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amikael
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: övik
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 12-21-2004 21:34

"The end result has nothing at all to do with the original intent. "

If the Lord has an original intent and the endresult is something else, he messed up.
If I start building a house, I really hope I end up with a house - and not something else.

I can't wrap my brain around the concept that Jesus would enter this would trying to accomplish one thing, and then accomplish something else entirely.
- The Jews still dont recognize him by the way.

(^-^)b

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 12-21-2004 22:16
quote:
The Jews still dont recognize him by the way.



It's not a matter of whether "the jews" recognize. Some did, some didn't. From there, two seperate paths formed - those who accept him as messiah, and those who don't. Those who acccepted him as the messiah developed a whole different religion based on his teachings, which grew futher and further from the traditional jewish religion.

Obviously the jews are still awaiting their messiah. It is at least as plausible that they are correct that jesus was not the messiah as it is that he was.

Given the fact that there is no god, it's all academic anyway


But a great many of his followers did come from the Jewish community. Otherwise there would have been no followers, as the prophecies he supposedly fulfilled were jewish in nature....and the god he was supposed to be the son of was a jewish god. So nobody else would have cared in the least...

amikael
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: övik
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 12-22-2004 00:55

"Given the fact that there is no god, it's all academic anyway "

- And this you know for a fact, huh?

So, you are some superhuman intelligence, and the billions of people who live by Him every single day of their lives are all some inferior stupid halfwits?
- Ever heard of hubris?

The fact remains that it's an accepted truth that Jesus came to broaden the message, and include mankind as a whole.
- The whole "lost son" theme is'nt just the about sinners of the world, but the world, since mankind are all sinners by nature.

(^-^)b

Dan
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 12-22-2004 08:02
quote:
The fact remains that it's an accepted truth that Jesus came to broaden the message, and include mankind as a whole.

...and you're going to talk about being hubris?

That is certainly far from an accepted truth. Plenty of people believe in all kinds of things that arn't true, we don't judge the value of these beliefs on how many people believe them, or how much we want them to be true. Besides... more people believe that the Christian faith isn't true, then believe it is (as I recall, less than 1/3 of the world is Christian).

amikael
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: övik
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 12-22-2004 17:47

"accepted truth.. among christians"

Soooooorrrryyyyyyyyyy....

It's still a far cry from bluntly stating that half the planet is totally wrong, and even considering this, the best you get away with is that we both suffer from hubris, which in no way make you right in any case.
- Possible, it could make for a future as a laywer, you seem to have the required skills for it.

What you speak of is completely off, since we where discussing how christians view gay marriages, and therefor it's kinda interesting how they view Jesus.
- See, there's a connection there..

(^-^)b

amikael
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: övik
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 12-22-2004 17:55

"(as I recall, less than 1/3 of the world is Christian)."

Yeah, well, that changes all , doesn't it?
Now you only know better than a third of earths population, not mentioning that you stated that "there's no God", and that there are others than the christians who also belive that there infact IS a God.
I think the total of it all kinda covers 1/2 of the planet anyway, dont you think?

(^-^)b

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 12-22-2004 18:12

For starters, you may notice you are talking to 2 different people, and referring to both of them as if they are one.

You may find it more practical to note who it is that said what before prattling off in reply...

quote:
amikael said:

"Given the fact that there is no god, it's all academic anyway "

- And this you know for a fact, huh?



Notice the " "?

Most people here know my views well enough to grasp that comment, but for any who don't let me sum up: I can say that I "know" there is no god with the same certainty and at least the same likelihood of being correct as any christian can say that they "know" that there is a god.



quote:
...and the billions of people
who live by Him every single day of their lives are all some inferior
stupid halfwits?



A good chunk of them anyway...

quote:
- Ever heard of hubris?



Kind of like hummus, but a little more zesty, right?


quote:
The fact remains that it's an accepted truth that Jesus came to broaden the message, and include mankind as a whole.
- The whole "lost son" theme is'nt just the about sinners of the world, but the world, since mankind are all sinners by nature.



Accepted truth???

Hardly!
Ever heard of Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Hinudism? Atheism? Shintoism? And maybe anopther 6,000 or so religions whose beleivers do *not* accept this "truth"?

quote:
"accepted truth.. among christians"

Soooooorrrryyyyyyyyyy....



Uh.......yeah.....and???????

In other words "it's an accepted truth, among people who accept it as trtuh".

Well....no shit.




(Edited by DL-44 on 12-22-2004 18:15)

amikael
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: övik
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 12-22-2004 21:22

"In other words 'it's an accepted truth, among people who accept it as truth'.

Well....no shit."


In that context - how christians view Jesus, it is the accepted truth, yes.
No shit.
And that was the context in which the discussion took place.
If you want to discuss wether or not there was a Jesus, or if he was the son of God or not, is another discussion.
The whole thing is about wether or not Jesus spoke out against gay people or not, and in what context he's actual remarks should be seen.
- How far back does your memory stretch - a full five minutes??

(^-^)b

amikael
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: övik
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 12-22-2004 21:31

"Ever heard of Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Hinudism? Atheism? Shintoism? And maybe anopther 6,000 or so religions whose beleivers do *not* accept this "truth"?"

