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Gideon
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-21-2004 21:50

This is something that has been laying heavily on me lately, and I would like some help to discern it.

Why is it that people decide to follow a religion that is made for them? Why do people believe in a god that has "been made by human hands"? I have heard of many religions that "customize" their god to their life style? Maybe it is just me, but I can't believe in something, put my whole life into it if it was made for me. Isn't it a dead give away that that religion is false if it is made to fit your needs? I need some light on this subject.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 07-21-2004 23:59

For the same reason people by tabloids.

(no...really. to some people, those things aren't jokes....)

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 07-22-2004 01:20

It is also for a need of personal validation. Some people feel that they need something to validate their existance and they mold their belief system to achomplish that. This isn't the case on the whole though. Many more people would rather change their lives to follow what they have come to believe.

This doesn't prove that religion is false, nor does it prove that some peoples beliefs or ideas are false. They just have a different set of ideas. These things are very intangible and should not be judged on true or false merits. The same goes for most of the things involved in religion if you attempt to prove someones ideas either true or false you are running up against a brick wall. Ideas fall into the same sort of discrete category as opinions. They are your ideas and only yours, noone else will change them for you. You might end up changing your ideas based on external affects but only the one holding the idea can make that choice.

Dan @ Code Town

InSiDeR
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 07-22-2004 02:04

Closure.

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the smaller bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 07-22-2004 02:51

because their belief doesn't extend to a higher being.

The centre of their existence is themselves. As such, their beliefs have the same base.

It could also be that they want to add meaning to their lives, but don't want to change their lives, and are willing to alter their beliefs to satisfy these requirements, and allow their brains to convince themselves that this is a perfectly acceptable stance.

reitsma

tntcheats
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: BC, Canada
Insane since: Jun 2004

posted posted 07-22-2004 07:52

I don't know why the hell people even bother with religion.

A) If "God" even exists it either wants nothing to do with us or doesn't want us worshipping it or else it would SAY SOMETHING or DO SOMETHING.
B) Where'd God come from? Religion doesn't give ANY answers. If anything, it just contradicts itself time and again and wastes peoples time.

That's why I am not theist, among many other reasons.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

Rick
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Borneo Island
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 07-22-2004 09:43

Comfort. Ease. "I can change anything I want if it doesn't suit me anytime".

Stupidity..

cell 799

White Hawk
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-22-2004 21:18

Every religion was 'made' at one point or another...

Gideon
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-24-2004 00:52

That really put some light on the subject, thanks. One thing, though,

quote:
WarMage said:

The same goes for most of the things involved in religion if you attempt to
prove someones ideas either true or false you are running up against a brick
wall. Ideas fall into the same sort of discrete category as opinions. They are
your ideas and only yours, noone else will change them for you.



I don't quite believe that. Ideas about religion and the like change. I guess I want to say that some religions are founded on falsehood, or false assumptions. It is true that most religions are waiting for something to happen: A messiah, a prophet's return, an armaggedon, just to name a few. Those religions are hard to prove true or false until, if ever, the awaited action happens. But, there are a few religions, that are based on falsehood, or something that is gray and can already be proven wrong, if not by science, by other means. I know of one religion that predicted the exact time and place of the messiah's return. They waited on a hill for three days straight and nothing happened! And there are still many supporters of that religion. I'm not saying that in the United States you can't believe in religions like that, it just confuses me why people do. I do agree that until the awaited action happens (or doesn't happen) the religion is still a mystery based on belief of the followers, and until the action of a single "big" religion happens, it will just be a "war of the faiths". Until then, I don't understand why people believe in the ones that can be proven wrong.

Oh, and one more thing:

quote:
White Hawk said:

Every religion was 'made' at one point or another...



I don't think I worded my question right, but yes, all religions were made at some point and time, I want to know about the founding of it. I know of the Islamic and Jewish faiths, and how they were started. One with a dream, and one with an intimate relationship with God, those are hard to say either way, but I wanted to know why people worship gods like the Greek gods that were made of stone. There is also a show on the History Channel that proves how the "miracles" in the Greek and Roman temples were done. So for any one who wants to prove that wrong take it up with the HC.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 07-25-2004 03:44
quote:
tntcheats - I don't know why the hell people even bother with religion.



