Topic awaiting preservation: What is your purpose? (Page 1 of 3)

What is your purpose? Why are you people so violently trying to destroy God with YOUR philosophies. What is your purpose, to claim God as the athiest do? Do you really wish to help others with this, with your secular humanism, or are you just trying to disprove something you dont understand. Maybe some of you should try reading ALL of the Bible and living it, before you judge anything. How will you ever learn what that Teacher says if you are always contradicting Him? Think about where YOU stand in this. Is this a selfish, destructive action, or are you really trying to help anyone? God is too wise for a human mind to comprehend. Maybe you should just try out the Bible..all of it....God works, whether you believe it or not. Just try it. If I am lying, then let me die a cursed death, but I tell you, that if you truely live out the true meaning of God's word, you shall see truth. Anybody who contradicts me will not be answered. I will only answer to those who are willing and stand with open minds. For who tries to show a light to a blind man?

Are you alive?

Hi Gabriel, welcome to the Asylum.

quote:

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Anybody who contradicts me will not be answered. I will only answer to those who are willing and stand with open minds.

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These statements are in and of themselves a contradiction. If you will only speak to those that share your mindset, then who is guilty of the closed mind?

{edit-spelling}

[This message has been edited by Moon Dancer (edited 08-20-2003).]

Welcome to the Asylum.

Please tell me, Gabriel, do you love God?

. . : slicePuzzle

Supposing I am violently trying to destroy God... Yes, my keyboard already feels the pain, I can be very very violent you know. So, you are basically asking why people refute God's existence ?

Because most of the time it doesn't add anything good to people. I don't care about what others people worship, it isn't my problem. But when this thing makes people become lambs, I try to remove it. Because when I speak with religious people, they refuse to consider anything scientific, they refuse to consider anything that is not written is the 'holy writtings'. Humans are already enough stupid to have them close minded.

Because nowadays trusting in God is almost purposeless. During the dark and middle ages, trusting in God was useful because it helped people to bear their harsh life, they had an 'assurance' of a better and easier life after their death. Nowadays, isn't our life luxurious enough ? You need to trust in a probably non-existent after-life to live in happiness and serenity ?

Because in Texas where religious extremists are strong and close of the governement, because in Texas where school books are bought by the state, it is almost impossible to find a book speaking of evolution, and in school, children find in their books "God created the world and every living forms in it". Because teaching false things about our world and history to children is criminal.

Because the Bible doesn't hold the truth. The Bible was written four centuries after the death of Jesus (did you know it ?). All the fantastic events you can read in it are true events that happened, caused by the eruption of a volcano in Mediterranean sea, but magnified by centuries. Talks about objectivity...

"God is too wise for a human mind to comprehend." That's true. Throught history, millions of people fought and died in religious wars whose reaons were only the understanding of a religious point. And thousands of people still die nowadays in his name. That's true, I don't understand the wiseness in it... Can you explain it to me ?

Now you see why I try to 'destroy' God. But I forgot, I won't be answered... As Moon Dancer pointed out, close minded...

Just a side note : I am speaking for most religious people. Some people here proved me they were open minded



[This message has been edited by Moon Shadow (edited 08-20-2003).]

I'll answer this, and keep in mind that I am a Christian:

What is your purpose?

Their purpose is to tell others about their religions and philosophies just like you would try and tell someone about your religion and philosophies.

Why are you people so violently trying to destroy God with YOUR philosophies.

I haven't seen that. At least not the violently part. What I've seen are people that contradict what you beleive (*gasp* *shudder*) because they have different beleifs. The Asylum is a melting pot of philosophies, theologies and religions, and when you have all that combined, well, it's like mixing a bunch of diffrent viscosity liquids, they seperate and fight with each other. Just as you would try and pick apart and discredit Islam, a Muslim would try to pick apart and discredit Christianity. And it's generally very civil, not violent.

Do you really wish to help others with this, with your secular humanism, or are you just trying to disprove something you dont understand.

