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PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-29-2003 19:58

I'm not very good with computers, so I don't know if this is where I would post a question... I have an editorial due for our school's newspaper, and I'd like to do one on differences in religion... But see, the thing is... I do believe in Jesus and God, but I also believe in different things, like Buddha, and other off-color religions... You know, whatever... But I don't understand some things...
Well, the way you're supposed to fully believe in one god (exempting polytheistic religions), but if you believe in the 'wrong' one, then I guess you're SOL... Right? But then if you partially believe in many different ones to make sure you've got the right one, you're still SOL... What do you do?
I have been made fun of many times about these thoughts, and I'm almost positive the criticing will continue. So, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this... PLEASE someone respond.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 08-29-2003 20:42

Yes, basically you're SOL. If you think the religion is correct. If your like me and some others about, the theology is important, not the religion. The religion is all the man made garbage that took a good idea, marketed it, and turned it into a business. That's just my take on it. All Gods/Goddesses are the same entity with different visual representations. Pick the one that suits you best because the theology behind almost every religion is the same. The "figurehead" is just there for focus and comfort. The religion is just there for control.

I don't think I'm making any sense. Hopefully you can decypher my meaning.

Moon Dancer
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: The Lost Grove
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 08-29-2003 23:36

There will always be someone out there to tell you that no matter what religion(s) you've chosen to follow (or if you've chosen the atheistic path), it is the wrong one. That is simply the nature of religion. Each one believes that it has found the correct path to enlightenment, heaven, nirvana, paradise, the summerlands, salvation, eternal life - whatever. That is why the religion exists as it does - it exists as the road signs and traffic laws of the pathway.

The fact of the matter is, we won't know with ultimate certainty until we die. We have faith, we believe that things will go a certain way - but the ultimate answer lies only in the passing of this life. I am personally of the opinion (much like GrythusDraconis) that the higher powers of all religions are really the same entity, just with different faces.


PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 00:40

Thanks you guys. I think all the replies helped me a lot... I still don't know which path to choose, but I have better opinion for my editorial.. If possible, I would like to get a quote from one or both of you to use for my article... Cool? If so, type one in and I'll check back later! Thanks a lot!!!

MichaelAndrewChristopher

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-30-2003 03:35

I won't bother bringing it all up again, for fear of starting more arguments, but if you take a look through some of these threads, you should get some damn good insights on a few things -
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000963.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000976.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000984.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000992.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000897.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000907.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000915.htm
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000895.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000888.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000876.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000879.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000860.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000852.html

And that's only the first 4 pages of this particular forum.



Moon Dancer
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: The Lost Grove
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 05:53

Hey, that was a good idea, DL...

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 08-30-2003 06:00

Feel free to use any quotes that you can find of mine. Feel free to pull anything from those threads that DL was so kind to post. I would like to see them so I can explain some that may have been said in a heated... debate. Besides, the explaination might well be better than the original quote.



Gilbert Nolander seemed to think this was a good quote of mine...

quote:
"I see "God" as the energy of creation with many different faces." - GrythusDraconis


quote:
I challenge my faith every chance I get. I look at things and how they work and how my faith deals with them. If ever I find something that outright goes against my beliefs but I find that it fits into the reality of my life... Guess what? I'll change faiths. You can do that you know. If you never challenge yourself how do you know you're REALLY following your faith? How do you deepen your beliefs and strengthen your faith, not only in what you believe but, in yourself. In many of the arguments here and in real life it degrades to "because the Bible told me so" or "Just because". If you can't answer a challenge to your faith either you aren't versed enough in that faith and need these challenges to deepen that faith, or you're following the wrong faith. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer as long as you take that knowledge and learn from it. That's why I challenge my faith, so I can learn what it is to be a follower of the belief and deepen my respect for the things I believe in. I accept the possiblities of things I don't necessarily believe in when I can't discount them or prove them. I might not choose to believe them outright, but I understand that they are there and can try and find out how they fit into my belief. Faith is not and should not be a static thing. It should change and grow, evolve (as it were) as you learn new things and challenge yourself.

I would be honored if you would use the above quote. I think it describes my basic beliefs exceptionally well.

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-30-2003).]

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-30-2003).]

