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InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-20-2002 16:30

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 03-22-2002 03:42

I really wish I had a binary machine gun...

ASP *blam* *blam* *blam*

.NET *blam* *blam* *blam*

VBScript *blam* *blam* *blam*

VB *blam* *blam* *blam*

I really don't know why microsoft trys to get into the programming language business.

IMO they are poluting the industry with unneeded languages and technologies.

All you programmers who program in these languages don't take it as an offence, it is just my opinion.

bitdamaged
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 100101010011 <-- right about here
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-22-2002 04:23

Aye... Ironiclly the majority of people I know who do use them (and don't forget the new bastard offspring C#) are not using them by choice.



.:[ The Tao of Steve ]:.
Be Desireless
Be Excellent
Be Gone
...................................

DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...

From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994

posted posted 03-22-2002 10:15

Hey, has anyone else tried to look up any MSIE syntax lately at MSDN? I went there recently, needed some simple syntax for CSS and backgrounds, but my bookmark didn't work, they had changed all the documentation. Now the instructions don't mention code, instead they tell you how to do things using MS Visual Studio, the bastards! Really, I don't *want* to know how to do things using some MS specific tool, I just wanted the syntax, which I was unable to find at Microsoft. I hate them.

Your pal, -doc-

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-22-2002 10:24

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

jiblet
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 03-22-2002 17:00

You know, for a web designer, a Mac gives you a better PC than a PC these days. You can install multiple instances of Windows so that you can have IE 4, 5, 5.5 and 6 all using VirtualPC. Of course, you can probably do the same thing with the same amount of work with a partitioned drive on your PC, but then you're still Gates' bitch

Hey, we all know how evil M$' market-share-whoring development platforms are, but what do you think about some of their more standards-based technologies that are designed to solve problems other than Gate's small-penis syndrome? I'm speaking specifically of SOAP, which I'm considering using rather than just inventing my own proprietary XML application on the fly. Anyone have any strong feelings about this?

-jiblet

bitdamaged
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 100101010011 <-- right about here
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-22-2002 17:37

Actually if I wasn't so tied to the PC from a hardware perspective I'd be going straight to OSX. It's Unix for the desktop, and people are developing apps for it! Whoever thought MS would port the Office suite to what is essentially a *nix OS?

I'm expecting big things from this.





.:[ The Tao of Steve ]:.
Be Desireless
Be Excellent
Be Gone
...................................

jiblet
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 03-22-2002 18:44

From a web design perspective OS X is my platform of choice hands down. The integration of Photoshop, Apache, PHP, MySQL alone is unique (Sure you can set it up on Windows, but if you're hosting on Unix, it's just not the same). The clincher for me is the greatness of BBEdit (no offense to HTMLBeauty Max .

The only thing about Macs is that you have to realize you pay more for the quality of the package. The thing that makes them so sweet is the way Apple controls the entire package. You can get burned if you expect Apple to support your hardware for more than 2-3 years, but if you can justify spending $2000 every couple years for a good mid-range Mac you will never be happier. Of course you can get longer support by running linux on a Mac, but for linux you might as well get Intel.

-jiblet

Sash
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Canada, Toronto
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 03-24-2002 15:11

I have something for you Microsoft lovers :-)

Sasha.

DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...

From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994

posted posted 03-24-2002 19:37

Heh. Ballmer on drugs, hah! Hope he doesn't have a heart attack.

Your pal, -doc-

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-25-2002 08:01

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

fizgig
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: West Bloomfield MI
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 03-29-2002 14:36

wow, this is the dumbest thread ever

microsoft bashing is really fun!!!

Ap0s7le
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Louisville, KY
Insane since: Mar 2002

posted posted 03-29-2002 20:51

microsoft had a lil conference here a couple years back and I was invited among a few hundred others... a dude was out warming up the crowd and he asked if anyone knew where microsoft got it's name... I raised my hand and waved, so he said "yes sir?" and I answered with a straight face "bill gates first sexual experience?"

everyone busted out laughing... I sat down... well pleased...

Dark Phoenix
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Harrow, Ontario, Canada
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 04-10-2002 00:52

The problem is a large number of nonprogrammers seem to assume that Microsoft technology MUST be better than everything else. That's why it's always successful, even though it's a pain in the @$$ to use.

Personally, I'd rather stick to Java than start using VB OR C#. It may be slow, but at least I'm not making assumptions about what the end users are going to be running.

"No one's going to give you a map; you've got to walk your own path." - Hot Ice Hilda, Outlaw Star.

sonic_tsunami
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: some evil place, the evil little atoll
Insane since: Jan 2002

posted posted 04-23-2002 04:30

microsoft technology rips off other technology..and alters it so its legal..
they defy all the opensource rules too.. bastards...
like msn messenger is an altered ircd server...(I think bahumet)
and .net is java..
hell all their shit sucks...I want linux...get this vile piece of shit OFF my comp!

