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PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-29-2003 19:58

I'm not very good with computers, so I don't know if this is where I would post a question... I have an editorial due for our school's newspaper, and I'd like to do one on differences in religion... But see, the thing is... I do believe in Jesus and God, but I also believe in different things, like Buddha, and other off-color religions... You know, whatever... But I don't understand some things...
Well, the way you're supposed to fully believe in one god (exempting polytheistic religions), but if you believe in the 'wrong' one, then I guess you're SOL... Right? But then if you partially believe in many different ones to make sure you've got the right one, you're still SOL... What do you do?
I have been made fun of many times about these thoughts, and I'm almost positive the criticing will continue. So, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this... PLEASE someone respond.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 08-29-2003 20:42

Yes, basically you're SOL. If you think the religion is correct. If your like me and some others about, the theology is important, not the religion. The religion is all the man made garbage that took a good idea, marketed it, and turned it into a business. That's just my take on it. All Gods/Goddesses are the same entity with different visual representations. Pick the one that suits you best because the theology behind almost every religion is the same. The "figurehead" is just there for focus and comfort. The religion is just there for control.

I don't think I'm making any sense. Hopefully you can decypher my meaning.

Moon Dancer
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: The Lost Grove
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 08-29-2003 23:36

There will always be someone out there to tell you that no matter what religion(s) you've chosen to follow (or if you've chosen the atheistic path), it is the wrong one. That is simply the nature of religion. Each one believes that it has found the correct path to enlightenment, heaven, nirvana, paradise, the summerlands, salvation, eternal life - whatever. That is why the religion exists as it does - it exists as the road signs and traffic laws of the pathway.

The fact of the matter is, we won't know with ultimate certainty until we die. We have faith, we believe that things will go a certain way - but the ultimate answer lies only in the passing of this life. I am personally of the opinion (much like GrythusDraconis) that the higher powers of all religions are really the same entity, just with different faces.


PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 00:40

Thanks you guys. I think all the replies helped me a lot... I still don't know which path to choose, but I have better opinion for my editorial.. If possible, I would like to get a quote from one or both of you to use for my article... Cool? If so, type one in and I'll check back later! Thanks a lot!!!

MichaelAndrewChristopher

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-30-2003 03:35

I won't bother bringing it all up again, for fear of starting more arguments, but if you take a look through some of these threads, you should get some damn good insights on a few things -
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000963.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000976.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000984.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000992.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000897.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000907.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000915.htm
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000895.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000888.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000876.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000879.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000860.html
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000852.html

And that's only the first 4 pages of this particular forum.



Moon Dancer
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: The Lost Grove
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 05:53

Hey, that was a good idea, DL...

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 08-30-2003 06:00

Feel free to use any quotes that you can find of mine. Feel free to pull anything from those threads that DL was so kind to post. I would like to see them so I can explain some that may have been said in a heated... debate. Besides, the explaination might well be better than the original quote.



Gilbert Nolander seemed to think this was a good quote of mine...

quote:
"I see "God" as the energy of creation with many different faces." - GrythusDraconis


quote:
I challenge my faith every chance I get. I look at things and how they work and how my faith deals with them. If ever I find something that outright goes against my beliefs but I find that it fits into the reality of my life... Guess what? I'll change faiths. You can do that you know. If you never challenge yourself how do you know you're REALLY following your faith? How do you deepen your beliefs and strengthen your faith, not only in what you believe but, in yourself. In many of the arguments here and in real life it degrades to "because the Bible told me so" or "Just because". If you can't answer a challenge to your faith either you aren't versed enough in that faith and need these challenges to deepen that faith, or you're following the wrong faith. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer as long as you take that knowledge and learn from it. That's why I challenge my faith, so I can learn what it is to be a follower of the belief and deepen my respect for the things I believe in. I accept the possiblities of things I don't necessarily believe in when I can't discount them or prove them. I might not choose to believe them outright, but I understand that they are there and can try and find out how they fit into my belief. Faith is not and should not be a static thing. It should change and grow, evolve (as it were) as you learn new things and challenge yourself.

I would be honored if you would use the above quote. I think it describes my basic beliefs exceptionally well.

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-30-2003).]

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-30-2003).]

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 19:25

Hey, Grythus, thanks a lot for the quotes. I'm planning on using the longer one, but not the whole thing. I am wanting to take specific points out of it to use... REPLY and state whether this is okay. When I finish my article, I can send you a piece of it, if you want... Then you can see how I used your quote. Thanks again.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 08-30-2003 21:46

Undecided Religion

Discuss with a friend: What is religion and which one is right for me?

Faith and religion remain to cause controversy everywhere in the world. How should one go about choosing one that they feel comfortable with? There are many good and bad aspects of having a distinct religion.

Good: You have something to refer to in hard or down times. You have an idea of why things happen in the world. You can feel ultimate oneness with a group of people.

Bad: Everyone criticizes you against your religion making you feel unwanted and &#8216;wrong&#8217;. Others may look at you differently or not look at you period.

Grythus Draconis comments, &#8220;I challenge my faith every chance I get. I look at things and how they work and how my faith deals with them. If ever I find something that outright goes against my beliefs, but I find that it fits into the reality of my life, I'll change faiths.&#8221;

And I bet you wonder, &#8216;Can I do that? Can I change my faith just like that?&#8217; Well, Draconis continues to say, &#8220;If you never challenge yourself how do you know you're REALLY following your faith?

How do you deepen your beliefs and strengthen your faith, not only in what you believe, but also in yourself. In many of the arguments in real life it degrades to &#8216;because the Bible told me so&#8217; or &#8216;just because&#8217;.

If you can't answer a challenge to your faith either you aren't versed enough in that faith and need these challenges to deepen that faith, or you're following the wrong faith. &#8216;I don't know&#8217; is an acceptable answer as long as you take that knowledge and learn from it.

That's why I challenge my faith, so I can learn what it is to be a follower of the belief and deepen my respect for the things I believe in.&#8221;

I agree with Draconis about challenging your faith. I totally go all out with that idea. But how do other people feel about this thought of challenging what the Bible or Torah says?

Many, I feel would not be too happy to hear of this idea, including my family who happen to be all-out Christians.

But how does that compare to the mind wandering that I experience? Why can I not just fully believe in what is told to me? That would make me an easily fooled person, correct?

But to believe what a book written so long ago, no one remembers who &#8216;actually&#8217; wrote it, to go by what ever it says, and fully take belief in what it tells you; that does not make you gullible? Why?

I mean, you could tell me that one of Jesus&#8217; disciples or whoever wrote the teachings of God and Jesus, but how do we know that for sure? Is it a truly documented fact?

Or what about the Jewish people, they believe in Jesus, but don&#8217;t believe that he was the, how can I say, &#8216;Messiah&#8217;.

Buddhists have a battle going on whether Buddha was a savior or if he was just a &#8216;preacher&#8217;.

The Greeks believed in multiple gods and goddesses to explain things in nature in which they didn&#8217;t understand why it happened, such as thunder and why plants grew.

The Greeks and Romans thought of their own gods and goddesses to create a religion. Who is to say that anyone of us cannot do that too?

What if I spent a day just sitting there and thinking up things to explain why things went on or happened? Do you think I could get it &#8216;spread around town&#8217; until it became something that enough people believed to cause them and others to find it true just as it is with the Bible?

&#8216;I accept the possibilities of things I don't necessarily believe in when I can't discount them or prove them. I might not choose to believe them outright, but I understand that they are there and can try and find out how they fit into my belief.

Faith is not and should not be a static thing. It should change and grow, evolve (as it were) as you learn new things and challenge yourself,&#8217; Draconis tells me.

If you too, have a question about your faith or any faith, ask someone about it or discuss thoughts and ideas with someone else who you know is creating the same questions.

Don&#8217;t let anyone tell you that you believe something that is not true. What is true depends on what you feel.

Believe what you want to believe; it is America, the &#8216;land of the free&#8217;.



MichaelAndrewChristopher

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 09-03-2003 14:40

nice

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-04-2003 03:42

Thanks. I TRY to work hard for my class. I want to go to college for Journalism.. Later, and 'Thanks Again!' For all of the people out there that either gave me inspiration, information, or just sat there and watched me type. You guys are all lovely...

MichaelAndrewChristopher

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 09-04-2003 05:53

nicely done. you might do some more reading in those threads tho, it may be interesting to you that some of us "all-out christians" DO actually challenge our faith in many respects

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-04-2003 08:52

I think any religion worth following should be able to withstand a thorough bout with critical thinking. By all means, question your faith but do not shy from the answers. Some of them will be unpleasant, and so you have to be prepared to go with the ones that ring true regardless of how you *feel* about them.

Good work on your paper too

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 09-04-2003 15:52

Oh! Very much so, Fig. A good point to be made.

Nods to Bugs. - Ditto

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-05-2003 02:57

Okay. Well, see, my family doesn't exactly like me as it is. I am bisexual, which kind of throws out the idea of being a Christian. Quite a bit of my family doesn't speak to me anymore because of the way I choose to be. I am not a preppy person, nor do I really care what people think about what I wear. (Whether they like it or not...) I dress and act the way I feel is comfortable and they don't like it.
Thanks for the comments about my story. It has been turned in to my teacher and she is sending or has sent it off to the newspaper company to be judged (and hopefully chosen) to be published in their next paper. Maybe one day I'll be able to help one of you with something important to you also.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-05-2003 08:11
quote:
I do believe in Jesus and God, but I also believe in different things, like Buddha, and other off-color religions... You know, whatever... But I don't understand some things...

What exactly do you believe about Jesus and God? And how does it relate to what you believe about Buddhism? And care to name a few of the "off-color" religions? I'm curious to know if you don't mind getting into it a bit.

. . : slicePuzzle

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-06-2003 14:55

I mean, I believe in them, (Jesus and God), but I don't necessarily believe everything about them. I think... And off-color religions, Islam, Chinese beliefs, basically everything that I don't know much about... I didn't research on them much.


MichaelAndrewChristopher

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 09-08-2003 17:11

I recommend a book by Grizzlybear Lake called Native Healer
if you are perhaps interesting in learning more of the religion
of Native American's. I really enjoyed it and would recommend it to anyone.

Or if you are more interested in learning about a variety of different religions,
I suggest you check out these places.
-Sacred Texts-
-Virtual Religion-


.quotes.

Moon Dancer
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: The Lost Grove
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 09-08-2003 17:51

Another great resource for many of the world's religions is Belief.Net They offer a lot of information in a very objective manner.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 09-08-2003 18:26

Pspk

I am just curious, since you posted your bisexual, maybe you won't have a problem with me asking you when & how did you knew you were? I want to understand the attraction to both genders. Is is right to say that its a preference and you were not born that way? Or what?
Seems that all major religions are pretty much against this kind of lifestyle. I know there is more open tolerance for homosexuality with some sects, but bisexuality I think would be a harder lifestyle to swallow. I would hope that there is someway you could be accepted as a person first and your family not see your lifestyle as all of who you are. I myself think it is morally wrong to live this way, but I would want to be compassionate and leave an open line of communication if someone close to me choose to live as you do.

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 09-08-2003 21:44

I would think to understand the attraction to both sexes which is exibited by some people, it would be necessary to first understand that we are all individuals on our own quests for understanding what is true to us as an individual. And to explain something like this, I would imagine, would be like trying to explain why one prefers chocalate ice-cream over strawberry.

Head POundING. HeaRt PumPing....TIred, YeS..SLEepY. GoTTaaa Go.

Oh yea, I have a new story, if you feel like reading. It will take about 1 minute to read.

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 09-08-2003 22:44
quote:
I mean, I believe in them, (Jesus and God), but I don't necessarily believe everything about them. I think...



ok, that didn't really answer the question

chris


KAIROSinteractive

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-12-2003 03:05

Okay, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question dude...
Well, Jade, about the bisexual thing. I have been attracted to the same sex for quite some time now... About six years. It started when I was rather young. I had always taken a liking more towards others of the same sex. I had fooled around with them, and ultimately denied it when I had been asked about it. I continued to do so until about a year ago when I just stood up in public one day and announced that I was bisexual.
I have had a lot of negative response to this, which really doesn't bother me. I just take what they say and move on. It's not like I haven't heard it all before. It's a natural thing to be attracted to the same sex at one time or another, whether or not you decide yourself falling for them.
Some people have had dreams or fantasies about being with other men or other women, and that it PERFECTLY NORMAL. It does not mean that they are gay (lesbian, bisexual, etc.)! It is your mind and body adjusting to it's surroundings.
Well, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone in any way at all, and I sincerely apologize. But my say is that if you don't like it, you don't have to do it, and I don't expect you to...So fuck off. Peace.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 09-12-2003 18:12

Psypk

I am not offended and didn't want to provoke any hostility or anger. Evidently you still have a hard time adjusting to your choosen lifestyle.
I know there is lots of truth to what you posted in an attraction to persons of the same gender. Persons could have a very deep close friendship relationship with a person of the same gender and wonder about it, which I think happens all the time. But I think our judgement gets clouded with influences or circumstances and lines are crossed. Afterwards its hard to go back. If you chose to let yourself be erotically stimulated by both genders your out of control or it controls you. To me it seems that for you to develop a close loving intimate relationship with someone would be hard if you choose to stay bisexual. I know persons who have fell into lesbian, homosexual or bisexual encounters b-4 and do not practice those lifestyles. It was a phase or experience they went thur or a one lost nite due to alcohol or drugs. Sometimes because of disillusionment with a heterosexual relationship, persons who were hurt choose another sexual lifestyle too. They no longer trust in a hetrosexual relationship.