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 19:25

Hey, Grythus, thanks a lot for the quotes. I'm planning on using the longer one, but not the whole thing. I am wanting to take specific points out of it to use... REPLY and state whether this is okay. When I finish my article, I can send you a piece of it, if you want... Then you can see how I used your quote. Thanks again.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 21:46

Undecided Religion

Discuss with a friend: What is religion and which one is right for me?

Faith and religion remain to cause controversy everywhere in the world. How should one go about choosing one that they feel comfortable with? There are many good and bad aspects of having a distinct religion.

Good: You have something to refer to in hard or down times. You have an idea of why things happen in the world. You can feel ultimate oneness with a group of people.

Bad: Everyone criticizes you against your religion making you feel unwanted and &#8216;wrong&#8217;. Others may look at you differently or not look at you period.

Grythus Draconis comments, &#8220;I challenge my faith every chance I get. I look at things and how they work and how my faith deals with them. If ever I find something that outright goes against my beliefs, but I find that it fits into the reality of my life, I'll change faiths.&#8221;

And I bet you wonder, &#8216;Can I do that? Can I change my faith just like that?&#8217; Well, Draconis continues to say, &#8220;If you never challenge yourself how do you know you're REALLY following your faith?

How do you deepen your beliefs and strengthen your faith, not only in what you believe, but also in yourself. In many of the arguments in real life it degrades to &#8216;because the Bible told me so&#8217; or &#8216;just because&#8217;.

If you can't answer a challenge to your faith either you aren't versed enough in that faith and need these challenges to deepen that faith, or you're following the wrong faith. &#8216;I don't know&#8217; is an acceptable answer as long as you take that knowledge and learn from it.

That's why I challenge my faith, so I can learn what it is to be a follower of the belief and deepen my respect for the things I believe in.&#8221;

I agree with Draconis about challenging your faith. I totally go all out with that idea. But how do other people feel about this thought of challenging what the Bible or Torah says?

Many, I feel would not be too happy to hear of this idea, including my family who happen to be all-out Christians.

But how does that compare to the mind wandering that I experience? Why can I not just fully believe in what is told to me? That would make me an easily fooled person, correct?

But to believe what a book written so long ago, no one remembers who &#8216;actually&#8217; wrote it, to go by what ever it says, and fully take belief in what it tells you; that does not make you gullible? Why?

I mean, you could tell me that one of Jesus&#8217; disciples or whoever wrote the teachings of God and Jesus, but how do we know that for sure? Is it a truly documented fact?

Or what about the Jewish people, they believe in Jesus, but don&#8217;t believe that he was the, how can I say, &#8216;Messiah&#8217;.

Buddhists have a battle going on whether Buddha was a savior or if he was just a &#8216;preacher&#8217;.

The Greeks believed in multiple gods and goddesses to explain things in nature in which they didn&#8217;t understand why it happened, such as thunder and why plants grew.

The Greeks and Romans thought of their own gods and goddesses to create a religion. Who is to say that anyone of us cannot do that too?

What if I spent a day just sitting there and thinking up things to explain why things went on or happened? Do you think I could get it &#8216;spread around town&#8217; until it became something that enough people believed to cause them and others to find it true just as it is with the Bible?

&#8216;I accept the possibilities of things I don't necessarily believe in when I can't discount them or prove them. I might not choose to believe them outright, but I understand that they are there and can try and find out how they fit into my belief.

Faith is not and should not be a static thing. It should change and grow, evolve (as it were) as you learn new things and challenge yourself,&#8217; Draconis tells me.

If you too, have a question about your faith or any faith, ask someone about it or discuss thoughts and ideas with someone else who you know is creating the same questions.

Don&#8217;t let anyone tell you that you believe something that is not true. What is true depends on what you feel.

Believe what you want to believe; it is America, the &#8216;land of the free&#8217;.



MichaelAndrewChristopher

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 09-03-2003 14:40

nice

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-04-2003 03:42

Thanks. I TRY to work hard for my class. I want to go to college for Journalism.. Later, and 'Thanks Again!' For all of the people out there that either gave me inspiration, information, or just sat there and watched me type. You guys are all lovely...

MichaelAndrewChristopher

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 09-04-2003 05:53

nicely done. you might do some more reading in those threads tho, it may be interesting to you that some of us "all-out christians" DO actually challenge our faith in many respects

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-04-2003 08:52

I think any religion worth following should be able to withstand a thorough bout with critical thinking. By all means, question your faith but do not shy from the answers. Some of them will be unpleasant, and so you have to be prepared to go with the ones that ring true regardless of how you *feel* about them.

