Topic awaiting preservation: Taking liberties ][

Sorry I should have done this a while ago (117 posts is over the practical limit).

Old thread:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000998.html

Anyway whats rattling my cage today?

Bush administration to recruit 1 in 24 Americans as spies:

quote:

---

The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity".

---

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html

I think its time everyone re-read 1984 (and added twent years to Orwell's estimate).

Bugs: In response to you previous post I'm not sure how he went over in the rest of Europe but Reagan was quite accepted over here but then again that was when we'd voted Thatcher in so we couldn't exactly gain the moral high ground. I think the right liked him because he liked us and the left weren't overly outraged because they considered him a mental incompetent. As far as people in the UK are concerned (although some might consider him a mental incompetent) Bush is viewed in a far more sinister light.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Hrm... spy... when I was a kid, I always wanted... no, nevermind.... it's a secret. Shhhhh!

Errr..., this sucks. I think its time to tape up the Emperors keyboard and sedate him with thorazine so that he can only shuffle through the halls and mutter incoherently..., to HIMSELF!

I hate being informed of ne'erdowellings going on behind the scenes, but not behind the scenes enough to claim plausible deniability.

quote:

---

Historically, informant systems have been the tools of non-democratic states. According to a 1992 report by Harvard University's Project on Justice, the accuracy of informant reports is problematic, with some informants having embellished the truth, and others suspected of having fabricated their reports.

---

Sucks...

quote:

---

The Patriot Act already provides for a person's home to be searched without that person being informed that a search was ever performed, or of any surveillance devices that were implanted.

---

Sucks more...,

Unless someone can refute these mad ramblings of our resident information minister, I may not be able to vote for this administration come november.


This thread is not very comical...

[action] pokes Emp in the eye, and laughs like a maniac[/action]
There..., that's better.

______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 01-16-2004).]

Aye Emps, very scary stuff when looked at from that viewpoint. It is quite biased though. See the author info at end of article.

In any case, I am very concerned about the Patriot Act. In theory it's great, in practice, there is always corruption.

What are the limits to being a suspected terrorist? I mean, if Big Brother caught me with a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook, does that make me a suspected terrorist? Hmm, but wouldn't that be discrimination against my personal reading choices as a citizen in a so-called free country? Wouldn't any normal everyday criminal also be performing terroristic acts in the crimes they commit? Does this mean they now have no rights either. Anyone commiting any crime can be considered a terrorist to one extent or another, or at least you can bend it there somehow. Interesting predicament, lots of questions, and plenty of room for abuse. Makes you really look forward to the future.

Although my positition on the war stands, I am liking this administration less and less by the day.

Ramasax: Oh I'm sure its biased but show me the other side of the coin on TIPS (its one of the reasons I post this stuff here).

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

To be quite honest, however biased the article is, I don't think there is another side of the coin. There really can't be, can there? To me it goes against everything America is supposed to stand for. Neighbors spying on neighbors is wrong, and will only overload the system with bogus reports from paranoid people and in essence only harm the war on terrorism. Sounds like cold war paranoia all over again.

Here is an interesting read, abeit old. Actually every link I was able to dig up on the subject was circa 2002. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/8/11/155250.shtml

This artlicle talks about how TIPS was replaced by VIPS (Volunteers in Police Service).

quote:

---

Gone are snoops from the Post Office and utility companies, but still on board are truckers, dockworkers and bus drivers ? volunteers monitoring activity in public rather than private places like homes.

---

I can live with that.

Ramasax

[This message has been edited by Ramasax (edited 01-17-2004).]

quote:

---

By Ritt Goldstein
July 15 2002

---

Nobody noticed the date?

No, you're the first.

Yay!

"The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." - L. Ron Hubbard, PTS III & Founder of the Church of Scientology.

I think Ramasex got there first - or at least I didn't check the dates until after he posted

Anyway onwards - a Canadian was arrested and sent by the US to Syria for torture before being released without explanation and he is planning on suing Ashcroft:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040121.warar0121/BNStory/National/

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Sent to Syria "for" torture? Like that was the initial intention? That article is very skimpy on the details. How can a Canadian citizen be deported to a country other than Canada? I'm confused.