In faith matters, if you believe in God, believe nothing you do could turn God away from you. God is present in all, no matter what sexual preferance. God loves the person, just not the wrong act of a person. So to shy away from faith or religion because you feel unacceptable is misguided. All the more reason to continue to develop a corespondence with God.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 09-12-2003).]

PsychopathikPunk
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Cairo, GA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 09-13-2003 23:02

Actually, no I don't have trouble with my selected lifestyle. I was just telling you what I say to people that have a problem with my choosing bisexuality over heterosexuality. Well, to put it straight, I never really had a close relationship with any of my friends to where I felt something other for them. I still do not have sexual feelings for any of my friends. Just people I have met and was told that they were bisexual also. I actually just met this one person last week.

The one that I love is the same sex as I am and we were mortal enemies for quite some time before we hooked up. They had heard that I was bisexual and wanted to get to know me. The slander and libel was spread over a vast region of people before that time. So I rarely ever feel an attraction to one unless I first hear of their preferencies of being homosexual or bisexual.

So I'm sorry if you thought I was telling you to fuck off. It's just something that I say to everyone that has a problem with me. Please respond in my other topic folder about Undecided Sexuality Questions in case someone decides to say something else to me about religion... Thank you.

MichaelAndrewChristopher

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 09-19-2003 03:21

A lot of the time I'm so caught up in the details of day to day existence that I just don't have the time or energy to devote to the spiritual side of life that I'd like to. Other times, it seems that it's all I can do to just give this temporal side of life a sideways glance. All I can really think about is _ "What am I doing that's really and truly worthwhile?" _ ... Stop the world; I want to get off!

I once spent a few days in a "real" asylum. Lately, I find myself thinking about that time. And the people I met while I was there. "Real" life isn't really that much different, really.

A lot of people are priviledged to choose the lifestyle they want to live. But for most (zombies) their lives are chosen and mapped out by circumstances or, other, more powerful people; who in turn are controlled by other circumstances or, other people.
Other lives cross paths with these lives and, things get complicated and, all crossed up, and things start to misfire and short out and, new lives come into being, while other lives are snuffed out or, simply cease to exist for no reason other than the body is worn out and can no longer function; and a fire burns in every soul, that can only be quenched by another soul or by death. And some people say that everything blows up in the end anyway so, _ what is it worth?




Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 09-30-2003 07:28

The Holy Trinity is the only one true God, the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Basic communication theory was not started by man, it was in existance before all eternity in the Trinity...

Let me take you back to your most basic networking class if I will





Basic communication theory states that there is a source, a transmitter, a filter and a reciever. There is also a feedback loop.

The way the Holy Trinity is setup in Orthodox Christianity is in just this way...

The Father is the source,
The Son is the transmitter,
The Holy Spirit is the filter, the filter can also be theology, which if it is wrong the message at the end will be wrong.
and We (mankind) are the recievers.
The feedback loop is The one true Church that Christ Started.

For more information on Orthodox Christianity visit http://www.goarch.org/

josh
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 10-02-2003 12:13

eh, telephones are better.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-02-2003 17:30

Maskkkk,

Interesting to say the least. Are you saying the Holy Spirit can be substituted for theology? Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit, if it is theology, can be wrong? If you are saying He can be wrong then doesn't that mean God is also wrong? I just need some clarification on putting the Holy Spirit on the same level as theology.

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-02-2003 18:13

If I'm understanding him correctly The Holy Spirit can be enhanced or interupted by theology... depending on whether or not the theology is correct or not. If the theology is wrong, or tainted, then the religion based on that is incorrect or tainted. Our filter is dirty, hence the church built on that filter is dirty. The Holy Spirit is a pure filter. The fisrt church based on that pure filter is the only true religion. At least that's what the diagram reads like.

The problem I see today is that the Church is pushing the theology. They are filtering the pure filter. It's too much BS (dirt) in the mix. Doesn't that make the feedback loop... feed itself? An endless cycle where the message can't be verified against the source because the loop never makes it back to the source?

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-02-2003 22:08

I have a serious problem with putting the "church" between us and the Father. That role is reserved *only* for the Son. He is the *only* mediator between us and the Father.

I believe the Holy Spirit is pure but it is how much we are able to open up to His words that determines how well we understand His directions. So I would say that the problems occur with our imperfect abilities to handle the perfect will of God. But that is why the Holy Spirit is now with us, so that we don't have to do it alone. We have access to the "source".

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-02-2003 22:25

That is a far cleaner cycle. We are making the theology. Whether we understand it fully or not. So it moves thus: The Father to the Son to us. To the Spirit to the Father. Rinse/Repeat. That agrees with my philosophy rather well I would use different terms but it shows what I mean when I say religion is the issue that causes trouble. The theology causes problems as well but it is a growing and changing entity directly related to our knowledge. From my experience, religions seem to resist change and growth.

Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 10-03-2003 19:01

Ah wow that sparked some good discussion....

Ok well given that my priest told me about this, and since he is the one who told me this I will go back and find out what he ment by this on Monday, and reply later in the week.

Bugimus I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit can be wrong, because He cannot be wrong.
Error is a Human thing.

See you next week!

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-03-2003 20:38

Cool. Thanks, Maskkkk.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-03-2003 20:52

Bugs posted.

I have a serious problem with putting the "church" between us and the Father. That role is reserved *only* for the Son. He is the *only* mediator between us and the Father.

What about in scripture when you read that the "church is the body of christ". Remember what Jesus told Paul on the way to Damsacus, "Saul, Saul, why do you perscute me, meaning he was killing thousands of christians, who were the body of believers, the early church who mystically is Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit is all one in the same, if you believe in the trinity. So there is no mediator. Dealing directly with the church is getting to Christ person to person. Per scripture the Church is also the "pillar and foundation of truth" meaing in truth because Jesus is the only truth. Now if you consider that the church is either a physical buiding, people, messenger, institution then, I can see your point. My church says we are all one. All Christ and us together in union like a bride and groom. Scripture refers to the chruch as the bride of christ. What happens when a groom takes a bride? They become one. When you really think about the theology of this, its such a beautiful revelation to me.
Also in scripture it states that where people are gathered together and disagree on scripture meaning, they are to consult with the church, who is the final authority of truth. What church in your opinion would this be?


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-03-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-03-2003 22:34

Jade,

I agree 100% that the church is comprised of believers in Christ and all believers are called His body. The church is *not* the building for that is only the place where the "body" meets.

You are saying that there is no mediator but I have to disagree. Christ is our conduit to the father just as Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time."

The church is NOT Christ in every respect. I believe it is a mistake to say that Christ and the Church are one and the same. It is true that we are His body but that is an illustration of our role and not elevating the church (all believers) to godhood. In fact, I would consider it blasphemous to say that we are equal to God.

Paul does indeed also say in 1 Timothy 3:14-15, "Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." I agree with this. We, that is the church which is comprised of all believers in Christ, are the pillare and foundation of the truth. Why? Because we have accepted His grace and have been baptized into Him and have therefore been indwelt with the Holy Spirit Himself who guides each and every one of us according to God's will.

Do you agree with any of that?

. . : slicePuzzle

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-04-2003 01:02
quote:
So there is no mediator.



i always thought the catholic church considered priests the mediators? hearing confession on your behalf, etc.?

chris


KAIROSinteractive

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-04-2003 06:21

One Mediator? Yes, you are correct Bugs.

I would never intentionally blaspheme. I don't think what I posted implies that. I would never presume to put myself in the place of God as to think I am on Gods level.

I meant in the respect to the relationship between Christ to the Church, that there is no mediator. In the offering of a mass, Christ is mediating to the father. In respect to the salvation of mankind the mediator can only be Christ Jesus.
Per Paul's letters, In, " For there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men, the man is Christ Jesus" I interpret this as only Jesus can redeem you. And thur the Churchs mystical life, this is possible or why else would Christ tell Peter to establish a church and to honor his sacrifice for mankind in his memory.

Why do you think Christ needed a mediator to come to us in the person of the Virgin Mary? Christ could of popped up human and divine in the sky. Also in scripture isn't there many mediators, like Moses, Abraham, Noah, Apostles who cured in his name and great prophets like John the baptist and evangelizers like Paul. Why does God use humans in biblical history to do his will? When we say mediators, couldn't we say they were used in the planning and realizing of God's divine plan? Why do you need a pastor or other church members to pray for you? Why do they need to mediate between you and Jesus? Do you think their prayers to Jesus will help make you well? Can they interceed on your behalf? Would you regard them as mediators if they offer themselves up in sacrifice for you? Like bargin with God to achieve a good outcome. Do you think you can just have a one on one personal relationship with Christ by staying home without belonging to a family of believers? I don't think this is what Jesus or Paul intended. To me the church is a ongoing pilgrimage toward heaven which starts on earth. I believe the church is the greatest master plan of God thru which would not have been made possible but by the water and blood which gushed forth from the side wound of Christ symbolizing the waters of baptism and the reedeming blood of Jesus. This church is the great mystery of God in that St Paul refers to as "the bride of Christ" in its experience of love, conjunal love, paternal and maternal love, fraternal love, the love of community of persons and generations. All a family of believers which has taken stages of formation in human history, keeping with God the fathers plan. The church develops a building, the house of God in which his family dwells, the household of the Spirit. This church is a communion of believers who are in communion with each other thur the power of the Holy Trinity by the death and resurrection of Christ the second person. I believe Christ formed his first family in his twelve apostles that form twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem in the book of revelation and on the foundation of the rock of Peters faith to tend the sheep of the flock in the book of John and praying specifically for him that Peters faith may not fail and entrust him with the task of strenghening the brethren in Luke and down thur all the successors of Peter (first 50 popes where maryters of the faith also) until today. You can see the structure of the church has taken shape thur the ages and will remain so until the kingdom on earth is fully achieved.

Fig

Priest gather Gods family together as a brotherhood of a living unity, and leads it through Christ and in the Spirit of God the Father. In Christ Jesus, the human family is called to be the family of God. Doesn't a domestic family need a father? So too the domestic church family needs a father to father the earthly church. Fatherhood is so important to the family for so many reasons, For protection, for love, for support, for guidance,etc.
Just as the church should have and needs fatherhood. As christ gave the apostles the power to forgive and heal, so too thur the sacrament of holy orders does Christ give a royal priesthood power to forgive and heal hearts. Most important the priest in the holy sacrifice of the mass acts in "persona christi" as he memorializes the sacrifice of Christ body/blood for our salvation. In the meaning of our Sunday masses, we as a family of believers meet to be communal. To pray for each other in the greatest form of prayer, a mass. We go thur the trials of life all 6 days of the week. We suffer, we toil, we are ill, we are accused, we go thru hard trials with family and work. Fears, rejection, lonliness, sadness, traumas. All the bad that happens to us, we come together and with the help of the angels and saints offer up all this to God thur the son in remembering the last supper. We do no crucify Jesus over again every day at masses. We continue to sin and go against God and when the priest at mass is saying, " This is my body which is given up for you, take it, eat it and do this in memory of me. This is by blood which will be given up for you, take it, drink it and do this in memory of me, This will be shed for you so that your sins may be forgiven" Christ is still offering up himself to the father for our sake today and tomorrow and forever as long as we are on this earth. The priest is not God or Jesus in Mass, but will offer in the name of Jesus. Here Jesus is mediating for us to the father. Christ is present at all masses in the form of a host which is consecrated to become the body, blood, soul and divinty of Christ, thur the power of transubstranciation. Jesus is, constantly pleading on our behalf to God his father in heaven. We believe if we could tap into the supernatural, we could see Jesus Christ offering himself to his father for our pains and our sufferings. We are also saying, I know living is a struggle, but I will endure it with your help and others help. We don't stay in the perpetual 6666666 and not offer & give our hearts minds and souls on the 7th in thanksgiving for his passion & death for our salvation. Thats why for catholics to miss mass is so serious. If we do not attend Mass on the holy day, we must go to confession and be truly sorry for not becoming one with Christ in thanksgiving. Its a commitment for some and an act of love for others depending our their journey in faith. Priest are not holier that the rest or closer to god or better than all, just that they have chosen a marriage to Jesus christ as spouse instead of taking a real life spouse. They are special to us and we treat them with honor because they have chosen to be high priest forever until their death for our sake. They are not forced to be celibate, for most its is a commited for love of God and Gods church here on earth.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-04-2003).]