Good work on your paper too

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 09-04-2003 15:52

Oh! Very much so, Fig. A good point to be made.

Nods to Bugs. - Ditto

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-05-2003 02:57

Okay. Well, see, my family doesn't exactly like me as it is. I am bisexual, which kind of throws out the idea of being a Christian. Quite a bit of my family doesn't speak to me anymore because of the way I choose to be. I am not a preppy person, nor do I really care what people think about what I wear. (Whether they like it or not...) I dress and act the way I feel is comfortable and they don't like it.
Thanks for the comments about my story. It has been turned in to my teacher and she is sending or has sent it off to the newspaper company to be judged (and hopefully chosen) to be published in their next paper. Maybe one day I'll be able to help one of you with something important to you also.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-05-2003 08:11
quote:
I do believe in Jesus and God, but I also believe in different things, like Buddha, and other off-color religions... You know, whatever... But I don't understand some things...

What exactly do you believe about Jesus and God? And how does it relate to what you believe about Buddhism? And care to name a few of the "off-color" religions? I'm curious to know if you don't mind getting into it a bit.

. . : slicePuzzle

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-06-2003 14:55

I mean, I believe in them, (Jesus and God), but I don't necessarily believe everything about them. I think... And off-color religions, Islam, Chinese beliefs, basically everything that I don't know much about... I didn't research on them much.


MichaelAndrewChristopher

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 09-08-2003 17:11

I recommend a book by Grizzlybear Lake called Native Healer
if you are perhaps interesting in learning more of the religion
of Native American's. I really enjoyed it and would recommend it to anyone.

Or if you are more interested in learning about a variety of different religions,
I suggest you check out these places.
-Sacred Texts-
-Virtual Religion-


.quotes.

Moon Dancer
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: The Lost Grove
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 09-08-2003 17:51

Another great resource for many of the world's religions is Belief.Net They offer a lot of information in a very objective manner.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 09-08-2003 18:26

Pspk

I am just curious, since you posted your bisexual, maybe you won't have a problem with me asking you when & how did you knew you were? I want to understand the attraction to both genders. Is is right to say that its a preference and you were not born that way? Or what?
Seems that all major religions are pretty much against this kind of lifestyle. I know there is more open tolerance for homosexuality with some sects, but bisexuality I think would be a harder lifestyle to swallow. I would hope that there is someway you could be accepted as a person first and your family not see your lifestyle as all of who you are. I myself think it is morally wrong to live this way, but I would want to be compassionate and leave an open line of communication if someone close to me choose to live as you do.

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 09-08-2003 21:44

I would think to understand the attraction to both sexes which is exibited by some people, it would be necessary to first understand that we are all individuals on our own quests for understanding what is true to us as an individual. And to explain something like this, I would imagine, would be like trying to explain why one prefers chocalate ice-cream over strawberry.

Head POundING. HeaRt PumPing....TIred, YeS..SLEepY. GoTTaaa Go.

Oh yea, I have a new story, if you feel like reading. It will take about 1 minute to read.

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 09-08-2003 22:44
quote:
I mean, I believe in them, (Jesus and God), but I don't necessarily believe everything about them. I think...



ok, that didn't really answer the question

chris


KAIROSinteractive

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-12-2003 03:05

Okay, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question dude...
Well, Jade, about the bisexual thing. I have been attracted to the same sex for quite some time now... About six years. It started when I was rather young. I had always taken a liking more towards others of the same sex. I had fooled around with them, and ultimately denied it when I had been asked about it. I continued to do so until about a year ago when I just stood up in public one day and announced that I was bisexual.
I have had a lot of negative response to this, which really doesn't bother me. I just take what they say and move on. It's not like I haven't heard it all before. It's a natural thing to be attracted to the same sex at one time or another, whether or not you decide yourself falling for them.
Some people have had dreams or fantasies about being with other men or other women, and that it PERFECTLY NORMAL. It does not mean that they are gay (lesbian, bisexual, etc.)! It is your mind and body adjusting to it's surroundings.
Well, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone in any way at all, and I sincerely apologize. But my say is that if you don't like it, you don't have to do it, and I don't expect you to...So fuck off. Peace.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 09-12-2003 18:12