Is their anything wrong with being a secular humanist, or, should I say, anything more wrong than being Bhuddist, Christian or Jewish? And maybe they can help others with secular humanism. And of course they are trying to disprove something that they don't understand, just as I would try and prove the same thing that I don't understand.

Maybe some of you should try reading ALL of the Bible and living it, before you judge anything.

Maybe you should try reading ALL of the Qoran and living as a Muslim before judging it. People have their beleifs, which they think are right. I don't need to be a member of a baby-sacrificing cult in order to be able to pass judgment on it. All that is required to be done before any judgment is passed is thorough research.

How will you ever learn what that Teacher says if you are always contradicting Him?

They can learn what God says by reading the Bible, but they don't nescisarraly have to beleive anything in it. I can learn something that I think is false, like the theory of Macroevolution and still be able to contradict it.

Is this a selfish, destructive action, or are you really trying to help anyone?

Just as much as you, or I am trying to help someone by introducing them to Christianity. They have a world-view and a religious view that they think is right, just like I, and just like you have a world view and a religions view that I think is right.

God is too wise for a human mind to comprehend.

I agree.

Maybe you should just try out the Bible..all of it....God works, whether you believe it or not.

I'd agree that "God works," but if they don't want to try out the Bible, then they don't have to. What do you mean by try it out. Magic works, but I'm not going to go buy a spell book and do spells.

Anybody who contradicts me will not be answered.

Oh, Mr. Christian...God warned against being blind man. Maybe if you had a more open mind, then you'd be able to LEARN something.

I will only answer to those who are willing and stand with open minds.

Hmm. Thats interesting. So what is your idea of an open mind. Someone can have an open mind and still contradict you.

I will only answer to those who are willing and stand with open minds. For who tries to show a light to a blind man?

Wohoooo!!!! Ignor them Gabriel, don't get drawn in to these waste of time and negative and sometimes poisonous offerings. As open minded and as subtle as it may appears some would like nothing better than another target to shoot at... to reiniforce their inabilty to believe and experience. It's all philosophical garbage ...and remember where you posted... 'Philosophy and other Silliness' Don't even try to explain yourself... Jesus did not tell his followers to go to political debates and get into arguments and pointless discussions. He said"'my sheep know my voice"... They will call you closed minded, narrow, contradictory blah blah.. take no notice, keep your peace and thoughts and leave others with theirs. (yes I will get castigated for this but ... so what)

Have a lovely day.




[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 08-20-2003).]

Yeah be stupid, you dont have to study anything beside bible

well that sounds stupid in itself because he did not say that..

quote:

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Maybe you should just try out the Bible...

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If you can't see what is right in front of your face... who is really blind?

I'll answer this, and keep in mind that I am an atheistic humanist-rationalist:

What is your purpose?

Define "purpose" and I'll give you an answer.

Why are you people so violently trying to destroy God with YOUR philosophies.

"God" cannot be destroyed if he does not exist. Even if there was "God", what does it matter if people attempt to destroy him? I thought you believed (irrational) that "God" is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and the latest I've heard is that the word "God" is an omniword. As for your emphasis on "your", I should ask, "Why are you people so violently trying to debase the values of the scientific method and force YOUR belief system on us?" Granted, "you people" is a very prejudicial and very general term, and is not a phrase I would normally use under any circumstance.

What is your purpose, to claim God as the athiest do?

Since when have we claimed "God"? By the way, understand the term "atheist" as nontheists have been using for centuries.

A-: without
-theist: god-beliefs.

Atheist: a person without god-beliefs of any kind.

Do you really wish to help others with this, with your secular humanism, or are you just trying to disprove something you dont understand.

Have you ever considered the reality that it is you who does not understand? Have you ever done any scientific research or made any rational inquiries into your belief system? Or have you merely dismissed such practices without taking a second look?

Maybe some of you should try reading ALL of the Bible and living it, before you judge anything.

