjoy your freedoms. For you maybe its the best way to live and you think all countries should live as we do, in a democracy. Would this be arrogrance? You trust in your lawmakers to pass the right laws for the good of all people. You may even have pride in your country and honor it.


So in the spiritual, the Catholic church operates for the good of all n same way, but she doesn't operate only in the physical, but also in the mystical in everyday life. She doesn't only have the good of her intentions in her system of religion, she works outside of it to complete herself to become one with all faiths.

In the path to becoming the unified faith of Christ, she has fallen & shaken through human error or sin, but the rock on which she stands will forever be solid. The reasoning for this is because God guides it, not man. When we make mistakes, don't we learn from it? Should we be crucified forever because of it? Shouldn't we be forgiven? Is this God working in our lives. Its the same concept with the church. Can't you forgive her.

GD

I know many faiths believe that "once saved, always saved". But Catholics don't. We don't know our whole earthly life where we are going. We feel only God knows, or else why should we be born then if we are already going to heaven? Why live your whole life good then if its a sure shoe in. I think when you ask God for mercy, of course it depends on what good grade your heart gets. I think its the state of your loving heart. I know most people are afraid to die, because they are afraid of pain, but once they make their peace with God or themselves or other people, they usually long for thier mothers and want to go "home".

I am sure some people revoke their faith in good on their death bed too. Maybe they are empty even at death. Maybe they are in so much pain they feel how could a god make me go thru this. Where is God? I really don't know the answers. Who does.
Catholics don't have all the anwsers that would satisfy even themselves. But they seek the truth, and become all the wiser as opposed to one who never seeks in it. From the famous bible verse which is so very true "Seek and ye shall find me"

Don't you feel we all are beings of nature? The nature of a God is in all of us. To me God is nature and works thru it. God doesn't have to perform some miracle in the sky and part the waters for you to see who God is. God is wind, sun, fire, ocean tides, hurricanes, snow, eclipses, handshakes, kisses, smiles, etc. God works thur all forms nature to provide an outcome. Do you really think in the days of moses, manna and quail really fell from heaven to feed the Isralites on their 40 years in the desert. No, manna plants and quail are still there in the same land today. God provided thur nature. Or did he really part the Red Sea in the Isralites escape from the Egypitans or was it due to the tide. I think if we could view God in all the earth instead of outside it all, it would be easier to believe in God.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-04-2003).]

That brings up my next point, Jade. If everything and everyone is of God/Nature and we're all free to find our own ways to him, Why do christians find it so damned important to stuff one kind of rhetoric in another faiths direction? If it really is as you say, that god has many faces and we are all doing the same thing in different ways/words (which I believe whole-heartedly), why does it become so important to have only one set of words and way of doing things? Why do christians tell me I'm going to hell for my beliefs and yet agree that my vision of what "god" is and what their vision of what "god" is are the same energy with a different face (or faces in my case)? Is it so hard to think that maybe, justperhaps, there is a scientific explanation for God? Couldn't all of these scientists be searching in their own way for the same answers? Or, if you'd rather, could their belief and method of searching help others in their own search for God? In either of those cases, you are chastising, near on saying, insulting people who work and believe differently than you. If nothing else, you're being impolite. You also continue to dodge certain questions about certain assumptions that you are making of Atheists. You assume that becauseatheists can't see god, they can't see the true beauty of the world.

So I ask again: Why Not? What difference does it make what shape their search takes. What difference does it make in the actual interpretation of what the world is.

I find it easy to see this wonderful world that we live in. I can feel it coursing through my veins. I can tell people how wonderful it is to be alive because of the wonderful experiences waiting for me out there. Of my christian friends out there... it is hard to find one who doesn't focus on the shitty side of life. They all seem to think that the world is a place that needs to be fixed. I don't think it does. Just let it be.

Ok...so let me see if I got this right -

If an atheist sees beauty in the world, and sees how much more significant than himself the power of nature is, and sees how much more vast and long lasting the universe is, and is humble in the face of this beauty, he is arrogant for saying that it has nothing to do with a "god".

But, if a christian sees this beauty, and spits out the proper regurgitate form of christian dogma to explain how god did this, and says that they *know* that this is the only truth, that there is no other way to think, that there is no other possibility, that christian is not in fact arrogant, as it may seem to us "outsiders", but is in fact humble and good for letting the atheist know that they know the one true way to believe?

Do you see no hypocrisy in this?

Do you see no discrepancy of logic here?



Let me repeat -

The atheist is arrogant for saying that he is insignificant in the universe, and that there is no god that made us for a special purpose?

And the christian is humble for saying that we are the most important species on the planet, and that god sits watching and judging our every move and will reward us for eternity at the end of it all?

Is this reverse psychology?


{{edit -

Oh, and -

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You trust in your lawmakers to pass the right laws for the good of all people

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Surely you jest......

