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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-23-2004 15:09

Study: Red Sea parting was possible

It would be better translated as "Reed" sea since that is the one actually mentioned in the text and not the Red Sea.

. . : slicePuzzle

Slime
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Massachusetts, USA
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-23-2004 16:06

I'm pretty sure it was already known that high winds could do that there. My high school biology teacher (a heavy evolutionist), who was also my mother's biology teacher when she was in school, once told her class this fact, in an attempt to show that it was "obviously" not a supernatural event. So I don't know why they're stating this as though it's new news.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-23-2004 17:25

Because there are always "new" people popping up. Just because someone once figured something out doesn't speak to how well it was shared with others.

That's actually pretty funny about her using it as a way of diminishing the event's significance. I guess that would be a good argument against someone who believed it happened just like in the movie.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-23-2004 18:05

Yep, definately a known thing. I recall learning about a couple of 'natural' possibilities back in grade school, and have read things from both pro and anti christian sources for years now.

I would have thought it would be more generally known that it seems to be...



jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 01-23-2004 18:20

I was reading about this before too. And the theory that there was a possibility that God worked thur nature and it was due to the tides at the time. And the Egyptians came thru long after the chosen had crossed over like maybe days or weeks after, since we cannot take the bible literally in many sections. But God still had a hand in it thur created nature. As the same way God works thur nature in sunlight, air, rain, etc.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-23-2004).]

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 01-23-2004 19:22

I actually saw something covering this on 'ancient evidence' on the discovery channel (killer show if you haven't seen it). they were looking at the fact that volcanic activity could've caused all the plagues brought upon egypt and that the eruption of a volcano in the area actually lines up with the timeframe the events occurred in according to the bible. interesting stuff...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Dufty
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Where I'm from isn't where I'm at!
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 01-23-2004 20:56
quote:
the "strong east wind that blew all that night" mentioned in the Bible needed to blow at a speed of 67 miles per hour



erm...

quote:
In the morning, before it was light, the people marched on dry ground between the walls of water towering above them on either side.

...and...

quote:
Several problems are caused or aggravated by low temperatures and wind. The wind can increase the effects of the cold as it lowers the skin temperature even more. For instance, if the temperature is 30 degrees and there is a wind of 15 miles per hour, exposed flesh will feel an effective temperature of 19 degrees. Then when the temperature drops to minus 10 degrees and the wind rises to 30 mph, the effective temperature on bare flesh will be 39 degrees below zero! Bare flesh will freeze very quickly! ]http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ageng/safety/ae1237.htm



Still playing devil's advocate but after a 4 hour crossing, it's unlikely that anyone would have survived such wind in the cold desert morning.

!edit! UBB

[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 01-23-2004).]

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 01-25-2004 05:04

Guess that all depends on the climate at the time. According to that chart a wind speed of 60MPH and a temperature of 30F (it is an American site, in case anyone was thinking Celcius) you get a wind chill of 10F. That is very doable. Just need to find out how cold it is in the desert in the early morning. I found a few sites, but none gave specifics, except to say that the teperature ranges from 130F during the day to freezing at night. This also depends on the season. One of my sources

Note that once you go above 30MPH, there is actually very little change in the wind chill.

You might also want to take this into account (source):

quote:
HISTORY
5 million years ago: Climatic changes turn the region of Sahara into a desert.
Around 5000 BCE: Domesticated livestock appears in Sahara, leading to nomadic pastoralism.
Around 4000 BCE: First traces of agriculture.
Around 0 CE: The climate of Sahara shifts back to mainly desert, rather similar to modern conditions.


Appears here as if the sahara was not so bad during the timeframe this took place.

From the original article:

quote:
"I am convinced that God rules the Earth through the laws of physics,"
Volzinger told the Times.


Why wouldn't he? If you created a planet, complete with governing natural laws, would you not use those laws when 'managing' your planet? To me what makes it a miracle is not the fact that it happened, but that it happened with the timing that it did. We may be able to prove that it happened scientifically, but we can't prove that God didn't have a hand in it.




[This message has been edited by Ramasax (edited 01-25-2004).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-25-2004 05:22
quote:
what makes it a miracle is not the fact that it happened, but that it happened with the timing that it did

YES. I strongly agree with that perspective on many of the miracles mentioned in the Torah.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 01-25-2004 22:10

What about a modern day miracle. In Medjourgie, Yugoslavia.

For over 25 years the virgin mary as been appearing. Initially to seven small childern who have grown into adulthood. Now the inital seers number a few. Maybe less than three. Because she tells the different children different messages and when their individual messages are complete she ends her apparation to them. Each has been given ten secrets all different. Some personal, some for the world. When she stops appearing is when the secrets for the world will start to manifest themselves. She gives public messages for the world every 25th of the month. And its always to pray, pray, pray to her son Jesus for peace in the world. And to put peace in our hearts. Thousands of pilgrims from all over the world go to this tiny city yearly for a pilgrimage for cures, peace and love.
Here one can see the sun spin and turn different rainbow colors, rosarys turn gold, clouds appear as crosses, people are cured of ailments and diseases. But most people come to reconcile themselves to Christ.

http://www.medjugorje.org/weiblep.htm

www.medjugorjeusa.org/drpaul.htm


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-25-2004).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-25-2004).]