Perhaps you should attempt to understand the ontogenesis of the Gurwitschian perceptual structure, memetic engineering and its use in the marketing environment, or learn about Darwinism before you (and most of your Christian fellows) create erroneous assertions like "Darwin said we evolved from monkeys." By the way, the founders of the U.S. were Deists not Christians. (Added just for a little more info.)

How will you ever learn what that Teacher says if you are always contradicting Him?

How will you ever become a rational, intelligent human being if you simply believe whatever is preached to you? The prospect of a life such as mine (the propagation and defense of the values of reason, empathy, vision, and education, and the disintegration of dogma, apathy, and hypocrisy) may not appeal to you as much as eternal happiness in the afterlife until you realize that what your belief system offers is entirely fictional.

Is this a selfish, destructive action, or are you really trying to help anyone?

Is the fire that rages across dry plains destructive, or constructive? In any case, the promotion and acceptance of the values I have listed above will definitely ensure the continued survival of our species until the Singularity.

God is too wise for a human mind to comprehend.

Unsupported assertion based on irrational beliefs. All belief is essentially irrational, as belief can only occur where acceptance is not compelled, for if acceptance is compelled, then belief is not required to accept that thing. Belief is thus the acceptance of some thing as being provisionally true where: contradictory evidence exists which throws doubt upon or compels the rejection of the thing being accepted as truth; or where insufficient evidence exists to compel or suggest acceptance of the thing as truth.

Maybe you should just try out the Bible..all of it....God works, whether you believe it or not.

The values I've listed work. In fact, the memes they propagate are far more beneficial than Christianity or any other religion has ever been in the past 4000-5000 years.

Anybody who contradicts me will not be answered.

Then I presume I will be ignored. However, the rejection and fabrication of evidence are not rational actions.

I will only answer to those who are willing and stand with open minds.

Go back to church and preach to the choir if you are unwilling to lend an ear to opposing viewpoints.

counterfeitbacon
Thanks for creating a nicely formatted reply. You made my day a lot easier.

_________________________
A devil's work is never done.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 08-20-2003).]

Gabriel - and maybe you should read every *other* book on religious value, and try *them* out thoroughly before settling on just one book.

quote:
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. . . After all, a closed mind is a safe soul.
Wesley Treat 2003
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k, moon shadow, do some research before you speak. i went thru public school in texas and contrary to apparent popular belief evolution is taught and creationism is briefly mentioned.

as far as the rest of your comments, despite your disclaimer i'm almost offended. so many people judge christianity on such a small segment of society they've encountered and write the majority of the population off because of it. the thing is, i could grab any person off the street, no matter what their faith, and 90% of them couldn't tell me a thing about creation vs evolution, anything scientific in general, or argue critically about world events going on. MOST people are sheep, regardless of race, color, or creed. critical thinkers (and especially the media) have just found christianity an easier target.

chris

p.s. most of it was huxley's idea


KAIROSinteractive

Some research ? I was inventing facts Fig...

- Norman Spinrad, in the French edition of Other Americas, wrote a preface, in which he denounced what I said.
- And I know a girl of my age who lives in Texas, and who said exactly the same.

And I don't believe they lied. Perhaps it didn't happen to you, but I think it happened and still happens in Texas.

About your second point... It is right that a lot of people nowadays are sheeps. I am willing to admit that they might be as numerous among religious people as among atheist people. But you will hardly withdraw my conviction that religion, most of the time, makes of them even more stupid people.

And my apologizes if I offended you, that wasn't my point, really.

So MS

Speaking as another Texan, I second Fig "do more research"
And he is right about God. There are more faithful belivevers than non-believers in the world
Worldly there are only a small number of athiest, if thats what they really call themselves.

Your statement about religious persons being stupid only shows ignorance on your part. Talking about who is closed minded.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-20-2003).]

Welcome, Gabriel.

May I know something of yourself?

For my own part -

I'm 27, live in the United States, and I am very open minded. I am not a Christian. I am, however, willing to objectively discuss things with you, be they of the religious context or not.