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If you do believe in it, you know it s best form of government for the people to grow, live, prosper and be happy in

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I agree that it's better than most of the available options. It is most certainly not *the* one way to live, and it can most certainly be improved upon.
It also happens to be very open to infestations of corrupt bigots, administrative whores, and corporate thugs. Not to mention murderers, thieves, child molestors, drug lords, etc etc etc.

quote:

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So in the spiritual, the Catholic church operates...in same way

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That I'll agree with



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-05-2003).]

GD,

As a Christian, I would never presume to judge anyone in saying your going to hell for not being a Christian. There could possibly be a lot of so called Christians that could be burning in hell as we post. No one on this planet knows for sure where they are headed in the afterlife. For a christian to judge you like this means they ares not acting christ-like. But to put a limit on God and say he only exist in certian faiths is wrong. I would say that all religions are extensions of God. It like God is a body. All parts of the body are essential for life. If one part of the body isn't working, the body is not in perfect health. So all faiths are welcomed by God, but faith needs an authority. Isn't there a head of your religion acting on behalf of all. Isn't there someone in charge? Do you follow him or her?

Everyone is on a spiritual journey, even scientist when they are looking to have questions answered. For them to say there is no God and try to prove it thur science is so wrong, because God is science and more. To study the cause and effects or the nature of all things could only lead them to one conclusion. A higher intelligence.

Sorry if you think I am not being polite. I don't mean to offend anyone, and I speak not to alientate but to stand up for what I believe truth to be, even if it means to stand alone. I wouldn't want to walk ahead of you, but beside you, even if our beliefs differ, because in the end what really matters is how I related and treated you. I think people matter more than anything in this world. And I do think the world has a better potential to be a wonderful place of peace, if peoples hearts would change.

DL
I don't see the God you describe as sitting there waiting for us to wrong and judge us. I think your getting the wrong idea of God. God only wants love. How can love want you to turn away from it. It doesn't. Love would do anything in its power to make you turn to it.
I may never change your mind in the way you percieve the Catholic church to be, but remember it belongs to the people and it is the people you have a low opinion of too. I don't think to be prejudice against them is good. I am not prejudice against athiest. I respect them as persons. I wouldn't use the word arrogance to describe them. I believe when more people believe in a God or Jesus and follow the high road, the world will be a better place for all of us, because what goes up will come down back to us double in blessings.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-05-2003).]

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If you look at the God of the Jews who "IS". He is also the God of the Christians in that God the father, is also the son. The jews woriship their God who is Jesus also.

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Jews, if I'm not mistaken, do not beleive you need an intermediary (jesus) to talk to god.
Christians, if I'm not mistaken, are firm that; to enter gods kingdom you must accept jesus as your saviour.

Well somebody's heaven is going to be a relatively empty place when you consider that there are more religions and followers who do not believe that christ is the way in.

Put another way. Hitler just before death accepts jesus and goes to heaven. All the jews who died in the death camps did not.

xians use the term god & jesus not just interchangeably...but believe they are one and the same. Other religions do not.

If jesus was the 'son' of god he infact is not god therefore praying to jesus presents xians with the dilema of praying to a false god. xians manouvered around that with the introduction of what is now referred to as the 'holy trinity'.... other religions did not, have not and, will not.

Do I see the wonder and beauty of the world around me? Well Of course I do. I do not however find the need to attribute this wonderment to anything more than a wonderful bowl of very tasty comsic soup. =)

Jade....I do not understand where this "beauty" and "harmony" are supposed to be found. Throughout the animal kingdom, animals ruthlessly prey upon each other. Most of them are either cruelly killed by other animals or slowly die of hunger. For my part, I am unable to see any great beauty or harmony in the tapeworm. Let it not be said that this creature is sent as a punishment for our sins, for it is more prevalent among animals than among humans. I suppose the questioner is thinking of such things as the beauty of the starry heavens. But one should remember that stars every now and again explode and reduce everything in their neighborhood to a vague mist. Beauty, in any case, is subjective and exists only in the eye of the beholder.


another thing...God...what is it? some people say its supreme creator, others say he is ghostly holy spirit, others say its just an energy, anyone could call it whatever he thinks it is...so basicaly there is NO CORRECT ANSWEAR TO ANYTHING!

Old testament is just a Jewish mythological history, New testament has a lot of more value and meaning behind it .....but doest it means it should be fallowed as a manual?, Does it means you should do what it says literally? NO! DUMBASS!

If bible was written so long ago its so clear that people simple had no way in describing things as they can nowdays.....By going to hell they could simply mean you will have a harsh and difficult life, if you steal, killl, envy and so on....

another thing about Love...Jade all living spieces make love and love their spieces individually...they have feelings for they offsprings just as humans...we humans are no different....in My oppinion Jesus Christ simply became HUMAN...a real human we should always be..........

all animals love, revenge, envy, figh, kill to survive.........I absolutly see no sin in it.....its part of our cycle Jade...


as for why people change beliefes its that simple, they fear death, they fear unknown!

