Topic awaiting preservation: Doing Jesus II (Page 1 of 3)

Continued from here: http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000963.html

I just want to reiterate one small point (I guess because I enjoy exercises in futility.....) -

All along, myself and others have very definitely stated that most of what we are talking about is the hordes of so-called christians who abuse the tenents of the "faith".

It is clear that there is a difference between those people and a "true" christian.

It is also very true that you can come to grips with your self and with any wrongs that you have committed *without* resorting to "christ" and "god", just as truly if not moreso.

^ Slide over a bit there will ya DL... I need that wall for a minute. =)

Replace 'practical politics' with religion and that pretty much sums up my view on religion of any stripe.

quote:

---

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

---

By the age of 10 I was already thinking along those lines, by age 12 I was convinced. But it wasn't until my late teens & early 20's when I was introduced to the writings of Mencken and a few others that I realized there were others with similar thoughts. And they could say it a whole lot better.



[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-10-2003).]

Hmm. Thats interesting, and true about that subject, and true about some Christians, but...

...It seems that the church (I attend a Four-Square church) has really swayed away from the fire and brimstone sermons ever since we got a new pastor five years ago, because he didn't agree with that kind of thinking (the thinking being motivation=not going to hell). In general, what I hear from church is more or less application of the bible to everyday life: trying to improve your everyday life, and help solve your everyday problems. In fact, mein church has had more people accept Christ since the new pastor took over. Some churches may use the "scare people (with hobgoblins, as you put it) approach," but, aside from turning people away from Christianity, most Christians that I know don't think that way.

Of course, they have a healthy fear of Hell. In fact, people of an atheistic viewpoint are more afraid of hell than the christians that I know are, for some reason (at least they call themselves atheist). But, in fact, lots of Christians are motivated by a reward: Heaven. I myself was raised in a Christian home, but hever really bothered with religion till I was about 13 (I'm 15). I really thought that it was pointless. But, as I became interested in the theology behind religion, I really found it hard to dismiss, and through talking to people, I really came to the conclusion that their had to be some kind of superior being that influences our lives.

I know plenty of intelligent, PhD peoples who came to the same conclusion at some point in their lives. Our pastor the same way: He was doing studies in astrophysics for nearly 10 years and was an adimant beleiver in evolution.

Anyways, he, them, and I, and other Christians are motivated by the simple fact that we beleive that their is a God (that is good) and that the universe, the evolution of the species, our lives and everything has been influenced by him. Through that, well, I'd conclude that if the Bible was written by him (inderectly), that it must be true, not false, and that I should live my life in a way that would coincide with some basic (really not that limiting) guidlines set down by him.

Well, that sounded a little preachy. Damn. I hate it when I do that, but anyways, to sum it up: Lots of Christians don't that way, NoJive. Some do, but...

CB
You seem so wise for a 15yr old. Whereas someone else would take years to come to your conclusions, your unlocking many doors to theology early. Would venture to say that Jesus must be calling you to seek. There is a saying I heard from a religious that is "the more you look for Jesus, the more you find him." And I think this means he becomes more present in your life and you want to share him. I wish my tenth graders had your desire for fullness of truth like you have.

DL

If people feel they can commit crimes and use religion to alleviate responsibility then that's their problem. You can't force people to feel guilt. They have as much a right to hide behind religion, then you have to scrutinize them for their cowardice and abuse of doctrine.

Anyway, I'm not sure I follow your logic. Who cares whether or not they feel vindicated? It doesn't change anything. They are still guilty of a crime, and they will hopefully be punished on earth. If not, then so be it. That's the way things spin. Unfortunately, we don't get much of a say in the matter. No one ever said we had to like it.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Ah, so we should all just be good little drones and do as we're told?

We should always assume that if there is something wrong we can't do anything to fix it, and just proceed mindlessly with our heads down?

No thanks....