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-04-2003 08:23

jade, i agree that there are definite leadership roles that priests/pastors undertake for a congregation. however, i find the idea of needing someone else to intercede for us or forgive us completely against scripture. i'm forgiven because i've accepted christ as my personal savior and because i ask forgiveness for my sins. i'm saved and forgiven by grace alone, not on the actions of others.

i've found personally that the catholic church seems to instill more a sense of obligation when it comes to attending mass rather than one of being "truly sorry" as you mention, but i won't get into that as you already know we've got some differing issues on the catholic church and its viewpoints.


KAIROSinteractive

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-04-2003 10:18

Jade, I really didn't mean to imply that you were blaspheming. I just wanted to point out that if anyone did equate the church with God that would be the result. I understand you were not doing that at all.

You clarified your point with:

quote:
I meant in the respect to the relationship between Christ to the Church, that there is no mediator.

Ok, I totally agree that there is no mediator between the church and Christ. We can go directly to Christ and because of what He did for us, we can therefore access the Father in Christ's name.

Who is the church? It is you, me, Fig, and every other baptized believer in Jesus Christ, yes? You see this all comes back to our different view of what the church is. I know that you believe the church is seated in Rome and is much more than just the sum of every believer. I understand your position pretty well and I think you understand mine. I have had many discussionw with some rather knowledgeable Roman Catholics and have learned a great deal about the structure and theology of your church.

The fact of the matter is I view Roman Catholics as wayward brothers and sisters and I know that most Roman Catholics feel the same about Christians like me and Fig.


That being said, it is instructive sometimes to explain our differences. I have understood that your priests are considered mediators between you and God. In order to receive grace, you must get it from them. Is that not your understanding? I know that the grace comes from God, but it is administered through the priesthood, yes? I also attended a debate between a Roman Catholic theologian and a protestant minister. It was very interesting to say the least because it was about this very topic of the priesthood. The Roman Catholic guy ended his arguments by pointing out that the RC priesthood is the New Covenant's version of the Old Covenant priests. In the OT, the people did have to go through priests to access God.

So in answer to your question about Moses, Noah, etc being mediators, I would tend to agree that they were just that because that was how God structured the Old Covenant. BUT when you get to the New Testament, we have a very different set up. Christ destroyed the barrier between us and God that made it necessary to go through mediators. Now we go straight to Christ. I feel confident I can make a strong case for that view from the New Testament writings.

In regards to me thinking I need other Christians or pastors to mediate for me. I do not think that is required. If you mean intercede on my behalf, then that is a very good thing. They do not act as a "go between" for me but they can certainly petition God for help. That is very scriptural and I have no problem with that at all. I tend to take the view that God will do what He wants and our prayers are really more for our benefit than anything else. I believe that as long as our requests match His will, then we will be answered. But that is really just my view, I am less able to back that one up so I don't want to be dogmatic about it.

Do I think I can avoid going to church and be a good Christian? No I do not. Paul instructs us to not forsake the fellowship and I take that admonition very seriously. One of the most central concepts of Xianity is that we touch others with the love of God. You simply cannot do that by avoiding others. So we probably agree on that one.

About your reply to Fig about the church needing leadership, I believe that too. I think we are to model our church leadership after the churches in the New Testament. You will not find a pope, bishops, nor priests in these churches. You will find churches in every city seeing each other as autonomous to one another and peers in a sense. Each of these churches were led by members of upstanding reputations and ethics within the community and they were known as elders or pastors. There was no bishop overseeing a group of local churches and there was no central authority other than the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God. This is the way the church is to be and not what the Roman Catholic church has become over centuries of mutation. I am telling this to you straight and it is not meant in a bad way. This is my opinion and position which I base on my reading of the early history of the church primarily from the New Testament and the writings of the early apostolic fathers.

. . : slicePuzzle

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-04-2003 22:46

I dont understand, since it says that you shall not build idol for god...why is everyone doing it anyway?
we have sculptures, the huge cathedras, crosses, stained glasses, images of god, paintnings...I understand its nice to look at, but what about the commandment you should uphold?

edit: ohh and bugs, when it is metioned in bible about church, I think what the author was trying to say is the heart not the actual building...since it was catholic church that translated the bible, I believe they tweeked those worlds in order for people to actually attend mass and buy pardons.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-04-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-06-2003 00:03

Bugs &Fig
Thank you for your responses. Me discussing faith with you helps me focus on whats important as I am going thru a certain trial period of darkness and I ask you to pray for me that I will make it thru. I thought of you both as I was listening to the homily at mass today and thanked God how the Lord sends people to inspire the heart.

I would in noway ever presume to say your wayward christians. In fact the opposite. I would never judge ones faith as to what I think it should be. We are searching on different roads headed to the same destination. Maybe one day our paths will meet. Maybe not.

To answer your question Bugs, I believe grace is fully given by God like a gift. The gift of sanctifying grace is offered to all without the use of priest or religious. Priest don't save us. We save ourselves and priest are instrumental like tools to do Gods will and in administering Gods plans and to help guide the faithful. I think God needs all the helpers he can get to show the lost and you will have to agree their are so many lost souls who don't know where to turn or go and are in need of religious.

I have problem with believing that God would want us to be so divided amongst each other on what is and isn't what his son Jesus intends or intended. That its Gods plan for use to all go our separate ways in which God individually talks to us thru private revelation tells us what right to do and wrong to do that is contrary to what are neighbors and friends are doing or in how they are interpreting scripture. I don't see how God would be pleased with this in seeing how his sons body is divided in many parts. I would think God wants us to be one faith & one body and this is scriptural, but that doesn't mean if we are not all in agreement some of us won't inherit the kingdom. I believe God calls all to be believers where ever they are at in their walk in life. Some of them are given grace in abundance. Some people have such a big shinning and you can tell the grace of God has really touched them.

The priesthood in Catholicism is thought of as royal fatherhood and of God here on earth. Just like Jesus referred to Abraham as father, so we too refer to priest as fathers because they help father the faithful to keep them in Gods grace. Real fatherhood here on earth operates in the same way. What father wouldn't want happiness & wellbeing for his sons & daughers here on earth. So too, do the priesthood, bishops, popes have the same hopes for all the children of God in reaching everlasting life. So what wrong with that? Its good to have people who God has choosen and they have accepted fully with much sacrifice. They can never marry or have children, never own property, they take a vow of celibacy, they take a vow of poverty and vow to father the people of God forever till they die. They are not forced or made to accept this. They are married to the church of God and they accept all that goes with this. They in their humanity have the same feelings and go thru trials of darkenss like we all do. They have parents, brothers, sisters, nephews and nieces. They are not set apart from us and do not sit on a pedestal. They consider themselves servants of the God and servants to Gods people. They do it for love of God. So I think they deserve much respect from us for this reason.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-06-2003).]

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-06-2003 04:04

priest=tool? ait he is supposed to be something called human, who is like everyone else?

priest, teacher, phylosopher all same to me, he is simply prieching his phylosophy on what he thinks is right and the way it should be, there is no right or wrong there is only difference of oppinions.

there is not a single religeon that is "correct" . People are simly given to believe what they want to believe, the information that suits them best, the information that fits better their personality for their way of life. BOOYAH


cant you understand it jade, so simple. why is christainity so divided huh?
greed! everyone wants to have it their way...

"Hey, I am right, everyone that doesnt agree : WRONG!" goes off and makes his religeon...and so on and on and on.

would you rather chose karate or jeet kun do? after all both are made for fighting, exercise, self defence and so on.....people chose what fits them best, what in their own individual opinion what is good for them. End of story, I hope you get the drill.

would you say that having an idividual thought is a "sin"?
just because someone doesnt think the way you do, is he supposed to be damned for eternity by supreme creator?
cmon jade think about it.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-06-2003 20:07

Rusik wrote:

"there is not a single religion that is "correct"

Ok....why? Do you know something that members of organized religions don't?

I would have to say that one of the reasons christianity has splintered into thousands of sects is becasue they claim to have discovered their own way to christ which better suits their lifestyle. Usually they are pastor centered on what the opinion of the pastors are in regard to how they see the bible interpreted. Anyone can start a church. I see a lot these days in shopping centers like business to make money and most of the money are for the pastors pockets. I would think some are sincere. But a lot are for greed. If you have a charasmatic personality and have a way with words you can hook, line and sink anyone in like salesmen. Some people are too willing to be led good religious leadership. Its like selling salvation for a weekly tithe. Usually when the pastor fails, so does the church and in cases closes down.

I don't think that I am right and everyone else wrong. I cannot have an opinion in regard to my faith in matters of doctrine. I only know the truth in Christ who is the founder. Do I believe my faith is the true church Christ intended to establish? Yes. I do. ITs the teaching of my church to believe this. If I am unsure of this, then that would be a really big problem for me. Some people go shopping around for a church that fulfills the kind of beliefs that fit with their lifestyle so its easier with less obligations and rules. A lot of people have problems with authority and just can't see a big institution telling them how to live their personal lives, sort of like the US Goverment.

I see the point you are trying to make with the martial arts and Christianity analogy. I know there are similarities. They both require great discpline, commitment and great dedication. They both are good for your emotional well being and body. They both can protect you in defense against bad elements. But one is only a temporary and the other goes the further distance in achieving living forever to beyond what our limited human minds can imagine.

Its ok to ponder and think how this whole idea of the world fits together in regard to ones faith. God doesn't want you to have a zombie like attitude and just follow where you are led. God gives us the grace to look and find truth ourselves. Its God pulling like a magnet thur the whole lifespan. Some resist the pull thur misguided love of earthly temporary attachments.
The creator doesn't dam one to hell. Lets take it out of God's court and put it in yours. The person makes that choice thru love of evil which is anything that takes them away from God. So don't blame God for anything wrong. There is a divine justice that one has to go thur and there can be no escape from this.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-06-2003 21:37

Not a single religion correct... about what?

I think a religion can be correct about whether Jesus Christ lived and died on a cross and then was raised from the dead 3 days later. That either happened or it did not. If it did happen, then you have millions of people on this planet that belong to religions that are correct about that.

Now those very same millions of people disagree on whether church government should look like the church Jade attends or the one I attend. We have very different leadership structures to say the least.

Ruski, I understand you associate with people who give you a real hard time but please try not to take it out on us here. While I agree very strongly that you (and everyone else) needs faith in Christ to go to heaven, I don't always agree with the methods that people use in getting that message across. I think our best model for transmitting this message comes from Christ himself. He did it unequivocally all the while demonstrating his overwhelming love for us.

Jade, like I said before, I understand our differences pretty well but I do not want to let that interfere with our agreements. I hear that you are going through some tough times and I am more than happy to include you in my prayers. I'm sure that goes for most around here as well.

. . : slicePuzzle

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-06-2003 21:59

WEll I am not bothered really on Ruski's approach in discussing or responding to post regarding faith. I would be interested in knowing where his feelings or opinions are rooted and am interested in knowing why he feels the way he does. Even if he has a negative view of christianity, it matters to me how a christian relates to him.



Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-06-2003 23:12

I dont have negative view on christianity, but I do have negative view on catholic church, sorry jade.
I was raised in catholic family myself, when I moved to USA somehow I got into christian school, where I was learning 2 points of views.
I came to understand that in my oppion and acording to bible the catholic church idolizes things too much and performs useless seremonies as well prohibits to do normal things such as letting woman preach or letting preast to get married....this led me to isolation from catholic faith....I also dislike alot of fanatic people in my school, dont get me wrong I highly respect bugs and I highly respect christainity and I agree that christian teachings has what other religeons dont, but I happened not to belive in after life or anything like that, it doesnt make sense to me whatsoever.
A creator who creats an imperfect creation and judges it with punishment and reward, only giving a room for 2 choses, heaven or hell...doesnt seems like there is much free will at all.

second in my oppinion afterlife is totally unecessary, I dont know what happens but I am sure as hell there is no gonna be "heaven-hell thing" it sounds just to simply for supreme being (if he exist) to do something as that.

overall immortal life was a human dream for centuries and I believe they are just ideas.
I do believe in mystery of nature and I think its way far beyond human imagination or explanation to understand it or even think about it.

Over centuries people came to fear idea of hell alot, first they relied on buying pardons from catholic church, then some of them isolated and fallowed the bible pure way, "by faith" which led to many other ideas how to reach heaven what to do or what not...as well turning into crusaids blah blah you know it all I guess....