About God you yourself have no idea what it is, where it is, or even if it is!

Your oppinion, doesnt mean my oppiniont on what it could be....and Yes I see catholics quite the same as DL described.

Ruski.

Fear of the unknown after death for athiest?
Don't they believe they are going nowhere? Why should they fear dying?

Why should an atheist fear dying?
Because life is the single most precious thing.

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I am not prejudice against athiest. I respect them as persons. I wouldn't use the word arrogance to describe them.

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Uh...I beleive you already did a few posts up....

As for your not being prejduice - you have proven that statement incorrect several times in this thread. Your misinformed assumptions and your sweeping generalizations about atheists have been very apparant. I am not saying that you are wrong for doing so, or that I am in any way offended. I just want you to be a little more honest with yourself here.

*That* is the biggest problem I have with religion in general. It seems to make people so readily ignore the things in their own actions which are the very things they speak out against.

WJ slipped that in whiel I was typing. I also meant to adress that point -
Why does the lack of beleif in god preclude a fear of death?
Every species of plant and animal is instilled with an instinctive will to live and prosper, to fear or fight against death.

We are no different.

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But to put a limit on God and say he only exist in certian faiths is wrong. I would say that all religions are extensions of God.

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Except I don?t and I agree with you on this point.

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So all faiths are welcomed by God, but faith needs an authority. Isn't there a head of your religion acting on behalf of all. Isn't there someone in charge? Do you follow him or her?

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All faiths are NOT welcomed by God. If they were, he wouldn?t care who worshiped which God(s). Faith does NOT need an authority and no, there isn?t anyone at the head of my religion. I am the head of my belief as it relates to myself. There is a founder of the basic tenets of my belief, Gerald Gardner (for those who wish to believe he made it himself). I don?t follow him. He had a good idea, he laid it out for people to see and it caught on. My religion was created by a person, just like all religions. The only difference is that I understand that my religion was created by someone fallible. It grows and changes according to the needs of its followers, shapes itself to the ties and continues to enrich the lives of those that follow it in today?s society instead of making it harder for it?s followers to get along. So long as I follow the major ?rules? of the religion I am free to do as I see fit.

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Everyone is on a spiritual journey, even scientist when they are looking to have questions answered. <snippet> study the cause and effects or the nature of all things could only lead them to one conclusion. A higher intelligence.

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Actually, the only conclusion they can find from that is, they don?t know enough yet. Part of understanding that lack of knowledge is that a higher intelligence is a possible answer, whether they find it probable, logical, or neither. I don?t think you understand the scientific process, until all other options are eliminated it is foolish to believe in one to the exclusion of the others. Don?t take lack of exclusive belief to mean denial of existence. It is equally inaccurate to say that God doesn?t exist, from a scientific view anyway.


Sorry about your toes, DL? I couldn?t resist this:

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I wouldn't want to walk ahead of you?

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and

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I believe when more people believe in a God or Jesus and follow the high road

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Above, in front of? is it any different? This is a prime example of the inherent arrogance within religions that think they alone, are correct in their belief or that they are the better road (the high road) to follow. They claim to be tolerant and then try and convert you. If they are tolerant and it doesn?t matter the path you follow (because all roads lead to God)? why convert people?

quote:

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I may never change your mind in the way you perceive the Catholic church to be?

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Looks Up thread, Looks Down thread. When did we start talking about Catholics? Specifically I mean? It seems to me that DL, though he agreed with a sentiment about Catholics (sort of) , didn?t bring them up.

[EDIT]Clarification and Okay, Okay... As far downthread as one can Whilst at the bottom [EDIT]


[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-05-2003).]

I meant high road as looking up to the higher planes to spiritually lift oneself off the ground to feel like a euphoria, natural high, cloud nine without the drugs.

Hmm...Maybe an initial euphoria/high, but definataly not a lasting euphoria/high.

I'm coming into this a bit late but after some intense thought and careful consideration of all of the points and counter points regarding one of the original questions... I would have to say that, in conclusion, and not to put to fine a point on it... we christians are not able to think for ourselves... alas

. . : slicePuzzle

Belief is society's crutch.

I also stopped trying to answer questions that are impossible to answer. Remember anything that can be proven can also be unproven. Why can't we just accept what we already have? We know we have life on Earth, so stop squandering over the possibility of a creator and life after death. It's pointless, and impossible to find a right answer. Because there is no right answer, or rather universal right answer. There might be a right answer for oneself, but that doesn't mean it's the right answer for the rest of humanity. Let people come into themselves, and find their own ideas. And have lots of sex. Thanks, and let today be a prosperous one.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Belief does not have to be a crutch at all. For someone who has come to a particular belief because they have been convinced by enough (relative term I know) evidence for that belief, I don't think it is fair to call that a crutch.