I think you've touched on something very important, CB. To me the christian theology (the idea) is completely different than the christian religion (the practice). The idea of christianity is something that I think anyone (for the most part) can agree with and live with. It's the religion that mucks things up. Look at christianity as a whole. Why are there so many paths to the same place? I think it's because religion focuses on the path, not the goal. When someone disagrees with the path they stray even though their goal is the same. Let people live their lives in pursuit of that goal in and of their own right with some guidlines to follow (i.e. ten commandments). Don't give them numbered footsteps to walk in as though they were learning with a 'teach-yourself-to-dance' kit.

So, DL, how do you propose we force people to take responsibility for their actions? Give them a guilt pill? Guilt is something people need to come to terms on their own.

And, how did I ever imply that we should be drones? If anything what you propose is this, by wanting to control people and tell them what is right and wrong. People are entitled to their beliefs and opinions just as much as you are. One thing I've learned, the harder you push people to change, the harder they will push back.

You're too much of an idealist.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

[This message has been edited by peterpansy (edited 08-11-2003).]

You are very confused, and you make very large assumptions.

I have never said anything about forcing people to feel guilt, nor have I said anything about right or wrong.

The conversation has been in regard to things that are agreed upon as being wrong - the debate has been about how religion allows people to gloss over the wrongs they have done.

I am not in any way an idealist, and I have not pushed people to change.
I simply ask for explanations.

gd -

quote:

---

The idea of christianity is something that I think anyone (for the most part) can agree with and live with. It's the religion that mucks things up

---

Exactly.

quote:

---

I am not in any way an idealist, and I have not pushed people to change.
I simply ask for explanations.

---

dare i call you a realist? you have my respect. "real' christianity is not a religion; it is a reality. reality can only be judged on an individual basis. if i judge your reality, it can only be a judgement based on my own reality. this is biblical. "judge not lest ye be judged." and again, "as ye judge, so shall ye be judged." and again "know ye not that we shall judge even the angels?" (angel = messenger)

"according to thy faith, so it shall be done", and in another place "Jesus could do no miracles there because of unbelief". if you will note, he never pushed himself on anyone. if he was rejected, he simply moved on. and he directed his disciples to do the same. then the prime directive -- "feed my sheep". this is the problem everyone here seems to keep reiterating. there are too many shepherds who keep preaching over and over and again and again, even to the "saved", that you must be "born again"; this is not feeding the sheep. evangelizing is good for the "lost". but , in the words of a little old lady of commercial fame: "where's the beef?" (it is out there)

at what point do i come to realize that i have been deceived?


/encryption

DL said:
"And it's not a question of whether god actually forgives these people or not - it's not about god, it's about people having the audacity to say that it doesn't matter what they've done, becuase they "know" that god has forgiven them. It's about people creating an easy way to escape their wrongdoings."

Then I'm not sure how else to take this.


hmm...When you use the word 'they' it's confusing whether or not you are refering to the individual wrong-doer, or christian circles. If anything, that's where I lose you.

I think I see what you mean. I just read it the wrong way.

Might I ask, what kind of explanations are you looking for?

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

[This message has been edited by peterpansy (edited 08-12-2003).]

It's not like I'm on a quest with a list of things I'd like explained...

Topics come up. I ask questions. It seems not enough people do that...people just accept, or say "fuck it, we can't do anything anyway...."

You may have noticed I also share my opinion rather freely.

But hey, no matter how strong I feel about it, it's still just someone's opinion....

You remember the guy with the hair on Monday Night Football? You know the rainbow hair and the sign, John 3-16. He always sat in the endzone. Well I was wondering. Do you think the people behind him ever said "Hey hair freak! Put the sign down I can't see Joe Namath!" And he might turn to them and say "Joe Namath is not your salvation" and the guy punches him in the face. What do you think? I bet he got punched alot. Throwing punches is kinda like throwing stones is it not? So hair freak went to Monday Night Football games and got stoned?

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus

Jesus always weaves his way into the asylum sooner or later because I think he likes to hang out with us.

For Christians to have a friendship in Jesus is to them like having the most deepest friendship in the world. And its because Jesus sees the raw us with all our imperfections and feel Jesus loves us deeply anyway.