My previous comment on that was

"..you stated that "there's no God", and that there are others than the christians who also belive that there infact IS a God."

See how neatly this ties together?
See, God is not the same as "the christian God", it means "A God", as in "supernatural power", and a lot of people think there is - be it one or more "Gods".
Funny enough, a lot of those you listed above, belive that as well.

Are you sure that you are actually reading these posts, or do you just feel the overwelming need to write something??

(^-^)b

Nimraw
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Sthlm, Sweden
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 12-23-2004 08:46

Just my 2c on the some of the latest points..

quote:
... and that there are others than the christians who also belive that there infact IS a God.
I think the total of it all kinda covers 1/2 of the planet anyway, dont you think?



Now there's an academic question..


If you look at statistics on the number of members of Christian churches and teh likes in the world and compare that to actual christian believers my bet is that you'll find a discrepancy.

In all such reports I've seen Sweden is considered a Christian country, since something like 90% of the population are members of the Swedish Christian Church. The only problem with that statistic is that you automaticly become a member when you're born, and have to make an active choice to leave the church.


The interesting thing is that I, being an Atheist, still add to the numbers of "Christians" in Sweden since I can't be bothered with the paperwork to actually leave the church. And I know for sure that I'm not the only one.. Not that many people here go to church on a regular basis, and most people I know that even go there at all (including me) usually just go there on special occasions. I still appreciate to go see the christmas concerto in our local church, but that has nothing to do with faith.

I would assume that there are similar cases across the world where you are actually a member rather than a believer.

oh well.. carry on..



(Edited by Nimraw on 12-23-2004 08:50)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 12-23-2004 12:51

Here in Germany it is similiar, Nimraw. Except it occurs at Confirmation (which every German child is "pressured" into going through - from the society. The pressure is huge, at least it is in these parts).

Thus, most go through it as a social ritual, and not because they are believers. The children recieve presents ,etc for it. Later, as adults, they get the dubious "honor" of paying a part of their wages to the church., and it is incredibly difficult to get out of. My wife recently attempted it - we managed to get out of paying most of the taxes for the Church, but a small "tilthe" still exits, there doesn't seem to be any way to get out of paying it.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 12-23-2004 21:27

amikael - I would respond to your posts....but you didn't post anything relevant to the quotes you pulled from me....which leaves me nothing to respond to.

~shrug~

I have no desire to engage in the type of prattling you seem to enjoy. My points stand as they were made - if you figure them out, feel free to comment.

'till then....

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 12-24-2004 19:16
quote:
amikael said:

Yeah, but the point of Jesus was to reach out to others oustside the Jewish
community,


Yes and no. Jesus came to die. He knew that from the beginning. The Holy Spirit is actually the New Teacher. The Holy Spirit revealed to the Disciples the things they needed after Jesus died. But What Jesus said time and again is that He was there first for the Jews. He loves us all, but as Paul put it "first the Jew, then the Gentile."

quote:
DL-44 said:

His main goal was really to bring the jewish community back to their faith.


Actually, His main goal was to do His father's work and take the sins of the world and crucify them.

quote:
amikael said:

Sure he wanted that, but his main focus was the human race, and that's why
there's quite a lot non-jewish christians out there today.. not that this is all
good by the way, considering world war 2 and all that..


Actually, the main reason why there are Jews that aren't Christians is because they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It is sad, but it happened.

quote:
WarMage said:

The Christian religion chases after those scraps that Jesus tossed us. The Jews,
as stated in the bible, are gods choosen people


Actually, God loves us all equally. He chose the Jews through Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, but that just means that He was trying to help one group first. He needed someone who would listen and Abraham did that. Romans says that all who die in Jesus claim the covenant that was made to Abraham. Essentially we all become circumcized by faith without needing the body to be circumcised.

quote:
DL-44 said:

Many of the things he did


Were fulfilling prophesies about Him and being a perfect person, as His name suggests. He is a roll model.

quote:
DL-44 said:

Messed up?Who said anything about messing up?


By saying that God didn't do what He intended to do, you are saying that He messed up.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 12-24-2004 19:37
quote:
Dan said:

less than 1/3 of the world is Christian).


Most likely less than that.

quote:
DL-44 said:

I can say that I "know" there is no god with the same certainty and at least the
same likelihood of being correct as any christian can say that they "know" that
there is a god.


Where does that knowledge come from?

quote:
DL-44 said:

A good chunk of them anyway...


Yup.

quote:
Nimraw said:

I would assume that there are similar cases across the world where you are
actually a member rather than a believer.


Yes, there are unfortunatly many more people who are registered as Christians than actually believe that Christ is the risen Savior. I just hope that changes soon.

Hey Nimraw, what do you find most appealing about those concerts?

quote:
WebShaman said:

but a small "tilthe" still exits, there doesn't seem to be any way to get out of
paying it.


So the "church" is forcing you to pay it even when you don't attend? That's terrible! Even forcing you to pay when you attend is bad. I know it won't count for much, but I want to apologize for the way some people can act when given resposiblity. I just wish some people can see and feel the cool stuff that is going on in my life from just accepting Jesus' gift. I wonder if some of those people are like the Pharisees of old... It wold make for an interesting conversation.