I believe we should allow everyone to come to their own conclusions and that is exactly the way we operate in this place. But avoiding issues that so many of us want to know more about doesn't help anything. You acknowledge that individuals may be able to find answers to these questions but you shouldn't be ruling out the possiblity that those answers can be valid for others and even possibly for everyone. So share the findings and let's each decide with more data not less.

. . : slicePuzzle

I can't say it any better:
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate." -Dogma (the movie).

Humans have been asking the question, 'where do we come from' since we could first pick our noses. I mean it can be a fun question to tackle, but it's also pointless at the same time.

We can help each other out in finding an answer that suites our own needs, but arguing over whether or not there is a god(s) is tiresome. Nobody here is going to unearth some mindshattering evidence that undeniably proves the existence or absence of a god(s). And if we ever think we know the answer try not to believe in it too much, because chances are in a few years you will feel differently about the subject.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Before I get flamed, I want to stress that my intentions are not to thwart people from talking about religion (key word talking), but to keep the arguing and bantering to a minimum, if not an end.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

I don't consider posting thoughts, ideas, views here as arguing. I have learned much about different people here and take some of them with me when I go out in the world here. Even though I am a person of faith, I am challenged all the time. To be faithful doesn't limit the mind to experiences, new thoughts and ideas. Jesus followers don't live in a bubble. We stumble, we fall and get up again. Jesus journey to Calvery shows us we will stumble, fall and get up again to carry our crosses in life till the end of our time. This is why we try to imitate Jesus. So no, doing Jesus is not a crutch in life. Doing Jesus is a great challenge for us.

Life is a great challenge.

For everybody. Many people choose the easy ways on eveything to avoid as much of that chellenge as possible.

Facing the issues in your life, and choosing to live as a good person in the face of adversity and complication is a very challenging thing. Whether or not you have any religious feelings in regard to Jesus.

On the other hand, getting back to the earlier point of this thread, which adresses the fact that the initial post was aimed at the undeniable hoard of so-called christians who are there in lipservice at best, relying on the predetermined beliefs of the church and never exploring further, never wondering or caring about hypocrasy or the discrepancy between what they preach and how they act - for them, it is nothing but a crutch. An "out".

why atheist is afraid of death?
well its freaking that simple, he is human just like you, ok?
he might have kids...so if he is dying ...err... I think its pretty logical to fear death and unknown...if you still dont understand me then.....

quote:

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We can help each other out in finding an answer that suites our own needs, but arguing over whether or not there is a god(s) is tiresome. Nobody here is going to unearth some mindshattering evidence that undeniably proves the existence or absence of a god(s). And if we ever think we know the answer try not to believe in it too much, because chances are in a few years you will feel differently about the subject.

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actually, if your intention is just to keep arguing/bickering to a minimum you're in pretty good shape and have little to worry about, despite our differences in here we're a pretty respectful group and tend to see value in other's opinions even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

as far as believing or not believing, i don't see much point to a life without belief. it may be in God, a cause, or something else, but a passion and belief in something is what drives us. you will (and should) feel different about the subject at some point, we're all human and that's how we work, testing and exploring our ideas. that doesn't mean its wrong to try tho.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

quote:

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On the other hand, getting back to the earlier point of this thread, which adresses the fact that the initial post was aimed at the undeniable hoard of so-called christians who are there in lipservice at best, relying on the predetermined beliefs of the church and never exploring further, never wondering or caring about hypocrasy or the discrepancy between what they preach and how they act - for them, it is nothing but a crutch.

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DL
I wonder why it should bother you how some so-called christians act. How could you possibly know the heart of a christian?

Growinp up, were you a rebellious teen? Did you have a good relationhip with your father growing up? Where you always respectful and honored his household? Did you do some things that he would of disapproved of that maybe he never found out about? Maybe no matter what you did wrong, you were punished, but he was always there for you. Today, do you care what thinks about you. This is how christians see the father figure of Jesus. Christians are not perfect and I admit some are condesending and not acting like faithful believers, but at least they are trying.

What makes you think Christians are not exploring and searching their faith even today. On what basis do you make this assumption? Or are you just positng different views that are not your own so you get get a rise out of posters here?

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hoard of so-called christians who are there in lipservice at best

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now, as you should be able to see, I very deliberately pointed that statement at a group of people who I thought we were all in agreement existed - those that claim to be something but are not...those who claim to believe something simply because they feel they should 'pick a side' so to speak.

Are you actually trying to say that people like that don't exist? Or just that they don't exist on the 'christian' side of things?

I really have a hard time understanding sometimes if you are in fact part of the same conversation as the rest of us are.

I am not saying that in spite or rudeness....I am truly at a loss....

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Christians are not perfect and I admit some are condesending and not acting like faithful believers, but at least they are trying.

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Jade... it's this bit; '...at least they're trying.' I have difficulty understanding.