I had the opportunity to go on retreat for 4 days just to concentrate on Jesus with a group of 75. I left my worries at home and was looking to tap into a greater spirit in a oneness with the son of God. Halfway thru, I felt I wasn't praying enough, because there was so much joy and peace with so many. I felt, I will just wait and maybe Jesus will come to me. Jesus was there, but was like hiding from me. And then Jesus crept up on me towards the last part of my retreat and how I can best describe it was like a touch of aweness and a wonder. Jesus was showing me a little bit of himself and it was like getting a touch of heaven. You feel so much love, that you feel euphoric and feel like crying with joy. It was really hard to come down from it when I got back to the real world. But I feel I got to know Jesus a little better, so I could share him more. So how could I say Jesus is not real when he touched me so deep.

Not meaning to preach, just to explain why Jesue is so essential in the lives of many.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-12-2003).]

Peter:

quote:

---

DL said:
"And it's not a question of whether god actually forgives these people or not - it's not about god, it's about people having the audacity to say that it doesn't matter what they've done, becuase they "know" that god has forgiven them. It's about people creating an easy way to escape their wrongdoings."

Then I'm not sure how else to take this.


hmm...When you use the word 'they' it's confusing whether or not you are refering to the individual wrong-doer, or christian circles. If anything, that's where I lose you.

---

I think it's quite obvious from that that DL is talking about the individual, nevero nce does he state that he is talking about christianity in general, and Dl is the kinda guy who would say if he was talking in that broad a scope.

Lobotomy: Ummm...WTF does that have to do with this discussion?

quote:

---

I just want to reiterate one small point (I guess because I enjoy exercises in futility.....) -

All along, myself and others have very definitely stated that most of what we are talking about is the hordes of so-called christians who abuse the tenents of the "faith".

---

DL

In your opinion, in what ways do the so-called christians abuse the tenents of faith? Give me some examples, other than when they go against the will God when we sin. How can you yourself distinguish who is good and who isn't?

I myself cannot distinguish who is a good christian and who isn't. I feel I shouldn't judge people. I know we can get an impression of a person by an act or actions and form an opinion of them, but that doesn't mean you should group them to form a opinion of a whole body of christians of being good or bad. Some pillars of the churchs could possibly have a darkside and could seem so rightious in the eyes of other followers.


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-12-2003).]

quote:

---

And it's not a question of whether god actually forgives these people or not - it's not about god, it's about people having the audacity to say that it doesn't matter what they've done, becuase they "know" that god has forgiven them. It's about people creating an easy way to escape their wrongdoings.

---

I would assume that's it in a nutshell. He's been saying that for the last three or four posts.

Judgement is not necessary for recognition that someone is or isn't holding certain values. Examples of "bad" christians...

1. Xians who Kill.
2. Xians who steal.
3. Xians who commit adultery.
4. Xians who dishonor their elders.
5. Xians who don't honor the sabbath.
6. Xians who believe other Gods exist and are equally deserving of praise by others.
7. Xians who yearn for something better.
8. Xians who take gods name in vain.
9. Xians who carve statues of historical (mythical or not) figures.
10. Xians who lie about their peers (for good or ill).

Yes, I based my list on the 10 Commandments (one version anyway). These are the "rules" set forth for Xians. If they break them they are being "bad" Xians, whether they ask for forgiveness or not. Of course they are against the will of God. How can they not be? Anything that makes a Xian a bad Xian is against the will of God. As has been stated before; all religions, generally speaking, do the same thing. They provide a basis for people to gather together and draw strength from each other and help them get along with one another. The fact that there are some "Xians" out there who feel the need to cram their faith into all of my orifices at once shows me that they aren't being a good Xian. They should be happy in their belief and comforted to know that I am happy in mine. If they believe that all paths lead to God then they should also believe that I will meet him and be judged as everyone else is. It IS NOT their place to direct me one way or the other. If they are truly believers in the christian religion, then they should understand and believe that it is God that will make me see. They are interfering with God, not exactly where you want to be as a God fearing, religious Xian.

Obviously, Grythus, any Christian is going to do (at least some) of that stuff on (at least) a daily basis. Most have the honorable intention to wake up in the morning and not sin. Of course, we all will.

