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WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 12-11-2003 12:34

This site really does leave me speechless - A Christian Site

I thought stuff like this had died out...apparently not. This, in particular, really just stretches all logic - D&D and the Christian.

It also gives Wicca a blackeye, throws down on Islam, and takes shots at Catholics...

Do people actually believe stuff like this?

cfb
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Vancouver, WA
Insane since: Nov 2003

posted posted 12-11-2003 12:42

Well obviously some people do.
I find the site absolutely appauling as well.
It's been posted several time before as well.

Basically what he does is take his opinion and say that it is absolute.
IT's pathetic.


"I make and I sell soap."

cfb
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Vancouver, WA
Insane since: Nov 2003

posted posted 12-11-2003 12:59

This is funny:





And this:



"I make and I sell soap."

[This message has been edited by cfb (edited 12-11-2003).]

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 12-11-2003 13:52

Yep it is being discussed here:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/001081.html

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 12-11-2003 13:53

Oh come on, WS--don't tell me that you're just discovering this site now... see what you've been missing all these years?



Jack Chick: Entertainment for the Masses


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 12-11-2003 14:16

Ahhh...I see. Then all is well...you can all go back to your cells...really. Ummm...why are you all standing around?

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 12-11-2003 18:52

We are, ahhh....standing around, waiting for your permission to leave, now that we
have it, we will see you later. I for one am going back to my cell and taking my
meds, and taking a long nap.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-11-2003).]

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 12-12-2003 23:55

I prescribe a good dose of Religion Detoxification for y'all.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Rooster
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: the uterus
Insane since: Nov 2002

posted posted 12-13-2003 00:27

... ... ... What am I, "Witnessing"?

[edit]I should say, what are they, "Witnessing"?[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 12-13-2003).]

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 12-13-2003 01:04

Some let me get this right - he sells stuff to you so you can give it to other people or leave it lying around?

Thats a great money making idea!!!

~runs off to make fortune~

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-13-2003 01:36

I, who once called myself a Wiccan and play D&D avidly (or used to when I had a party to DM) have given this man $3.40 of my money because Dark Dungeons is so damn hilarious. Every D&D player I know has one because it's just as funny as it gets. The scary thing is... that's not the worst one of them all. And he is the "saviour" that brings all of these people back to God (at least in dark dungeons he is). I'm glad I moved... now he doesn't know where I am.

SPyX
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: College Station, TX
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 12-13-2003 10:50

There is actually some decent content on that site. I only glanced for a moment but I saw truth in stuff like on the NIV and catholocism. Unfortunately, as is usual, this person manages to undermine what truth he has to share by including ridiculous arguments (i.e. D&D) and elevating himself above the message.

bodhi23
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Greensboro, NC USA
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 12-16-2003 21:41

Ok - here's a total aside...

*does a double take...*
GD - you once called yourself Wiccan? Am I to take it that you no longer practice? This must be a recent occurence... Tell me more! If not here, drop me an email...




Cell 617

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 12-17-2003 23:09

I wish GD would respond. You usually open up really well and like to share with the asylum. Inquiring minds want to know if there was some kind of metamorphosis.

Oh well, maybe not. I don't want to pull your arm.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 12-18-2003 00:24

Get email alerts when the rapture arrives:
www.raptureletters.com

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-18-2003 02:52

Yes, I once called myself a Wiccan. I never really practiced it though. I've come to the understanding (at least for myself) that religion is rather unimportant. They all say the same thing and attempt to do the same thing. Religion is only the filter for theology. Religion is the engine to control people, keep them from changing and understanding things as they relate to today. I have looked into many many religions and found all of them lacking something. I couldn't put my finger on what it was until recently. There aren't any religions that are right. Not one. All of them are somebody elses interpretations of how they think things could have been or should be, interpretations of what makes people be better people.

Faith is a matter of opinion, yours or someone elses doesn't make a difference. I choose to have faith in myself. Faith that I am doing my best to get along in society. Faith that people are basically programmed to make society work. Instinctively, we all know what is accepted and what isn't in society. NOTE: I didn't say what is right or wrong. This shift in my thinking has helped me understand why I don't believe in right or wrong. Things are socially acceptable or they aren't. That acceptance changes as society changes. I am now flexible, free to change my views along with society as I wish, or not to. I don't feel obligated to do anything more than LOOK at what the changes coming around the bend are and react to them as I see myself to be; a decent person. Rather than react to things according to outdated or regurgitated reasons I have the impetus to research things on my own and learn about them. I don't dissappoint anyone or feel I'm betraying my honor in what I have said I am. I just AM, I'm not a certain something (Xian, Wiccan, Eckankar), it's just me.