It's the same as saying ".. they meant well." That thinking far too easily dismisses, and makes acceptable, behavior or acts that would otherwise not be tolerated...at least by most people.
But because they are/were trying or meant well, in the name of their religion, you not only absolve that individual of any responsibility for their actions you at the same time condone that behaviour when you say..."at least they are trying."

the path to hell is paved with good intentions...

Here, Here nojive. Not only that but, in a broader sense, that statement implies that the rest of us (non-christians) aren't trying at all. That is where the inherent conceit and condescention comes from. The religion is geared towards it.

Whether you try and convert me or chastise me for my beliefs or not, christians are taught to believe that they are going the "right" way and non-christians are not. Tolerance is not acceptence. Tolerance is a stalling action until things start going the "right" way. it's the same as saying, "They'll come around... eventually. Even if I have to help".



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-08-2003).]

quote:

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But because they are/were trying or meant well, in the name of their religion, you not only absolve that individual of any responsibility for their actions you at the same time condone that behaviour when you say..."at least they are trying."

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negative. people are absolutely responsible for their actions no matter what their faith, anyone trying to tell you differently is reading a different bible or selling you something. being responsible and being forgiven are two totally different things.

its hard for me to get into debate on things like this because i totally know where you guys are coming from, i know the exact type of person you're talking about because i've often encountered them myself both as a christian and before i was. i can't stand them either, largely because they reflect negatively on me and create preconceptions that i've got to fight. the thing is that there's a very real power in God for those that truly follow Him that i just can't convey in text. i was at camp with our youth ministry a few weeks ago, and i saw an absolute punk kid, who at age 14 has a probation officer and was looking at going to boot camp rather than his freshman year of high school, literally transformed. he IS a different person now, in attitude and action, and i can't attribute that to anything i can rationalize as a logically thinking person. that's all God.

each person's decision here is their own and neither bugs nor i nor anyone else here would want to force you into thinking or believing anything. we just want to share something we've found that we think is so awesome its worth sharing. like vanilla coke, but better

chris (waiting for the 'but i don't like vanilla coke' comments )


KAIROSinteractive

Fig - I understand that *you* feel that way about responsibility for your actions, and about your beliefs, but it certainly seems that Jade is of a different opinion.

Of course Jade is also very fond of *saying* that she feels one way about something (because that's the "right" way to feel about it) and then by here own words proving otherwise later on or prior to the statement.

Jade's statement, as nojive and GD have mentioned, implies that simply by being a christian a person is doing a good thing and is "trying" and is excused for poor behaviour, and that someone who is not christian is not.

Which is pure fantasy.

{edit - oh, and I have to say, honestly, that vanilla coke sucks! }




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-08-2003).]

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being responsible and being forgiven are two totally different things.

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Taking it from there.

A person is convicted and sentenced to death for murdering a pedophile. Both are Xian's.

jesus died for your sins. correct? jesus forgives all xian sinners correct?

So what we have here is personal responsibility out the window. No matter how abhorent you find the crime and the criminal to be, all that matters to a xian is getting into the 'kingdom.'Correct?
The way to achieve this is ask forgiveness.

"Lord" sez the pedophile "please forgive me for what I have done.
"Lord" sez his convicted soon-to-be dead himself, murderer.." Please forgive me for what I have done.
The lord jesus pronounces "Forgiven."

And so what you have now is these two guys up there in gods house with everything hunky-dorey because they asked and were granted foregiveness. There's no responsibility what-so-ever.

Now you as an individual, as DL intimated, Bugs and many others I'm sure may accept personal responsibility for your actions but the bottom line is... you really don't have to because when you ask... you will be forgiven for everything and anything you've ever done.

If you do not believe the above senario you are not a xian. I don't know what you are but if that's not your basic belief you are not a xian. Jesus forgives all. Just waaaaay to convenient.

Haven't tried the vanilla coke yet but I think I would much prefer the original paint and bug remover. =) I quite like the way the initial blast takes off the top of your head and makes your eyes water. *o*

Actually, you have it all wrong. You've pretty much described your average catholic (from knowing Catholics) (nothing against Catholics though, but that seems to be their attitude). Maybe your below-average Christian also, but in general, a Christian would be truly "right" with God if they really wanted to improve. If they had no intention to stop, then, well, I'm not too sure, but if they really felt bad about what they did (like a Pedophile) and wanted to change their life around, then I think that they would be truly forgiven.

You couldn't go on a murderous rampage and half-assedly say: "Dear God, please forgive me, Thanks" and seriously mean it. Forgivness requires two people, in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 08-09-2003).]

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Forgivness requires two people, in my opinion.

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Yes well that's the rub isn't cfb. We're not talking about two people we're talking about ONE person and their one god. An all forgiving god. And this 'all forgiving god' is for 'all' flavors of xianity not just catholics. You cannot disagree because there is no more basic tenant of xianity. Well yes you can of course disagree but like I said that's something other than xianity. Forgiveness is for the lord alone.

