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Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-19-2004 15:14

OK, so my system disk is acting a little funny. Due to some unknown conflict, I can't fix the error found by Norton because, as far as I can tell, it's running as the system disk.

Anyway, what I would like to do is:

1. Copy my system (OS, programs, everything) to a spare drive I have lying around.
2. Switch the original drive with the stand-in.
3. Boot from the stand-in.
4. Reformat and fix the original drive (consolidating a currently unused partition in the process).
5. Copy the system back to the original drive, switch them again and boot from the original. (The original, FYI, is larger and newer, which is why I want to put it back.)

I haven't been able to find much information on copying a system to a new drive except for places to buy programs that will do it for me.

I did, however, find a couple of suggestions for using the following DOS command to copy the drive:

code:
XCOPY C:\*.* D:\ /c/h/e/k/r



Does anyone know for certain if this will work for me? Wil it copy everything exactly as is? Can I do it from a DOS window while in Windows (2000), which is running on the drive I'm trying to copy from, or do I need to boot into DOS? Are there any other issues I should watch for? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?



(Edited by Wes on 08-19-2004 15:15)

DmS
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Sthlm, Sweden
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 08-19-2004 16:21

AFAIK you can't copy the whole disk while winblows/dos is in use on it.
Driveimage from powerquest or Norton Ghost should work for this.

I don't know any freeware that can do it, should you find one that's reliable, please post it
/Dan

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

Hugh
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dublin, Ireland
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 08-19-2004 16:36

I can't say for definate certain but I don't imagine there would be a problem with DOS reading currently running files. But if you boot up in DOS (with a 95/98 bootdisk or similar) and do it from there you will lose the long files names and be left with crap like: SIXSIX~1.txt so be careful of that.

In regards to your command above:
XCOPY C:\*.* D:\ /c/h/e/k/r
/c - Skip over errors - You may not want this option on.
/h - Hidden & system files - You NEED this one on.
/e - Directories & subdirectories - you also NEED this one on. This also why you use XCOPY and not just COPY
/k - Keep attribs, copy resets files from read only by default. You want this on.
/r - Overwrites read-only files <- I dont understand why that would be in your command, maybe I dont understand what your up to fully.

XCOPY C:\*.* D:\ /h/e/k would suffice.

see
XCOPY /?
for more details.

And what about the boot-sector? I wouldnt know enough to be telling you what to do here.
check out: http://www.xxcopy.com/xxcopy33.htm It tells you how to make a dodgy win2k boot disk, which esentially is what you want to make your D:\ before you copy everything (maybe not). XCOPY may copy the boot sector files fine, I simply haven't played about with these files(much).

Also, if your in anyway smart about it, its very very very unlikely you will screw up your original copy. So go ahead and try it, switch the disks and see if th'other boots.

[whats the opposite to read-only?read-plenty?read-morethanone]

Hugh
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dublin, Ireland
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 08-19-2004 17:17

DMS,
check out your page in:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040707 Firefox/0.8
the menu bar onmouseovers makes the content on the right jump about, just thought I'd let you know, incase you didn't already.

"AFAIK you can't copy the whole disk while winblows/dos is in use on it."
Maybe, but try it out before going for third-party software. If it does work, it would be a much easier solution.

Let us know how this turns out and solve the "Can windows copy itself?" question.

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 08-19-2004 19:31

Idea 1: Knoppix?
Idea 2: Would it be better to simply re-install? You can make a partition with PartitionMagic and toss all your data in there and then reinstall the OS..

Question 1: What is 'the error found by Norton'?

Veneficuz
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: A graveyard of dreams
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-19-2004 19:48

Knoppix should work, since once you've got Linux running you can use the dd command to copy the whole disk including boot sector.

If you decide to go the Linux route this article about disk to disk copy might be of interest.

_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"
- the Golden Ratio - Vim Tutorial -

DmS
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Sthlm, Sweden
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 08-19-2004 19:55

Thanx Hugh, I do know about it.
The css is sort of a mess at present and I don't have the time to get into it right now.
As I've got a redesign in the (slow) pipe I've decided to let that one pass...
/Dan

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

axleclarkeuk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Swansea, Wales, UK
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 08-19-2004 20:00

Unless i am mistaken, Norton Ghost will the job nicely, you can copy your System various ways with it.