Psypk

I am not offended and didn't want to provoke any hostility or anger. Evidently you still have a hard time adjusting to your choosen lifestyle.
I know there is lots of truth to what you posted in an attraction to persons of the same gender. Persons could have a very deep close friendship relationship with a person of the same gender and wonder about it, which I think happens all the time. But I think our judgement gets clouded with influences or circumstances and lines are crossed. Afterwards its hard to go back. If you chose to let yourself be erotically stimulated by both genders your out of control or it controls you. To me it seems that for you to develop a close loving intimate relationship with someone would be hard if you choose to stay bisexual. I know persons who have fell into lesbian, homosexual or bisexual encounters b-4 and do not practice those lifestyles. It was a phase or experience they went thur or a one lost nite due to alcohol or drugs. Sometimes because of disillusionment with a heterosexual relationship, persons who were hurt choose another sexual lifestyle too. They no longer trust in a hetrosexual relationship.

In faith matters, if you believe in God, believe nothing you do could turn God away from you. God is present in all, no matter what sexual preferance. God loves the person, just not the wrong act of a person. So to shy away from faith or religion because you feel unacceptable is misguided. All the more reason to continue to develop a corespondence with God.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 09-12-2003).]

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-13-2003 23:02

Actually, no I don't have trouble with my selected lifestyle. I was just telling you what I say to people that have a problem with my choosing bisexuality over heterosexuality. Well, to put it straight, I never really had a close relationship with any of my friends to where I felt something other for them. I still do not have sexual feelings for any of my friends. Just people I have met and was told that they were bisexual also. I actually just met this one person last week.

The one that I love is the same sex as I am and we were mortal enemies for quite some time before we hooked up. They had heard that I was bisexual and wanted to get to know me. The slander and libel was spread over a vast region of people before that time. So I rarely ever feel an attraction to one unless I first hear of their preferencies of being homosexual or bisexual.

So I'm sorry if you thought I was telling you to fuck off. It's just something that I say to everyone that has a problem with me. Please respond in my other topic folder about Undecided Sexuality Questions in case someone decides to say something else to me about religion... Thank you.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 09-19-2003 03:21

A lot of the time I'm so caught up in the details of day to day existence that I just don't have the time or energy to devote to the spiritual side of life that I'd like to. Other times, it seems that it's all I can do to just give this temporal side of life a sideways glance. All I can really think about is _ "What am I doing that's really and truly worthwhile?" _ ... Stop the world; I want to get off!

I once spent a few days in a "real" asylum. Lately, I find myself thinking about that time. And the people I met while I was there. "Real" life isn't really that much different, really.

A lot of people are priviledged to choose the lifestyle they want to live. But for most (zombies) their lives are chosen and mapped out by circumstances or, other, more powerful people; who in turn are controlled by other circumstances or, other people.
Other lives cross paths with these lives and, things get complicated and, all crossed up, and things start to misfire and short out and, new lives come into being, while other lives are snuffed out or, simply cease to exist for no reason other than the body is worn out and can no longer function; and a fire burns in every soul, that can only be quenched by another soul or by death. And some people say that everything blows up in the end anyway so, _ what is it worth?




Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 09-30-2003 07:28

The Holy Trinity is the only one true God, the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Basic communication theory was not started by man, it was in existance before all eternity in the Trinity...

Let me take you back to your most basic networking class if I will





Basic communication theory states that there is a source, a transmitter, a filter and a reciever. There is also a feedback loop.

The way the Holy Trinity is setup in Orthodox Christianity is in just this way...

The Father is the source,
The Son is the transmitter,
The Holy Spirit is the filter, the filter can also be theology, which if it is wrong the message at the end will be wrong.
and We (mankind) are the recievers.
The feedback loop is The one true Church that Christ Started.

For more information on Orthodox Christianity visit http://www.goarch.org/

josh
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 10-02-2003 12:13

eh, telephones are better.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-02-2003 17:30

Maskkkk,

Interesting to say the least. Are you saying the Holy Spirit can be substituted for theology? Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit, if it is theology, can be wrong? If you are saying He can be wrong then doesn't that mean God is also wrong? I just need some clarification on putting the Holy Spirit on the same level as theology.