I would say a lot of people bother with religion because they feel in their heart that there is something bigger going on that is un-seen in this reality. I guess I would think that some are not willing to attribute super-natural happenings with natural human ability, so they must give those attributes to a God, or Gods. Since humans could write, they have been writing about God, so there must be something to it.

White Hawk, you may find this interesting, about Jehovah's Witnesses, it goes along with what you were saying about how people continue to believe in religions after nothing happens.

quote:
Cal Lehman - The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was really pushing the idea that the end was coming in 1975 in their teachings at the congregation meetings and at the conventions.........After 1975 came and went uneventfully the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society said that the members were guilty of making too much of something the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society only referred to occasionally. I am sure that those who became Jehovah's Witnesses after 1975 and those now studying with Jehovah's Witnesses believe that to be true. I was there. We were constantly warned at our meetings that the end would be here in 1975. It was always presented as a certainty never as a probability. Every Jehovah's Witness I knew was convinced that the New World would be here by October 1975. Those that doubted were considered apostates. I remember the saying among Jehovah's Witnesses at that time was "Stay alive till 75". The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was of course very careful about what they put in print.



Anyway, have to go...

Gideon
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-25-2004 03:54

Very interesting...yes, that is the kind of faith I am talking about. Why do people still believe in that?

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 07-26-2004 11:26

No, it's really not that interesting...trust me.

People are stupid, ya know...

just take a look around you...you will see what I mean.

tntcheats
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: BC, Canada
Insane since: Jun 2004

posted posted 07-27-2004 02:11

*looks around and spots a mirror*

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

White Hawk
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-27-2004 02:23

Eh?!?

Sorry, Gilbert Nolander, but you've lost me completely! When I said what? You'll have to show me where I said anything like that...

...not that it isn't a good point, and I'm sure I've argued it a million times, but never here.

Sangreal
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: the one place the Keebler Elves can't get him
Insane since: Apr 2004

posted posted 07-30-2004 05:34

Gideon you probably could guess that this statement was going to come from me but i will say it anyway.
Science is a way for humans to explain to themselves the finite number of hows in the world.
Religon is a way for humans to explain to themselves the whys. But their are an infinite number of whys that can be asked and this is why religous disputes will always continue.
As for why people make their own religions it's because they are control freaks. They have a serious problem with all the other answers to the why questions so they decieve themselves into making their own and believing it is the truth after all the truth is differant for all of us my truth is far from White Hawk's as his is differand from Gilberts. The thing to remember is that to the people who made their religion is that in their mind it was not created it is their ABSOLUTE TRUTH. It is kind of like when somone who thinks of themselves as the smartest of all people, a hotshot, know-it-all, or smart-ass, (if you will) makes up their own answer to a question or test. To the hotshot this answer is the best one that could ever be given in history. To the teacher it is complete BULL$%^@. When the teacher tells the know-it-all there are two situations that can insue, one is that the smart-ass explodes, (not literally, unfortunately for the rest of us he does not actually go kaboom, while we could use a few less smart-asses nowadays) and starts ranting and raving and refutes the teacher's judgement. This could lead to a lunatic and then we would one more member for our asylum. The other situation is that the little bugger implodes, suffice to say that the stupid git (or religion maker) has made itself a nice little window painting, and then the teacher (or somebody that didn't make their own religion merely follows a pre-made religion [if you will]) comes along with a hammer and systematically smashes all the glass out of the pane. This leaves him, (mentally) with just that a big pain. This has the potential to ruin him for the rest of his miserable life. So since they make it to help themselves cope we may want to use some tolerance and leave a little bit of their nice window painting inside the pane. P.S: (How did you like my signs?)

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-30-2004 18:04

How many people here are members of the youngest global cult in history?

Christianity, anybody?

njuice42
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Gig Harbor, WA
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 07-30-2004 18:16

Formerly, but I began to think for myself sometime around early middle school or so. I've got 'beliefs', just realistic ones (in my head) along with a set of 'life-rules', and there you go. Can't go wrong with self control over your spirituality and life. Helps diffuse religious arguments like you wouldn't believe

I think it has less to do with being a control freak and more with taking a good, long look at all of the rest of the crap going on in the world in the name of Jebus or Allah or who-the-hell-ever, that's not religion. Nonsense rules about not eating meat on certain days, or looking at certain animals with higher demeanor than your fellow human beings, that's all just silly stupid human stuff. No need for that here.