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-06-2003 23:39

Even though its a matter of ones opinion on what faith is christian or not, Catholics consider themselves Christ followers. I think Christ would like that we consider ourselves his servants and that is all that matters . I see your view is subject to predjudices given by anti-Catholics or misinformed teachers. Now I undertand the attitude towards me in your post.

Is any of your family still Catholics? In your view, who do Catholics iodolize? Contrary to popular belief we do not worship statues. That what protestants what you to believe, but it has never been so. IT is a misconception that has no grounds. If one would think about that idea with all the other beliefs the church enspouses, it seems so absurd to think that way. Almost elementary in thinking. Worship is for God alone and we teach that.



Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-07-2003 00:18

No, it has nothing to do with teacher its my own full thinking.....I dont like the teachers myself.

yes my family is still catholic for they are not where I am....also my mom is still catholic......

now jade you guys put to much things between yourself and christ, apostles, virgina mary( and you even believe that she was always virgin) jesus had a brother you know, priest, confesions to priests and baptizing of babies, I dont like those things for they are not mentioned in bible to be fallowed. Its even never mentioned in bible that you should baptize baby, becouse baby doesnt recognize "sin" , when a person is grown up for himself he should himself chose if he wants to get baptized or not....now I also dislike alot of protestan fanatics, they constantly shove their nose in my face and saying shit, trying to convert me.....and catholics always blabling how sinful its to change the faith.

I am a religios person, but am I of any group? no.

religeon= A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

does it has to do with anything supernatural? no
so yes atheism is also a religeon.
am I atheist? no


now catholic make statues and crosses with christ hanging there...its already an idolization, god said in bible "you shall not make an idol of me neither of gold nor of silver"
When christ came to a city people started putting palm leaves or cloth for him to cross but he said it clear : NO IDOLS...you dont need things, crosses, tools to believe in christ, those all practices are completly useless.
it doesnt matter you worship christ or god , you still make idol out of them, you make idols out of aposltes and pray to them, paintings of virgin mary and pray to her, statues of christ on the cross and pray to him this are all idols....I think the christain matter has to be practiced through soul and not idolization.


edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-07-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 01:15

Interesting -

quote:
Some people are too willing to be led good religious leadership. Its like selling salvation for a weekly tithe



That's how I see catholicism =)

Of course, through political heavy heandedness and violent campaign, they've managed to stick around a few hundred years longer than the average shopping mall 'salvation stations'



Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 03:03

ruski, paying respect to something or remembering it in some way isn't idolatry. do you have a poster of anything on your wall? if so that's idolatry by your definition.

if that image/symbol/etc. becomes more important than or takes precedence over God or following your faith THEN it could be considered idolatry.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-07-2003 04:03

nope sorry I have no posters on my wall or anything like that.

and since we dont even know how they looked we make up an image and build a statue for it, isnt it funny?

White, skinny Jesus with blue eyes, catholic nun virgin marry, Dude with big white beard god....gimmy a brake

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 04:27

Images can be *used* in the right way. That is the point I think. Images that portray Jesus as a white European are hilarious to me but that doesn't mean that people are looking at those images for racial reasons. They are usually looking to those images as a way to remind them of something important.

Now I have no doubt that there are plenty of Catholics who do engage in idolatry. I also know for a fact that there are evangelicals who also commit that sin... just not with statues. You pointed out how religion should occur in the heart, well you're basically right. As long as the images are kept in their right perspective there is no problem with them.

. . : slicePuzzle

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-07-2003 04:31



eyezaer
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: the Psychiatric Ward
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 04:43

Ruski, Why here you go... a rather nice looking brake. . .

heh.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-07-2003 16:42

DL,

We are not forced to tithe. We give from the heart what we can. Some give of their time instead to help the growth of the church. In order for anykind of church to exist it must have funds. How is Gods churches on earth going to spread the message of salvation? Do you think giving money in this case would be OK?
Like any other institution the church has bills. I use to work in a rectory as a student and the electricity bill was over $6000.00 just for one month, plus in order to operate and provide services and give to the poor we must have funds to give. And we house a food pantry for the less unfortunate. So people give all the time. But one must never be forced to give. I hear people crying all the time complaining that the chruch is always asking for money, but they see no problem spending thousands of dollars on pleasure trips, excesses, luxuries, jewerly, etc. They feel everything in church should come free because it represents God and it would be ok with God if they only gave a dollar or two a month.

Ruski

In reference to idols, the revelation about this is don't idoloize any person or thing that takes you away from God. It would be considered false worship. This means drugs, alcohol, money, movie stars, celebrities, sports figures, power over any person, place or thing, musicians like madonna, kurt cobain, brittney spears, etc. I know people who idolize kurt cobain like he was so great but he was a drug addict who commited suicide. Look at Elvis? He has a shrine built in his honor. Is this false worship? Yes it is. You will have to agree there is a lot of false idolozing in these. What about statues and bust of great heros of our country? Look at the Lincoln memorial, Mt Rushmore, etc.
What do you think about these? Do they make you feel pride and love of country?

If the idol focuses you to think of God like a stain glass window, a cross, a picture of Christ, a statue of CHrist or his nativity props at Christmas time, or his mother the virgin mary and his great apostles and saints that did his will and are maryters of the faith, then they are ok. Because you think of Christ and remember his mission and death and ressurection. Why do we remember Christmas or Easter? Why do we celebrate those times of the year? Why about a Christmas tree? Isn't it a symbol of the remembrance of the birth of Christ? Its because they make us think of Christ? So what is the difference if physical pieces draw us to see Christ in them and think of him. I think thats what Christ would want us to do as much as possible. So there is no worship given in the material made of stone or of wood or clay, just who it makes us think of. What if there were no physical signs of Christ here on earth? Wouldn't that mean we would think of Christ less often? So I think Christ has a hand in making these symbols available to us. I am sure you have a picture of your friend, girlfriend or family member in your house or wallet, because it makes you think of them because they are close to you and in remebrance of how much love or like them you keep them close to you.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 17:32
quote:
In order for anykind of church to exist it must have funds. How is Gods churches on earth going to spread the message of salvation? Do you think giving money in this case would be OK?



Well, looking at the extravagance of any catholic church I have ever seen, and especially the splendor of Rome, I think it is fair to say that the money has been used for far more than "spreading the message of salvation".

Of course, the catholic church - as I mentioned - has had some pretty violent and 'ungodly' ways of spreading that message....

And of course you are not *forced* to tithe...neither are the people that you originally mentioned (You may recall that you are the one who brought it up? I just pointed it back at you...). I never said anything about being forced. Yo implied that people gave money in order to help secure their salvation. Can you possibly even attempt to say that such things are not rampant among catholics?

quote:
Why about a Christmas tree? Isn't it a symbol of the remembrance of the birth of Christ?



No. As a matter of fact, it is a very *un* christian symbol. It is a remnant of the pagan druidic religions of the germanic barbarian tribes that were violently and warfully converted to christianity. The evergreen was a symbol of one of their immortal dieties, and was held sacred. It was often the focal point of their winter solstice celebration - you know, the 'yule' that was celebrated at that time long before "christmas" ever came to be....

The christmas tree was a way of saying "we haven't forgotten who we are, despite our forced submission". Not a way to remember the birth of christ....




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-07-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-07-2003 17:47

Oh yeah thats right about the tree. But we still use it as an external to memorialize Christ birth. So, that is whats important.

All the extravagence of Rome belongs to all. Even non-catholics.
Its Christian legacy. Its only in a trust of safekeeping like historical items of times long gone. I know they have to most famous artwork in the world, but it doesn't amount to anything unless its sold and that would never happen. If your ever in Rome check out the beauty and splendor. Its breathtaking. They say you can fit the space shuttle over the main altar and still have room at the top left over.

Don't you own items DL that you could never put a price tag on because they are too meaningful to you?



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 19:30

Your backwards rationalization is quite astounding Jade.

You can find a way to justify absolutely anything with meaningless and contradictory words, and somehow not notice the contradictions and oversights...

We most certainly do not use the chrismas tree as a way to remember chirst, we use it as decoration and a place to put presents. In what way does it possibly symbolize christ? And if you *do* use it that way, then it is just one more thing that roman catholicism has stolen from another culture and then pretended that they themselves created it...

=)

And you make it seem as if the catholic church just happened to stumble upon these very un-christ like lavishly rich buildings that we call the Vatican. That the church is simply preserving their beauty for all to enjoy....that they didn't spend insane amounts of money building them for the sole purpose of making a very earthly and material display.
That the church should have an altar so large and expensive, housed in a building so large and expensive, housing people that are pampered and live at the expense of the public, is very counter to the basic ideaology of christ.

That we should adorn churches with such expenisve and useless objects that we do is an affront to the senses, and a memorial to hypocrasy.

What would St. Francis say upon finding golden statues of himself? Can you imagine?

Things that mean too much to me to put a price tag on? Certainly.

Things that cost inordinate amounts of money, bought for the express purpose of looking fancy in a church service? That's a different story.




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-07-2003).]

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-07-2003 19:35
quote:
Oh yeah thats right about the tree. But we still use it as an external to memorialize Christ birth. So, that is whats important.

I don't think I've seen so blatent a dismissal of someone elses beliefs in my life. DL is spot on in the origins of the Christmas Tree. One other thing to mention, Christam aligns with Yule because it was a way to appease the Druidic peoples. It doesn't even align with Christ's suggested birth date. At least to my understanding of that issue.

quote:
All the extravagence of Rome belongs to all. Even non-catholics.
Its Christian legacy. Its only in a trust of safekeeping like historical items of times long gone. I know they have to most famous artwork in the world, but it doesn't amount to anything unless its sold and that would never happen. If your ever in Rome check out the beauty and splendor. Its breathtaking. They say you can fit the space shuttle over the main altar and still have room at the top left over.

Except that it doesn't belong to everyone. It belongs to the church. Beatuy and Splendor are all well and good when it isn't at the expense of the masses. How much more could the money that is in the church(es) in Rome have done for people if it was spent on them, instead of material things that are better off in museums?

quote:
Don't you own items DL that you could never put a price tag on because they are too meaningful to you?

This sounds an awful lot like the Idolotry that you were talking about before. Things that are so valuable that they take us away from God. Things that are priceless because their ownership is more important then the item itself lend themselves toward earthly temptations of Greed and Pride. What use has the church for these items? None... none at all. I would rather the purveyers of the faith works from the church of their souls (the only church I'm aware of the bible speaking of) instead of creating impressive bastions of the faith that prove to me time and time again that they don't understand what they claim to believe. If the faith can only attract people by it's "Shock and Awe" value it isn't something I'm likely to be interested in. It's the heart of the faith that should draw people to it, not the wealth of the faith.



{EDIT}We really have to stop meeting liek this, DL =){EDIT}

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-07-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-07-2003 20:05

GD

So if they sell the famous paintings, where should the church put the money? If museums buy them, people are going to pay to look at them. At the Vatican, its free. What about the true relics of the cross like the nails, crown of thorns, robe, lance that pierced christ side, the sign king of the jews that was nail to the top of the crucifixion cross and St Peters bones? What kind of price tag should the church put on those items to sell?

I can see your point on the idols. But it would depend on what they sybolized. If your mother left you a keepsake or something b4 her death or your have your childrens momentos or your entrusted with a family heirloom, would you ever one day sell them? If you did, what would be the reason. I don't think this is worshiping of idols. They are items that remind you of someone(s) you hold dear. They direct you to a feeling of love.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 20:48
quote:
where should the church put the money?

How about leading by example:

quote:
The Rich Young Man

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-07-2003 21:02

This really doesn't answer the question.
How does a poor institution with no money evangelize? In the churchs selling of riches no one person profits. If they give it all to the poor, then what? there will still be poor people to feed. What else could they sell to feed the poor?

Catholic Charities is the largest contributor to the poor not just in the United States but to the poor in nations all over the world. Let me know who tops them.

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 10-07-2003 21:28

after scanning the above, i only have a couple of tidbits to offer

about the evergreen--in the old testament, the fir tree is used as analogy to God as always alive--it's all in how you look at it

quote--' Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." '

"the eye of the needle" is a gate in a city wall used for security reasons when the main gate is shut --only tall enough for a man to walk through--in order for a camel to pass through it has to kneel down and remove it's baggage--this is analogy for a person has to humble themself (realize that in the end he is no better than anyone i.e. he will face death) and unburden ones self of hang-ups--and enter in to safety

i do a poor job of explaining but, there it is anyway

~jeremiah was a bullfrog~

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-07-2003 21:32
quote:
So if they sell the famous paintings, where should the church put the money?

I agree with Bug's response. And it answers the question very well. I'll touch on this further on.

quote:
If museums buy them, people are going to pay to look at them. At the Vatican, its free.