While responsibility may be taught in the bible, you may in fact assume that responsibility but responsiibility is not a requirement whereas 'asking forgiveness is' ... and as a xian you are firm and unwavering in your belief that jesus will forgive you even if right now you beleive that in your opinion 'forgiveness requires two people.'

=)


Almost forgot.

quote:

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You couldn't go on a murderous rampage and half-assedly say: "Dear God, please forgive me, Thanks" and seriously mean it.

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To you it may be half-assed but all god hears is 'please forgive me' ..at least I haven't yet met a xian who's told me he knows of a case where jesus said...' naaa sorry buddy that was too much even for me.'

Jailhouse conversions also come to mind. =)


[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

I meant two people, like, you and God.

If your not truly sorry, I really don't beleive that you're truly forgiven. God is always going to forgive you, if your willing to change, or at least want to change. But, not if you are using "forgivness" as a cheap way into Heaven.

<bg> I'm typin' you're postin'

quote:

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God is always going to forgive you, if your willing to change, or at least want to change.

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I think you just made my point...or did I miss something?? =)

I don't think I've got this wrong but gods forgiveness is not limited to a willingness to change. gods forgiveness when requested covers everything from murder to debauchery...or having fantasies about your neighbours good looking wife...or husband. <lol>
Prior 'acts' of whatever if you will.


[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

Thats pretty much true about being sorry and forgiven. If I recall it right the christian bible says we will be forgiven 7x77. But the sevens represent fullness. After cleansing, we are in a state of grace if we are truly sorry for our wrongdoings. Its like our souls are in their infancy clean and pure. When your body is really filthy dirty because you haven't bathed in a year, you would pretty much stink. You neglect the cleansing of your body and who would want to be around you. You bathe daily and keep youself smelling clean with soap and deodorant. We also think of the souls of ourselves that lives forever, whereas the body turns to dust. Its like the soul gets filthy dirty full of the rot of sin and it piles up and gets overloaded so we cleanse it out and become clean with God. We don't want to die in this state of impurity. To me thats the beauty of christianity, you can become born again over and over and have so many chances to become right with God. The mercy due to the love of a God for his familty is boundless.

To me that's the reason that christianity is pointless. And in particular Catholicism, as the catholics seem to absue this notion more than most....

Doing wrong, and being forgiven is one thing. Making gross abuses again and again and being able to simply "wash it away" is nothing a built in 'out'.

You've killed, you've negelected, you've abused, molested, but at the last minute you say "gee, that was wrong, I'm sorry....."

Too bad. Burn.

Being sorry is not enough to make up for the horror that you cause others.

And to feel that you have the power to say that 'god' forgives and so everything is ok is the absolute pinnacle of arrogance, lack of personal responsibility, and outright evil if you ask me.


{{edit

quote:

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Jailhouse conversions also come to mind. =)

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Yup.

How many people ahve you seen who once on death row all of a sudden miraculously 'find god'?

And then think they no longer deserve to be put to death because of it?

They way I see it - great, you;ve found god and he forgives you? Then why are you so scared to go and meet him? =)

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-09-2003).]

quote:

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To me thats the beauty of christianity, you can become born again over and over and have so many chances to become right with God.

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Jade: That's quite an astonishing statement. I'm still trying to gather myself here.

substitute 'born again' with ANYof the sins from covet to murder. You're saying as long as I keep trying to 'become right with God.' I can keep right on a sin'in. That's something alright but I'm not so sure I'd be callin' it 'beauty.'

Well, thats a grey area isn't it. In general, the Christians that I see really don't do that. The Bible (I hate saying that: "The Bible says...") says that you should strive to be like God. Striving to be like God would mean that, although your going to mess up, your objective is to try and adhere to a righteous life. But, since your going to mess up, at least you can be forgiven.

Think about it this way: If you ask someone for forgivness, and you said it cynically/with an edge, would they really beleive you? No. Same with God. The "beauty" of it, as you put it, is that if you are truly sorry and willing to change, then you'll be forgiven.

Grey area? No.

The problem here, is a very basic one -

theory vs. application

You can talk all you want about what the bible says, about how it should be interpreted, about how christians "should" act.

But if that't not the way it works in practice, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

=)

There cannot be a grey area here CFB. You insist on attaching the qualifier,willing to change. Where is it written that god's forgiveness is conditional.

quote:

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Well, thats a grey area isn't it. In general, the Christians that I see really don't do that. The Bible (I hate saying that: "The Bible says...")

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I say again: If you do not beleive without question that jesus grants absolute and unconditional foregiveness regardless of the sin...or sinner... you must rethink your position as a xian. This is the Faithpart of reliqion. And I'm not even getting into the 'fundamentalist' side of xianity...we're talking the VERY basics here.

You can however at any time.. or as Jade says 'over and over again' or upon your death bed ask forgiveness: '...jesus please forgive me for that time in my life where I beleived your forgiveness was conditional. I realize now that I was wrong and that it is you alone who can grant forgiveness.'

Pooof! You're in... havin' a nosh with that pervert and his killer.