Understand this definition of open minded discussion rules:

• Statements of beliefs are not to be geared towards conversion. This defeats the purpose of open minded, educational discussion.
• No one is to be told that they are wrong in their beliefs. This just creates angst and strife between those few who wish to attack each other and disrupts the learning of the willing. Condemnation is not accepted.
• For the same reasons as above, no name calling, bashing or vulgarity. These are all disruptive to the discussion and cause tempers to flare. Please keep it to a minimum.
• NO EXCESSIVE QUOTING - Open minded discussion requires statements of belief and an understanding of other beliefs. There can be no understanding if someone elses words are used. It gives no real information about the person speaking.
• NO EXCESSIVE EDITING - It is hard to follow what someone is saying when what they have said keeps changing. Typos are expected and usually easy to work through. Too many times have I seen entire posts deleted because of embarassment or persecution. I would prefer that people speak their minds and stand up for what they believe.

If you choose to accept these basic understandings of open discussion I will be happy to talk with you.

These rules are not Asylum rules. These are my basic requirements for a calm, productive, open minded discussion for those willing to learn.

So, care to toe the line, Gabriel?



[EDIT]Added a rule.[/EDIT]

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-20-2003).]

*sigh*

There are 1,100,000,000 people in the world who don't believe in God(s). And yes atheists it is really what they call themselves. That's not exactly a small number I would say. And this number comes from Encarta 2002 Deluxe (in case you didn't trust what I said).

From my readings, from what I know, from the people I know, from the reflections I had, I came to the opinion that :

- Religion throught history was often used as a weapon of mass distraction, to manipulate people. And is still used in this purpose. Does the word "Jihad" echo something in the latest world news for you ? People are still manipulated by religions.

- Religion throught history was often used as a means to prevent questionning (only in western religions, eastern religions praise questionning), and to make people live in situations they shouldn't have agreed with. "Why us peasants must be slaves under this master ? It's God's will !".

- Religion caused thousands of deaths, and stopped progress for decades (not to say centuries). You know, what was called 'inquisition', which threated many scientists to deny their works, otherwise they would be burned as 'heretics' ?

- Religion, nowadays, is widely represented by TV evangelists. "Blessed people" who promise other people the redemption and a safe after-life, given of course they send their money. To me, an exploitation of weak minds.

So, in my humble opinion, religion most of time manipulates people, gives them easy answers instead of letting humans think, making of them super sheeps.

Now tell me why I am wrong.

GD : well spoken, I shall be softer next time

Ah, edited some spellings too.

[This message has been edited by Moon Shadow (edited 08-20-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Moon Shadow (edited 08-20-2003).]

Welcome too, Gabriel.
I love that name.
I named my two sons after angels, Gabriel and Michael.
I am Christian also and am of the family of the Catholic church.

Your views are welcome and I hope to learn from you as I have learned from many posters on this site.

MD, it may happen in some small towns (which i'd doubt is exclusive to texas or any particular country for that matter) but not anywhere of note that i've ever heard of. i'd be curious exactly where your friend went to school, i attended one of the top districts in the state (in a suburb of houston) and creation was barely mentioned and I can't recall ever hearing God discussed in a science class. your comment is the first i've heard of that, sounds like an attempted shot against bush and other conservative leadership (not by you personally, by whomever is perpertrating the rumor).

as far as religion breeding stupidity, i can understand in a sense where you're coming from but i disagree. i personally have a problem with many aspects of organized religion and actually agree with several of your points in the other thread, religion (while well-intended) often completely missed the point and puts things in the way of people and God as opposed to drawing them closer.

at the same time that doesn't change what i believe is truth and that many people, tho misguided or imperfect in their following of the faith, have had a life-changing experience with God and are in a better place because of it. i saw it happen to a kid less than a month ago, he is a completely different person now. without the right guidance its possible he'll live off that one experience, knowing that the God of the bible is very real and has changed him but never exploring further to test more of his faith (which i think is the case with a lot of christians). is that right? well, its certainly not ideal, but does that put him in a better place than the person religiously following MTV, binge-drinking and doing whatever else on the weekends to try to satisfy themselves? that may sound very sterotypical, but i work with teenagers on a regular basis and its very, very real.