So? Is it better for an institution that has dedicated it's existence to the protection and restoration of historical items to do so to it's fullest or for an institution that has dedicated (if it has) itself to the spiritual needs of the people to do it?

quote:
What about the true relics of the cross like the nails, crown of thorns, robe, lance that pierced christ side, the sign king of the jews that was nail to the top of the crucifixion cross and St Peters bones? What kind of price tag should the church put on those items to sell?

These make sense for the church to have. They relates directly to it's own history and are distinctly siritual in nature. None of what I have been saying has been about price, except for the fact that the church spent money on things it ought not to have IMHO.

quote:
I can see your point on the idols. But it would depend on what they sybolized. If your mother left you a keepsake or something b4 her death or your have your childrens momentos or your entrusted with a family heirloom, would you ever one day sell them? If you did, what would be the reason. I don't think this is worshiping of idols. They are items that remind you of someone(s) you hold dear. They direct you to a feeling of love.

No, I would never sell such items. but I would never sacrifice myself for them either. They are just things. Material goods that mean little to nothing in comparison of the joy that is love and life.

quote:
How does a poor institution with no money evangelize? In the churchs selling of riches no one person profits. If they give it all to the poor, then what? there will still be poor people to feed. What else could they sell to feed the poor?

Herein lies my issue with the church. It seems to think that it has to actively Proselytize or Evangelize. I think that the best way for them to spread the word of God is to do what they were told by the bible. Give to the poor. Do wonderful things for people without expecting recompense. Live life as Christ lived life. Trust me. If everyone in the church started acting this way... word would get around. You don't need money to spread the word. Isn't the phrase Actions speak louder then words derived from a passage in the bible? Actions borne of devotion speak louder than money ever will.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-07-2003 22:05

Nope, I dont idolize not a single TV start or any other loser on earth, the statues of lincolin? nope , you forgot that I am not an american, even if I live here I dont care much, neither I worship anyone from russia, I dont put anybody above me... I dont have a single poster or any other thing in my place about some kind of person....i do admire alot of old art masters and wise people, but I dont go and get myself a bunch of crap like posters and post em in my room, cause I know that all people are same and for a reason why they become great is not magic, just alot of hard work.... no statues, mini statue of liberty figures, crosses or russian flags, american flags, puerto rican flags, whatever....its not for me

what does christmas tree has to do with christ? I always though it had to do something with santa =)

and I havent had a christmas tree in like 3 years already =)


memory stays inside my head jade, not in the "thing" I pay money for.....

everything the most importan I have is in my head, my skills, my knowledge, my memory and such. No one can take them away from me, and for your idols, they can be stolen, broken and such.



jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-07-2003 22:06


OK. About being good and giving up all your possessions for the poor bible verse, that would mean all Christians all called to give up luxuries and do without to give to the poor. You cannot be wealthy and Christian too. So does that means to sell your house, cars, clothes, computers, and all personal possessions and be homeless. You cannot live high on the hog while your brother is starving. Right?

The paintings are also religions frescos and religious pieces so they are referencing the faith.

I agree with you on ones actions speaking louder than words.

A famous saying I like is " preach the gospel and when necessary use words"

But all the christian faithful are called to evangelize and make "disciples of all men" This is in scripture. And words are necessary too. St Paul preached with words endlessly. If he never would have spoken words, Christianity wouldn't have spread like it did. So words and actions together work better.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 22:28
quote:
So if they sell the famous paintings, where should the church put the money? If museums buy them, people are going to pay to look at them. At the Vatican, its free. What about the true relics of the cross like the nails, crown of thorns, robe, lance that pierced christ side, the sign king of the jews that was nail to the top of the crucifixion cross and St Peters bones? What kind of price tag should the church put on those items to sell?



But, once again Jade, I am not talking about religious relics, or paintings on the wall.
I have more than once pointed out exactly what I am talking about, and you have simply ignored the point so that you could defend your meaning seperate from the facts at hand.

Care to address the actual issue that I have brought up?

and then -

quote:
How does a poor institution with no money evangelize?


Maybe they could do it the way jesus did.

There's a novel thought....



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-07-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 23:03

Well, I am not saying that the church is to not have *any* money. It does indeed require money and resources to evangelize and I didn't intend to say it didn't. The issue with the Roman church, however, is one of extravagence. I feel very comfortable criticizing the Catholic church for keeping far too much wealth for it's own adornment and not applying enough of it to doing God's work. And, yes, that means that painting really nice paintings is usually not God's work. They can be uplifting and have their place but on the level of the Roman church, I say it is too much.

The point I am trying to stress is that the church must view all of its possessions as *tools* to accomplish God's will. Now this also applies to every believer so I am preaching to myself on this. Wella and I have made certain financial commitments to God and the numbers are not important except to say that we are struggling to maintain those commitments and I look forward to the day that we can increase those numbers and sustain those as well.

The role model that has inspired me the most concerning wealth and giving is John Wesley. This is a great description of how he viewed this issue for Christians: What Wesley Practiced and Preached About Money
I come no where near his dedication but it is good to have goals. The part that struck me the most when I first heard it was:

quote:
Perhaps as a result of this incident, in 1731, Wesley began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money to give to the poor. He records that one year his income was 30 pounds and his living expenses 28 pounds, so he had 2 pounds to give away. The next year his income doubled, but he still managed to live on 28 pounds, so he had 32 pounds to give to the poor. In the third year, his income jumped to 90 pounds. Instead of letting his expenses rise with his income, he kept them to 28 pounds and gave away 62 pounds. In the fourth year, he received 120 pounds. As before, his expenses were 28 pounds, so his giving rose to 92 pounds.

He was able to live off only enough of his income he needed to be comfortable and stable, the rest he gave away even as his income rose. Awesome!

I have personal friends who have gone overseas to preach the good word to others. In some cases, to countries that are quite hostile to missionaries and so they have to travel and hide the fact that they were missionaries. For instance, they will go to a hostile country as an English teacher but also work with the local Christians behind the scenes. Anyway, this requires money to get them trained and to get them there and get them back safely. People from our church and sister churches all give above and beyond our normal giving to help make this happen.


The Christmas tree issue is an interesting one. I have always understood that evergreen was an ancient symbol of eternal life. I don't know who came up with it first. Was it the Druids or did they just steal it from an earlier culture? The way I see it, it doesn't matter who came up with it first but rather what it means to whomever is using the symbol. To Xians we most certainly do tie significance to the tree. Yes, we stole... er um... coopted it from the peoples we conquered... er um... evangelized But I think that is great. People's cultures don't need to be changed by the missionaries. Christ will handle that in his own good time. Besides, our culture is no more superior to God than anyone else's... in the grand scheme of things. The most important thing is that people come to know Christ, then and only then will the culture be modified from within by those who now see it in a new light.

. . : slicePuzzle

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-07-2003 23:15

DL

Go ahead & label me ignorant to satisfy an edge you think you have over me.

If I take the view you have, from the outside looking in I could see it the way you do. A bunch of religious fanatics trying to spread their wealth as well as their errors in the world. And I agree that the Catholic church popes in those times wanted to make the grandest church in comparison with all the gradure to compare with the castles and palaces of kingdoms of the day. But I believe this was also an inspiration of Gods in making place christians could call the physical centerpoint of its faith. Many Christians have longings to visit the Vatican because for us its the history of faith that we can actually set our eyes on. The only ones concerned about riches of the vatican are mostly anti-catholics because they lack the understanding of the precious history of christianity. Catholics could never think of the pope selling pieces of our religious heritage.

I know you have mentioned St. Frances on more than one occasion, and it seems you are uneducated in his history. He highly respected the Catholic church and its pope and would only start his order if the pope ok'd it. He was elected to sainthood and so popular a saint today for all people of every denomination. He is especially known for this prayer which says nothing of the grandure of Rome:

Lord, Make Me an Instrument
- attributed to St. Francis of Assisi (1181-1226)

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love:
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.




Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-07-2003 23:23

Jade, I'm not on the outside and I think the church could do with a bit less of the "trimmings". And I think we need to be careful to make sure that what we consider to be "precious" to Christianity is in line with what our Father considers to be precious. From my reading of scripture, reaching the lost has to take the highest priority. Everything we as Christ's body do must be in that context or we run the risk of falling outside of His will. And please understand that this is pointed at all of us and not just the Catholics. But it is easy to see where the Catholics have put much of the wealth because the jewels and gold tend to be quite eye catching.

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-08-2003 03:40
quote:
Go ahead & label me ignorant to satisfy an edge you think you have over me.



I've done no such thing.

I have asked you to address my points.

But, as you have since the very beginning, you instead turn overly defensive to comments that you seem to imagine have been made.

Yes, I am quite sure St Francis was loyal to the church, and obeyed the pope. That has nothing to do with my point.

The idea that the history of the christian faith is housed in the Vatican is - IMO - abusrd. The true history of the christian faith lies far more in the rural abbeys, in the lives of the peasants, in the books that were reproduced by monks, furthering the possibility of education.

The history of the catholic political and corporate orgainzations do, however, lay in the Vatican.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-08-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-08-2003 04:30

Bugs I know we are all in the learning stages of christianity and everyones insights on faith are gifts to all who have ears to hear. Christian churchs are separated bodies who have a brotherhood in Jesus.

In reference to gold and jewels, I had the opportunity to see the treasures of the Vatican at a museum here in Houston. It was under very tight security. The vatican rarely lets these items be viewed and some had never been viewed b-4, but on a cap beaded with jewels that was a gift from Napoleon had the largest emerald recorded in the world on top of a pontiffs cap. It was so magnificant. I saw it as a treasured religious article, not an item that shows wealth of a powerful religious instiution. It was awsome to see such a treasure given to a pope. All the items had such a rich history. Some of the oldest bibles that were written on parchment paper by monks was unbeliveable. It had beautiful writing with colored large letters that started a book of the bible. I couldn't believe that monks actually took a whole year to complete a bible. One gift was a beautiful tapestry of the current Dali Lama that he did himself for Pope John Paul. It was one of the stand out items that everyone wanted to see. I felt so in awe to see history. A history for all christians to see no matter what denomination because its their history too.

DL

Well, have you ever read the history of christianity from the very beginnings. Not a bias book but a secular book from the library on the history which will give you the facts without lies and distortions. I know you wont be suprised on how many schisms, wars, abuses and changes the catholic church has experienced in its 2000 years. Its still faces dissent from within and hatred outside but regardless it has reamarkable staying power. Where other denominations are caving in to the social culture of evil today, the catholic church does not, will not and never will. You have to wonder that it could possibly have a have a powerful force not of this world that could carry it thru the end of time.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-08-2003 05:10

You "have to wonder" a lot of things, Jade
But none of that has anything to do with the rest of this conversation....

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-08-2003 14:53

Ok DL I'll stop. I tend to get carried away with myself and could go on and on.

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-08-2003 15:59
quote:
Maybe they could do it the way jesus did.

Exactly! That was a much better way to say that, Thanx DL.



jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-08-2003 16:45

But they are. Please wake up and smell the coffee. The body is made up of many people which travel the world to spread the gospel. Have you ever heard of missionaries. They leave their home and families in the name of Jesus. Tons of them are catholics too.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-08-2003).]

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-08-2003 16:51
quote:
I tend to get carried away with myself and could go on and on.



Yup, yup, yup.
Constantly jumping topics and never sticking to one, because the defence seems to be down and you cant really answear the questions.

Jade, why is it so awesome to see some old geezer who claims to be "holy" get the treasure?

He might be involved with mafia, whatever, you never know.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-08-2003 18:14
quote:
But they are. Please wake up and smell the coffee.



Jade, you asked how a church was supposed to evengelize without money.

The answer was "maybe they could do it the way jesus did"

You say they are - well if they are, then they don't need so much money....

Yes, I understand that money does go toward helping the poor, and of course that is a good thing.

The only point was that you don't need huge gold-infested marble buildings and a horder of bishops living high on the hog at the people's expense in order to spread the word of Jesus.



jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-08-2003 20:04

DL

Where is the proof they live high on the hog? Thats news to me.

How come the president of the US of A lives in a grand mansion white house, with splendor and a retreat home. His own personal jet. Expensive foods, luxurious decorated rooms in the white house. No expense is spared while American adults & children are starving and homeless? I imagine his forks and spoons are made of real gold. So whats the difference?

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-08-2003 20:17

Again you dodge the actual point...

The difference is, the president is very openly and obviously the head of an earthly political organization.

Whereas the Pope and bishops are supposedly devoting their lives to Jesus' word and presenting themselves as living examples of the faith and its ideaologies.

I would hope, as a devout catholic, that you see a difference betwen the two positions??

Are you actually going to try to use the actions of a political leader to defend the actions of what you purport to be the highest authority in your selfless, humble, and charitable religion??



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-08-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-08-2003 20:30

The difference is that you and I, Jade, are citizens of the kingdom of God... Bush is not. (edit: well, actually he is but not in the role of prez) You know the church has vast riches, you even said so above. The point is that all of that wealth that is invested in history and adoration of an institution could be much better used for the work of God. We should only have and use as much money as is reasonable on ourselves and get the rest of it working to help out those who need it more.