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-02-2003 18:13

If I'm understanding him correctly The Holy Spirit can be enhanced or interupted by theology... depending on whether or not the theology is correct or not. If the theology is wrong, or tainted, then the religion based on that is incorrect or tainted. Our filter is dirty, hence the church built on that filter is dirty. The Holy Spirit is a pure filter. The fisrt church based on that pure filter is the only true religion. At least that's what the diagram reads like.

The problem I see today is that the Church is pushing the theology. They are filtering the pure filter. It's too much BS (dirt) in the mix. Doesn't that make the feedback loop... feed itself? An endless cycle where the message can't be verified against the source because the loop never makes it back to the source?

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-02-2003 22:08

I have a serious problem with putting the "church" between us and the Father. That role is reserved *only* for the Son. He is the *only* mediator between us and the Father.

I believe the Holy Spirit is pure but it is how much we are able to open up to His words that determines how well we understand His directions. So I would say that the problems occur with our imperfect abilities to handle the perfect will of God. But that is why the Holy Spirit is now with us, so that we don't have to do it alone. We have access to the "source".

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-02-2003 22:25

That is a far cleaner cycle. We are making the theology. Whether we understand it fully or not. So it moves thus: The Father to the Son to us. To the Spirit to the Father. Rinse/Repeat. That agrees with my philosophy rather well I would use different terms but it shows what I mean when I say religion is the issue that causes trouble. The theology causes problems as well but it is a growing and changing entity directly related to our knowledge. From my experience, religions seem to resist change and growth.

Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 10-03-2003 19:01

Ah wow that sparked some good discussion....

Ok well given that my priest told me about this, and since he is the one who told me this I will go back and find out what he ment by this on Monday, and reply later in the week.

Bugimus I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit can be wrong, because He cannot be wrong.
Error is a Human thing.

See you next week!

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-03-2003 20:38

Cool. Thanks, Maskkkk.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-03-2003 20:52

Bugs posted.

I have a serious problem with putting the "church" between us and the Father. That role is reserved *only* for the Son. He is the *only* mediator between us and the Father.

What about in scripture when you read that the "church is the body of christ". Remember what Jesus told Paul on the way to Damsacus, "Saul, Saul, why do you perscute me, meaning he was killing thousands of christians, who were the body of believers, the early church who mystically is Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit is all one in the same, if you believe in the trinity. So there is no mediator. Dealing directly with the church is getting to Christ person to person. Per scripture the Church is also the "pillar and foundation of truth" meaing in truth because Jesus is the only truth. Now if you consider that the church is either a physical buiding, people, messenger, institution then, I can see your point. My church says we are all one. All Christ and us together in union like a bride and groom. Scripture refers to the chruch as the bride of christ. What happens when a groom takes a bride? They become one. When you really think about the theology of this, its such a beautiful revelation to me.
Also in scripture it states that where people are gathered together and disagree on scripture meaning, they are to consult with the church, who is the final authority of truth. What church in your opinion would this be?


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-03-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-03-2003 22:34

Jade,

I agree 100% that the church is comprised of believers in Christ and all believers are called His body. The church is *not* the building for that is only the place where the "body" meets.

You are saying that there is no mediator but I have to disagree. Christ is our conduit to the father just as Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time."

The church is NOT Christ in every respect. I believe it is a mistake to say that Christ and the Church are one and the same. It is true that we are His body but that is an illustration of our role and not elevating the church (all believers) to godhood. In fact, I would consider it blasphemous to say that we are equal to God.

Paul does indeed also say in 1 Timothy 3:14-15, "Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." I agree with this. We, that is the church which is comprised of all believers in Christ, are the pillare and foundation of the truth. Why? Because we have accepted His grace and have been baptized into Him and have therefore been indwelt with the Holy Spirit Himself who guides each and every one of us according to God's will.

Do you agree with any of that?

. . : slicePuzzle

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-04-2003 01:02
quote:
So there is no mediator.



i always thought the catholic church considered priests the mediators? hearing confession on your behalf, etc.?

chris


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jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-04-2003 06:21

One Mediator? Yes, you are correct Bugs.

I would never intentionally blaspheme. I don't think what I posted implies that. I would never presume to put myself in the place of God as to think I am on Gods level.