A good Christian is someone who (along with having the basic beleif set of Christians) STRIVES to be BETTER. They/We can never be perfect, but at least we can try to be. In fact, it says that somewhere in the Bible. Those ten commandments are what we are to strive to be like.

For example, of your list, I have and probably will again steal, commit adultery (at least, at this point in my life, lust), dishonor my elders, not honor the sabbath, envy (BTW: It's always okay to want something better, it's bad to ENVY), take gods name in vain, carve a statue of mythological figures and lie about my peers.

Does that make me a bad Christian? No. It makes me human.


[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 08-13-2003).]

quote:

---

I feel I shouldn't judge people

---

And yet you do.

The more you say, Jade, the more hypocritical you seem to me.

You make these happy flourishing 'christian' statements. But you don't seem to actually follow them. You say them, and they are gone. At least that's the way it looks from here....

Examples? I've given dozens of examples at least already. I'm not really inclined to continue going in circles...

.

quote:

---

A good Christian is someone who ... STRIVES to be BETTER.

---

That makes a (potentially) good person. My only point is that it doesn't take the religion to do that. =)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-13-2003).]

Isn't that a nice little EXCULSION of a HUGE modifier, DL.

the original quote would be:

quote:

---

A good Christian is someone who (along with having the basic beleif set of Christians) STRIVES to be BETTER.

---

And if you would of quoted it right, then:

quote:

---

That makes a (potentially) good person. My only point is that it doesn't take the religion to do that. =)

---

that quote really wouldn't of made sense. Would it.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 08-13-2003).]

I'm not perfect... I'm only human... I make mistakes. I have made mistakes. I will almost certainly make more mistakes.

ok...that's me, and I suspect most of you wouldn't have any quarell with that as a description of yourself.

So... when a xian dies all those mistakes are forgiven because jesus died for your sins. I'm gonna say it again. You cannot add on your personal 'Well I think it means..bla bla..' You can think and question all manner of things about your religion but if you think something other than the door's open to all sinners and that jesus forgives ALL, then you are not a xian. That is the very foundation of your religion.

It is also a very exclusive club as anyone who does not believe in christ does not get into heaven.

I also wonder why the xians here find it so difficult to say 'ya you're right, you don't get into heaven if you don't beleive in jesus. There's a lot of this touchy feely... 'we're seeking the same thing...just taking different paths. (paraphrase there) Well if you're xian there is no other path is there. It's the 'others' who have got it all wrong. Be brave... stand up be counted. =)

~sigh~

CFB, we've covered all that already too. As GD said, the ideaology of christianity is great. It's the religion that mucks it up. The basic beleif set, excluding the religous nonsense, is great.

The relgious nonsense is ridiculously un-christian, IMHO.

How could the religion muck it up?

It gives a reason to follow those rules. Otherwise, you get people going "well why not?" and thats when you get burglaries, murders and rapes. Of course, a Christian can mess up, but I've seen more non-Christians prosecuted on TV than Christians, because the Christians have a reson (or goal) for following some basic instructions, whereas a non-Christian doesn't really.

quote:

---

The relgious nonsense is ridiculously un-christian, IMHO.

---

Huh!?

The religious "nonsense" is what makes it Christianity. Otherwise it would be "lots of strict rules."

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 08-13-2003).]

quote:

---

but I've seen more non-Christians prosecuted on TV than Christians,

---

So... just exactly how do you know this CFB?

quote:

---

Christians have a reson (or goal) for following some basic instructions, whereas a non-Christian doesn't really.

---

Where does this come from? Please re-read this several times and think about what you've said.

Here let me give you a little nudge.

The majority of the world's population is non-xian.

You seem fixated on the notion that non-xians not only commit more crime than xians but also (non-xians) have a much tougher, if not impossible time being decent human beings.

cfb- I think the distiction that is being made between "religion" and "ideology" is this: Religion is the organization of a theological belief. I'm going to break this down, and quite probably over-simplify so please forgive me.

The basics of Christ's teaching can be summed up as follows: Love your neighbor, be nice to one another (where the 10 commandments can be referenced: you follow those and you minimize harm to others and yourself) Believe in Christ and his death for the sins of mankind- and you will meet the criteria for everlasting life in heaven with the Father.