and no offense taken, no worries, i'm just trying to get you guys to see that there's two sides to every coin. just like some of you may find bugs, jk, myself, etc. to be atypical when it comes to christians, realize that a lot of you are the same way to us.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Fig

Thats Ok. I am not offended when you don't lump me into Christianity also. Its not rare that non-catholic christians don't consider, catholics christian.
You have done this on more than one post.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-20-2003).]

no offense intended jade, but to be honest i can see you in both categories. i'll admit that i don't consider a lot of catholics as "christian" simply because i don't believe they've accepted and have a personal relationship with christ, the foundation of christianity. i saw this time and time again growing up in the catholic church. i do believe you've got that relationship, so not considering you as christian would be unfair and illogical of me. at the same time some of your comments do seem to indicate a mentality of the church being the end-all of knowledge and simply accepting those truths as opposed to questioning and seeking (which i realize is essentially catholic doctrine). a lot of things the catholic church teaches are IMO contradictory to scripture as we've discussed before.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Welcome Gabriel, (from a Taoist)

I just wanted to say, the views expressed by counterfeitbacon and GrythusDraconis are wonderful. They describe my feelings exactly, but they have presented them in a far better manner than I ever could. Thank you guys If more people thought and acted as you have, this would be a far better planet to live on.
If you are at all interested in my thoughts on your comments, have a peek in my Cell and look for "Tecumseh". Then we can share the (proverbial or not) peacepipe and be.
Tao

quote:

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Why are you people so violently trying to destroy God with YOUR philosophies.

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What else can we destroy him with? His own philosophies?...oh, wait...that's right...God doesn't have philosophies, for that would be questioning the nature, and therefore the existance, of God, there for God cannot have philosophies.

But a philosophy is a necessary part of belief. You cannot have belief without a philosophy, because a philosophy is how you define the boundaries of belief. Something with no boundaries is infinite, and infinity cannot exist. Even (the christian) God is not infinite, for God can only exist in a willing mind and a willing heart, and there are minds and hearts out there which are not willing to accept the Christian idea of God. We call them 'people of other religions' (yes...they do exist, there's no use in denying it). They do not accept your idea of God, but they do accept another idea of God. I don't accept your idea of God, but I do accept another idea of God. It's my own personal idea, and it's the way I see God around me in the world everyday. Therefore by calling your God 'infinite' (as I know many do, having been a christian for most of my life) you yourself are proclaiming that he doesn't exist.

But I digress...quite often actually....

What we do here is debate the existance and the nature of God in the world. We don't try to destroy him, for, as Christianity proclaims, God is a supreme being. How can we possibly hope to destroy someone who can spin the heavens and earth out of whole cloth in just *cough* seven days? If in fact you are the staunch Christian you make yourself out to be, you would know this, and you would also be secure in your belief that God cannot be destroyed, for he holds Lordship and Dominion (sounds like Star Trek now) over all. So by the very fact that you come here and accuse us of trying to destroy God using our 'philosophies' you show yourself to be none too secure in your own beliefs.

quote:

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to claim God as the athiest do?

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Ha...This point had me laughing for a moment...Athiests...Do you try and claim God? For to claim something is to acknowledge that it exists...you cannot claim that which does not exist. This statement is so wrong that it is actually the direct opposite of what Athiests do.

quote:

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For who tries to show a light to a blind man?

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OK...I won't bother trying to show you any light, for you yourself are the blind man that you speak of...you are so engrained in your beliefs that they have turned you in on yourself. You cannot see the light for your own purity. You, my friend, are truly the blind man, not becuase you can't see other's beliefs as valid, but becuase you refuse to see them.