I meant in the respect to the relationship between Christ to the Church, that there is no mediator. In the offering of a mass, Christ is mediating to the father. In respect to the salvation of mankind the mediator can only be Christ Jesus.
Per Paul's letters, In, " For there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men, the man is Christ Jesus" I interpret this as only Jesus can redeem you. And thur the Churchs mystical life, this is possible or why else would Christ tell Peter to establish a church and to honor his sacrifice for mankind in his memory.

Why do you think Christ needed a mediator to come to us in the person of the Virgin Mary? Christ could of popped up human and divine in the sky. Also in scripture isn't there many mediators, like Moses, Abraham, Noah, Apostles who cured in his name and great prophets like John the baptist and evangelizers like Paul. Why does God use humans in biblical history to do his will? When we say mediators, couldn't we say they were used in the planning and realizing of God's divine plan? Why do you need a pastor or other church members to pray for you? Why do they need to mediate between you and Jesus? Do you think their prayers to Jesus will help make you well? Can they interceed on your behalf? Would you regard them as mediators if they offer themselves up in sacrifice for you? Like bargin with God to achieve a good outcome. Do you think you can just have a one on one personal relationship with Christ by staying home without belonging to a family of believers? I don't think this is what Jesus or Paul intended. To me the church is a ongoing pilgrimage toward heaven which starts on earth. I believe the church is the greatest master plan of God thru which would not have been made possible but by the water and blood which gushed forth from the side wound of Christ symbolizing the waters of baptism and the reedeming blood of Jesus. This church is the great mystery of God in that St Paul refers to as "the bride of Christ" in its experience of love, conjunal love, paternal and maternal love, fraternal love, the love of community of persons and generations. All a family of believers which has taken stages of formation in human history, keeping with God the fathers plan. The church develops a building, the house of God in which his family dwells, the household of the Spirit. This church is a communion of believers who are in communion with each other thur the power of the Holy Trinity by the death and resurrection of Christ the second person. I believe Christ formed his first family in his twelve apostles that form twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem in the book of revelation and on the foundation of the rock of Peters faith to tend the sheep of the flock in the book of John and praying specifically for him that Peters faith may not fail and entrust him with the task of strenghening the brethren in Luke and down thur all the successors of Peter (first 50 popes where maryters of the faith also) until today. You can see the structure of the church has taken shape thur the ages and will remain so until the kingdom on earth is fully achieved.

Fig

Priest gather Gods family together as a brotherhood of a living unity, and leads it through Christ and in the Spirit of God the Father. In Christ Jesus, the human family is called to be the family of God. Doesn't a domestic family need a father? So too the domestic church family needs a father to father the earthly church. Fatherhood is so important to the family for so many reasons, For protection, for love, for support, for guidance,etc.
Just as the church should have and needs fatherhood. As christ gave the apostles the power to forgive and heal, so too thur the sacrament of holy orders does Christ give a royal priesthood power to forgive and heal hearts. Most important the priest in the holy sacrifice of the mass acts in "persona christi" as he memorializes the sacrifice of Christ body/blood for our salvation. In the meaning of our Sunday masses, we as a family of believers meet to be communal. To pray for each other in the greatest form of prayer, a mass. We go thur the trials of life all 6 days of the week. We suffer, we toil, we are ill, we are accused, we go thru hard trials with family and work. Fears, rejection, lonliness, sadness, traumas. All the bad that happens to us, we come together and with the help of the angels and saints offer up all this to God thur the son in remembering the last supper. We do no crucify Jesus over again every day at masses. We continue to sin and go against God and when the priest at mass is saying, " This is my body which is given up for you, take it, eat it and do this in memory of me. This is by blood which will be given up for you, take it, drink it and do this in memory of me, This will be shed for you so that your sins may be forgiven" Christ is still offering up himself to the father for our sake today and tomorrow and forever as long as we are on this earth. The priest is not God or Jesus in Mass, but will offer in the name of Jesus. Here Jesus is mediating for us to the father. Christ is present at all masses in the form of a host which is consecrated to become the body, blood, soul and divinty of Christ, thur the power of transubstranciation. Jesus is, constantly pleading on our behalf to God his father in heaven. We believe if we could tap into the supernatural, we could see Jesus Christ offering himself to his father for our pains and our sufferings. We are also saying, I know living is a struggle, but I will endure it with your help and others help. We don't stay in the perpetual 6666666 and not offer & give our hearts minds and souls on the 7th in thanksgiving for his passion & death for our salvation. Thats why for catholics to miss mass is so serious. If we do not attend Mass on the holy day, we must go to confession and be truly sorry for not becoming one with Christ in thanksgiving. Its a commitment for some and an act of love for others depending our their journey in faith. Priest are not holier that the rest or closer to god or better than all, just that they have chosen a marriage to Jesus christ as spouse instead of taking a real life spouse. They are special to us and we treat them with honor because they have chosen to be high priest forever until their death for our sake. They are not forced to be celibate, for most its is a commited for love of God and Gods church here on earth.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-04-2003).]