As for the answers that everyone seeks? I don't need to know the answers. I've found that I can be a very good person without knowing the answers to these questions. The questions drive me. I have found answers that are acceptable to me. For me, that is all that matters. You (as in Everyone) has found their answers. For (pardon me but) Y'all, that is all that matters. I am happy that they have found what they need. I have found what I need, it turns out to be less of what I thought I needed. I have found my ... my Way... within myself. I find that I am able to more clearly think about things without a cloud of dogma staring me in the face, telling me what to believe even if I disagree with it. So now I just believe what I want. I can change my mind when I want and I have the freedom to be taught by anyone and everyone without feeling the need to defend or convert. I can pick and choose which bits make sense and which don't. I can form an amalgamation of the "good ideas" and skip all the pointless crap. I don't need it. Some do. Yay for all of us.

This is less a metamorphosis than an understanding of myself. This is who I am. I feel I can say this wth a bit more accuracy now. I spoke once of needing to be more balanced before being able to move on to other things. This... understanding of myself is one of those steps. I am more like I was before and yet less so. That made no sense. I am as I always was before, I just know that's the way I should be. Knowing this, changes everything for me. I imagine it is akin to how Xians feel when they feel the touch of God upon their hearts. I am comforted by this understanding that I have found my Way. I dunno. I don't feel I'm portraying this very well. I don't know if I CAN portray it very well. I've reached a significant point in a personal journey and... it just might not make sense to anyone but me. =)

Oh and Jade... it's 'Twist your arm.' (coerce someone into something, usually used in a joking context) & 'Pull your leg' (enact a prank or joke on someone) Just thought I'd clarify.

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 12-18-2003).]

bodhi23
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Greensboro, NC USA
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 12-18-2003 14:20

Grythus, that's exactly the same conclusion I came to about 5 years ago. I was curious how things happened for you, thanks for sharing. I knew there was a reason I like you...



Cell 617

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 12-18-2003 15:58


GD

Thanks for sharing and the correction too.(twist/turn) And I like you anyway even if we don't agree on faith matters.

I am glad your finding your way. And hope you remain happy.

During the day I find myself talking to God and asking him for so much, like help me with this or that, that I finish my project or catch up my desk or get along with co-workers or at home with my family life. I know I do it out of habit, but I am still conversing with God and it gives me hope that he is listening.
How many times do I say "God help me". To me this is prayer.

So I was wondering, if the faith you have is in you only, do you alone give yourself hope. How does one go about trusting in his own judgement? I could see where you could have conversations with yourself on should I or can I and yes I can. So that must mean prayer is non-existant. Well I quess you could see it as a psychological thing too. I know I dwell in the spiritual world often and could be so wrapped in it I don't see the clear picture of the secular world. I just want to understand. I just can't see separating myself from the God of my fathers. It would be unthinkable.

I am off for the Christmas holidays, so for all have a special Christmas time. I know not all celebrate the birth of the savior Christ, but have time off, so take care.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 12-18-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 12-18-2003 16:09

GD, I think you put that very well and thanks very much for sharing that. I think you are probably right about your realization being similar to how other people of faith feel at a certain point of their journeys.

I applaud you for actually thinking about the things society, religion, parents, etc expect you to accept. I believe it is our duty to judge the merits of all of these things and accepting them blindly is a very dangerous practice.

But I would like to explore this a bit further in this way. I have no doubt about your comfort in your current understanding of who you are. But do you think there is such a thing as objective reality? In other words, if I am just as comfortable as you are and yet objective reality exists, then we can be totally wrong in what we have placed our faith in.

Does this matter? Or is it enough to simply choose what feels good and live out our physical lives to see what is on the other side without too much worry about the accuracy of our beliefs? What if some beliefs really are more accurate than others? Why wouldn't we want to find the better ones or better one?

And one more challenge, when you say "as I see myself to be; a decent person", if there is no right and wrong how can this have any meaning? An extreme example is to ask how a mass murderer be distinguished from a mother Teresa or is it just a matter of opinion?

. . : slicePuzzle

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-18-2003 17:13
quote:
And one more challenge, when you say "as I see myself to be; a decent person", if there is no right and wrong how can this have any meaning? An extreme example is to ask how a mass murderer be distinguished from a mother Teresa or is it just a matter of opinion?


Yeah, as I re-read my post there were a couple of phrases that belie my disbelief of right/wrong - good/evil. It really just a language barrier than anything else. We were taught as children what words to write to mean certain things, I just don't find the words equivilent with what I see around me. I am an acceptable person might be the more... philosophical way of putting it.