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-23-2002 09:17

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

fizgig
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: West Bloomfield MI
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 04-23-2002 15:29

repeat, microsoft bashing is really fun!!!

get off your high horses, MAC OSX has really bad graphics acceleration http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,51926,00.html

Mac, Linux and Unix can't run most applications and games developed, any attempted emulators or compatability layers have so far been really unstable, and if you can't run most apps, who's to say how stable you are if you've never been pushed


bitdamaged
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 100101010011 <-- right about here
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-23-2002 15:37

Well personally I try to stay away from MS bashing. I simply wouldn't choose their products for a server environement. And I don't think many here would dispute the choice of Windows on the desktop 2K and XP were huge advances in terms if stability and yes have much higher compatibility with apps (especially games) however the fault doesn't lay fully on Apple for their lack of a gaming platform, with the marketshare MS has it's just not terribly viable for developers to port their games to the Mac.

And you'll notice if you read the article that these rendering issues will be dealt with, OSX is not a true upgrade OS it's a brand new one. The apps will need time to catch up.

Finally you'll notice most of our gripes are not with the MS OS/applications but with the way they implement their various scripting languages and tools. 2 totally different things.



.:[ The Tao of Steve ]:.
Be Desireless
Be Excellent
Be Gone
...................................

[This message has been edited by bitdamaged (edited 04-23-2002).]

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-23-2002 15:51

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-23-2002 15:57

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

jiblet
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 04-23-2002 17:17

fizgig, have you ever used a Mac for serious work over a period of time? While I agree that Microsoft bashing for the sake of jumping on the bandwagon is stupid, I have spend 5 years working with Windows, and 9 years working with Macs.

When I say I like Mac OS X better, it's not from the saddle of a high-horse, nor is it based on an editorial from Salon.com. It's based on in-depth experience with both systems. Your argument that you can't determine stability because there aren't as many applications available is fundamentally flawed. The whole point is that OS X has protected memory, which means you could write a trillion buggy programs and they would never crash the system. In the near 2 years since I first installed the OS X public beta I have had plenty of programs crash, but I have never had to restart except when upgrading. Furthermore, I have no interest in running a ton of games and crappy shareware programs. It's far more important for me to be able to run Unix software because it is more robust, more useful, crashes less, and ultimately puts more money in my pocket (although M$ developing is profitable too).

This is not an esoteric discussion, after my last 'bout with Win98 I decided to move back to Mac full time because I was losing so much productivity. When I tried to install IE 6 on my Win98 box it DESTROYED the whole system. I lost all my files, and I was unable to re-install because I only had a Win98 CD-ROM, but there was no DOS drivers for my CD drive. Luckily my roommate had Win 95 disks so I could re-install from that then upgrade to Win98 off the CD, but it took me 10 hours to get back to a useable state, deadlines were missed.

With Mac OS 9, productivity was essentially equal on both platforms. Enter OS X. Suddenly I am able to emulate the industry-standard LAMP hosting environment. I can test things on my own server without having to constantly be renaming and uploading files to test directories. Sure you can set up Apache, PHP, and MySQL on Windows, but the subtle differences are numerous, and testing on one does not guarantee functionality on the other.

But wait, that's not all. OS X is also the only platform where you can test Mac browsers, Unix browsers, and Windows IE 4, 5, 5.5, and 6. Hey! It's easier to test multiple versions of Win IE using Virtual PC than it is using an actual Windows box!

Look, if all you care about is playing a lot of games or running the latest demo CD from a magazine then by all means you need a PC. But if you are doing serious web development work, I dare you to give Mac OS X a real chance rather than just a knee-jerk reaction against Mac zealotry.

-jiblet

hlaford
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: USA! USA! USA!
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 04-23-2002 18:01

I can't believe I just read this whole chain. I feel I should say a short bit.

Whether or not you like MS products is irrelevent. The fact is that their products sell. If you don't like it, don't buy it or use it. Stick with Apache and PHP (or your preferred combo). Economics will tell who had the best products.

For people getting started, my assumption is that MS solutions are easier to pick up since they tend to lack complexity. That same lack of complexity is what I think the experts on this site have a problem with. I will be working with .NET and, frankly, I'm fairly impressed with what they've done to extend the concepts of Java.

silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 04-24-2002 05:35

Economics does *NOT* tell who has the best products. It just shows who can sell their products the best.

Personally, I use windows because I'm comfortable with the interface and its distribution base is huge. Microsoft does get on my nerves alot, but the versatility of the PC is what gives them a competitive advantage. That and the amount of software support they have available.