But Amikael is right, we need to get back on topic. I have a question is Jesus gay? Forget about Him thinking Homosexuality is bad or not, was He Himself one?

Another thing about the media. They can do pretty much anything. All you have to do is sugar coat a message or philosophy of yours, then air it on a famous show, and pretty soon people think it is okay. A movie I watched yesterday did that. They had two teenagers who had sex, then they didn't have any consequences, infact it actually helped them through some things, then they lived happily ever after. The thing is that these big time producers can add what they want and some people will say, "Well, it worked for them, why not me?" That is where the thought that homosexuality is a cool thing, a "new age" way of thinking. "Being gay is just another life style you can have much like any other." Is what many show are saying. They neglect to say that bad things happen from homosexual relationships. The media does that. Statistics and feelings can be swayed easily.

And that is my ramble for the day.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ehtheist
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-03-2005 05:12

How can any rational mind can take anything in any of the various bibles as having any credibility whatsoever?

Let alone to accept it as the immutable word of some airy myth.

Here is what, at it's best, is a collection of old shepherds tales and ancient myths, which has been imperfectly translated through a dozen languages, bowdelrized, re-written to reflect the biases of who knows how many petty despots and priests?

To sit smugly and claim these are the words of a god is the ultimate case of sphincter-vision.

To use such a questionable source to try to justify one's bigotry, surpasses stupidity and would be laughable if it were not so sad.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-03-2005 06:40
quote:
I have a question is Jesus gay? Forget about Him thinking Homosexuality is bad or not, was He Himself one?



Is? No. Or are you talking about someone named Jesus?

Was? We don't know. I think the common thought is that Jesus didn't engage in any sin, right? So he must have died a virgin? Carnal Knowledge and all that.

*shrugs*

Still doesn't mean that he was or was not homosexual. Was he attracted to men or women? I don't know.

quote:
They neglect to say that bad things happen from homosexual relationships.



Heh. Time for you to bring out your facts here! One could reasonably take the opposite stance here, as well - that bad things happen from heterosexual relationships, according to your...total lack of evidence to the contrary.

Ehtheist
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-03-2005 06:52

One of the advantages to not being religious is the lack of sin, it being a strictly relious concept.

Apparently, statistically, gay people make better parents than hetero's. A fact much ignored by 'focus on the family' sorts. If their focus was truly on the family and not their narrow view there-of, they would welcome everything which would improve family life.

The broad general statements made by some here show a remarkable ignorance of all views but their own.

As Webshamen points out, bad things happen in all classes and categories of relationships.

Furthermore, the religous make blanket statements that 'this is wrong' or 'that is bad' which are demonstrably false.

For them to say something like 'I believe this is wrong' or ' I believe that is bad ' would be more reasonable and an opportunity for them to be right for a change.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-03-2005 21:46
quote:
Ehtheist said:

Apparently, statistically, gay people make better parents than hetero's.


The fact of the matter is statistics can be biased, easily. Unless there is a widespread, well thought out, purely 3rd party survey, that statistic would be hard to come by (Don't try to argue with me on this. I know all about the little biasis of statistics, and would happily tell you about just a few things that could go wrong in a survey like this.) So just please don't use statistics that you don't know the full length of thier existance.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

Furthermore, the religous make blanket statements that 'this is wrong' or 'that
is bad' which are demonstrably false. For them to say something like 'I
believe this is wrong' or ' I believe that is bad ' would be more reasonable and
an opportunity for them to be right for a change.


Those statements are made based on the Bible. If they would just say "I think," then that would be thier own opinion. Everyone's opinion is different, so it really doesn't matter what you think on the matter, someone will disagree with you. Thus, "religious people" use something that is not their own opinion, and use that as the basis for their beliefs.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-03-2005 22:44

But it *still* comes down to this: nobody can agree on what the bible means by what it says, and any jackass can find parts of the bible to support what they want it to.

So even when you get your info from the bible, you are still only expressing YOUR OPINION on what you think the meaning is.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-03-2005 23:02

Well, I have to agree with you about statistics Gid. But that will probably be the last thing we agree upon.

Point is, gays have every bit as much chance of being good parents as heteros and perhaps a bit better as, in my experience, they tend to be quite a bit more tolerant than your average person. Perhaps this is due to having experienced so much intolerance in their lives.

DL-44's response is right on the mark. However there was something about your reply which struck me as very telling.

"...religious people" use something that is not their own opinion, and use that as the basis for their beliefs".

This merely confirms my opinion that the religious are encouraged neither to think, nor have any opinions not sanctioned by the church.

This is why the xian right will always be on the losong end of any rational argument. But then you guys always did admire to be martyrs.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-03-2005 23:08

Don't confuse the poor bloke more than he already is, DL! He's liable to have a conniption.

Seriously, Gideon has no idea what he really believes in - he is just following the stuff vomited out by Demogogues and reciting passages out of the Bible, and then putting that forth as his belief. He may truly believe he knows what he believes, but I think that the past months have proven without a doubt that he doesn't.