[edit] Ah, I see more now.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/dec2003/arar-d04.shtml

quote:

---

The next day Ashcroft told reporters that prior to transferring Arar to Syria via Jordan, the US had obtained assurances from the Syrian government that Arar would not be mistreated.

---

Now that has to be one of the biggest piles of crap I've ever heard. I doubt that was an issue at all when he was sent over.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/arar_statement.html
This has a lot more details of what happened according to Arar himself. These kinds of incidents need to be investigated and brought to light so that people don't think the GWOT is a cake walk. If this is a case of mistaken identity, it is 1) inevitable on occasion and 2) a blight on the effort and needs review.

[/edit]

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-22-2004).]

Hmm... but it's not like there aren't Canadians and Americans who haven't vacationed in Afghanistan in certain resort camps.

quote:

---

Jailed Canadian indicted in U.S. probe of Al Qaeda

By Cam Simpson
Washington Bureau
Published January 22, 2004

WASHINGTON -- A 30-year-old Canadian living in Minneapolis was accused by federal prosecutors Wednesday of aiding Al Qaeda, although a one-page indictment against him offers no details about his alleged support of the terrorist network.

Mohammed Abdullah Warsame spent an unspecified amount of time at a training camp in Afghanistan during 2000 and 2001, according to a separate affidavit filed in the case by a New York City police detective working on a federal terrorism task force.

The affidavit did not say whether Warsame was in the camp before or after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, what he did in the camp or what, if any, ties he maintained with Osama bin Laden's network once he was back in the U.S.

But the affidavit does allege Warsame was at the camp at the same time bin Laden made at least an appearance there.

The Justice Department provided no details about Warsame's alleged activities, but Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft hailed the one-count indictment in a news release, calling the case a "grim reminder" that Al Qaeda remains a threat.

Warsame is charged with providing material support to Al Qaeda after being jailed in New York for more than a month as a material witness. Prosecutors are allowed to arrest someone under the material-witness statute if they believe the person can provide important information in a criminal investigation.

Warsame was indicted by a Minnesota grand jury, but remained jailed in New York late Wednesday. It was unclear when he would be transferred.

Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune

---

I posted the article because the paper made me register. I hope no one minds... here's the link for those interested in seeing the original:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0401220306jan22,1,4874890.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

quote:

---

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/arar_statement.html

---

This is nuts... What law allows US Law enforcement to send people to other countries for 'questioning'?

______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Bugs:

quote:

---

I posted the article because the paper made me register. I hope no one minds...

---

Its "fair use" as far as I can tell.

quote:

---

Sent to Syria "for" torture? Like that was the initial intention?

---

I'm sure I've posted at least once before about the fact that people are being sent to at least 3 different countries for "more intensive questioning" as it isn't allowed in the US.

Does the fact that someone has said they were in these camps (I don't see the mention of such things as evidence in that article) sufficient to warrant him being sent for torture?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

The article I posted does not speak to Arar's case. I was just pointing out that there are people on this continent who have trained in these camps and we can't take that lightly.

quote:

---

Does the fact that someone has said they were in these camps (I don't see the mention of such things as evidence in that article) sufficient to warrant him being sent for torture?

---

No, not necessarily.

not necessarily ???

quote:

---

I was just pointing out that there are people on this continent who have trained in these camps and we can't take that lightly.

---

Yeah, who could have any doubts when confronted whith such hard evidence:

quote:

---

[...]a one-page indictment against him offers no details about his alleged support of the terrorist network.[...]
The affidavit did not say whether Warsame was in the camp before or after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001[...]
But the affidavit does allege Warsame was at the camp at the same time bin Laden made at least an appearance there.[...]
The Justice Department provided no details about Warsame's alleged activities[...]

---

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp /cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1074726614045&call_pageid=968332188492

quote:

---

OTTAWA?The RCMP launched a massive and highly unusual search of the home and office of an Ottawa reporter yesterday in a bid to find leaked material in the Maher Arar case.