[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

Sorry to interrupt a fine discussion, but in relation to the "Jailhouse Conversions" aforementioned, I thought y'all might find this interesting...

InnerChange Freedom Initiative

^Interesting read.

quote:

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Probably no one was actually lying; they were just believing, and repeating as fact, what they wanted to believe.

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There's that damn word again '....wanted.'


=)

I really hate to agree with the christians here, but I do. I don't see a flaw in asking for redemption.

Asking forgiveness from God is a momentary thing. For instance, if I commit a crime, like murder, and I am truely sorry for my sin, then I repent and I am forgiven. Now, wether I commit another crime is out of the control of God. So say I kill once again and feel truely sorry, I can repent and be forgiven. God's decision to forgive does not lie with what he/she feels you might do in the future, but how you feel and act in the moment. God can't see into the future, or else the road to redemption would be pointless, and our path to heaven or hell would be already paved, and without an exit. So it is safe to assume that everytime we ask for forgiveness, God gives us the benefit of the doubt that this is the last of our sinning. And if we ask for forgiveness with the intention to continue our wrongdoing, then we are not forgiven on the basis that we weren't sincere.

ahh crap, Im starting to sound all jesus loving. kill me...

PS From experience, it is very difficult to argue against religion, because their boundaries are infinantly adjustable. It's like playing poker against a table full of conartists. While you are playing with the rules, they have the ability to defy reality with the help of a little something called cheating. God cheats reality and logic, so as long as we use logic to disarm him we will fail. So thus there is no way to win.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Mr.Pansy... Peter if I may. =) (quick... someone slap me with a cold fish}

quote:

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I really hate to agree with the christians here, but I do. I don't see a flaw in asking for redemption.

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ok... I'm a little confused here. Help me out a bit.

you don't see a flaw in asking for redemption and you hate to agree with the xian's here. As opposed to what...xian's elsewhere???... or are you not a xian. Redemption is reserved for xians and if you are xian what's to hate?

I'm not sure I'm actually trying to win anything or anyone over, that in itself would be preaching. =)

[This message has been edited * edited & edited and re-thought so many times by NoJive that he just may go to bed now. (edited 08-09-2003).]

[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

quote-To you it may be half-assed but all god hears is 'please forgive me' ..at least I haven't yet met a xian who's told me he knows of a case where jesus said...' naaa sorry buddy that was too much even for me.'

i guess you never met a "real" christian

come on you guys - you all talk about God like he was some gullible hall monitor at school




[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 08-09-2003).]

peterpansy:

quote:

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wether I commit another crime is out of the control of God

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...thats not much of a god you have...

quote:

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i guess you never met a "real" christian

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You missed something here Outcyder because what you are saying is that you do in fact know a 'real'xian who do indeed knows of a case or cases where jesus refused to grant forgiveness...or had conditions attached to that forgiveness. And you didn't mean to say that at all ... did you. =)


As for talking about god like he was some gullible hall monitor...well none of the xians posting are saying that. And for those of us who have no faith well we kinda figure god and
that hall monitor are on equal footing.Maybe one even moonlights as the other... who knows. That's very upsetting for 'some' xians'... not so much for others and with the exception of the initial joke posted by Insider that's what this thread is all about. Believers and not. You are I'm not.

And so just what was it that you 'meant' to say? =)

ahh forgiveness.. as a friend of mine once pointed out, just because god has the ability/option to forgive doesn't mean he *has* to exercise that option.

if he(god) didn't have that option, what good would it do for ministers/priests to frighten their sheep into doing what (in their view) is right?

[edit - rephrase]

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 08-09-2003).]

Come on you guys. Have you ever truly forgiven a wrong someone has commited against you. You are upset and thought your friend betrayed you and he or she comes to you to ask forgiveness. Are you going to deny them if they are on their hands and knees with tears of sorrow begging you for forgiveness? Haven't you ever felt your heart melt with compassion and you forget the wrongdoing and start over as friends again. Same concept with Jesus who is a friend/mother/father/sister/brother, etc. It feels good to forgive and be forgiven. Forgiveness happens to all everyday thousands of times as the world turns. Compassion is such a heartfelt emotion. To Christians, thats Jesus loving thur mankind.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-09-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-09-2003).]

Ok, a whole bunch of you seem to be missing a major point here, repeatedly.

There is a difference betweeen doing wrong, and then being forgiven, and constantly doing wrong because you rely on the fact that at any point you can drop into confession, be "sorry" and and be forgiven.

*That* is the problem that is so prevelent and that undermines the legitimate purpose and action of 'forgiveness'.

And it's not a question of whether god actually forgives these people or not - it's not about god, it's about people having the audacity to say that it doesn't matter what they've done, becuase they "know" that god has forgiven them. It's about people creating an easy way to escape their wrongdoings.