You can copy the complete disk from one to another ( spare drive ), it makes an exact copy in the form of an image.

You can copy the hard drive to a CD burner, partition to partition...blah blah blah........

The program fits nicely onto a single floppy disk and i am more than happy to suppy you with a legitimate copy, courtesy of our work place as we use the software on a daily basis.

If you would like more info Norton Ghost , feel free to email me for more info.

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-20-2004 00:43

Thanks for the info, guys.

I'll start simple with xcopy while in Windows and see if it will work. Knoppix looks interesting, so I may try that if xcopy doesn't work; purchasing more software at the moment isn't really an option.

quote:
Would it be better to simply re-install? You can make a partition with PartitionMagic and toss all your data in there and then reinstall the OS..



Well, my data isn't an issue; that's all safe on another physical disk, backed up on another physical disk. And it would be far from better to reinstall. I don't have the time, the patience, the time, or the time. It's not just the OS, but all the programs on top of it and I have way too much to get done to spend my weekend installing and reconfiguring crap. Besides, the OS is working fine, it's the disk that keeps stalling and making funny noises. (Though, strangely it hasn't done it for an entire day now.)

As for the error Norton found, it said it found a couple of bad sectors, but couldn't repair them while Windows was running. It tried rescanning after rebooting (and before loading Windows) but the scan kept hanging, which is why I'm trying another approach to fix the disk.

lan
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Darwin, NT, Australia
Insane since: Dec 2003

posted posted 08-20-2004 07:43

Do keep us posted Wes as I was about go down the Norton Ghost road. I'll hold off now and see how your guinea pig sandwiches turn out before I part with my bread

silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 08-20-2004 09:14

If all you've got is bad sectors, try to defrag in Windows. That should either fix those bad sectors or flag them so they're not used.

Other than that, Ghost is a great program and I'd recommend that option. However, Ghost may throw a fit if you have bad sectors on one of the drives so you may have to disregard that option anyway.

Using xcopy through a DOS prompt in windows may give you errors about "file in use" but it also seems like the most viable option.

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-24-2004 02:14

Well, the whole thing is now pointless. As I was trying to copy everything, the drive finally went belly up. It had been spinning down and spinning back up, causing the system to hang while it waited for the drive, which was what originally prompted me to start looking for causes and to take measures to save things. Well, about 10 minutes short of getting everything copied, it took one final spin down and therefrom refused to power up.

So, I've since been reinstalling everything on the spare drive. The original, luckily, is still under warranty, so I'll be returning it for a replacement. Unfortunately, the spare is smaller and older, so I will want to move things over to the new one when it arrives. This time, I think I'll just go with Ghost and make it easy ...

Thanks anyway, everyone.

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-24-2004 04:25

I'm so sorry Wes - I wish I'd paid attention to this one sooner. I hope you didn't lose anything you cannot replace.

I'm afraid that the whole thing comes down to having the right tools for the job. There may be ways of achieving this job without a reliable ghosting or partitioning tool, but these do exist to make the whole thing safer and a good deal easier.

Um...

...so, in retrospect, my advice would have been worthless.

Such is life.

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-24-2004 14:47

Just discovered this lovely page, which appears to have some very valuable information. According to the author, XCopy wouldn't have done any good anyway, since it doesn't preserve short file names, often referred to by the registry, et al.

It also has some links to free cloning utilities that I will check out when the time comes.

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 08-24-2004 15:09

Aww, Hawk.... yer always worthless...

Wes- you got all your programs backed up, or are you missing any?
Aren't you glad you didn't spend a day reinstalling?

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-25-2004 00:17

All my programs are bought and paid for, of course. Got all the CDs right here.

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-25-2004 18:57

Ummm... this hard drive wasn't the one I said was okay to swap back and forth, is it? *hides behind PetSkull*

ADDENDUM: Hugh, I think the opposite of 'read-only' would be 'write-only' wouldn't it? A bit like that recording Mr. Baird did of a dancer doing the Charlston. Nothing could read it till computers were used to decode the images.

(Edited by White Hawk on 08-25-2004 19:01)

CPrompt
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: there...no..there.....
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 08-25-2004 21:31

Well.........not sure if this is anything you are looking for or not but, it's a nifty program.