I believe his "faith" is so unstable, that he constantly needs to remind himself of it, to retain it. Someone who is confident and secure in their beliefs, and in their Faith, doesn't do such. Bugs is a prime example of this, and so are other members of the Asylum that I could mention.

As such, there is no purpose, whatsoever, in attempting to communicate with him for all one gets is parroted dung and recitals.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-04-2005 01:22

Say Web, were we seperated at birth?

I had to look back at the author, thought I was reading my own words.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-04-2005 15:25
quote:
DL-44 said:

nobody can agree on what the bible means by what it says


Do you know why? It is quite simple really. Perspective. Also a little bit of where you are in readings. Each person's perspective on the Bible is different. Also, to add to that, the Holy Spirit can point something new out each time you read the same passage. I love it.

quote:
DL-44 said:

you are still only expressing YOUR OPINION on what you think the meaning is.


Yes, that is correct. Most of the time though, that opinion is backed by scripture, and if any scripture would contradict that opinion, then you know it is not true.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

as much chance of being good parents as heteros


Well duh. They are people too. The only problem is with "tolerance" is that there is a line, and sometimes that line is crossed. I see it in the media a ton that the line is widening, and becomeing more of a gray scale then a line. People are doing things now that would be considered hanious 50 or even 30 years ago.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

religious are encouraged neither to think, nor have any opinions not sanctioned
by the church.


I don't think you got my message then. The Bible encourages thinking, learning, and striving to understand things. But one of my favorite verses is "the fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom, and knowledge of His Holy One is understanding." The Bible doesn't say to stop questioning, but just to look for the answers in the Words that God gave us. All the answers are there! Some people think you need philosopies and sciences and social activites to gain answers, but God has already lined out everything in His Word.

quote:
WebShaman said:

I believe his "faith" is so unstable


Actually, I question my faith, and what I am doing every day. It makes me stronger, because God has always given me an answer.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-04-2005 15:47
quote:
All the answers are there!



Poor child, no, they are not. They may be there for you but don't kid yourself - that doesn't apply to anyone else but you. You believe that all the answers are there - I know that they are not.

Where is that Warp engine that would be nice to have, to explore the Universe with? Show me the blueprint in the bible, please.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-04-2005 16:55

Circular reasoning is you forte Gid.

http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/circular.html

What is means is, you cannot justify the idiocy in the bible by quoting the idiocy in the bible.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-05-2005 19:00
quote:
WebShaman said:

You believe that all the answers are there - I know that they are
not.


Well, faith is the evidence of things unseen, and trust is about believing what someone close to you has told you. I have both. I have faith that things I do not see with my eyes (but percieve with other senses) are at work here. I trust that the One who saved me is not lying when He said that all I needed was Jesus. (And WS, just for future reference, you cannot know the Bible if you haven't read it for yourself.)

quote:
Ehtheist said:

What is means is, you cannot justify the idiocy in the bible by quoting the
idiocy in the bible.


One of the rhetorical fallicies. Very good! I was waiting for someone to catch that. You are absolutely correct. Circular reasoning is something that many teachers of the Law are guilty of doing (especially those tele-evangelists. I love 'em, but boy are they wrong on some minute things). One little thing, though, is that the Bible is not one book, but a collection of books. That is one very shaky cop-out to stand on. The real truth of the matter is that nothing can be proven for certain. Nearly everything takes faith. You can argue with me on that, but while you are doing so, you have to have faith that your post will come through .

As for the infallicy of the Bible, there are many different reasons out side of the Bible. One major one is how it has stayed intact, another is martyr support, and there are a few others I could list if you would like me to. The point of the matter is that there is more than enough proof for me in my own life, that I believed the Bible before I went to Church or read anything about it (I was a Bible reading Christian for about a year before I went to church or did anything afiliated with church. What I have is from my own experiences, not some religious spewing of a man.)

That reminds me of something. It was a pretty good point made in a book I was reading. A pastor was asked to go to a formal debate about Atheism and Theism by an Atheist. More of a challenge, really. The pastor said he would, if the man could find someone whose life was restored by Athiesm. Well, sure enough, the man finally found someone, and walked into the debate with a teen mother (I think). But the Pastor had a couple hundred men and women with him, plus a list of a few thousand whose lives had been changed by Jesus: Alcoholics, teen mothers, murderers, rapists, drug dealers. The hurt and defeated. The Athiest decided to withdrawn the debate.

That was a pretty big tangent, and don't let it distract you from the issue at hand, but it is a good point.

One other thing, I would suggest that you read and try to comprehend my post and not discard it as "religious dogma" or "spewing out what others have said." When you do that you just show that you are one of those people who are narrow minded, and don't want to take seriously what another has said. If you do not decide to take others seriously, why should they take you seriously?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 02-05-2005 19:05)

(Edited by Gideon on 02-05-2005 19:07)

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 02-05-2005 21:46
quote:
Yes, that is correct. Most of the time though, that opinion is backed by scripture, and if any scripture would contradict that opinion, then you know it is not true.



Yes... then let's get to 'editing' shall we.