'Do unto others...'. Amen.

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 07-30-2004 21:29

Sorry White Hawk, it was Gideon who I was refering to...

Sangreal
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: the one place the Keebler Elves can't get him
Insane since: Apr 2004

posted posted 07-30-2004 22:57

njuice, while I am methodist (form of christian) I do agree with you. Humans are not but animals and saying some meat is right but others is wrong is stupid. Thats why I am methodist, we eat what we want, we drink what we want, and we do whatever we want as long as it isn't one of three things:
Illegal
agianst the ten commandments (See thou must use common sense)
or well never mind only two restrictions

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Gideon
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-31-2004 03:11
quote:
Sangreal said:

Science is a way for humans to explain to themselves the finite number of hows
in the world.Religon is a way for humans to explain to themselves the whys.



Not necessarily. The Bible also has Geology, Biology, Anthropology, Astronomy, Chemistry, etc. in it. It explains the hows as well, just not i great detail. And you will find out more on this subject later...

Also, wouldn't it be better if there was just one true religion? One set of truths that were right? That would make things in your senario a lot easier. That is why I don't understand why people still look to gods that were obviously man made.

Well, I agree and disagree with you on a few points there njuice. Yes, I am very tired of people using Jesus's awesome name for evil (watch the new King Arthur and you will see one illustration of my frustration). The only thing is that the eating thing isn't man ordained. That was from God to the Jews with Moses as the go-between in Leviticus (if you want to read it be prepared for legalism). That was only ended by Paul when he doing missionary work in Acts (good book, I suggest you read that. much easier read than Leviticus). That is why Jews still only eat a few foods, and why some Christians only eat a select amount of food.

And Ruski, I have looked around, and I have found my intelligent people. Some smart, others not as much. There are quite a few misguided ones out there I am afraid.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-31-2004 06:44

Oh yeah - the Bible contains tons of information on the flat Earth at the centre of the Universe.

It's all very scientific, you know...

Gideon
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 07-31-2004 19:03

Can you give some verses, I would really like to know where and in what context the supposed verses are in.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-14-2004 05:49
quote:
njuice42 said:

Nonsense rules about not eating meat on certain days, or looking at certain
animals with higher demeanor than your fellow human beings, that's all just
silly stupid human stuff. No need for that here.


ok, back to this one, Amen to that. I am sick and tired of all these "rules" set by men. I agree it is "stupid human stuff". The thing is that the meat thing you are most likly refering to Catholics, but I could be wrong. Um, I don't know for sure (I'll have to ask one of my Catholic friends) but it could have something to do with this. It is Chapter 14 in the book of Romans. It talks about eating and why some do and some don't.

quote:
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does R683 not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

(that last part my be where (foot washin) Baptists got the idea) I think it kind of sad that some people try to force others to bend to their will. That is totally against my religion. My is about peace, love, and joy. Not hate and whips. I believe that every man and woman has a decision to make. They are either for Christ or against Him. No middle ground. Everyone can make that decision theirselves. I only want to help them understand what they are giving up if they walk down that path...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Black Magic
Neurotic (0) Inmate
Newly admitted

From:
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 08-16-2004 03:49

religion is always bent in someway or another, whether we like it or not. certain religions, or most religions only focus on certain parts of the bible...and so some religions might be made for some people and not others.

outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 08-16-2004 06:28
quote:
There is no religion higher than truth.



quote:
from this page
The only authority that Jesus might be said to have appealed to was to the authority of truth itself. He did not make "authority" his truth. He made "truth" his authority. Jesus did not expect others to obey Him. He expected them to obey the truth, to live truthfully. Jesus made a lasting impact upon people because by avoiding all authority-thinking he released the power of truth itself.
Ambrosius
Neurotic (0) Inmate
Newly admitted

From:
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 08-16-2004 08:03

Personally, I attend a Methodist Church weekly, but I don't necessarily believe what the church believes. I agree with the lifestyle that is taught by the Bible, but I don't take it's word as truth. Stories such as the Arc and the parting of the Red Sea strike me as silly and my I can't help but imagine a struggling fiction writer cursing himself for not putting his name on the highest selling book in the world. Do I believe in a God? Yes. I am unable to explain my existence, so for the sake of sanity, I have chosen to take the path of a higher power. At times I almost feel bad for not being a "good" Christian, but I understand that that is just society that pressures me into feeling like that. I've concluded that it's not important whether you accept God or not, but that you live life as a good person, whatever you perceive that as. Plus, I often get mad at God, so it'd be ignorant of me to not believe in Him and still get mad at Him.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-17-2004 05:19
quote:
Black Magic said:

religion is always bent in someway or another, whether we like it or not.