It will take your entire drive copy them to ISO images that you can burn onto CD. When you finish burning them on CD and insert the CD into the CD-ROM, it makes it like a mounted drive. Pretty cool.

http://www.drivesnapshot.de/en/down.htm

Later,

C:\

lan
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Darwin, NT, Australia
Insane since: Dec 2003

posted posted 09-17-2004 08:55

OK; been down the Norton Ghost road aways and it's scary down here
I have had several goes at ghosting my C drive but the whole process grinds to a halt and gives what appears to be a sector error on my hard drive (C). I have posted the Norton logfile here in case someone can make more sense of it than me. I assume it to mean that I have bad sectors at 5447103 => 7167 and the only way I think I know to fix that would be to reformat . Is there some way I can quarantine those sectors in order to mirror my hard drive? It's exactly this sort of problem that prompted me to get started on this project. [Big sigh]I do have plenty of back up of data but there's a lot of program files to re load if I fail here [/Big sigh]

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 09-17-2004 14:40

White Hawk - nope, that was the drive that saved my day.

Soon as the new drive gets here, I'll use it as my new system drive and the one I'm currently using, I'll employ as a ghost should this happen again.

shekky
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: St Louis ,Mo.
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 09-17-2004 17:34

Ian
According to symantec you can run ghost with a variety of switches to overcome your scenario I searched your error number there and this is what came up
29004

hope it helps

lan
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Darwin, NT, Australia
Insane since: Dec 2003

posted posted 09-17-2004 23:53

Many thanks shekky; I searched high and low through Norton help pages but I was trying to find about fixing sectors rather than trying to relate to that error number - it's been a rough week here what with one thing and another. I did find that XP defrag doesn't do a very good job but Symantec has a link to a very good trial defrag program - I may even invest the $20 to keep it!
I found quite a few references to the" -FNI" to be added to the Ghost.exe command line but I have problems accessing dos while XP is open - presumably since I've loaded Ghost
Once again; thanks for the push in the right direction - now to get the head 'round this switching caper.

(Edited by lan on 09-18-2004 00:01)

Pugzly
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 127.0.0.1
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 09-18-2004 00:13

The plain old ghost.exe on the floppy is by far the best way to do it. At GM, we loaded 8000 workstations that way. At my next employer, about 4000 - most in under 5 minutes each. I probably Ghost a machine a week now, with the only problems I've ever run into being OSes that were newer than the copy of Ghost I had. Heck - I've even Ghosted full servers.

XCOPY, and variants like Robocopy, aren't going to do it. Period. There are always problems trying it that way (although Robocopy works great for other tasks).

Defrag won't fix bad sectors. Neither does scandisk, technically, they just map around them. The drive is almost always still "bad" or going "bad". Scandisk just keeps track of where those bad sectors are and doesn't use them.

general rules:
1. keep your OS/app drive and data drive separate. If your OS drive tanks, you're not out much, other than time to reinstall. You can also move the data drive to a new computer when upgrading.
2. export your settings once in a while. The FAST wizard in XP does this, and you can save them on your data drive. This makes reloading easier.
3. for God sakes, use a UPS. It amazes me how many people don't pony up the $35 for something like the APC units. They do more than protect you in blackouts! Consistent power saves and protects drives! Throw that $9 surge protector away. A LOT of drive problems are caused by power problems that the owner didn't notice.

White Hawk
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out of nowhere...
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 09-18-2004 02:59

I just read your initial post again Wes. I forget, but couldn't you boot from the Norton disk or rescue disks to repair problems with the system drive/partition?

==I don't believe it! Somebody stole my sig!!==

lan
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Darwin, NT, Australia
Insane since: Dec 2003

posted posted 09-18-2004 06:57

^Pugzly

1) Yup; soon as I've made a clone I'll take your advice and separate them.
2)Ditto
3)I use a laptop which makes the power side a lot less of a problem; just have to rely on an external hard drive a bit more - think I'll buy another Lacie unit and start from scratch. I don't normally have any data problems; I think it's just my inexperience with Ghost and mucking with command lines in general that's causing my prolems. As is often the case - I'm sure the machine is fine - the user (ie me) is the problem; I just want be careful not to create a problem where there really isn't one to start with

Many thanks for the tips

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