Hey... look! We're down to two pages. Took what...about an hour? Oh I forgot... we went for coffee.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-06-2005 03:16

"One major one is how it has stayed intact,"

Point is it hasn't. I posted elsewhere on why the silly accretion of old shepherds tales doesn't have any but the vauguest relation to whatever the original versions were. Add to that the different churches which have edited out entire books and chapters because they didn't agree with the writing and...well, most people could see the absolute fallacy of thinking the thing has remained unchanged for 2000 years or so.

Hell, the various xian cults can't even agree on one bible today.

Sorry Gid, you are treading water again.

What the hell you mean by "Martyr support" I have no idea.

Your little parable about the pastor and the atheist is typical of the kinds of stories xians tell each other late at night when reality gets uncomfortably close and they need to buck up their courage.

I note you 'heard about' it. Heresay carries little weight.

I do read and fully comprehend your posts, but I find it hard to take seriously anyone who believes in mythological beings in the sky that only ther 'saved' can be aware of, of cherubim, serafim, devils, demons, hells and heavens.

Do you know, there is more physical evidence to prove the existance of Camelot than there is of xist? And Camelot is an acknowledged myth.

If you want to be taken seriously, speak seriously.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-06-2005 10:46
quote:
And WS, just for future reference, you cannot know the Bible if you haven't read it for yourself.



You really do suffer from memory lapse, don't you?

I told you, I used to be a christian (and I used to go to church). I wasn't all that different in my faith than you are now. I have read the bible many times, pondered it, studied it, not only alone, but in study groups.

But I already told you that I had read the bible.

And for future reference - homosexuality has nothing to do with the bible.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-07-2005 15:13
quote:
NoJive said:

Yes... then let's get to 'editing' shall we.


You know, you are right. You can edit the Bible if you want too. No one forces you to believe anything in the Bible (and if they do, they have no right to). You can believe what you want. If you think Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech should be in the Bible, then take your holy paste and slap that thing in there. And if you don't like what Revelation says, then take your blessed scissors and cut that thing out of there. Just hope that the curse in Revelation isn't true. The point is, you can believe what you want to believe, and you are only answerable to God in the end. Just remember that God never intended to be "politically correct."

quote:
WebShaman said:

And for future reference - homosexuality has nothing to do with the bible.


quote:
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,


quote:
1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,


quote:
WebShaman said:

But I already told you that I had read the bible.


But just becuase you read it once, does not mean you know it. And if you did intensive Bible Study, you should have known what God really says. To know God is to know the Bible. You have to know God first, then you can know the Bible. Prayer, and Bible study bring you to know God. One of my favortie verses, again:

quote:
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisodm, and knowledge of His Holy One is Understanding.


quote:
Ehtheist said:

old shepherds tales


If you would do some research, you would know that some disciples were fishermen, but one was a doctor, and one was a tax collector. They were not all uneducated men. Paul, the author of most of the NT books, was a Pharisee. They could read and write, and were the scholars of the Jewish community. Jesus had diversity, believe it or not.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

doesn't have any but the vauguest relation to whatever the original versions
were.


Do you know about the dead sea scrolls? They have been discovered recently, and are being translated. Those scrolls have many of the oldest known written texts of the Bible. Amazingly, when they were translated it was found that there were miraculously few mistakes between the Dead Sea version and the version in most Bibles today.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

Add to that the different churches which have edited out entire books and
chapters because they didn't agree with the writing and...


Well, of course they did. But that is the privledge of those churches. They can be ignorant if they want. But the fact remains that the Bible that I have is an English version of the Bible from about 1800 years ago.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

Hell, the various xian cults can't even agree on one bible today.


On one English Bible. As I said, the English versions (KJV, NKJV, NIV, etc.) are what are in question, not the Bible. Certain people think that one translation does a better job at portraying what the author was saying than another. It is all about translation. I bet if you ask any one of them, they will say that they agree that the original texts are infallible. (This is translation, and if you have ever done something like that before, you would understand the problem.)

quote:
Ehtheist said:

What the hell you mean by "Martyr support" I have no idea.


Many people who died in the 1500s to try and preserve the Bible, and get an English copy to normal people so that they could read it; Martyrs

quote:
Ehtheist said:

Heresay carries little weight.


Well, in that case I would like for you to post a written documentation of all your sources of information after each of your posts.

I try when I can Etheist, but my brain has limitations. I am sorry.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

only ther 'saved' can be aware of


Actually, many people who are unsaved are aware of them too. They just don't put 2 and 2 together.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

more physical evidence to prove the existance of Camelot


Well, sure. Proving that God exists would kinda null faith wouldn't it? I read a book from a statician who tried to calculate the probablity of God. It was interesting, and he came out to, I think, 67 or 64%. Very interesting. Of course, then he went on to way that even if it was just .0001%, that the infinitly good outcomes from that belief make it the most favorable choice anyway. I don't think God likes the "well, I guess I'll believe" faith, but it makes for an interesting read.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

If you want to be taken seriously, speak seriously.


I do. I also take others seriously in the hope that they will take me seriously. I can't just expect others to take me seriously if I don't do the same.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 02-07-2005 15:22)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-07-2005 16:22
quote:
quote:WebShaman said:

And for future reference - homosexuality has nothing to do with the bible.


quote:1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,


quote:1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,


quote:WebShaman said:

But I already told you that I had read the bible.