---

[This message has been edited by MW (edited 01-22-2004).]

MW, are you saying that there are no circumstances whatsoever that would justify deporting someone to Syria? I think it depends on the situation and the facts of this case are not easily ascertained so I don't know if it was justified or not.

. . : slicePuzzle

quote:

---

MW, are you saying that there are no circumstances whatsoever that would justify deporting someone to Syria? I think it depends on the situation and the facts of this case are not easily ascertained so I don't know if it was justified or not.

---

It's not about "deporting someone to Syria". It's about torture. If it wasn`t they would have deported him to Canada. Would you like to hear the screams of alleged terrorists when walking by your local police station? Should my word that you are a terrorist be enough to have you detained without trial and tortured?

I for one think that this is a line which a civilized society should never cross. And having it done in another country to prevent getting your own hands dirty is even worse.

Yes, but you are assuming he was sent to Syria for the express purpose of having him tortured. This is different than sending him there for other reasons knowing he would most likely be tortured. Besides, you don't know what the authorities knew when they sent him away. Sure, this may have been a terrible mistake but it is also quite possible he was involved with the terrorist network.

Of course he was sent to be tortured... Why else do you think he would be sent?

[edit]
There are NO circumstances whatsoever that would justify torturing an innocent man. And, here in America, ALL are presumed innocent until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt!
[/edit]
______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 01-23-2004).]

quote:

---

And, here in America, ALL are presumed innocent until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt!

---

Well, incase you haven't been paying attention to the news lately, that's not always the case anymore...

Bugs:

quote:

---

Yes, but you are assuming he was sent to Syria for the express purpose of having him tortured. This is different than sending him there for other reasons knowing he would most likely be tortured.

---

I can't see any difference - here we won't send an Asylum Seeker back to their own country if there is the chance that they will be tortured, imprisoned or killed.

Why do you think he was sent to Syria? He isn't the first person to be sent there (or the other countries which have a more relaxed attitude to beating the truth out of people) - do you think that somehow the authorities didn't know that they were sending their prisoners to countries that torture people? How suprised were they when they get the information back they were looking for? They aren't sending them to the UK or Sweden for extra questioning.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

I'm not saying they didn't know he would be tortured, just the opposite. I think they did know that and that is why I thought them denying it was a load of parrot droppings. I don't know why they would send him to Syria of all places. If we wanted him torttured we could have just sent him to France.

Of course, we wouldn't send one of our members for torture, we're not facing the same kind of threat.

I'm not even condoning this action, I'm just not going to assume he was sent there expressly for torture until I get more information.

. . : slicePuzzle

U.S. cited acquaintances in deporting Arar

Here's some more info on why he was deported. It's still not real clear though.

I'm moving what I wrote here to the tut tut tut thread...
. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-26-2004).]

Australia Says Iraq WMD May Yet Be Found

But all this is irrelevant, even if we found one million tons of anthrax it still wouldnt justify the passing of The Patriot Act and the hidden broken pieces of The Patriot Act II. Sure, TP2 was rightfully denied passage, but... there's always a but, little pieces of it have found their way into numerous other bills that HAVE been passed. I even think a piece of it was signed on the day Saddam was captured.

It is definitely time to repeal The Patriot Act and all of The Patriot Act II pieces that have been snuck into other bills.

[edit] oops... linkage fixed.... I hope[/edit]

______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 01-26-2004).]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/26/patriot.act.ap/index.html

nothing resembling a repeal, but a somwhat positive note at least.....

Interesting article from George Soros:
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1131132,00.html

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

From the George Soros article:

quote:

---

The US can lose its dominance only as a result of its own mistakes. At present the country is in the process of committing such mistakes because it is in the hands of a group of extremists whose strong sense of mission is matched only by their false sense of certitude.

This distorted view postulates that because we are stronger than others, we must know better and we must have right on our side. That is where religious fundamentalism comes together with market fundamentalism to form the ideology of American supremacy.

---