No one is saying the church doesn't already do a lot of good work. We are saying it should practice the principles it stands for better than anyone else as an EXAMPLE for the rest of us. The best example we have is that of Christ and the church can stand to wake up and smell the coffee on that. You did not see Christ running around in gold and jewels.

But it needs to be stressed that he was not a pauper either. Remember that Judas was the treasurer of the group. The apostles needed money and resources to do what they did. Quite often they relied on the charity of the local communities as they travelled but they also worked for some of their way. In fact, the book of Acts describes much of that and there are even letters of Paul where he talks about how he handles paying for his way and balances that with the charity of the local churches.

This is one of the things that drives me absolutely crazy when I discuss these things with Catholics... at least the ones I've known. You can never admit *any* shortcomings made by the church. Even when they are comletely obvious excuses are made when it would be much better in my estimation to acknowledge them and fix the damn things!!! I still remember the molestation scandal and how I knew about this a decade before the latest flurry of charges came out. I could not for the life of me understand why the church insisted on covering up this behavior.

I must say, sadly, that I believe the church has put *itself* and its own failed theological premise of infallibility before God work. This is a very serious charge and were it one of my own, I would be every bit as direct as I just was. Just because the church is viewed as mystically and infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost does not mean that it is exempt from God's wrath when it goes astray and refuses to see the problems it has allowed to creep in over the centuries.

Now this is not directed at you primarily, Jade, but you do seem to dodge some of these charges when they come up. I want to hear from you about whether you acknowledge any of these failings about your church or not? Or is it part of the faith that to do so is prohibited? As a catholic, how much can you criticize your leadership?

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-08-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-08-2003 22:33

Yes. I agree. Well put and a lot of your post has truth Bugs.

Yes. My church has big time human failings throughout history and even today.

I get upset all the time with a priest about this or that. I don't understand his logic sometimes. I am not suppose to criticize but pray for them & help them but I get very irritated and fustrated. But I must remember they are human first and make mistakes too.

But I believe you shouldn't judge the church as a whole on the shortcomings of a few. That is unfair.

Thats like saying since Jade Theresa is Catholic, lets blame her for the priest actions, like she commited the crime. She deserves to feel our disgust and hatred for a act done by one of her people. Lets vent out ourr anger at her and go stone her for it. Then we can feel better, since we ourselve are guilty of no crime. So please feel free to keep bringing the subject up so we can remind her of how bad she is because of who she associates with.

What if your mother was a prostitute or a thief? Should you be judged for her actions and looked upon as unworthy. Or if you were born illegimate and a bastard, shoud you be scarred for the rest of you life as an undesirable. Should you be judged as once a cheater, always a cheater? That wouldn't be fair. People expect the christian people to be perfect. They are not.

The church has not reached her perfect state because she is made up of a body of imperfected humans. We were all born falling short of the perfected state that God intended for us. So we are born wounded. Since we make up the chruch, the church is wounded and fails. This would include all christian churches. So this being said means she can strive for perfection with the help of Jesus Christ just like we humans are called to do.
I know we have discussed the scandal b-4 and it keeps coming up, but you have to remember it was a US Catholic scandal. Not a worldwide scandal. Should you judge the catholics in Spain, Yugoslavia, Mexico and Rome? It was a local scandal that hit and hurt all. It was a terrible crime and many hearts were heavy hurt because of it. But the church has a chance to redeem itself just like a killer on death row does.

The church has admitted her mistake and has issued many apologies.
Even the pope has issued apologies to the hurt victims even though he did not commit any scandal. What else do you want Catholics to do?

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-09-2003 02:25

First of all, the "scandal" as you call it (I think scandal is far too narrow-scoped to cover something of this nature...), happened all over the US. I wouldn't really call that "local".

Secondly, it happened over the course (that we are currently aware of) of more than 50 years.

Thirdly, the church - the people in charge, the people with authority - moved many of the pedophile scumbags who should have been sent to their deaths from town to town, church to church, victim to hapless victim.

These weren't the small, isolate, 'regrettable' incidents you seem to want to make them.

They were relatively widespread, over a long period of time, involving many people in the church heirarchy, and scarring for life thousands of innocent children.

The church tried for decades to simply sweep this under the carpet as if it never happened, meanwhile allowing it to continue happening.

Many of the preists are still priests!

But....the pope apologized. Oh. ok. That's better

You spoke of people needing to wake up and smell the coffee......?

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-09-2003 05:37

DL.

Its evident you harbored bias and prejudice against the people of the church even before the scandal. So nothing they do to make ammends would satisfy you, since you have such high standards and seem to be an unforgiving person. But then again the church doesn't have to be accountable to you for its actions. So go on and think the worst of the people of the church your whole life if it makes you feel good. I don' think the church faithful will loose any sleep if a few athiest can't see past forgiveness. If its of your opinion that the people of the whole church are responsible for the actions of a few and should be treated with contempt the rest their living days then your the one with the problem. Your not even a believer of God, so why have an opinion at all on the subject. If God can show mercy to these priest if they are truly sorry and repent, then thats all that matters.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-09-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-09-2003 06:42

I wasn't even born before the "scandal".

Hard to hold prejudice when you're not born yet

And quite frankly, if there were a god who would show mercy on those priests, I want no part of him. Your efforts to belittle the vast and horrid effect this "scandal" has had on so many children tells far more about you than the empty words you speak about the greatness of your faith and the glory of your religion.

Of course, once again, rather than address the point, you turn to insulting me and inferring things I've never alluded to from my post.

I never said all catholics are accountable for what happened. But you continue to delude your self that it was merely a small incident involving jsut a couple of priests, and you seem to think somehow that it was only a couple of recent incidents...

quote:
But then again the church doesn't have to be accountable to you for its actions



No, it most certainly does not.

But it most certainly *does* need to be accountable to the people who suffered because of its ineptness, its blind eyes, its calculated coverups, and its propagation of the circumstances that allowed priests to molest young children.

You have more bias and prejudice than I could possibly muster.
Please, for your own sake, take a REAL look at the situation for a change...and at least *accept* the truth before trying to defend it.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-09-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-09-2003 15:13

If a priest who molested a child were truly repentant then of course there is forgiveness and healing first from God and from the church. That is the way it should be because we are ALL in that boat of being guilty of sin.

HOWEVER, said priest should be defrocked and removed from ANY position of leadership in the church and should NEVER be allowed to be near children alone EVER again in his ENTIRE LIFE.

Why did the church not know this? This was a mistake of tremendous proportion. I think it actually goes beyond a mistake and consider it gross negligence. At worst I fear it had something to do with *protecting* itself from looking bad. That would mean that the church had lost it's way so badly that it forgot why it exists.

A very good Catholic friend of mine put it this way. The priests who did this not only hurt the body of these children but they *murdered* their souls. You have no idea how serious that is. It pains me to say this but a child that was killed would go straight to God but a child that has this done to him/her may never be able to get back to God because of all the damage.

I don't understand how these priests could be moved from parish to parish and allowed to do the same thing repeatedly.

This sort of thing is not limited to the Catholic church. There have been ministers in our churches who have molested kids and they have been dealt with accordingly. I think we are all outraged at the crime, but it's the remedy that has been misapplied in these cases and that I can see no excuse for.

. . : slicePuzzle

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-09-2003 15:18

And quite frankly, if there were a god who would show mercy on those priests, I want no part of him. Your efforts to belittle the vast and horrid effect this "scandal" has had on so many children tells far more about you than the empty words you speak about the greatness of your faith and the glory of your religion.

Yes, Yes, Yes. I am an empty horrid cold person with no feelings. I will surely suffer the pains of hell like these priest because I believe God is a forgiving God and is boundless in mercy. Better yet may all catholics be dammed to hell for their careless attitude. All the past popes too should be dammed to hell too along with all the people who commited sins against humanity in history. There are you satisifed?

Who appointed you judge and jury?

I hope you can forgive your own children if they do something bad.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-09-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-09-2003 16:09

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

At least you're consistent in *something* jade



GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-09-2003 20:03

I think what bothers me the most about talking with christians, Catholics in particular, is their indignant defense of their religion. Not because they shouldn't defend their religion, but because they defend it as though the issues never happened or weren't that big a deal. Admit that it is a big issue, understand that we can't/won't/don't judge all peoples based on the actions of the few. Defend the faith instead of attacking other people's perfectly logical and justified opinions.

Stop answering with questions. Stop answering with insults. Stop answering with convoluted logic that doesn't lead anywhere. Stop answering with assumptions. Just answer with the truth.

None of the rest of it gets us anywhere and perpetuates the belief that lots of christians are blinded to discussing things objectively. I don't want to believe that of you but you're leaving me little room for another option.



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-09-2003).]

Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 10-12-2003 04:34

Ok guys he said that theology is like the booster of the signal



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-12-2003 05:19

uh.....


and?

Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 10-15-2003 17:48

Well if the signal is not boosted, you do not recieve or recieve it garbaled correct? If a network cable goes beyond its distance and the signal drops off, then your not going to get the message on the other end. If a wireless network only has a radius of 2 miles and you live 3 miles away chances are your not going to connect, you may be able to see the network but not connect to it. In the same way if we don't obey God (theology) in the context of the Church He started, not Martian Luthor, not Josph Smith, not the Pope, the Church He started 2000 years ago, then we are not getting the signal entirely, maybe partially, but not entirely. That is the point.


Jade had it right in her first paragraph

quote:
I would have to say that one of the reasons christianity has splintered into thousands of sects is becasue they claim to have discovered their own way to christ which better suits their lifestyle. Usually they are pastor centered on what the opinion of the pastors are in regard to how they see the bible interpreted. Anyone can start a church. I see a lot these days in shopping centers like business to make money and most of the money are for the pastors pockets. I would think some are sincere. But a lot are for greed. If you have a charasmatic personality and have a way with words you can hook, line and sink anyone in like salesmen. Some people are too willing to be led good religious leadership. Its like selling salvation for a weekly tithe. Usually when the pastor fails, so does the church and in cases closes down.



Tons of people have started churches and claim that it goes all the way back to Christ, but the fact is that it does not. What people don't look at is the history of their particular church and if there are any gaps in it's history between Penticost (33 A.D.) and the date that their church started. For instance many denominations started at some time in the 1800's gee lets do the math here....1800-33 = that's a good 1767 of history missing. The true Church that Christ started would have a contnuity all the way back to 33 A.D. I mean you can't really believe that nothing happened in the Church for 1767 years can you?

Let me demonstrait:

http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.gif

From: http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html
(And oh yes read it, don't just skim, read, anything worth while takes a while...)



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011


[edit by Skaarjj: Linkifying the image...horizontal scroll bars make baby jesus cry]

[This message has been edited by Maskkkk (edited 10-15-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 11-01-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-15-2003 18:07

So...are you implying that only a church that has been around since 33 ad is valid?

In that case, everyone is shit-outta-luck. Even the catholics who claim to be the one true church...

And are you saying that because a church has been in existence for 2000 years, that it must therefore be true to the origianl message? Are you actually trying to claim that internal corruption, political interference, corporate intereference, changing world views, and the frailty of humankind wouldn't warp and twist that message?

And that if people wish to be truely christian, they need to find the oldest surviving "sect" available?

Forgive me if I seem stupified....but....

That is the most absurd concept I've heard yet.

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 10-15-2003 18:51

the earth is flat

Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 10-15-2003 23:23

Yes, and this is what the world would have to say about Christ and the Message of his Cross, look at what happened back then, they crusified him. So why would now be any diffrent? It's still the world, and it's still filled with relative values and relative truth. Of course the world would not accept absolute truth. And I didn't say that the rest of them were as you put it SOL. But wouldn't it make sense to go to the Church that Christ started. To say that it couldn't exist for 2000 years would be to say that God is completely wrong. For He said "I will be with you even unto the End of the World"

Have a little Faith DL....



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-15-2003 23:33

No, you didn't say they were SOL - I did.

Why? Because the catholic church didn't exist in 33ad....it didn't exist until a long time after that.

The catholic church is not the church that jesus started.

It is a very human institution, that has been through endless corruption and change caused mostly by it's overinvolvement in and infiltration by political issues and people's.

For a great chunk of it's history it was run far more by princes, bankers and politicians than by any religious or spiritual forces.

I can accept that a person would have faith in god.

I cannot accept that a person would call their blind following of a human organization "faith" of the same kind.

Jesus may very well still be "with us". But that doesn't mean that he has anything to do with what we humans have built and defined in our own manner...


To say that the church that is oldest must be the "true" one, and that more recent attempts to bring the church back to it's actaul origins are wrong simply because they didn't exist as early as the catholic church is just......extraordinarily arbitrary and irrelevent.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-15-2003).]