Dufty
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Where I'm from isn't where I'm at!
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 01-26-2004 14:30

To my way of thinking, under Ramasax's definition, a miracle is a culmination of one or more coincidences no?

Aw shucks... I just can't help myself sometimes

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-26-2004 16:39

Yes, but if the timing is anywhere close to what is described, it stretches the definition of coincidence just a bit.

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-26-2004 17:49

Well, that depends. If that was the only time it ever happened.....yes.

It's also quite possible this was a semi-regular occurance, depending on a lot of possible circumstances.

It could even be that this phenomenon was known about, and was the reason they took that route...

Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 01-26-2004 19:21

Gosh.. human belief in their own analytical abilities just never ceases to baffle me. Can the thing made know it's maker? Does God get accurate weather reports? Why don't we ask him where Saddam's wepeons are? What happened to "In God We Trust"?



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-26-2004).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-26-2004 21:40

Uh-huh.

And that makes the terribly large assumption that there is such a thing.... =)



Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 01-27-2004 03:39

Well the founding fathers certainly thought so and your constitution and all it's precepts were based in that very fact .... and it has not yet been removed from the currency.. Ok assume nothing exists then... what basis is there for morality.. and love... and ethics.. and goodness.. and humility.. and philanthropy.. anything humanitarian? Then you may as well abandon all restraint and go right ahead and dominate your fellow man.. beginning with your fellow citizens and radiating outwards.. If I believe Darwin, or follow through some the ideologies I am being sold here then that is my true nature.. and I should not surely give a dam about anyones civil liberties or the things we are complaining are being taken away from us or life or anythng that does not directly benefit ME and ME and ME..

Perhaps that is exactly what is happeneing. Yeh.. thanks DL-44 Thanks for giving me hope..

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 01-27-2004 03:55

If wind was that strong to part a sea! I dont think a human would be standing on his feet, he will be flying like a superman! hehe

irrational...that explanation is pretty poor...IMO

btw,...is the sea in fact did had parted in that area why in the whole damn world it never happened again and never was recorded...asia especially japan has thyphoons and tsunamies all this crazy styff and somehow it never had anything so exaggerated....Plus in vietman it rains so much sometimes even for month without stoping...no flood happens at all....

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 04:17

anyone consider that "blew all night" doesn't necessarily mean that it blew when they were actually crossing? stuff i've seen on it likens it more to something like tide going out and leaving a low spot where they could cross, which doesn't seem so far fetched imo.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 04:58

Ruski, you really crap me up sometimes!

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 05:07

two things -

1) XPI - if you need external reasons to be a good person, then the goodness you might have is by and large rather false.

What sort of deities the founding fathers of the US beleived in is wuite immaterial to me.

2) Ruski - we're talking about what is referred to as the REED sea, which has been misinterpreted in popular mythos as the RED sea. The reed sea, unlike the Red Sea, was apparantly a marsh-like area, and not truly a sea. That makes quite a difference.

Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 01-27-2004 10:04

I beg to differ... I think we need external reasons for everything DL.. I mean everything I know and have and have learned and become are from external sources initially and have then been internalized.. If at birth I was deposited on a hillside..and left to my own devices... er, I would remain in a very raw state of human developement presuming I survived at all. Surely everythng we are originates from external sources? Even goodness is learned... a deaf dumb and blind child will not accomplish very much left to it's own devices.. We all are dependant and need external input. My mother taught and demonstrated goodness to me.

..and I was saying about the beliefs of those Founding Fathers.. because their goodness and essentially good ethics which then produced the somewhat 'good' constitution came from somewhere... from their aquired beliefs.. it did not just spring from nowhere..



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-27-2004).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 14:26

Of course we need external influences, I didn't say otherwise.

What I'm saying is, if the only reason you feel the need to be "good" is because god says so.....

Then to me, it's not worth much. It's the same mentality which makes people go to war because they think god wants them to.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-27-2004).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 15:39

I believe that we need an external source, the Creator, to ultimately know the difference between good and evil.

I believe the Creator implanted us with the potential to make that judgement.

I also believe that the world itself is laid out such that good and evil become more knowable to us as we experience the circumstances of our actions.

These all work in concert and none should be left out of the composition.

DL, the problem I have with your approach of leaving God out of the mix is that I don't understand on what standard you are judging right from wrong? Can you explain that to me? If two people disagree as to what is right vs. wrong, how would you decide? Is it rooted in something unchanging or do you see right and wrong shifting?