That is very sad. I see it all the time. I am reading a book right now about slavery. The worst slavers were very often the most devout religious men. That just puts a heavy weight on my heart. The problem was that they used peices of the Bible to justify their disicable actions. The only problem is that traditions, and laws are the problem. They were too stuck on them to really think about what they were doing. A Christian is a "follower of Christ", and that means that Christians are supposed to have a relationship with Jesus, and try to be like Him in every way. The Bible says "God is love", and what some people do in Jesus's name is not out of love. There are many wolves in sheep's clothing. That is why I think there are so many people who turn away from Jesus is because of all the evil people out there still working for darkness and shout out the name of Jesus. I pray that there will come out of the darkness more and more people who are willing to turn and become true Christians.
Wow Ambrosius. I am really sorry about that. I see it every where. More and more people have those same questions. About the Bible being true, but what about these? The Arc, the flood, six days creation, Adam and Eve. Well, it is hard to take the Bible as fact when you don't trust the whole thing. From John

quote:
3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


You see, inorder to understand salvation and why you need it, and what it does for you, you need those books. And it's not silly in any means. Real men and women have devoted their lives to proving or conversly disproving those sections of the Bible. It is no laughing matter.

quote:
Ambrosius said:

At times I almost feel bad for not being a "good" Christian, but I understand
that that is just society that pressures me into feeling like that.

Are you sure? Society shouldn't really have an impact on you as a Christian. Society, for the most part, doesn't pressure that Christianity is good, for the most part it says that Christianity and all that it stands for is bad. And as for you feeling like a bad Christian, that is good. That is how you know you are saved. That is the Holy Spirit working in you. He is trying to tell you something. Try listening next time. He is a very knowledgable Counselor. And besides:

quote:
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

That is just you being a human. People sin, that is thanks to Adam. Now, thanks to Jesus, we can get rid of that sin, and become holy again. Would you like to be rid of sin? Would you like to have a personal relationship with the one who made you? Then all you have to do is ask Him.

quote:
Matthew 7:7-11
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

He loves you Ambrosius, and He wants to talk to you again. All you have to do is open the door. All you have to do is ask...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-18-2004 00:42

*shakes his head sadly and leaves the ward quietly, locking the door behind him*

Ambrosius
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Tennessee
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 08-18-2004 06:15

Gideon, I do believe in a God. I am not an atheist. I simply do not accept Jesus as my savior. Sure, he was a great man, but I do not see him as the son of God. The Bible is also way too unreliable, as it was written, compiled, and translated by man. Faith without basis is ignorant and the Bible isn't a sturdy foundation.

I am sure that it is the pressures of society that make me feel as I do about not being a good Christian. I have lived in Tennessee, part of the "Bible Belt", for 11+ years now and many are looked down upon for not attending Church on a weekly basis. My nature mandates belief based on facts and science; science does not allow God to speak to me or distribute miracles among Earth's inhabitants. Everything has a scientific explanation.

Ambrosius
"Be only as humble as your talents require." -Oscar Levant

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-19-2004 00:58

*a quiet 'click' as the door opens enough for White Hawk to poke his head in...*

Bravo, Ambrosius! Bravo!

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-20-2004 00:09

*looks over at WH and shakes head*

quote:
Ambrosius said:

The Bible is also way too unreliable, as it was written, compiled, and
translated by man. Faith without basis is ignorant and the Bible isn't a sturdy
foundation.


Okay, first off, it may have been written by men, but they were just the people that God spoke through. The majority of the OT is history and prophecy anyways. Faith without basis I agree is ignorant, but the Bible is a sturdy foundation. It is what happened to men thousands of years ago, and why we are where we are. That is why I get frustrated when Christians don't believe in the literal Genesis. That is the foundation for the rest of the Bible.

quote:
Ambrosius said:

My nature mandates belief based on facts and science


Hmm, what a thought, so does mine. I believe facts and science, and the only difference between me and evolutionary scientists is the base of our beliefs. My base is in the Bible, and theirs is in Secular Humanism. That is why there are differing responses.

quote:
Ambrosius said:

Everything has a scientific explanation.