The whole mac vs PC thing seems a bit silly to me, although I was once a die-hard PC proponent. The truth is that consumerism works both ways. You have the freedom to get whatever OS you want. If it does all the things you want it to with the least amount of side effects, who cares if there's an apple on the box or not.

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-24-2002 08:47

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

hlaford
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: USA! USA! USA!
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 04-24-2002 16:39

Economics most certainly *DOES* tell who makes a better product [discounting unfair business practices]. If a product sells better, it is because it has the qualities that people want, whatever motivates people to buy: larger market share, better performance, style, etc. You may not favor certain products, but you aren't forced to use them (except by an employer).

VHS was a better product than BETA simply because it was there first and maintained a large user base. If no one buys it, its value is purely academic.

Veneficuz
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: A graveyard of dreams
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-24-2002 17:30

Just to repeat what Silence said:

quote:
Economics does *NOT* tell who has the best products. It just shows who can sell their products the best.



Just a little question regarding OSs. Anyone here use Linux for their webdesign work? Does Flash and PS work with Linux?


-= Veneficuz =-
"Mundus vult decipi. Ergo decipiatur."

DigitalUbiquity
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Insane since: Jan 2002

posted posted 04-24-2002 19:46

I do all of my personal projects on a linux box (including my web site). PS doesn't work for sure but can be replaced by the Gimp (but there is a bit of a learning curve) and I don't know about flash. I have really liked the experience so far, though is has been just the last two months.

For jiblet and other internet application developers out there. Take a look at BEEP, is a great tool and worth learning. However, stay away from the O'reily book (which is the only book about BEEP so far) as it sucks (which is the first time I have ever said that about an O'reilly book).

DigitalUbiquity


[This message has been edited by DigitalUbiquity (edited 04-24-2002).]

jiblet
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 04-24-2002 23:41

Hlaford, the majority of platform purchase decisions are not made by people who understand what they're buying. Marketing is such a fine-tuned science these days that they just list off a bunch of buzzwords, touting them as features, and it convinces half the world.

An IT manager would say the best platform is the one that lets them deploy the best version of their product possible for the lowest cost (both in software and engineers' salaries). Yet, there is no objective way to determine this in a real world environment. In order to know these things you would have to understand the minutest detail of the entire project and all the intricacies of any candidate platform. So if their cost-benefit analysis is flawed (which it inevitably will be) they could buy the wrong product. The fact that they bought the wrong product does not magically somehow make it the 'better' product, it just means the marketing was better. They simply didn't know all the facts.

That's not to say .NET is always worse than Java. There's no such thing as absolutely better or absolutely worse. It depends on the application. There's benefits and drawbacks to almost any choice of platforms, but those benefits and drawbacks are not related directly to the sales of the product.

-jiblet

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-25-2002 09:16

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

fizgig
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: West Bloomfield MI
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 04-25-2002 16:35

i never bashed or said any platform sucks, I just said get off your high horses. Each OS has benefits and drawbacks, whether it be crashing, memory hogging, compatibility, ease of use, speed, support, etc.

I might be a hardcore mac or unix supporter if i could get the parts cheaply and build my own box, they had some games, and supported my Dev Apps. Interesting article on Slashdot today, DreamWorks moving to Linux from Irix(SGI machines), might make Adobe consider porting apps, then we may see an interesting trend...



[This message has been edited by fizgig (edited 04-25-2002).]

jiblet
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 04-25-2002 18:16

Everything you said about Macs was based on articles you read and other propaganda. We were speaking based on experience of using Microsoft products. How does that put us on a high horse?

-jiblet

InI
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-25-2002 18:37

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

sonic_tsunami
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: some evil place, the evil little atoll
Insane since: Jan 2002

posted posted 05-15-2002 22:48

heh, MS is sad.
they make things easier and more user friendly, but by doing that, you risk security, I like unix stuff better becuase it's all up to the user to configure everything and make it more secure.

Dracusis
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Brisbane, Australia
Insane since: Apr 2001

posted posted 05-18-2002 16:50

I will use what I use. You will use what you use.

I will make my own descisions as to what I want to use. You will not make them for me.

I have my reasons, I don't need to justify them to you.

I am able to accomplish what is needed with my OS.

I am a windows user. I honestly couldn't give a s*** what you use.

I am not better or worse off, just contempt.

At the end of the day, a car is a car and a computer is a computer. Use the tool that suits you best and get on with it.

sonic_tsunami
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: some evil place, the evil little atoll
Insane since: Jan 2002

posted posted 05-23-2002 13:18

if you use XP you should really get rid of it, packed full of spyware.

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