But just becuase you read it once, does not mean you know it. And if you did intensive Bible Study, you should have known what God really says. To know God is to know the Bible. You have to know God first, then you can know the Bible. Prayer, and Bible study bring you to know God. One of my favortie verses, again:



The bible does NOT determine whether or not someone is heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual, etc. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with it. It is just a book.

It may pass judgement on it, but that is something entirely different. Why are there things that occur in the world today, that are not covered in the bible? Like cloning, for instance? Why wasn't this covered Gideon? I'll tell you why - because the bible is not the word of god, it is the word of religous men. And back then, they had no idea that man would be able to clone things. No answer for this one - no rule to go by. God was strangely silent on cloning. Same thing goes for abortion.

And I didn't say I had read it "only" once - you need to learn how to read, as well as add. And I don't believe in god anymore, Gideon. What you are saying is the purest of crap. Studying the bible brought me slowly to know that any literal acceptance of it is clearly in conflict with science fact. And then it comes down to subjective acceptance. And that can be warped into just about any form, depending on who is doing the translation. My ancestors created stories that are just as valuable, subjectively. Therefore, the bible is just a book for me. And therefore, not all the answers are in it.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-08-2005 03:57

Good response WS.

Gid I am sure you are serious when you speak of the bible and your faith in it and that mythical being.

But to defend and quote the thing in it's own defense does not make you look as though you are serious, merely dogmatic.

It is hard to accept you have a copy of an 1800 year old bible in English. English not having been a spoken language at the time.

It is impossible to accept that anything which has been translated as often as it has retains anything of it's original content.

As for the Qumran chronicles, I am currently wading through the translations and don't find much but a ranting, militiaristic religious sect bent on furthering it's own ends.

In fact there is so little remarable or particularly germane to xianity about them, one wonders why the Catholic church tried for 30 years to prevent their publication. BTW, they were discovered in 1947 which is hardly recent.

Perhaps your disciples were mostly 'educated' men, however the OT yarns predate the alleged xist by some hundreds of years and it is upon these old shepherds tales (too bad the humour of that escapes you) that your NT is based.

I am sure you have some great emotional or psychological need to believe in this tripe and I hope the faith provides for you whatever solace you are seeking.

But you need to speak in a more rational manner when discussing religion. To make an out and out statement that 'this is such and so' without qualifiers invites others to push your face in the falsity of your allegations.

Perhaps then, some will take you seriously.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 02-08-2005 17:34

I'm alittle late on getting involved in this topic .. my only question would be .. why is a story book involved in this conversation? .. a single book has never influenced nor shall it ever influence the way people wish to live their lives .. for that matter .. if those that follow their book would look around alittle .. they may notice there are Gay-Christians and Catholics already among them .. not to mention Mormons anyway


let's not forget what our founders of this country included in their vision of this great country

'religion and government are to be seperate bodies neither one influencing the other'
[not a direct quote .. just a single interpurtation(sp) of the bill of Rights.Amendment I]

this came to be because we as 'outlaws' to the Royals of england were tired of the religious bigotry we had dealt with on the 'Mother land'

on doing a little research I found this - Autobiography by Thomas Jefferson
the autobiography is very interesting but I was looking to quote this paragraph

"In 1769, I became a member of the legislature by the choice of the county in which I live, & continued in that until it was closed by the revolution. I made one effort in that body for the permission of the emancipation of slaves, which was rejected: and indeed, during the regal government, nothing liberal could expect success. Our minds were circumscribed within narrow limits by an habitual belief that it was our duty to be subordinate to the mother country in all matters of government, to direct all our labors in subservience to her interests, and even to observe a bigoted intolerance for all religions but hers. The difficulties with our representatives were of habit and despair, not of reflection & conviction. Experience soon proved that they could bring their minds to rights on the first summons of their attention. But the king's council, which acted as another house of legislature, held their places at will & were in most humble obedience to that will: the Governor too, who had a negative on our laws held by the same tenure, & with still greater devotedness to it: and last of all the Royal negative closed the last door to every hope of amelioration. "

interesting read from a liberals POV .. and this country is over 200 yrs old .. yet this liberal POV of jefferson's has yet to really take effect this countries POV .. interesting read I must say for atleast myself

.::. cEll .::. 513

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-09-2005 02:59
quote:
WebShaman said:

And I didn't say I had read it "only" once


I know, I was just trying to prove a point through exageration. Every time I open the Bible, I learn something new. You can read it your whole life time, and still not have it all learned. There is a bunch of stuff in there.

You are right though. A good question is, why isn't there more? If this is a book about life, and how to live it, why isn't there more? Good question, one that many theologians are probably stewing over right now. But the thing I come back to is that if God gave us all the answers in one book, 1.) it would be too large for carriage and reading for that matter, 2.) that would take the fun out of learning. If God told you all the answers up front, what would be the point of living and learning?

quote:
WebShaman said:

The bible does NOT determine whether or not someone is heterosexual or
homosexual or bisexual, etc.


