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Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 04-27-2004 20:05
quote:
SCIENCE & GOD

"Let me explain the problem science has with God."
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a God believer, aren't you, son?" "Yes sir," the student says. "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The teachings says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly. He considers for a moment "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." The student does not answer, so the professor continues.
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a God believer who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent. "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says.
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" "Er... Yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?" The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." "Then where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?""Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct? " "Yes." "So who created evil?" Again, the student has no answer.
"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All these terrible
things, do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them? " There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in
front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized."Tell me," he continues. "Do you believe in God, son?"The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes,professor. I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen God?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?" "No, sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of God? "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "Yet you still believe in him?" thundered the professor
"Yes." "According to the rules of empirical, testable,demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No sir, there isn't." The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat,but we can't go any further after that.
There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than -458 degrees. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.
We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absenceof
it. Silence across the room! A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer. "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it
isn't darkness?" "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light. But if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness
isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must also be flawed." The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?" "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we
can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,yes,of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going.
A very good semester indeed! "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other students,
let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever
seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the established rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable! Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." The class breaks into a deadening applause "Continuing further, Sir, when GOD created the universe he made a set of rules which governs every living organisms, categorized in his own way. For some, life is a predestined, well programmed journey of life. For others, like humans, the rules of life are a direct results of their own actions, words, thoughts or/and conducts.
So, Sir, happiness, sadness, good, bad, sickness, good health, poverty and abundance, is man's own doing unto himself. The wrong and bad happenings in man's life, is nothing but the lack of righteousness in his way of life."

It pays to have faith in God than in Science...
Evil is not the opposite of Goodness...it is the absence.



(Edited by Xpirex on 04-27-2004 11:20)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-27-2004 20:35

I've heard versions of this story before and they are usually silly and this one has all the silly parts, HOWEVER this one also points out the non-duality of good and evil and I find that point to be excellent. Death is not a thing unto itself but a lack of life, I like that.


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Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 04-27-2004 21:40

Oh well, sorry to be so unentertaining Bugs.. It kind of amused me though as I have not actually read any of these before. Anyway the sun was blazing outside and it's been a womderful day and I feel good..and I'm not going to have a massage..

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-27-2004 23:25

No massage? This meets with my approval


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WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-30-2004 10:46

As usual, it's BS...neat story...but it breaks down at the end. First of all, Evolution doesn't teach, that Mankind evolved from Monkeys...anyone so suggesting, has already failed the course, so to speak...and invalidates futher discussion by asserting so. Evolution teaches, that Mankind and Monkeys and Apes all had a common ancestor. I really wish that the detractors of Evolution would at least get that right.

And Micro-evolution has been observed. So much for that.

Second, I can prove that the Professor has a brain...because we know what a brain looks like, feels like, smells like, tastes like (don't know if one can hear it...hehe) from disecting heads before. Therefore, if I chop the professor's head open, I will see his brain...and so forth.

Also...heat, cold - cold is a subjective value...used to describe a condition that humans can "feel"...as one can feel heat. However, in scientific terms, cold doesn't exist...as one can see, with the Kelvin scale (unless one does wish to describe absolute zero as Cold...which I would not). Same goes with Light and Darkness...both examples are really the same - the properties of Energy, covered in Thermal Dynamics.

There is no evidence supporting that Death is the opposite of Life, or the absence of it. In fact, for a believer in God to actually suggest such, is in itself inaccurate - for after death, one either goes to eternal life...or eternal damnation (also life?) in the Afterlife. Note that it is not the Afterdeath...and one still "exists" after Death...so it cannot be the absence of life.

And since I don't believe in good and evil...I think that good and evil are man-made beliefs. They do not exist in Nature.

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 04-30-2004 14:38

Boy did this thread surprise me. I looked at the title and was expecting info on some sort of wonder drug that would give me God-like genitalia...

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | Keeper of the Juicy Bits

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 04-30-2004 18:15

I'll admit I was a little taken aback by the thought of god's nads...

As far as the story - yeah, typical superficial junk. Any science professor with that little understanding of his own subject would be very quickly removed (I would hope).

Anyone who actually buys the arguments presented in that story needs a serious refresher course as well.

krets
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Right-dead center
Insane since: Nov 2002

posted posted 04-30-2004 18:30

Stew.

Pid.

:::11oh1:::

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-30-2004 18:46
quote:
There is no evidence supporting that Death is the opposite of Life, or the absence of it. In fact, for a believer in God to actually suggest such, is in itself inaccurate - for after death, one either goes to eternal life...or eternal damnation (also life?) in the Afterlife. Note that it is not the Afterdeath...and one still "exists" after Death...so it cannot be the absence of life.

Evidence aside, theologically death being the absence of life does have some biblical support. I must admit I still believe in eternal damnation for the lost, but there are several verses that suggest the lost will be destroyed and not live forever in torment. A simple example of that would be the parable of the wheat and tares; the wheat are gathered up in the storehouse and the tares are burned. The idea that we all possess an immortal soul may not be of Jewish/Christian origin at all but something the early church adopted especially once Xianity became entagled in the Roman empire. It's something to keep in mind, and I am not suggesting by any stretch that this is a settled issue.


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(Edited by Bugimus on 04-30-2004 10:08)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-30-2004 20:24

Bugs, Death and destruction are entirely two different things...right? Or are they? For one who believes that something comes after this life, then they must be different - at least in the case of total destruction. Thus Death is not the absence of Life then...for one goes on, either to Heaven or Hell...correct? Total destruction, on the other hand, is the absence of life, obviously...it is the absence of anything.

So even theologically, death is not the absence of life. Instead, it is a transition from one state to another.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-30-2004 21:51

I think you may have missed my point. I am saying that there are Xian theologians who believe that if you are not destined for Heaven, you experience total destruction which would be precisely the absence of life. There would be no transition, there would be no resurrection for those who died in their sins.


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outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 05-02-2004 01:14
quote:
It pays to have faith in God than in Science...


i suppose this should read "rather than"
?can i not believe in both?

quote:
Evil is not the opposite of Goodness...it is the absence.


that's ridiculous - you might as well say minus is not the opposite of plus because it's zero

physical death (as we know it) is one thing; spiritual death is another. at christ's return all (flesh) will be transformed into spirit. we all know this physical body we have now returns to dust when it dies. scientific fact. after that, within our physical selves, we can only guess.

statement of faith: i refuse to believe in a god who would be so cruel as to let me burn in torment forever for the sake of justifying himself. where's the mercy in that?

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