This is the theological belief. Not a bad idea. Sounds like a good deal.

Enter religion. A bunch of people get together that share this belief. They have ancient texts to help others understand their belief. They gather a following, because this belief seems like a pretty good deal. But along the way one of the "founders" decides that women generally suck. After all, it was Eve that tempted Adam into eating that apple. The only woman worth anything is the Holy Mother, Mary. Eventually the following believes that women are inherently sinful, because the founders "interpreted" the texts and said so. If you disagreed you were told you were a bad Christan and branded a heretic. Heretics go to Hell. The following says, "I don't want to go to Hell, woman you are inherently evil." And it is done. No where that I have found in my perusal of the Bible does it say that woman is inherently evil. But that is what was taught for many, many years.

Religion is human interpretation of a belief. Religion is what happens when theolgians want to control their followers in a specific manner. At the dawn of Christianity, it was not possible for the masses to read the Bible and learn for themselves the words of God. It was left to human priests to interpret, and as has been mentioned several times, humans make mistakes. This is why there are so many denominations of the Christian religion: different church leaders interpret the Bible differently.

No one can say with certainty who has it right. Maybe none of them do, and only the ones who have chosen to follow their own path to Christ have it right.

This is how religion mucks it up. It takes a simple idea, a good idea, and turns it into a complicated morass.

Thank you a lot. I wasn't totally getting what you guys were getting at with the "religion mucks it up." Sorry if I was a bit stupid.

Anyways, yes, in that case, I'd totally agree with you.

I guess it's like people that say: I'm Christian, but I'm not religious.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 08-14-2003).]

Skaarjj said:
"I think it's quite obvious from that that DL is talking about the individual, nevero nce does he state that he is talking about christianity in general, and Dl is the kinda guy who would say if he was talking in that broad a scope."

The irony of this is that you have it backwards. I guess he wasn't 'quite obvious'.

He is questioning why christianity, AS A WHOLE, feels it's okay to excuse the individual wrong-doer. Where as I originally thought he was questioning the individual wrong-doer of excusing his own bad deeds.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

[This message has been edited by peterpansy (edited 08-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by peterpansy (edited 08-14-2003).]

Well actually. I think he was talking about the individual justifying their wrongdoings or passing them off as inconsequential because "I will be forgiven". The wrong-doer isn't excusing his bad deeds. He doesn't have to, God does that for him.

We can continue to debate DL's words but, if that were me, that'd piss me off or amuse me (one or the other) so I'm going to stop now.

DL said:

quote:

---

The basic beleif set, excluding the religous nonsense, is great.

---

GD said:

quote:

---

The idea of christianity is something that I think anyone (for the most part) can agree with and live with.

---

I find this very curious and it makes me wonder why you're both not more open to following it then.

But exactly what that basic belief set is makes all the difference I read GD's break down of what he thinks is basic Xianity and then Moon Dancer offered one too, would it be too much to ask to hear yours DL?

GD, I want to comment on a few of your points. Following the 10 commandments really is not what defines Xianity. I'm not sure you said that but it needs to be clear. A Xian is one who follows Christ and he said that the entire Law (of Moses) could be summed up thusly:

quote:

---

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

---

Paul, who I believe Moon Dancer maligned earlier, said this:

quote:

---

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

---

Putting this basic teaching into practice does lead to all sorts of problems but certainly we're not saying we shouldn't do our best to practice it as purely as we can? Are we? What good is it to honor the concept and then do nothing about it?

Moon Dancer, I like how you summed up the basics. I would pretty much agree with a slight mod to the wording here and there. Yes, it is about recognizing that we cannot live perfect lives on our own and therefore require help from above to cover the crap we do. It is the essence of our faith to cling to the promise of being freed from our sin to do every good work. It's the faith that guarantees our inheritance eternal life and it is our works that guarantee that we have that faith. You cannot separate our faith from our works, they must go hand in hand, with the faith walking one step in front of the works.