Well, I am pulling a cop out, so sorry. First off, everything is wrong. There are no everything, nevers, or always. That is a buzzer in my head set from too many tests. If you don't mind I am going to change that sentence a little. Most things have a scientific explaination. And that I will agree with 100%. I do believe that almost everything can be explained through science. Science, mind you, not Secular Humanism.

quote:
Ambrosius said:

I simply do not accept Jesus as my savior.


I'm sorry. You know, in the day of judgement it will be too late. I know that I can't really do anything for you. I really wish that you would accept Him, but that is your own decision. I will pray that you will accept Jesus Christ. You know, He was raised from the dead, and appeared to people for 40 days. If He can do that, then He can do anything. Including taking your sins away.
I want to ask you a question Ambrosius. Are you a good person? Do you think that you can get into Heaven?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ambrosius
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Tennessee
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 08-20-2004 06:55

I am a person of good values. That is why I attend church. I agree with the lifestyle. I lead others to Christianity because I believe the morals it is based on are the right way to live.

I don't accept your argument of God speaking through the men who wrote the text. You only believe that because the Bible tells you that. It's almost like using a word in its own definition. It doesn't work.

Don't pray for me, I don't ask for it. Pray for the people who are mislead and have fallen victim of misfortune. I have good morals and practice them daily, I lead people to Christianity while still being open about my view on it, I don't chose Jesus as the son of God; if that condemns a good man then I am damned. A query if you will, why would God condemn a good man, who follows his path unwavering, just because he fails to recognize Jesus as his son? God forgives us for our faults. If I am faulty in my disbelief, why should I be damned with people of no morals?

-Edit Note: Realized it didn't make much sense at first, reworded it a bit. Tired.

Ambrosius
"Be only as humble as your talents require." -Oscar Levant

(Edited by Ambrosius on 08-20-2004 06:58)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-20-2004 07:41

I'm glad to hear that. I love to hear about good morals and values since our world today is unfortunatly starting to dip into earthly lusts and bad habits. In answer to your question:

quote:
Ambrosius said:

why would God condemn a good man, who follows his path unwavering, just because
he fails to recognize Jesus as his son? God forgives us for our faults. If I am
faulty in my disbelief, why should I be damned with people of no morals?


Good question by the way.
Here is the answer in a nice little story of a rich boy meeting Jesus:

quote:
Matthew 19:16-2216 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

That is the key to eternat life there, "come and follow me". I am sorry to say that you can be the most giving, and loving person in the world, but because of past sins, unless you ask Christ forgiveness for them and pick up your cross and follow Him, there will be no other way into Heaven. I'm sorry if I made you think that being good isn't worht it, it is. The better you are, the more treasures you have in heaven, the only problem is that you won't be able to go and make use of those treasures unless you pick up your cross and follow Him.
Your question also reminds me of a great movie. It is called "time changers" I believe. I like it. It is about a Bible professor who converts people with good morals who goes foreward in time and sees what that does to the world. I wold highly suggest watching it.
And I will still pray for your because I think that you need it more than those with "misfortune", because misfortune can easily be changed, but a life in the flesh cannot.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ambrosius
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Tennessee
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 08-20-2004 08:01

Am I not following Him by following His teachings? It is all left to interpretation. I follow the path in which he has blazed, but I do not believe the stories used to teach me. Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally, or are the stories constructed in a way to show you the life you need to pursue? Every requirement to enter heaven is based on morality, except for the one that requires you to accept Jesus as the son of God. Why is that important? It has the same logic as requiring everyone that enters heaven to be a Lakers fan. There is no benefit from recognizing Jesus as the son of God than to recognize him as just a teacher of morality. If I am unable to walk through the gates because I question a family tree, then what kind of kingdom am I missing? It seems to me that there is pettiness in the afterlife as well. While we're at it, I would like to hear your opinion of Hell. You don't seem like the Dante's Inferno type. I for one, think it is much like heaven. The punishment will be the absence of God. Never being able to meet what gave you everything.