As to your extreme example... it is a matter of societal opinion, not mine or yours or John's down the street (Except collectively). We as a society of people working together to make life work, accept certain things and denounce others. If society was anarchical and everything was kill or be killed your mass murder might well be a hero as Teresa is in today's world. Thankfully we don't live in a place like I have just described. It's all a matter of perspective. It is obvious in the perspective of today's society that Mother Teresa is a wonderful person who lives for others and followed her faith with admirable determination. It is equally obvious that a mass murderer deserve the derision of the people and punishment of the laws he has broken.

quote:
But do you think there is such a thing as objective reality? In other words, if I am just as comfortable as you are and yet objective reality exists, then we can be totally wrong in what we have placed our faith in.

Exactly. We can both be wrong in what we have faith in. In what we have defined (or had defined for us) to have faith in. Is the means to achieve the end result that important? Another side of this, we could both be correct in our faiths. Mine for me and yours for you. They don't have to be in conflict and they don't have to be the same to agree.

quote:
Does this matter? Or is it enough to simply choose what feels good and live out our physical lives to see what is on the other side without too much worry about the accuracy of our beliefs? What if some beliefs really are more accurate than others? Why wouldn't we want to find the better ones or better one?

It is quite enough to live our lives to see what is on the other side. It's all we can do regardless of our beliefs. The only accuracy of belief I am concerned in is that you are pointed in the direction your faith sends you. We're all pointed at the same mark, I don't care how you get there so long as you can do it happily without stepping on everyone elses toes to do it. This isn't necessarily a 'feel good' approach to life. It's just a step back to see how things stand. See how things really are and make sure that I have addressed these new or changed things in what I believe.

Beliefs are matters of opinion. No one can prove or disprove anything. What point is there in assuming someone is incorrect when you could be incorrect yourself? What point is there in assuming you are correct in your beliefs if you don't know? Without some method of comparison (i.e. fact) all opinions/beliefs are equally valid. My point is that you don't NEED to know. You've found what makes you feel good (to put your words to it). The questions that we discuss here have driven you to your faith in chrstianity. It points you in the correct direction and you watch things in society so that your beliefs and faith can intermesh with what is going on in the world. The least you do is address the issue for yourself. I am doing no less. I just see no need for words or faces or rules or Gods to guide me to where I know I want to be. No, I am not denouncing deity(ies). I am merely pointing out that who/what they are is believable in every context, not just one. They could be real, they could be made up... the IDEA is the part that guides us. Proof is not the issue. I used to think it was... it isn't. You can't prove to me this one is real and you can't prove to me that that one isn't, why shouldn't I believe in the possibility of all of them, and on my own terms no less?

It almost comes down to, "Shut the hell up and get along!" This, of course, is directed at no one but it seems to be the current feeling I have about these debates on religion. Everyone argues their side and won't relent to anything but the possibilty that another religion must be equally valid in order for theirs to be valid. If another religion might be equally valid why do you follow the one you do? Because it appeals to you. Does that not make it the 'better' one... for you? You can accept the possibility of another religion's accuracy, if you will, because it doesn't really conflict with anything your religion tells you. Believe what you want to believe. We're all heading the same direction some of us are just reading different signs.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 12-18-2003 17:46

The key point then is this statement, "If another religion might be equally valid why do you follow the one you do?".

All religions are not created equal, IMO. Example, Mormons teach that the native Americans are descendants of one of the tribes of Israel. They teach that Joseph Smith found the golden tablets and translated them to the Book of Mormon. To date, not a single archaeological shred of evidence has been found to support anything claimed by that religion. In contrast, you will find mountains of evidence supporting some other major religions and their roots in different parts of the world.

I am simply not willing to say that *no* discernments/judgements can be made as soon as we slap the word religion onto something.

But let me be clear that I totally agree with you that we should be free to choose our paths and wherever possible we should all try to "get along" and tolerate each other's beliefs. I just don't want us to give up on searching for accuracy as long as there are tools to further that goal.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 12-18-2003).]

MW
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: 48°00ŽN 7°51ŽE
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 12-18-2003 18:16
quote:
In contrast, you will find mountains of evidence supporting some other major religions and their roots in different parts of the world.



Hmm, but this evidence can only prove
(1) that the religion already existed at a certain time, or
(2) that a certain event has actually happened.

Both do not say anything about the validity of a religion.

If (1) was an argument, then how can you consider christianity more "real" than Judaism, or the beliefs of the ancient Egypts, Greeks, Romans? Why schould christianity be more valid than some older religions and at the same time more valid than all younger religions?