I pointed out that you maligned Paul because I just assumed you meant him saying women were evil. I agree with you that there have been Xians over the years who did great harm to women and that was, and is, wrong. Paul on the other hand was not one of them. You will find that he was very much open to women taking there rightful place in the kingdom. The confusion comes into play when you take his recommendations about some specific groups of women out of context and apply them to all women. And he, were he here, would probably love to point out that it is not only women whose natures are wicked but that really can be said for ALL of us.

One more point for GD that really shames me into answering a question brought up by mobrul so many weeks ago and that is... I break your point number 5 almost weekly. Does that make me a bad Xian?

. . : slicePuzzle

Bugimus-
Thank you for pointing that out to me (about Paul). I just wanted to clarify that I actually did not have Paul in mind when I brought up the example of women being evil. (It was the first example that came to mind...)

I'm glad to hear that I guess I'm a bit used to people using him as a scapegoat lately. The debate about homosexuality brings that topic up quite a bit in conversations. I had a friend of mine recently call Paul every profanity he could muster when we were discussing early Xianity and how it applies to the question of sexuality. He felt that Christ outlined this wonderful loving warm and fuzzy religion and then Paul came along and destroyed it with his draconian views.

I guess the way I look at it is that the ten commandments are the breakdown of the "Golden Rule" sort of thinking. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. The same as 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. The rest is extraneous. If you follow any of those basic sentiments everything else falls into place, except belief in Christ. That is the only thing that makes Christians... Christians. Nothing else matters. The rest of the Bible is a book of useless words. If you hold yourself to those two tenets you can't fail to be a good person. This is why I don't follow Christianity. Do I believe in Jesus? I believe he may have been real. The son of God? I can't (choose not to/don't know how to) make that determination. I don't feel that I can call myself Christian for that reason. So I choose to follow something that fits with my sensibilities.

This is the prime basis of my belief structure (Wicca). I believe that not harming anyone, including myself, is the most important thing. I don't worship God(s). I have images for the energies that I feel in the world around me. My vision of my "dieties" is unimportant, as are their names. You call your image 'God' I call my images something else. It's all unimportant to me. All I care about is that people treat one another as the 'Golden Rule' (or the Rede in Wicca) dictate and understand that we are all connected. This is why I don't denounce people for being 'wrong' in their faith. I might criticize them for not following it well (or seeming not too), but never will I tell them they are 'wrong'.

quote:

---

One more point for GD that really shames me into answering a question brought up by mobrul so many weeks ago and that is... I break your point number 5 almost weekly. Does that make me a bad Xian?

---

From the viewpoint of some christians, yes, it makes you a bad christian, because of their definition of christian. I look at it this way, if you follow the theology of the faith you're typically being a better follower of that faith then the religious follower. In my eyes you are a follower of Christ and a believer in God. Christianity (the religion) has little to do with it. You are a nice person, religion IMHO has little to do with that. Your belief in an ideal is what helps guide you to your goals and helps you relate to people with fairness. If you want to call that being Christian, go for it. In your eyes then, you are a 'good' Christian. In some other Christian's eyes, you aren't. In my eyes your just a 'hell of a nice guy'. I could care less WHY you are a nice guy, the fact that you are is enough for me.

I think its important to post how non-christians observe the commandments unknowingly or do know but still don't acknowledge a God.

1. I am the Lord thy God that thou shall not have strange Gods before me. (How many times do we choose what is not good for us and learn from it. Like when we make drugs, alcohol, pornography, vanity, etc our Gods. We know these vices are not good for us. This commandment doesn't necessarly refer to idols figures. It refers to anything that takes you away from good.

2. Do not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. (How many of know that there is somekind of higher intelligence and we know not to take credit for the way of the world and the good in it) We don't boast that we are Gods.

3. Keep the sabbath holy. (Here some of us are not regular weekly churchgoers, but how many of us celebrate Thanksgiving day. Who are we thanking for all. Aren't non-christians thankful for many things in life)

4. Honor your parents (Did we or do we all do this too? Don't most of us have parents?)

5. Thou shall not kill. (Where does society get this law? From God thru Moses?)

6. Thou shall not commit adultery. ( Here I think when non-christians marry or are in a common law relationship, they know to have another realtionship would be considered wrong.