Then again, why am I writing this? You've already said I'm not going to get a reply, becuase I have commited the ultimate sacreligious act...I have contradicted you! *GASP* Dear God no! I don't want to do what you do yourself. After all...why should I help you contradict yourself? You do such a good job on your own .

More later...

[edit]Damn fingers...spell the words right![/edit]

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 08-20-2003).]

Fig

Thats no news to me. Its been happening since the dawn of Christianity. If some of you posters are not educated in the ways of Christians dissenting with one another on who is more of a christian than others, its very tragic. We dissect Jesus, flesh and bone and pull him apart. How painful it must be.

Maybe Fig your more of a Christian than I am. Regardless, I consider you a christian if you believe you are.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-20-2003).]

jade, i'm not going to argue about semantics or who should be called what (nor did i intend to call or not call anyone anything), i simply don't agree with everything that you do as far as theology (which we've been thru before as i mentioned) and as such you appear somewhat closed-minded at times. if you really want to discuss what makes someone christian vs not start a new thread and i'd be happy to discuss it with you.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Fig

You know, I could say its one wall up against another, but I am open enough to know that Jesus is for everybody. I dont claim more right to him than any other Christian sect.

To go there and debate like we have before doesn't help you or me. Just gives other poster gazers a view on how Christians proclaim to love one another and spread his peace and harmony by butting heads.

If you want to discuss scripture passages and communicate on how you see it without saying your right and I am wrong, I am all for it. I would love it.

Wow.

Skaarjj - Nice post there. Loved the logic behind 'God is infinite' = 'God doesn't exist'. And DS9's also the first thing I think of whenever I hear "Dominion" (Your own... personal... Odo...). When I hear people like Gabriel come so close to ranting about their beliefs, it makes me question the strength of those beliefs. The poster doth protest too much, to paraphrase Shakespeare. And to not even be willing to hear any contradictions or arguments? Why even bother getting on the Internet?

I have to admit, though, to taking a small amount of sadistic pleasure from the idea that people like that probably spend most of their lives very unhappy due to their neverending encounters with people who disagree either with their beliefs, theology, rote rejection of differing ideas or fashion sense.

And if you want a movie that sums up modern religion very nicely, rent "Monty Python's Life of Brian".

My advice? Forget the shoe; follow the gourd...



Evil in theory, not so much in practice...

jade, i have no desire to debate with you and wasn't trying to. i was simply trying to make a point to those who write off christians as stereotypical sheep, one that's probably been lost by now due to this sidebar.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

"Even if they should remove this monument -- and God forbid they do -- they'll never be able to remove it from our hearts," said the Rev. Greg Dixon of Indianapolis Baptist Church. From CNN Online.

This quote is in regards to the whole Ten Commandments monument issue in the Alabama state judicial building.

This brings up a couple of thoughts:

1) What if a Muslim judge put up a monument to the Koran? What about a Buddhist judge with a big stone Buddha in the lobby? Would the people at these prayer vigils still be there? Or would they be protesting its presence? If this judge wins, what will they say when someone wants to put up a Star of David?

2) About the quote above, if the Ten Commandments are already in their hearts, why do they need a monument? Isn't having it in their hearts more important than having it in their state judicial building? If it is, shouldn't they be content with that? If it isn't more important, shouldn't it be? It just sounds like a bunch of people who feel the need to forcefully inject their religion into every facet of their lives. Note I said 'forcefully inject'. Some people live their beliefs. Others, it seems, let their beliefs live them. It's the difference between living your life in accord with what you feel is right, and plastering up the symbols of your chosen religion as publicly as possible, so as to convince yourself as much as other people.

"Moore, who installed the monument in the rotunda of the judicial building two years ago, contends it represents the moral foundation of American law and that a federal judge has no authority to make him remove it."

3) The moment that a judge, sworn to uphold the law, claims that they are above that law, it's time for them to go.



Evil in theory, not so much in practice...