(2) Could be an argument if there was scientific proof for anything out of the ordinary - It's nice if you can prove that Jesus actually existed and was crucified, or if you can prove that Mohammed travelled from Mekka to Medina in 622 - But how does it prove that Jesus was the son of God, or that Mohammed was a real prophet?

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 12-18-2003 18:57

MW, my words specifically addressed whether or not *ANY* judgements can be made between *ANY* religions. If a religion has NO evidence to support its roots and another does, then we have some facts from which to work.

You are perfectly correct in pointing out that scientific evidence only takes you so far in making these distinctions between faiths. I think my point still holds given this clarification, would you agree?

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 12-18-2003).]

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 12-18-2003 20:42

Oh... I agree whole heartedly, Bugs, at least to a point. Proof, as I said, isn't the issue for me anymore. It's the IDEA that I'm after. It's the IDEA that moves people. Hence picking and choosing the IDEAS that make sense and disregarding the ones that don't or are redundant with societies views. In a way... I'm connecting all religions to one another by the IDEAS and not discounting anything unless it's obviously ridiculous or primarily against promoting all people instead of a chosen people.

So yes, there are a multitude of varying degrees of verifiability for religions everywhere and a plethora of religions that are baseless. HOWEVER, some of these baseless religions have very, very fitting ideas about society (Not that Mormon's are one of them but, I digress). I refuse to ignore these ideas that can further societies gains just because the religion is baseless. So what if it's baseless? Doesn't change the quality of the idea, does it?

By changing the paradigm of how I think about things in society I have by no means completed my search for truth. The questions still drive me. If they can be answered, I will listen. Until they can be answered I have a hard time justifying any one thing or group as better than something or someone else. I educate myself and continue to learn about other beliefs and religions, I just don't follow them. If you believed the things you do now but only considered yourself christian, not one of the sects of christianity, have you lost or gained anything? If then you decided to follow a specific sect of christianity but didn't alter your views that didn't quite mesh with that particular sect... have you lost or gained anything? Has changing what you call yourself, changed anything real? I don't think it has. You are Christian because you believe in Christ and God the Father and the holy spirit (amongst other things). You are not Christian because you are Lutheran, or Catholic, or any number of other sects. It's just a title. The titles we give ourselves are like armor. With a title you are girt for battle. With just the belief you are girt for free communication and learning. If people could see past all of the armor we tend to wear, we'd see that we are much more the same then we are different.

Heh... this is just getting turned into a rant. In any case. All "religions" provide ideas for me to filter through and apply to my life. I won't ignore a fitting idea just because I think the application of that idea by the religion it came from is ridiculous.



[edit]clarification and typos[/edit]

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 12-18-2003).]

bodhi23
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Greensboro, NC USA
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 12-19-2003 22:46

The most wonderful remark I have ever heard about this came from the movie "Dogma".
"Have ideas, not beliefs. You can change an idea."

In my quest for spiritual knowledge, i followed a similar path as Grythus - and, as I said above, came to the same conclusion.

If you strip away the dogma of each religious system, they almost all tell you the same things... Be nice to other people, believe in a higher power, respect your elders... That's all one really needs to know in life. The rest is extra. Icing on the cake, if you must.
When I was younger, and we used to go to youth conferences and things, they used to tell us, "Listen like a sieve". A sieve keeps the useful part, and releases what is not useful. Basically, you retain what is meaningful to you, but let what is not meaningful go. There is a lot in most religious systems that is meaningful to me, but there is an awful lot that I just can't use. If I can't buy into an entire religious system, there's no use in me practicing it. After all the research and reading I've done on religious systems around the world, I haven't come across one system that I could totally buy into. They all have a lot of good to offer, but no one in particular is the one "way" for me.
I don't see anything wrong with this perspective. Granted, folks who have "bought into" a religious system, might think I have a problem - but I don't see it that way. Religious freedom should also include the freedom not to believe in any one specific religion...
(Aside: I use "bought into" loosely... no offense intended, please read the remark within its context...)

Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 01-08-2004 11:10

God must be very sad..

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 01-08-2004 15:38

Why on earth would you think that, Xpirex?

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-08-2004 18:07

If there were a god, and if that god cared enough to be sad or happy at the condition of humanity, sadness would have over come him several thousand years ago, at least....

You always make it sound as if humankind has suddenly taken a turn for the worse xpi....

You need to realize that the worst human traits that you see today have always existed, as have the best traits you will see.

The balance throughout all of history has been precarious at best, and very often there has been a very decided lean towards the worst of traits.

I think there are vast examples in history that we can look back and say "yes, the world is better now then it was then..."



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