7. Thou shall not steal. (Same as #5 above. Non-christians know its wrong to steal too. Right?)

8. Thou shall not bear false witness against they neighbor. (Here too to accuse someone of a wrong that they did not commit is considered wrong or to slander someone who is innocent is morally wrong we can agree)

9. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife. (Another law non-christians follow. to do so would mean that itat would go against what what society says is morally wrong.

10. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods. ( We might be envious of what our neighbor has like houses, servants, cars, money etc and desire the same. Even non-christians know they shouldn't try to take away what doesn't belong to them)

So see how non-christians are observing the ten commandments also. Where does society get its moral laws? From men or God? The ten commandments are universal laws. All are governed by them.

Jade: A point of note on the last two commandments there:

Definition of covet from the good ol' Dictionary.com:

cov·et ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kvt)
v. cov·et·ed, cov·et·ing, cov·ets
v. tr.
To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's). See Synonyms at envy.
To wish for longingly. See Synonyms at desire.

You have said that

quote:

---

9. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife. (Another law non-christians follow. to do so would mean that itat would go against what what society says is morally wrong.

10. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors goods. ( We might be envious of what our neighbor has like houses, servants, cars, money etc and desire the same. Even non-christians know they shouldn't try to take away what doesn't belong to them)

---

Well, what you've said here doesn't fit with the definition of covet. To know it is not right to try and take what isn't yours is point 5. Thou shalt not steal. To covet it is to wish you had it, and even under 'thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife', what you say non-christians do is not observe that commandment. To do indeed covet it, for to covet it is to be envious of it, becuase to be envious of it is to wish you had it, therefore you covet it.

Even under society's 'morals' we all know that to err is human, well...to lust is also human, and not just the sexual lust that fits with commandment 9, but also the material lust that fits with commandment 10. Do you therefore say that all non-christians break two of 'God's commandments'?

quote:

---

It refers to anything that takes you away from good.

---

I had always thought that it was anything that you put in front of God. Oh well. It thats what it means, well, hehe, I screwed up (no surprise there).
But, I'd have to disagree. Think of all the things that you do in your life that "take away from good." I mean, lets say that God is 100% Good. In the course of a week, I know that I do some stuff that a normal Christian would consider bad, or maybe nuetral: Counter-Strike, D&D, overindulgance, listening to "secular" music etcetera. Lets say that all those are nuetral, well, doing them would take away from that "good" that you are striving for. But God never said that you couldn't do that stuff, he merely said: Don't put it in front of me. That means, don't by playing D&D so long and become so involved in it that you are totally ignoring God. Same with video games and music.

Jade - I have to ask again, what is your point?

Have you not read the rest of the thread?

GD and myslef have said many things regarding the fact that many of the basic beliefs of christianity are things that we our selves agree with and practice.

But the nonsensical religious aspects of it are hat we have the problem with...

Bugimus - as to your question - I beleive ^that statement answers it as well.

I personally do practice many of the things that comprise christianity. But I don't do it because of a "god", I don't do it because a book says so, I don't do it out of fear of punishment or hope of reward. I do so (or try to...) because the basic rights and wrongs are *very* easy to see, and because it is also very clear that there is a good way to live, and a not so good way. When you get into detail, there is plenty of room for disagreement. On the basic level....it's pretty clear.

The idea of Jesus, and the impact he made on the world, is great. The embellishments that are given to his story, and the subsequent doctrines and heirarchies that spun off from them are, IMO, very un-christ-like. Martin Luther sure helped things out a bit, but not enough.

You don't need religion to be a good person.

You don't need religion to have a postive outlook.

You don't need chants and hymns and prayers and beads and crosses and grape juice and robes and pre-fab "interactive" sermons and stained glass windows and giant steeples to share good will.

skarjj said,

quote:

---

Well, what you've said here doesn't fit with the definition of covet. To know it is not right to try and take what isn't yours is point 5. Thou shalt not steal. To covet it is to wish you had it, and even under 'thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife', what you say non-christians do is not observe that commandment. To do indeed covet it, for to covet it is to be envious of it, becuase to be envious of it is to wish you had it, therefore you covet it.

