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metahuman
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 92064
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-25-2003 05:46

http://monotheism.us/index.html
http://www.thehappyheretic.com/11-97.htm
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
http://cgi.citizen-times.com/cgi-bin/story/editorial/3952
http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Deists
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/
http://www.politicalamazon.com/ff-quotes.html
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/

quote:
The decisive legislation in Virginia was Thomas Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom. It provided: "That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever.." Jefferson regarded this statement as one of his most significant accomplishments and directed that it be engraved on his grave marker after his death.



_________________________
A devil's work is never done.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 08-25-2003).]

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 08-25-2003).]

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 08-25-2003 05:49

metahuman: Do you have a point? I see an emerging theme in your posts but don't keep us guessing.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

metahuman
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 92064
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-25-2003 05:59

My point is the sum of the literary content contained in all of those links/articles.

_________________________
A devil's work is never done.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 06:05

But you need to apply it to the people you are speaking with here. This is where you are losing me. You have to state what you are hearing me say and *then* show why you agree or disagree with all or part of it. I feel you are mischaracterizing my position.

Taobaybee
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Feb 2003

posted posted 08-25-2003 15:20

"American Presidents"?? Humm, interesting,
(follows link to see the discussion)
What's this? Twelve links! From a person I have seen (in other posts here) C'n'P huge wads of OP's opinions rather than simply and clearly stating his/or her own.
You expect me to "absorb" the "sum of the literary content contained in all of those links/articles" just so I can understand your point. Heh
No thanks.

Shiiizzzam
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Nurse's Station
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 15:44

yuh...what you said works for me ^^^^^

It seems there's a pattern forming with metahuman's post

metahuman
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 92064
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-25-2003 16:46

This thread is essentially for Bugimus and I. If you notice in the purpose thread, I responded to Bugimus that we were getting off-topic and we should create a new thread.

A good short book on the subject is:
The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness.

By the way, there seems to be a pattern forming with Shizam's and Emperor's posts...

quote:
But you need to apply it to the people you are speaking with here. This is where you are losing me. You have to state what you are hearing me say and *then* show why you agree or disagree with all or part of it. I feel you are mischaracterizing my position.

I'm characterizing your position quite accurately. You feel that the USA was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, but your assertion is untrue. Granted, there may be similarities between American law and "God's law", but remember, only two of the 10 Commandments apply to US law.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 08-25-2003).]

Shiiizzzam
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Nurse's Station
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 17:05

Threads are open to anyone wanting to post. However, no worries, as I won't be wasting my time on your off chasing rabbits type of topics.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 08-25-2003 17:54

metahuman: The pattern that is emerging in Shi and my posts (and TBB and Bugs) is that we'd like you to actually make a point here rather than posting links to other resources.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

The Jackal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Dark Side of the Moon
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 20:51

If I may jump in here (and I will), but you seem to be confining "god's law" as just the Ten Commandments. Taken as a whole, we see that there are a multitude of Biblical laws that are established on a federal and state level. Here are just a few:

Don't kill (Exodus 20:13)
Don't steal (Exodus 20:15)
Don't have sex with animals (Leviticus 20:15)
Don't lie (Exodus 20:16; Leviticus 19:11)
Don't commit adultery (Exodus 20:14)
Do not commit incest (Leviticus 18:6-18)
Do not judge partially (Leviticus 19:15)
Pay hired workers their dues (Leviticus 19:13)
Do not be bigamists (Leviticus 20:14)

I could name more, but I think my point is clear. You might notice metahuman that there are four, not two, of the Ten Commandments that are standard law in this country. While history and facts reveal that this country was created on Judeo-Christian ethics, this does not mean that the Bible does not show a clear delineation between church and state. It was Jesus Himself that said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Nowhere in the Bible do we see the people of Israel being forced into submission. Indeed Romans chapter 13 deals in detail with submission to local authorities, unless those authorities do that which is evil (such as murder the innocent, etc.).

We have to get away from this false idea that Christian ethics are bad. We must also get away from the idea that government provides people with their rights. As the Declaration of Independence states, men "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men." God provides the rights and government protects them.

As Thomas Jefferson put it, "Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

The solution to the problem is not more government involvement, but less.

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." -Thomas Jefferson

Now there was a wise man!