Wangenstein-
You bring up some very good questions that I have often thought about myself. I have no problem with the 10 Commandments or any other part of Christian Scripture put on public walls - provided- any other religion has the freedom to do the same. Go ahead and put the Commandments on the school walls, right up alongside the Wiccan Rede, the moral guidances from the Q'ran, and the teachings of the Buddha. Somehow I don't think that would fly. 1. Because I think there would be "righteous" protests and 2. I don't think leaders of some of the other religions would seek to do so because they don't have the incessant need to propagandize their faith and force it down the not always so willing masses throats.

[edit Forgot a word... oops. /edit]


[This message has been edited by Moon Dancer (edited 08-21-2003).]

quote:

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What is your purpose?

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...sometimes to plant, sometimes to water, sometimes to reap.
And what, might I ask, is your purpose?

*now, I will go back and read the responses to your post...just remember this:

~jeremiah was a bullfrog~

The promotional aspect of Christianity (and other traditional religions) is primarily a Western feature.

_________________________
A devil's work is never done.

Fig : It is perhaps an attack against the governement... I don't know, I don't know enough American politic to think about it objectively. About Norman Spinrad : Norman Spinrad was formerly American, now he is French. Because he wrote novels in which he criticized the governement, his author's rights were 'stolen' by the tax authorities. That's why now he write in France, there is no censorship about books in France (and he can earn his living). Perhaps what he said was an exagerated attack against the governement, though I wouldn't think that of him. Furthermore, I removed my MSN account (see the topic in Ozone about MSN), but I emailed the girl I know about this topic. I'll let you know when she'll give me her answer.

But thinking more about it, we were disagreeing on what religion brings to somebody. I don't think it is possible to define it. Because everyone is different, perceive things differently, need different believes, nobody will ever find the same thing in religion. I can consider it makes people sheeps because it fills them with believes I don't trust in nor see the interest in our society, but, like in your example, it can truly enlighten someone...

When it comes to human opinions and believes, no generalizations should be made, which everyone, I included, tend to do. And, to come back to Gabriel's post and what GD said, wanting to impose our opinion is necessarily wrong. Ultimately, even considering everything possible in religion probably won't change the way I perceive it because I associate it to an intellectual laziness. But I'll stick to what my mom is used to say : "You need everything to make a world" (my translation is approximate).

Catholics or Protestants, Budhists or Atheists, Hinduits or Taoists (Mr Baybee are you here ? ), whatever. As Wangestein wonderfully said it : " Some people live their beliefs. Others, it seems, let their beliefs live them. It's the difference between living your life in accord with what you feel is right, and plastering up the symbols of your chosen religion as publicly as possible, so as to convince yourself as much as other people.". I wouldn't limit it to religions though. Ultimately, there is no need to shout everywhere our believes, to cry for monuments, to convince of our opinions, because ultimately, our opinion is unique, and will only fit perfectly in ourselves.



[This message has been edited by Moon Shadow (edited 08-21-2003).]

I had a good response but OzoneAsylum requires me to fill out a passworod each time. :\

Basically, Moon Shadow, you need to differentiate between "belief" and "truth." The two concepts are not alike.

_________________________
A devil's work is never done.

Wangenstein, I'll take a shot at answering some of the points you brought up.

quote:

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1) What if a Muslim judge put up a monument to the Koran? What about a Buddhist judge with a big stone Buddha in the lobby? Would the people at these prayer vigils still be there? Or would they be protesting its presence? If this judge wins, what will they say when someone wants to put up a Star of David?

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If the local community has a large Muslim and/or Buddhist population, then I have little problem with it. I am pretty sure that the people who are protesting *this* issue in Alabama would not like it and would be protesting Muslim or Buddhist symbols. When they added Wicca to the militaries list of religions to have chaplins for, I believe there was some opposition by other religious groups, so I point to that as an example.

I think I tend more towards Moon Dancer's approach. I want to see more religious freedom in this country and not less.

I seriously doubt this group would have a problem with the Star of David though. American Xians, by and large, are different from European ones. American Xians are very friendly to Jews and hold them in very high regard based on their reading of some of the End Times portions of the Bible. The fact that we're talking about the 10 commandments here is another indication of that. Notice the judge did not post the Golden Rule or any New Testament passage.