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 10-16-2003 02:03

well, DL-44, i wish more "christians" knew as much as you seem to know about christianity. i think the phrase "many are called, but few are chosen" should give us all a clue as to what "churchianity" is all about. anyone who has read the Bible with any earnestness at all will have noted how much of it is devoted to warning against "wolves in sheeps clothing". the sheep know the shepherds voice and follow where he leads. this all reminds me, in a hysterical sort of way, of the movie "Babe".
a smart pig, that one!

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 10-16-2003 02:26

oops-double post

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 10-16-2003).]

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-16-2003 09:49
quote:
The true Church that Christ started would have a contnuity all the way back to 33 A.D. I mean you can't really believe that nothing happened in the Church for 1767 years can you?



actually, from your little diagram it would appear that all those churches have a continuity back to around the same time, they simply diverge off the path that the orthodox church took. if the catholic church split from the orthodox church i'm curious what makes it the "true" church.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-22-2003 17:17

Actually Fig

Catholics don't recoginize the split of the orthodox churches. We are still in communion with them. They are in a temporary state of schism.
So we are still one even if they don't agree in the authority of Vicar of Christ. Where we split from them, we view it as the time they splintered, not us. Truth in its fullness, holy and apostolic is "catholic" which means universal. One of the things to think of why we have relics of christ which are his infant clothing, tunic, robe, burial shroud, cross, nails, crown of thorns, clothing of the virgin mary, remains of the first apostles, which includes the beheaded heads of some of the 12 apostles who were marytered. We have the body of St. Paul the Evangelist also. I feel Christ wouldn't entrust the articles of his legacy and mission with a church unless he himself guided it.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-22-2003 17:54

that makes an awfully large leap in logic and a very huge assumption that christ actually had anything to do with the the catholic church acquiring these objects, and then makes an even further leap in assumption that these articles are even remotely authentic.....

quote:
Where we split from them, we view it as the time they splintered, not us.



How very convenient and self-serving =)
I'm sure they view the situation in an equally silly manner...

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-22-2003 19:22

I would say they should be authentic. Why would they lie?
To make the hoax more believable? They are documented as
authentic. You think the church wouldn't use science to determine how old they are along with how they came to be in the possession of the church by historians?

Most certainly to believers they are sacred and tie us to the truth
of the gospel. I know the articles don't prove that he was the son of God, but with all the messages of the apostles and evangelist thur faith we believe Jesus was.

Well DL it may be silly to a non-believers how believers question what is or isn't true in belief of their faith, but to us its very serious stuff.
Think of the church established for us as part of a plan like any plan one would implement to achive a means. You have to perform the right steps or make the right decisions to fulfill a task or achieve a dream you may have. Take for instance a college degree. You have to meet academic standards, enroll and take certain classes required to achieve a certain degree or you will not get one. If you deviate from your required courses and take other classes that you don't need along the way, it will take you longer. Maybe you might get side tracked and decide on another kind of degee and it may take even longer. In the same way with God, God makes available to us certain stepping stones or ladders to climb to ascend the best way or easiest way like a divine plan. If we splinter off Gods divine plan and go another way but we are still looking for God its OK, but it will take us longer to reach the fullness of God.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-22-2003 20:26
quote:
I would say they should be authentic. Why would they lie?



Ahhh...yes, that's convincing!!

quote:
They are documented as
authentic.



Ok, now here we have incontravertable evidence!

quote:
You think the church wouldn't use science to determine how old they are along with how they came to be in the possession of the church by historians?



...and how old they are and how they came to be in the possession of the church proves......what exactly?

Again, let me say, I can understand faith in god, or in christ.
But translating that faith into blind acceptance of what the church heirarchy claims is true is a *far* different matter....

And once again, I am left wondering what point you're even trying to make...and trying to fathom what you think your typically vague and wandering statements contribute to that point...

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-23-2003 04:20
quote:
In the same way with God, God makes available to us certain stepping stones or ladders to climb to ascend the best way or easiest way like a divine plan



so, afterall it seems you DO need to do work to reach something as "GOD' I always thought that there were no steps to enlightment...but seems that you need to do shiiiiizzzz loads of works, ceremonies, steps, pathes, before you can say I am with god....

added: I always thought it was all about man and christ...but catholics seem to make up whole lotta bunch of stuff and put it between man and christ....


Just last friday we had a chapel in school and I was soo pissed off! some Jacka$$ came with huge poster and started pointing to everyone "LOOK there are 300,000 religeons that have not been touched by GOD" "He started pointing out to Islam, Budhism, Judaism and whole lot more" criticizing and judging religeon....

thats the whole proble with christians nowdays, they are like self proclaimed masters of universe who know it all.

I couldnt stand and left chapel right away....some a$$hole just comming and talking $hit about other religeons, how can you just go and judge them when you know NO $hit about them in first place..... That was so pathetic man i am pissed

I have no problem when person believies in whatever he wants, the problem is the majority of dickweeds walking around and talking $hit about others and claiming they are all THAT ENLIGHTED and CORRECT



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-23-2003).]

counterfeitbacon
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Vancouver, WA
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 10-23-2003 06:05

Ruski: You're ignorance pervades all your religion-oriented posts.

That guy represents 1 persons personal opinion. And, guess what: It make me mad too.

Really, if I wasn't sure that God was real, Jesus died for my sins, I would have to say that Christianity wouldn't be on the top of my list of religions to just "join for the hell of it."

Of course, I only represent one persons personal opinion as well.

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-23-2003 16:11
quote:
Most certainly to believers they are sacred and tie us to the truth of the gospel.

Well see. That's it exactly. It ties you to the truth of the gospel, not necessarily to the truth of God or Jesus. It's a matter of perspective, I imagine, but I find the intermediary step... unneccessary and yet a nother point for miscommunication and disaster. I mean, it's your soul (our souls) we're talking about, wouldn't you want the most direct line of truth instead of it coming through dozens of filters? I would think that filtered truth would be rather diluted and difficult to understand. That certainly seems to be the case nowadays.

Oh... and Maskkkkk. Could you shrink your image some? I'm at 1280x1024 and it's giving me a horiz scroller. Rather irritating.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-23-2003 21:51

CBF you have no clue whats going on in my life. I am surounded by hundreds of igrorant assholes who just critic other people if they are not christians...I have said it before, and am going to say it again.

I was CATHOLIC for about 10 years, then I was in CHRISTIAN school for another 3 years, I HAVE STUDIED bible ALOT, before I decided not to be christian....

I do post alot of quick replays where I am extremly pissed off and am unable to remain calm....

and I can't stand mojority christian ignorance about other believes.

I have never said that christians are wrong. I dont have NO problem with any faith...

But sometimes people like you just dont want to bother understanding what is happening in another persons life.

why things bother me so much....not your faith ...but people who fallow it and who hypocrite....



Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-23-2003 22:31

then state some coherent points and maybe someone CAN discuss with you and be able to understand where you're coming from. if you don't have time to post some constructive then don't post. if you can't remain calm and post because of something someone else says then you've got some serious other issues to deal with.

and i'm sorry, but if you've studied the bible you need to study a lot more. your posts relating to the bible in general are rather far off and don't show much knowledge of biblical history or theology, no offense intended.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-23-2003 23:46

just because I have negetive view on majority christians and I do not agree with them, I need to study bible more?


added: as I said I have nothing agains bible...its THE PEOPLE!
Believe it or not Fig, I know alot more than I can express it here. My writting skills are poor, I can way alot better express myself in conversation rather than writting.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-23-2003).]

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 10-24-2003 00:54

Ruski
i think i know where you are coming from - you are trying to find the truth for yourself but you are being confused by what you've been taught and what you see as reality(hypocrisy). if that is the case then all i can say is - way to go. too many people go to church and listen to what some man says what it all means and how it is. nine time out of ten or, more likely out of a hundred or a thousand, he is only repeating what he has been taught. and to many people take for granted that that is how it is. very few preachers i have heard ever take the time to go line by line, verse by verse and actually let God do the teaching. rather they spout some stories about this and that to illustrate and back up what they purport to be the truth of the matter.

bible study is good, up to a point. after that you have to rely on the guidance of the spirit. the spirit is available to all. and it was promised that the spirit would guide us to all truth.

counterfeitbacon
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Vancouver, WA
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 10-24-2003 03:30
quote:
CBF you have no clue whats going on in my life. I am surounded by hundreds of igrorant assholes who just critic other people if they are not christians...I have said it before, and am going to say it again.

That's very unfortuate. It most likely has to do with the area that you live in. Also, "born-again" Christians tend to have some extremely fundy tendancies. But, you should realize that it's silly to apply that idea of Christianity to (the majority) of Christians at the Asylum.

I was CATHOLIC for about 10 years, then I was in CHRISTIAN school for another 3 years, I HAVE STUDIED bible ALOT, before I decided not to be christian....

Well, I didn't know that. I'll take it into account in further...discussion.

I do post alot of quick replays where I am extremly pissed off and am unable to remain calm....

Well, why not try and calm down. Take some sedatives. Like the ones they use on elephants: Those should help

and I can't stand mojority christian ignorance about other believes.

Me neither

I have never said that christians are wrong. I dont have NO problem with any faith...

I'd agree

But sometimes people like you just dont want to bother understanding what is happening in another persons life.

How could I understand if I'd never been told in the first place. It's not like you've published some widely-read biography or anything. If you had, then I'd be able to understand whats going on in your life, and I'd be happy to take it into account when writing posts directed at you

why things bother me so much....not your faith ...but people who fallow it and who hypocrite....

You know, this bother a lot of people, including me



__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-24-2003 15:12
quote:
just because I have negetive view on majority christians and I do not agree with them, I need to study bible more?



I beleive Fig's point is that, you say you have studied the bible - yet a lot of the "facts" you spit out regarding the bible are very far from accurate.

It has nothing to do with yuour view of christians, but rather your misinformed outlook on the facts at hand.

I am certain that language is an issue here as well, and I don't envy you having to express yourself in something other than your native language...

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-24-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-24-2003 17:44

I sympathize with Ruski. It seems to me he feels that he has had or has a difficult
home life. Its difficult to see God in a negative environment and
maybe he feels let down by God. A lot of people see so
much of an ugly world they cannot fathom a God created it or
that God exist for them. Or why would there be so much hatred,
tryanny, oppression, unjustice, sickness, death, etc. I guess for
some its hard to find happiness, but sometimes I think we look
for happiness in the wrong places.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-24-2003 18:15
quote:
I guess for
some its hard to find happiness, but sometimes I think we look
for happiness in the wrong places.



I agree whole heartedly.

Some look to money...some to booze or drugs, so to social stature, sex, violence, and some to 'god'.

But the truth is, the only one that can truly make a person happy is themselves.

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 10-24-2003 18:20

DL would be correct, thanks for clarifying. and ruski i actually do sympathize with you because i see a lot of me in you. i was brought up similarly with regards to faith and had some similar views. it took me a while (post-college) till i was able to see a lot of true meaning in the bible that i'd always received in a somewhat filtered sort of way before, and that changed everything.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 10-24-2003 19:04

eh, thanks for understanding.

I do hope that by the time I go to college, everything can change.


Maskkkk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Willaimsport, PA, US of A the hole in the Ozone
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 10-30-2003 07:11

Here's a history lesson.



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 10-30-2003 11:08

Amen DL...well said!!

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-30-2003 16:07

mask - once again, I am left wondering what your post has to do with anything...

Yes, that article gives a little bit of basic history. But it says nothing that relates to the conversation at hand, or any of the questions aksed of you regarding your post.

It's all fine and good to get information from external sources, but if you're going to come in and claim something as bold and absurd as you did up there, it helps to have a little bit of personal reasoning and actual information to back it up with...



Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-31-2003 18:04

As far as I can tell, Maskkkk is simply stating he believes the Orthodox churches are the true church. Ok.

Jade thinks the RC is and I don't think there is such a thing as an unbroken line of succession from the earliest of saints. Not in an apostalic succession view anyways. I'm sure there is an unbroken line of believers and followers of Jesus Christ but not an intact organizational structure from then until now. I just don't see that supported historically.

DL said:

quote:
Some look to money...some to booze or drugs, so to social stature, sex, violence, and some to 'god'.

But the truth is, the only one that can truly make a person happy is themselves.

I would have to agree pretty much with this. Each individual is solely responsible and solely capable of determining their state of mind.

But happiness is a tricky thing to discuss in this context since I think we confuse it with Joy or inner peace. Let's define happy as "something good happens to you", like finding a $100 on the street corner. And let's define joy as that state of inner peace and contentment with everything regardless of the current happenstances.