Why is eveyone so concerned about getting their forgiveness from god here on earth? If forgiveness is for god, then great. When you get to heaven he can forgive you. While you're here on earth, you can deal with the consequences of your actions.

And yes Jade, I have forgiven people, and my actions have been forgiven - by the people who those actions effected. Not from some imaginary 3rd party....

Ok DL

I did want to point out because I did forget to mention and I think other Christians hopefully agree with me that there is a great sin called the "Sin of Presumption" This means you do a wrong act knowing God is going to forgive you. You take advantage of the mercy of God. For example, if a person decides to commit adultery tommorow, and afterwards will ask God to forgive him and feels assured a heavenly place in God's kindgom. We presume on Gods forgiveness instead of asking & hoping for it. This is different from persons that fall into a sinful life and repeatedly do it over and over again and then feels distance from God because they feel so unworthy that they cannot come back to God. These are two different intents in the minds of the sinners. God is forgiving, but we don't want to take advantage of his love for us. The only sin you cannot be forgiven for is denial of the Holy Spirit. This is unpardonable per scripture.

Ok, and, once again - I know this.

But we are talking, again, about the difference between theory and application.

That might be the way scripture says it works, but vast hordes of christians do not act in that way.

Yes. Your right. We can agree that lots of Christians don't act the way they should if they profess to be followers of Jesus. But I wonder if you have ever met one who did.

nope I never did......just a bunch of fanatics, thats about it.

quote:

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Galatians Chp. 6, V. 7

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

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I think that this says what I've been trying to say: God knows when your sincere, and when your not. If your not sincere about your wanting forgivness, then god knows it, and why should he be sincere about forgiving you?

Yes, I have.


On a more relevant note -

~turns to brick wall - 'hi, how are ya?'~



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-10-2003).]

Brick wall says, "Hi DL! I'm peachy... how are you?"

my cable connection is down and time warner has shown absolutely amazing incompetence, i apologize for the late response first off, jdauie, i think that comment was based on the idea of us having free will, not God's inability to do something.

quote:

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How many people ahve you seen who once on death row all of a sudden miraculously 'find god'?

And then think they no longer deserve to be put to death because of it?

---

this actually illustrates the exact opposite of what i'm talking about. several years ago there was a woman in texas who became a christian while on death row, she had murdered someone (don't remember the specifics). in an interview she mentioned that altho she was sorry for what she had done and believed she had been forgiven, she realized that there were consequences to her actions that she had to face. that's a person who understood the foundation of christianity that we seem to be missing here.

what i'm hearing is that people have a problem with someone guilty of a heinous crime suddenly saying "i'm sorry God, i believe in jesus, please forgive me" and everything being ok, then a similar crime is repeated and forgiveness is repeated (or a person confesses faith in christ then proceeds to commit said heinous act then ask forgiveness). what's being missed is that true faith in christ is a transforming process, if you've actually become a christian your heart and mind are changed (like my example of the teen mentioned above). simply repeating a prayer with no heart behind it means nothing, it becomes just words. if a person supposedly becomes a christian then continues on in a lifestyle or committing acts totally contrary to christianity i'd question whether they were truly saved or simply trying to cover their a$$.

one of the big problems i see with the western church is the frequency with which the term "christian" is bantered about. people who attend church occasionally, grew up going on sundays, or sort've believe in God consider themselves christian, and imo that couldn't be farther from the truth. in acts we read the term "the Way" applied to those making up the early church, literally the same term christ applied to himself, the path to heaven. "believers" is also used a number of times in acts, those that believed in christ's resurrection and accepted him as their savior and the son of God. both these terms imply action, an active state of believing or doing, a "way" or method of achieving something. christianity isn't passive, its an active faith, something that many with the 2-car garage and 2.5 kids seem to have missed.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Fig

I agree with your post.

I wonder if your speaking of Carla Fay Tucker that got lethal injection for the pic axe murder. I, myself feel strongly against capital punishment. A society, to me that believes in killing for killing like a revenge is not the answer. It says, "Yeah, we will kill you if you kill". Its just telling society killing is OK because the state believes in it. And also I disagree with having the families watch the person die, like to get some satisfaction as a death for a death, you deserve to die. The families themselves want revenge, which is so wrong. I don't understand the peace and closure they get when the murderer is dead too. Like now my life can go on now that my son's murderer is dead too. I don't think Christ would want us to have this revenge in our hearts.

I figure living Carla could of worked out her salvation, but it was cut short. Just knowing she commited a crime so horrible under the influence of drugs and living with it was suffering enough. If she was truly sorry for what she did, I think God would not abandon her. Only God knows what was in her heart and if she had true contrition for her action, why couldn't she attain a paradise, like someone who never commited a crime. I know she should be judged for punishment for the crime and go to prision, but in the state killing her, their purpose was to send a message out as a deterrant. Like, see what happens to you when you kill. It never has worked.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-10-2003).]

And with the advent of the 100th post for this topic...I'm closing it to start a new one...and here it is:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000976.html