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2) About the quote above, if the Ten Commandments are already in their hearts, why do they need a monument? Isn't having it in their hearts more important than having it in their state judicial building? If it is, shouldn't they be content with that?

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Monuments are important. They reaffirm what a country holds in high regard or they remind us of important concepts. This is not, or should not, be an either or situation. The fact of the matter is that our law is based on the Judeo-Christian teachings. Having this monument is just fine with me. What I want to know is why removing it has become such a priority? This is not a violation of a separation of church and state by any stretch of the imagination and I am getting very tired of cultural and religious nazis parading under the banner of "freedom" going around and doing their level best to prevent free expression. The founding fathers did not intend for that phrase to become an excuse to "elimate" any mention of religion from public discourse. It should not be used in that fashion.

Now there are legimate cases that come up where the line between religion and state is crossed but this is not one of them. Basically I support the ACLU when if confines its attacks on those who are taking freedoms away from others or imposing their religion on others but as soon as the ACLU becomes the ones infringing on rights I pull back that support. And I am sad to say they are doing far more of the latter.

metahuman, what exactly do you mean about differentiating belief and truth. (and I always highlight and save my long responses to the clipboard before I post to guard against losing them, I know how much it hurts to lose all that typing)

. . : slicePuzzle

>> [Bugimus said...] The fact of the matter is that our law is based on the Judeo-Christian teachings.

False. The founders of the USA were Deists not Christians. They abhorred Christianity.

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A devil's work is never done.

I cannot speak for other religions, but in Christianity our belief is that we are called to make disciples of all nations. We must spread the gospel. The Holy Spirit compels us to do so. To not do so is un-christrian. This includes praying for all to know who Christ was and is without stepping out our front door. So maybe you guys can cut us some slack. We are just trying and I repeat trying to live out our faith. So we cannot be content to live to keep Christ to ourselves. So you can view Christians shoving down Christ in persons throats, but that is not how we see it. If we are criticized, castigated, made fun of, be-littled or have recieved ill treatment because of our faith by others in spreading the gospel, we are according to the words of christ to "shake the dust from our feet" and move on. And also from Christ " All those who hear you, hear me". So for 2000+ years this has been going on and will continue to do so till the end of time. So, Christianity is here to stay. Maybe those who don't want to accept Jesus as the savior could get as educated as they can in scripture so they can know where christians are coming from.

LOL! Ignorance and miseducation in its purest form. ^
At least you are not claiming that evolution unreal and creationism is truth.

You have no idea how much you do not know.

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A devil's work is never done.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 08-21-2003).]

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If the local community has a large Muslim and/or Buddhist population, then I have little problem with it. I am pretty sure that the people who are protesting *this* issue in Alabama would not like it and would be protesting Muslim or Buddhist symbols.

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It is not equality if, in the absence of the group in question, the groups rights become unimportant.

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I had a good response but OzoneAsylum requires me to fill out a passworod each time

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You CAN hit the back button (at least in IE). Also, after you have logged in once, go to preferences and click the radio button to have the Asylum remember your Password and Username. It will only work at the location you set it up.



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-21-2003).]

GrythusDraconis: The system erratically remembers my login details despite the options that are set.

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A devil's work is never done.

metahuman, before you throw around insults like that you may want to do a little introspection. I'm sorry but I think you are generalizing to the point of inaccuracy. Some of the founders were most certainly deists and many were christians. Nearly all of them based their views on Judeo-Christian teachings. I think if you look into it you will find that is the case. Keep in mind that having a foundation on Judeo-Christian concepts does not mean you are an overtly religious person or for that matter religious at all.

GD, just because local community standards don't represent all peoples does not mean that the things not represented are unimportant. I just think that every community should be allowed to celebrate their own culture. I don't see it any different than expecting to find certain types of music and cuisine when I travel to different parts of the country.

. . : slicePuzzle