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-04-2003 08:23

jade, i agree that there are definite leadership roles that priests/pastors undertake for a congregation. however, i find the idea of needing someone else to intercede for us or forgive us completely against scripture. i'm forgiven because i've accepted christ as my personal savior and because i ask forgiveness for my sins. i'm saved and forgiven by grace alone, not on the actions of others.

i've found personally that the catholic church seems to instill more a sense of obligation when it comes to attending mass rather than one of being "truly sorry" as you mention, but i won't get into that as you already know we've got some differing issues on the catholic church and its viewpoints.


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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-04-2003 10:18

Jade, I really didn't mean to imply that you were blaspheming. I just wanted to point out that if anyone did equate the church with God that would be the result. I understand you were not doing that at all.

You clarified your point with:

quote:
I meant in the respect to the relationship between Christ to the Church, that there is no mediator.

Ok, I totally agree that there is no mediator between the church and Christ. We can go directly to Christ and because of what He did for us, we can therefore access the Father in Christ's name.

Who is the church? It is you, me, Fig, and every other baptized believer in Jesus Christ, yes? You see this all comes back to our different view of what the church is. I know that you believe the church is seated in Rome and is much more than just the sum of every believer. I understand your position pretty well and I think you understand mine. I have had many discussionw with some rather knowledgeable Roman Catholics and have learned a great deal about the structure and theology of your church.

The fact of the matter is I view Roman Catholics as wayward brothers and sisters and I know that most Roman Catholics feel the same about Christians like me and Fig.


That being said, it is instructive sometimes to explain our differences. I have understood that your priests are considered mediators between you and God. In order to receive grace, you must get it from them. Is that not your understanding? I know that the grace comes from God, but it is administered through the priesthood, yes? I also attended a debate between a Roman Catholic theologian and a protestant minister. It was very interesting to say the least because it was about this very topic of the priesthood. The Roman Catholic guy ended his arguments by pointing out that the RC priesthood is the New Covenant's version of the Old Covenant priests. In the OT, the people did have to go through priests to access God.

So in answer to your question about Moses, Noah, etc being mediators, I would tend to agree that they were just that because that was how God structured the Old Covenant. BUT when you get to the New Testament, we have a very different set up. Christ destroyed the barrier between us and God that made it necessary to go through mediators. Now we go straight to Christ. I feel confident I can make a strong case for that view from the New Testament writings.

In regards to me thinking I need other Christians or pastors to mediate for me. I do not think that is required. If you mean intercede on my behalf, then that is a very good thing. They do not act as a "go between" for me but they can certainly petition God for help. That is very scriptural and I have no problem with that at all. I tend to take the view that God will do what He wants and our prayers are really more for our benefit than anything else. I believe that as long as our requests match His will, then we will be answered. But that is really just my view, I am less able to back that one up so I don't want to be dogmatic about it.

Do I think I can avoid going to church and be a good Christian? No I do not. Paul instructs us to not forsake the fellowship and I take that admonition very seriously. One of the most central concepts of Xianity is that we touch others with the love of God. You simply cannot do that by avoiding others. So we probably agree on that one.

About your reply to Fig about the church needing leadership, I believe that too. I think we are to model our church leadership after the churches in the New Testament. You will not find a pope, bishops, nor priests in these churches. You will find churches in every city seeing each other as autonomous to one another and peers in a sense. Each of these churches were led by members of upstanding reputations and ethics within the community and they were known as elders or pastors. There was no bishop overseeing a group of local churches and there was no central authority other than the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God. This is the way the church is to be and not what the Roman Catholic church has become over centuries of mutation. I am telling this to you straight and it is not meant in a bad way. This is my opinion and position which I base on my reading of the early history of the church primarily from the New Testament and the writings of the early apostolic fathers.

. . : slicePuzzle

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