Ambrosius
"Be only as humble as your talents require." -Oscar Levant

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-22-2004 05:22
quote:
Ambrosius said:

Am I not following Him by following His teachings?


Unfortunatly, yes. Don't feel like I'm picking on you, there are many people out there who go to church, and have relatively good morals, the only problem is that Jesus is the only way into Heaven. Yes, it is good to follow His morals, but that is just half the battle, it also will be lost without Him, but He said that He was The Way. The only way. You can't get into Heaven on good morals (again, there is a movie called Time Changer that explains this point extremely well, and I would suggest that you rent it and watch it.)

quote:
Ambrosius said:

Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally, or are the stories constructed in a
way to show you the life you need to pursue?


Ok, as a Christian I am asked this the most. And, you having experience as a Christian, you have probably came into the same question a lot too. Well, it goes like this:
How do you know that Jesus is the Son of God? How do you know what He did? How do you even know that He died on the cross? Were you there? I think I can answer that one. No. You see, you don't know that unless you believe the Bible. Ok, what about taking the Bible literally and the whole thing literally? Well, taking it literally, Jesus took it literally. That is good enough for me, I never really looked further into it. But, I could if you would like. As for the whole Bible's accuracy:

quote:
Unbeliever-How do you know that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God?
Believer-Well, it says in the Bible...
UB-oh, you are quoting that book, I see...Well, what about the six days of Creation?
BR-oh, you don't have to believe those.
UB-Really, you want me to believe this and not that? Now that's real consistant now isn't it? What about the Virgin Birth?
BR-Well, it says back here in Matthew...
UB-You are quoting that book again! Stop it.


You see, if the whole Bible isn't taken seriously and literally, then others won't take your message literally.

quote:
Ambrosius said:

Every requirement to enter heaven is based on morality, except for the one that
requires you to accept Jesus as the son of God.


Yes and no. You see, there are the commandments and sin. If you lead a sinless life, you can enter Heaven. But, through the commandments there is only death, condemnation, no life. It shows you what not to do, and how to get thrown into Hell, but not how to escape it, not how to live. That is where Jesus came from. He was sent from the Father so that we could live even though we have sinned. Jesus has died as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices. His blood washes away the sin. That is why He said the only way into Heaven is through Him. It is because you have sin on your heart. Even if you are unhappy about it and are sorry, you can't do anything about it. Only Jesus can wipe your heart clean and make it pure again.

quote:
Ambrosius said:

It has the same logic as requiring everyone that enters heaven to be a Lakers
fan.


Not really. Just being a fan isn't enough. You have to be personally aquainted with Him. Wouldn't there be a small number of people in Heaven if every one of them had to be aquainted with a Lakers player! It is much better than that. Jesus wants to save us all. He rose from the dead, and He said that HE would be with us until the end of the age. That means that He will be here with us to turn to. We can get to know Him as soon as we hear of Him!

quote:
Ambrosius said:

If I am unable to walk through the gates because I question a family tree, then
what kind of kingdom am I missing?


Oh, a glorious one, with singing and dancing and partying for all eternity!

quote:
Ambrosius said:

While we're at it, I would like to hear your opinion of Hell. You don't seem
like the Dante's Inferno type. I for one, think it is much like heaven. The
punishment will be the absence of God. Never being able to meet what gave you
everything.


Ok, my opinion of Hell is that it is a very bad place, a very bad place. As for much like Heaven, no. Not even close. You were 100% right that the difference between Heaven and Hell is that Heaven has God and Hell doesn't. Isn't that terrible. Read these passages from the Bible, then tell me if the absence of God is bad or not.

quote:
Matthew10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


quote:
Mark9:43
... than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched


quote:
Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


quote:
James3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell


quote:
2Peter2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


I would like to add to this that if there are these angels in Hell (also called demons and Lucifer) and they loved God and He loved them. Then He allowed us a chance at being saved and to go into Heaven, don't you think that the angels are a little angry? So, just speculation, but wouldn't they like nothing better to torture and torment the most loved of God's creations?

quote:
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


So you see, Hell is an awful place. I would much rather spend eternity with Jesus, following the hard road of chastity, than to take the easy road of sin. Wouldn't you?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 08-22-2004 05:28)

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