Well, it may not give the details (possibly for the said reasons above) but it does give the overall concepts. People are homosexual, rapists, murderers, thieves, liars, etc. beacuse of the Fall of Man. What Adam did pretty much ruined it for the rest of us.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

But to defend and quote the thing in it's own defense does not make you look as
though you are serious, merely dogmatic.


Well, I defend with a quote when it's words are attacked directly. When someone says George Bush is a nice guy who went to war for the liberty of the Iraqi people, someone might counter using his own words that it was for the threat against the US. Same concept with the Bible.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

It is hard to accept you have a copy of an 1800 year old bible in English.
English not having been a spoken language at the time.


You are right, that would be hard to accept since English came after French, and French wasn't even born yet. But what I guess I was trying to get across is that the version of the Bible that I read is an English translation of the Hebrew/Latin/Greek/Aramic Bible that was read in the 300s. The Bible cannon was pretty much set around 200AD. It hasn't changed since then.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

It is impossible to accept that anything which has been translated as often as
it has retains anything of it's original content.


You are right, ofcourse. Something that is a translation of a translation should have many errors. The Bible was not actually translated into English until the 1500s. Up until then it had just been the originals copied down. That English version was the KJV. The NIV is actually a revisitation of the old texts. The Bible I have has foot notes that announce if old texts do not have a certain verse or word. Surprisingly, that seldom happens in the OT, and even rarer in the NT.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

Qumran chronicles


I don't think I have heard of that before. What is it?

quote:
Ehtheist said:

however the OT yarns predate the alleged xist by some hundreds of years


And if you would look, many of those books were again written by scholars and pharisees, and prophets. There were even a few books written by kings!

quote:
Ehtheist said:

that your NT is based.


You just pointed out one other test that books had to pass before they were accepted into the NT. Good job.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

I am sure you have some great emotional or psychological need


Everyone has a great need. And if you say you don't, then yours is spreading falsehoods.

quote:
Ehtheist said:

I hope the faith provides for you whatever solace you are seeking.


Oh, it provides more than enough solace. But I wasn't really seeking solace when I got saved. It was more of a quick death to get away from the bad stuff I did. But that is a different story...

quote:
Ehtheist said:

But you need to speak in a more rational manner


You are right again. I do need to rationalize my arguments more. The problem is that they are rationalized with all the knowledge that I have swimming in my head, but when it comes time to write stuff down, the details seem to get lost on the way. Bad problem that is... But you will be happy to know that I am working on it. I am learing rhetoric and fallicies (interesting stuff, you wouldn't believe how many people make fallicies all the time). But I suggest that the pot also get on the band wagon, because rationality comes in many forms, and just because one does not have the same thought process as another, does not make one irrational.

Your right, Ramm, that was a good read. I have just got out of a unit in English about the colonial period and all the bad stuff that went on there. Jefferson was a very intelligent man. You are right, also that there are homosexual Christians. A sad fact, but true. Some people can get led away from purity. It happens, happened to me a while ago actually. But there is the chance that they can come back. It also has something to do with basis in the literal Genesis, because as soon as that is taken literally, Homosexuality is wrong. But unlike some people in the past I will not mention who wanted to burn homosexuals (in the US too you know), Christians are called to love, not hate. I love people. Homosexual, murderer, thief or liar, I love them. Jesus loves them no matter what they did. That does not make it right, but Jesus still loves them.

quote:
RammStein said:

'religion and government are to be seperate bodies neither one
influencing the
other'


As it should be. But the government has no right to be limiting any religion, and that is what is happening with Christianity. Maybe not much, and I can only speak for what is happening in my school, but it is happening. Not to mention other countries, and all the real martyrs there. Wow!

quote:
RammStein said:

let's not forget what our founders of this country included in their vision of
this great country


Did you know that the majority of the founding fathers were Christian? Something that I just learned is that George Washington, considered the founder of our country, was well known for how much he prayed? Talk about a solid foundation for our country!

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-09-2005 04:57

Where to start?

[quote]Well, I defend with a quote when it's words are attacked directly.

This is not defence it is parroting dogma.

quote:
the version of the Bible that I read is an English translation of the Hebrew/Latin/Greek/Aramic Bible that was read in the 300s. The Bible cannon was pretty much set around 200AD. It hasn't changed since then.

You left out a few languages it has been translated through in between. You also ignore the fact it has been re-written by every petty despot and ambitious priest since who know how long. Each one altering the thing to reflect their own ends or biases. These would be your kings, scholars, pharisees etc.

phar·i·see ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fr-s)
n.
Pharisee A member of an ancient Jewish sect that emphasized strict interpretation and observance of the Mosaic law in both its oral and written form.
A hypocritically self-righteous person.

[Middle English pharise, from Old English fariseus, and from Old French pharise both from Late Latin pharsaeus, from Greek pharsaios, from Aramaic priayy, pl. of pri, separate, from pra, to separate. See pr in Semitic Roots.]

BTW a king is only the biggest, baddest, toughest, meanest guy on the block, or his descendant.

For you to believe that book you read has come down unchanged for over 2500 years...well..I have a nice big bridge for sale, interested?

You consider yourself a biblical scholar and don't know about Qumran?