Even under society's 'morals' we all know that to err is human, well...to lust is also human, and not just the sexual lust that fits with commandment 9, but also the material lust that fits with commandment 10. Do you therefore say that all non-christians break two of 'God's commandments'?

---

Yes, your right about covet. I would say regarding your question its the matter of heart. Most of us probably don't follow these laws perfectly but we have the intent and I think it depends on where it takes us when we do break these laws. I am gulity too of not following these laws.

I think its human nature to appreciate the creative nature of God's handiwork in persons. Gosh, how many times a good looking attractive man will come to my view and I take a second look. But if the intent is to lust for this person in a sexual way then I could open up myself for more lustful thoughts. Its like your asleep to these feelings, then you awaken to them. So your open to more temptations. And its where these temptations take us to take action to preform a deed of no good. Here in lies the actual sinful act. Some christians use this line many times " The devil never sleeps". Satan is up working 24/7 to snatch souls. It feeds itself to us little at a time to get us to make that major step of our intended desire. But we too are given strength to overcome temptations or maybe we do the deed and suffer for it in some way or another. We could be judged by our efforts in fighting the temptations.

I know I can be envious of someone too or wish for someone else's easy life or what they have like being rich, better looking, smarter, happier, etc. But I think there is a wrong kind of envy and jealousy where it could lead you to work to achieve for only empty pleasures where you make them more important than God. The commandment law says don't go there and look for temporary gratifications because it will take you away from me, and I am a jealous God. Because in the end it will not have mattered how rich, handsome, beatuiful, or smart you are. You become dirt just like the poor, unacttractifve, feeble minded.

In regard to the statement about women thought of as being evil in the early christian days, I think this is so wrong. In the early Christian church women were very instrumental in shaping christianity. If the mindset goes back to story of Eve being the one who made Adam sin, and its because of Eve that sin entered the world and she gets the blame, then this story has been so misunderstood. Eve was intended to show the female side of God, to show greatness and perfection, but she gave in to destructive self pride, which is the ruin of many souls. Adam the same way. The NT tells us that Jesus & Mary broke the chains of the bondage of mankind by opening the doors of salvation. The woman that scripture speaks of in this verse "the woman's heel will crush the head of the serpent is Mary. Who else could it be? In the early christian church Mary is mother of the church(christ) and is a key figure in directing us to her son Jesus in scripture and today. In the wedding feast of Canna, the servants complain of no wine to Mary. Mary tells Jesus of this. Mary knows before hand what Jesus will answer. When Jesus says, Woman, what have I to do with this, my hour has not yet come. It seems like Jesus is being so disrespectful when he says this, but he is speaking of his passion. Mary says to the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them. The scripture has a double meaning. And it is meant for us today.
Some Christians refer to Mary as mother of the earth "Mother earth" Because of her, the savior came. Women are all over scripture too and were very instrumental in the preparation for coming of salvation.

So I think the view as women being tools of evil equates them with the devil and thats unfair. For some Christian women, Mary the mother of Jesus is a role model to follow.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-15-2003).]

Jade-
With regards to my example about women being perceived as inherently evil- this is what I draw from:

1. It was only until recent times that women could actually lead a congregation. Up until then the highest level a woman could reach in the church was that of a Mother Superior and in the eyes of the church, she still held less power than the local priests. In the Catholic Church, a woman cannot even be a priest.

2. In the Burning Times, it was women who were hunted down, persecuted, & put to death in extraordinary disproportion to men all in the name of the Christian Church. Women were more likely to be branded heretics, witches (in the derrogatory context) and consorts of Satan because the church said women were inherently wicked and more prone to sin. This is not limited to the Catholic Church.

From what I know of the Bible, it never states that women are inherently evil. It says that certain groups of women are sinful and should be avoided. (Thank-you Bugimus for that piece of education) I've said this before. The point I was trying to make was the difference between the Idea and the Application. Are you able to see the distinction?


{edit-random puctuation}



[This message has been edited by Moon Dancer (edited 08-15-2003).]