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 21:22

One important point, Jackal - "...endowed by their CREATOR...":

It does *not* say "god". It does not necessarily have tp mean god. That's the whole point of using that term - to remove it from any specific religion. =)

Nobody has said that christian ethics are bad. It's the whole 'religion' part of it that's bad


Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 21:48

But DL, doesn't using the word Creator remove it from your beliefs? A Creator (big C too) excludes atheism, doesn't it?

metahuman
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 92064
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-25-2003 22:26

Bleh, I don't want to waste my time with Christian fundys...

_________________________
"That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever." - T.J.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 08-25-2003 22:44

metahuman:

quote:
Bleh, I don't want to waste my time with Christian fundys...



Thats you right I suppose but I doubt many people here would call my a Christian fundamentalist - all I was interested in doing was actually finding out what your point was. It shouldn't be that hard - there must have been one

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 08-25-2003 22:59

Bug's - Only if you equate Creator with God. One does not necessarily imply the other. What if there was a race of aliens who called themselves God just as we call ourselves Human?

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 08-25-2003 23:18

GD: Thats pos. splitting hairs. As with Arthur C Clark's famous saying about technology and magic - any incredibly powerful alien would be indistinguishable from God.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

The Jackal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Dark Side of the Moon
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 23:26

LOL! I am always amazed at how pointing out the obvious and historical Christian roots of this nation always results in me becoming a "Christian fundy." Were I to read some of the remarks of our founding fathers I wonder if you would dismiss them as "Chritian fundy's" too.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 08-25-2003 23:43

metahuman, with that kind of attitude, you're starting to sound like Garbriel when he said, "Anybody who contradicts me will not be answered."

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-26-2003 01:49

Bugimus - we could argue the semantics of a capitol C all day I suppose....
But I don't think it's that important, quite frankly.

Especially at that time, many things were capitalized in the middle of sentences, for seemingly arbitrary purposes. A concept such as 'creator' would be one of those things. Doesn't make that creator "god" or a god. =)

And yeah, meta, you need to get a grasp on what you're trying to get across....and then find a way of actually getting it across - as opposed to insulting everyone who deosn't immediately agree with you.

Jackal - you have to rememeber that there were, however, some very un-christian (you could even say anti-christian) members of those "founding fathers"..

You can't really call it "obvious christian roots".....

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-26-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 08-26-2003 04:50

GD, I can appreciate the idea that an incredibly complex alien could come close to seeming like a god to us. I just think it is unlikely that is what Jefferson had in mind when he referred to the Creator.

DL, do you believe from what you know of Jefferson that he believed in a creator god?

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 08-26-2003 05:00
quote:
GD, I can appreciate the idea that an incredibly complex alien could come close to seeming like a god to us. I just think it is unlikely that is what Jefferson had in mind when he referred to the Creator.

Actually not the point at all, Bug's. All I was saying is that I can see an entire family of beings that could have had the capability of "creating" a race. Some powerful entity out there being a "God" may have nothing to do with why we're here. I understand that you believe this is so. Others might, just might, believe in a non-god creator or creators.

Jefferson, I would imagine meant a Creator God, which by definition, excludes Atheists.

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 08-26-2003 05:08

This whole debackle reminds me of something that my mother says to me from time-to-time: "You should be proud of your heritage."

Can you spot the non-sequitur?

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 08-26-2003 11:45

well .. I'll just plainly ask him

WTF is your point metahuman .. are you just here to spread the gospel in an Asylum that has always thought for itself individualy .. because if you here just to sell your propaganda .. I doubt your going to get many buyers here .. we here at the Asylum enjoy intellectual and stimulating conversation .. but only when it has a point or a direction .. and quite frankly you confuse me .. are you a Christian are you an Atheist .. shit .. who the fuck are you?

oh and yes the links are nice and all but tell us what they are for as well .. in the same post .. we shouldn't have to ask what your point is .. we should know it before we even decide to click on links provided

[peace]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-26-2003 14:12

Bugimus - yes, it would seem so.

But it was wisely left open ended so as not to force a specific view of what 'creator' was being referred to. =)

It also not quite clear what Jefferson's view of 'god' was.

{edit - to borrow a quote from Jefferson from one of metahuman's links -

quote:
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.





[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-26-2003).]

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