I'll leave it up to you to do some research. One learns better that way.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 02-09-2005 08:58

I gotta go, but I just gotta say that I *loved* this quote:

quote:
We're heading toward what's called "hyper-democracy" - a political system which knows no values other then liberty and equality.



*Amen*

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 02-09-2005 09:02

By the way, you guys would love this book (available for reading online)-

Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-09-2005 09:52

Gideon, you are so full of it, it is leaking out of every oriface. First you say

quote:
All the answers are there!

and then you totally contradict yourself by saying

quote:
but the thing I come back to is that if God gave us all the answers in one book, 1.) it would be too large for carriage and reading for that matter, 2.) that would take the fun out of learning. If God told you all the answers up front, what would be the point of living and learning?



I'm sorry but no-one is taking you seriously with illogic like that, outright dishonest statements that even contradict your own stances.

quote:
But just becuase you read it once, does not mean you know it. And if you did intensive Bible Study, you should have known what God really says. To know God is to know the Bible.



Bullshit. That is the biggest load you have dumped on the boards to date. Even within the Xian faith, theologians disagree as to exactly what "God really says". "To know god is to know the bible" - hooboy. Umm, Gideon, EXAMINE your own religion before making stupid statements like this! You even admit to that here

quote:
Do you know why? It is quite simple really. Perspective. Also a little bit of where you are in readings. Each person's perspective on the Bible is different. Also, to add to that, the Holy Spirit can point something new out each time you read the same passage. I love it.

So you admit that it is the perspective on the bible that determines what it means. In other words, just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less. You know, I can read the back of a cereal box a million times - it doesn't mean that I know how it tastes or whether I will like it or not.

quote:
I have faith that things I do not see with my eyes (but percieve with other senses) are at work here.

What other senses?

And you bear false witness so often, you must be begging for forgiveness every night, Gideon. First you say

quote:
nd WS, just for future reference, you cannot know the Bible if you haven't read it for yourself.

. I then showed you that was in error, and then you post

quote:
But just becuase you read it once, does not mean you know it.

Then you say

quote:
I know, I was just trying to prove a point through exageration.



In other words, you lied through your teeth, and you did it purposefully. You bore false witness, once again. Why should I even make an effort to try to follow anything you say, when you keep bearing false witness purposefully?

Then you say

quote:
No one forces you to believe anything in the Bible (and if they do, they have no right to). You can believe what you want.

Well, if that is true, then "Creationism" doesn't belong in the classroom, does it? You agree that "they" have no right to force one to believe it.

And I said

quote:
The bible does NOT determine whether or not someone is heterosexual or
homosexual or bisexual, etc.

and you side-step the issue with this totally assinine post

quote:
Well, it may not give the details (possibly for the said reasons above) but it does give the overall concepts. People are homosexual, rapists, murderers, thieves, liars, etc. beacuse of the Fall of Man. What Adam did pretty much ruined it for the rest of us.



You fall into the same old "trap" that most of your ilk do : whoever said I was talking about just humans? I am talking about animals in general. Homosexuality is a now well documented natural occurance in animals (of which we humans are but one). Nowhere in the bible is this explained.

You have no proof of this, whatsoever. None. Nada. Zippo. The passages in the bible are not factual evidence in this case. And that is beyond the point - the bible does not determine one's sexual inclinings, whatsoever. It only provides a parable for how it came about and it passes judgement over it.

You know, my leg is getting tired of kicking your behind all over the place, and I am getting tired of pointing out huge, glaring holes in your, well, what passes for reasoning in your head, and just the plain outright lying that you engage in. You have more than demonstrated that you are not a serious discussion partner dedicated to a dialog, but a pre-programmed liar. You fail to back up your positions, screw up your own points with contradictory statements, and quote bible passages and expect us to "accept" that as fact (which it is not), and you even admit that it is not fact! but opinion.

Take you seriously? Grow up first, learn to communicate honestly, and stop contradicting yourself. I'm done with you. I'm tired of having my words mistreated by you, and having to point it out again and again. I warned you about that before. You apparently didn't listen.

(Edited by WebShaman on 02-09-2005 21:40)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 02-09-2005 15:00
quote:
Bullshit. That is the biggest load you have dumped on the boards to date. Even within the Xian faith, theologians disagree as to exactly what "God really says". "To know god is to know the bible" - hooboy. Umm, Gideon, EXAMINE your own religion before making stupid statements like this! You even admit to that here



Being a xian also, I can agree with you Web, and disagree with Gideon's view of the " To know god is to know the bible" One can know the God of the bible without reading scripture but it helps to know him better if your bible read. I would phrase it like "To read scripture is to know who God was and is"

Gideon, I believe your view is unscriptual. In the last chapter of John,(NT) it states to us that the knowledge about God cannot be contained in a written book. Great theologians 2000 plus years later are still trying to open keys to the meaning of scripture.

Come on Web, your impatience is showing. Don't throw in the towel just yet. Gonna get some more microwave popcorn.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-09-2005 17:11

I can appreciate your frustration WS. However, there is some value in continuing to allow the Gids of the world remind us just how stupid blind faith in anything is and this includes political parties.

As well, they are usually good for a belly laugh or two.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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