I'm not sure if atheism, or any other philosophy/religion outside of Christ, can provide joy. I'm sure it can provide happiness to one degree or another. But it should be pointed out that there are those who look for happiness (remember the definitions) in religiousity. That is futile and I try to rail against those who do that every bit as much, if not more, than I do against those who reject God. But this falls into how I believe this all works and it would be very difficult to actually prove how much happiness or joy a person has, it's far too subjective. It really comes down to how each of us live our lives. I can only hope that sharing these views will help us all to better understand how it all really works.

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-31-2003 20:15

For the record, my statement used "happy" in the sense that you defined joy.

And of course, it is very much a religous concept that only religion can provide inner peace.

It is a very silly notion as well.

The religion is simply a means to an end. IMO, it is way of clouding things so that the path to true inner peace is either made longer or actually forgotten. Of course, that is not to say that there are not countless other ways in which that happens to a person, or that simply not being religious is an answer.

As I said, the only way to achieve this peace is to come to peace with yourself, and the only one that provide that for you is you. Not god, not christ, not the pope, not your dealer, your pimp, your accountant or your mommy.

Only you.

Even giving the benefit of the doubt and asuming that there is a god that exists according to the christian doctrine, in all hsi power and wisdom he could not grant a person contentment.

The trick to religion is in the believer coming to think that god is the only one that can give them such things, and then in coming to beleive that god forgives them, or that god loves them, or that god has chosen a path for them (or whatever it is that they need...) and so by proxy comging to beleive such things of themselves.

Much like a sugar pill curing a headache. It's real, and it works, because the human mind is capable of controlling a person's physical symptoms as well as it's spiritual, emotional and intellectual ones, but humans always think that they need someone or something else to fix things. The placebo satisfies that requirement, and then the mind does the rest behind your back

{{BTW - could someone with the ability *PLEASE* turn that image into a link? It is becoming a serious nuisance.}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-31-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-31-2003 22:31

DL

Most of your ideals are based on personal opinons either yours or someone elses regarding God/Religion. And everybody is allowed to an opinon. But thats all they are. The arguments you present are repetitions from anti-religious of days long past. Corruption, authority, vast holdings, political power, torture, etc.
Yet you have no idea what a deep faith in a God of love is all about. You have a deep resentment on the administrators of faith, but you have no compassion for the followers of faith. You have a mind set on what YOU think religion should be, but then you have never been really religious to be a judge of it. You don't understand the meaning of faith in God, but then you put faith in LOVE. A Love you would die for if need be. So like you related to me and I relate back to you. I think your not sure your an athiest. You doubt your athiesim.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-31-2003 23:35
quote:
Most of your ideals are based on personal opinons either yours or someone elses regarding God/Religion



How clever of yo uto notice.

So are yours.

So are everybody's

quote:
...are repetitions from anti-religious of days long past.



No. They are observations on the current state of things. Of course the past is also part of that - how could it not be?

quote:
you have no compassion for the followers of faith



Not so at all. Where do you draw this from?

quote:
but then you have never been really religious to be a judge of it



Yes, I have actually. I've explained that before.


quote:
You don't understand the meaning of faith in God, but then you put faith in LOVE



I certainly understand the meaning of faith in god. I simply find it ridiculous. Remember - that's my opinion....

Faith in love? Sure. Not blind faith dictated to me by a beauracracy...

quote:
I think your not sure your an athiest. You doubt your athiesim.



You seem to enjoy saying that, is if somehow claiming so will make it be.

Explain that. How do you draw such a conclusion? Simply because you can't grasp that I might not be your typical secular-scientist-atheist?

You, like most of the religious world, misinterpret what atheism is (and what it is not).



WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-01-2003 09:49

I find myself in agreement with DL here - I too, was a firm believer...before the war, that is. Afterwards, and after much soul-searching, I realized that I didn't 'need' religion to solve my inner problems, that it was more like a crutch, and was actually preventing me from doing so. Finally taking responsibility for my own actions, and taking my life into my own hands, was the solution for me.

Now that I don't 'need' religion for this, it is much easier to look at religion without bias...well, with less, perhaps. Certainly not through the glasses of Faith.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-01-2003 09:49

[Double post, darn it!]

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 11-01-2003).]

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 11-01-2003 19:11

well, i don't need religion, i need God. unfortunately the pursuit of that has been often interrupted and corrupted by religion or people doing things in the name of religion. for the most part christianity has little to do with the religious aspects and much more to do with the relational aspects of God.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-01-2003 23:46

Very well said, Fig. That is the kind of view that I can have a lot of respect for. I still disagree on some pretty fundamental issues of course...but I can respect that approach.

WS - what, you been gone so long you forgot how to work this thing?



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-01-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-02-2003 12:18

Very well put, Fig.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-07-2003 17:51

So, Jade -

You made a lot of rahter boisterous claims there. Do you have any plans of backing them up, maybe even addressing my points?

Just curious......



WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-07-2003 17:57

^ Has she ever?

*scratches head*

Can't seem to remember a time, when she did...

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 11-07-2003 18:46

So, Jade -
You made a lot of rahter boisterous claims there. Do you have any plans of backing them up, maybe even addressing my points?
Just curious......DL

^ Has she ever?
*scratches head*
Can't seem to remember a time, when she did...WB

What would happen if I went away for good? Who else could you
love to pick on? Don't worry, I like you too.
Since I make so many boisterous claims, how am I to know
which ones you are referring to. So please let me know which
ones I need to back up.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-07-2003 19:55
quote:
Who else could you
love to pick on?





Actually Jade, it looks like you were picking on me there. Something you do quite often as a matter of fact. Don't try to turn it around just because I actually challenge the baseless points you tend to make about me.

You made some very specific attacks and accusations which I addressed specifically in reply.

I am interested in your thoughts on those issues (if you look at the last few posts, it is very obvious which ones I refer to here), if you can lay down your martyr complex for a moment....

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 11-07-2003 22:55

Thats true. I enjoy picking on you. But you
leave yourself tempting to nibble. Are
you doing it on purpose?

I must admit I like playing the maryter too
on occasion. But I will address your points
as soon as I can. I am off for a camping
weekend so it will have to be next week.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 11-07-2003 23:04

Dear God, please send a HUGE ASS METEOR down the earth and kill all the living humans....

thanyouverymuch!

=)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-08-2003 17:19
quote:
I must admit I like playing the maryter too



Oh we're all quite aware of that Jade.

Problem is, playing the 'martyr' implies some sort of basis on which to do so....which so far I haven't seen. It also implies something a little more significant than the melodramatic 'you're all against me because I'm catholic' nonsense you usually pull out when you can't actually explain or answer the the questions or statements posed to you.

Lashing out with insults every time you feel you've backed into a corner is a sad way to spend your time, and a sad statement about what you call your "faith" (no, not the religion. I mean you).

But....whatever. I don't actually expect any sort of personal honesty in you, I don't expect you to be able to answer any of the questions or challenges I toss out. But I figure, what the hell - we're all here....the subject is out there....might as well throw out my 2 cents.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 11-12-2003 21:13

DL

You know.......I would never presume you would be dishonest with me. And I don't understand why you think I lie about what I post. But for the record, Chrisitanity is based on maryterdom since the death of Christ, he being the first maryter. So maryterdom is the Catholic concept. Die to self for love of others. Not so bad.

Anyway ......

Would you please bite a big piece of reality. Your the king of insults from day one. Somebody back me up here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of your ideals are based on personal opinons either yours or someone elses regarding God/Religion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How clever of yo uto notice.

So are yours.

So are everybody's


No this is not true. Belief in Christianity is not based on opinions. Its based on the word of Jesus Christ who is a true God and a true man. A true Christian gives into
total submission to the way of the Lord. And as the perfect church is the christ, the wounded church strives to perfect itself in Christ. This belief is not based on anyones opinion. Its scriptural and universally taught. In matters of faith, opinions like " Well I think, or it should be this way" in regard to doctrine or tradition just
don't matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...are repetitions from anti-religious of days long past.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. They are observations on the current state of things. Of course the past is also part of that - how could it not be?


Again, here you are guilty of judging a people instead of acts. The current state of things is ok. Catholics are still catholic. Church is still growing. All slanders, sins within, schisms, wars, disunity, scandal and dissidents will not be able to prevail against the Church(s) or bring it down. "The gates of hell will not prevail against the kindgom on earth" per Jesus to Peter.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you have no compassion for the followers of faith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not so at all. Where do you draw this from?

From your post views on the Catholic church, which are very obvious. If you deny this, then YOUR not being honest with yourself.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but then you have never been really religious to be a judge of it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I have actually. I've explained that before.

OK. I don't remember what you practiced when you were a believer in Christ. So enlighten me. What was the ultimate deterrant. What exactly turned you away from God. Pride? The real world? Rejection?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't understand the meaning of faith in God, but then you put faith in LOVE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I certainly understand the meaning of faith in god. I simply find it ridiculous. Remember - that's my opinion....

Faith in love? Sure. Not blind faith dictated to me by a beauracracy...


Like I said before there are billions of opinions about God out there, but God has no opinion about you. God loves you without barriers, without bias, without conciet. God loves the real you, even if you don't love God.

Beauracracy is another opinion you have given to what the church represents to you. It is no lie that the church throughout history has shaped civilizations and conqured in the name of Jesus Christ. And was and is still instrumental in social change for a better Christ centered world. The fall of communism in Poland and Russia was due to Pope John Paul the II. Is that a good thing to you? What about the role of Mother Theresa of Calcutta. She opened houses for the dying. She took off people from the ditches and roads in India and gave them a place to die with dignity. Because of her there are many houses for the poor to die with love, care and dignity. She is a monument to the faith. Did she do a good thing for herself and on her own. If you had asked her, she would say she saw the face of Jesus in every dying person. So she did it all for Jesus. A small tiny woman made a hugh monumental difference. See how the church works in todays world. There are injustices happening all over the world, and the Catholic church has been and is there and she does not boast on what she has accomplished to the world in regard to social justice.

To sum it all up:

There are two great powerful instutitions in the world today who without them we would not have a world. They are:

The Catholic Church and the United States of America.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your not sure your an athiest. You doubt your athiesim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You seem to enjoy saying that, is if somehow claiming so will make it be.

Explain that. How do you draw such a conclusion? Simply because you can't grasp that I might not be your typical secular-scientist-atheist?

You, like most of the religious world, misinterpret what atheism is (and what it is not).


From what I can gather in thought about athiest. Now, I am not talking about you as a person, but most athiest in general are kinda arrogant & think they are smarter than most or have some hidden agenda against believers. Most are intellectuals who seem to feel they found the key to reasoning God out of existance. For the most part though its being able to do what they want without being accountable to anyone. Just to themselves. Athiest do believe in a God. Its just that the God they believe in is themselves.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-12-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-12-2003 22:17
quote:
I don't understand why you think I lie about what I post



I don't. I said you're not honest with yourself.

quote:
Your the king of insults from day one



Nope. You simply take any challenge to your statements as an insult. That's your problem - not mine.

quote:
Its based on the word of Jesus Christ who is a true God and a true man.....Its scriptural and universally taught



Yes, and that would be an opinion.
How widely held an opinion is has no bearing on its state of being an opinion.

quote:
The current state of things is ok



Are you insane? Or perhaps blind....deaf maybe? Once again, you pull out cliche, dogma, and scripture to blindly defend a situation rather than actually looking at the situation itself.

quote:
From your post views on the Catholic church, which are very obvious.



Yes, I have a very negative view of the catholic church. How does this have anything to do with your presumption in ragard to my level of compassion for individuals?

quote:
What exactly turned you away from God. Pride? The real world? Rejection?



The pure falshood, contradictions, hypocrasy, and arrogance of the church turned me away from the church. I wasn't turned away from god, because there is no god.

quote:
The fall of communism in Poland and Russia was due to Pope John Paul the II



WHOA! I think that is just a bit of an overstatement there Jade!!

quote:
What about the role of Mother Theresa of Calcutta ... Did she do a good thing for herself and on her own.(?)



Yes, she certainly did. Mother Theresa played an amazing role world wide and should be remembered forever for the things she accomplished and the selfless work she did for so many.

quote:
A small tiny woman made a hugh monumental difference.



Yep. She did. Not the catholic church. Yes, she was a catholic. That is irrelevent to me. She did these things - as you said yourself - "on her own". 1 out of billions that made such an impact....am I supposed to be wowed by the greatness of the church because of that...?

quote:
without them we would not have a world. They are:

The Catholic Church and the United States of America.



Once again I have to ask.....are you insane??

As far as atheism is concerned - once again, you are doing two things: judging me based on your perceptions of other people who claim to be atheists, and assuming that being an atheist means having a specific doctrine of belief. It most certainly does not. It means I don't beleive in god(s). Period.



outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 11-12-2003 23:12

I enjoy following along but, for the sake of download time and bandwidth, I hope you all will carry on this conversation in Part 2.


ed: breaking the link loop

Emp edit: Adding link to new thread]

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 11-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 11-13-2003).]

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