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 17:41

Well, before I answer that question, I would like to ask one myself - how does god make that difference clear? We have countless groups who allegedly worship the same god, and use many of the same documents to validate their religion, but can't seem to agree on what is right and wrong.

God lays out laws, but all these religions and sects have various ways of determing when they do not need to be adhered to....

That seems to say that god hasn't helped sort it out very much.

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 18:17

care to elaborate on that a bit dl? i mean, sure, there are differences when it comes to some theological issues, but it seems that on the basics of how people should be treated, etc., everyone is pretty much on the same page.

interesting topic as i've just recently been reading 'mere christianity' by c.s. lewis where he sets out an argument as to how and where we derive our moral law from, interesting stuff.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 19:49

How many different sects/groups can agree on when it is or is not ok to kill another person? How varied are the views on this?

To some, it's *never* acceptable.

To some, it is ok in cases of defending one's life or family.

To some, this concept of defense turns into preemptive killing being ok.

To some, it's not only ok, but a great thing to kill yourself and take out as many people as you can in the process, for the 'glory of god'.

That's a pretty wide span which I'd feel a bit uncomfortable referring to as being "on the same page".



Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 19:52

so you don't think that society as a whole would agree that killing in general is bad and even in extreme situations rather questionable?

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 20:42

I would really like to know on what basis DL does decide right from wrong.

In answer to your question, DL, I think Paul does a pretty good job of explaining the purpose of the Law of Moses and how it was to be a teacher to the people. But just so Gentiles are not left out, he explains how people's consciences spoke to them internally as to the Law; explicit versus implicit. The Jews were to be the beacon on the hill, drawing all humans to righteousness. When Christ came he told the woman at the well that his followers would no longer need to go to a physical location to worship God but that the Law of God would be written upon their hearts; they would worship in spirit and in truth. When the Holy Spirit indwells us, He provides guidance to the truth. We can still mess it up and not listen to Him but that is how I understand God tells us the difference.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-27-2004).]

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 01-27-2004 21:22

Bugs, why is that there has to be right and wrong? I do not see right or wrong at all!
I only see greed or insanity...
I might guess you would agree that things are socially accepted and rejected and that acceptance changes as the society changes(somebody said that before ) an exemple: Jews. You claim they were wicked but christ came and changed the rules?...well Jews are not christians and I do no think that they had to do anything at all with christ for who they are today.

Give dipshits damn education and they should do fine, if not they are still dipshits. Just because someone knows math or got 1600 on SAT and he sill goes agains the law...well it will never change the fact that he is still a dipshit...then again its allways for a dipshit to decided what to do...perhaps he sees it "right" and you see it "wrong"...its more about point of view rather than the creator.

Ohh and by the way I use common sense and logics before I even try to do something stupid....it simply works =)



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-27-2004).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 01-27-2004 22:07

Ruski, I didn't say there *had* to be right and wrong.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 01-28-2004 01:59

Well I assumed you felt that way and therefor like you mentioned you believe they have to come from "someone" and to you it is God. Even so where does God comes from? I mean...don't give me that "he was alwasy there" how do you know anyway? what gives you to support this idea...writtings that were written 2000 years ago? why would they be accurate if Greek's beliefs to you perhaps are just legends. How does differ from any other Gods? How about Islam?

I mean it took only one man; Muhammad to claim he had recieved the the holy book from angle gabriel...or whatever his name was. Look at it! Its fastes growing world religion right now.



DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 01-28-2004 03:47
quote:
so you don't think that society as a whole would agree that killing in general is bad and even in extreme situations rather questionable?



Which society?

Of all the things that are uncertain, one thing I have no doubt about is that god is not american

I think it is safe to say that the world is varied enough socially that we really can't put this in a "global society" context. Even in the US, there are such widely varied views, even the subject of killing, to say no - I don't think that society "as a whole" would agree on that.

Bugimus - Well....if "the Law of God would be written upon their heart" and presumably the case is still so? Then it would seem that we are simply back to square one - how can we say exactly what right and wrong are, if god has written such different messages in people's hearts?

As for me - I honestly can't give you a concrete answer. What is right and wrong, at the more basic levels, are obvious things IMO. They are apparently not so obvious to other people though And thus the root of the problem. The closest we can come as a society is to agree the best we can on what is right and wrong - a general concensus, as it were, of what we wouldn't want done to us. Not to say that we are only looking out for ourselves, but rather that the conscience is based in empathy, sympathy, and respect, as well as an understanding of action/consequence; by understanding that you would not like to be robbed, you can easily see that it would be wrong to rob someone else. By being able to see how certain actions would effect people, and by harboring a simple desire to not hurt people, right and wrong become - generally - fairly simple.

I maintain that to do "good" because it is required of you is no good at all.

Ruski - I think you'll find that if you pick a topic, and build your point with some sort of focus, you'll have a lot better luck. . .



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-28-2004).]

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