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briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 01-29-2005 14:45

I saw an aritcle in USA Today that said the Animal Planet is going to air a 90 minute special about four types of dragons, exploring why different ancient cultures have similar images of dragons. They're going to have computer animation and special effects and it all looks very interesting. But what got me thinking was this

quote:
What I love about this special is that it's hypothetical, yet it's based on true scientific facts.

Animal Planet's Maureen Smith



I can see some people (with the reasoning power of someone like, say, Gideon) taking this to mean that Dragons were real. A whole movement, maybe even a sect, could grow from this. And we could have a huge discussion on the Asylum explaining to him what that statement realy meant, with him posting responses ignoring all of the facts, and quoting a web site like answersindragons.com with pseudo-scientists making the case for huge flying fire-breathing lizards.




(Edited by briggl on 01-29-2005 14:51)

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 01-29-2005 15:28

Four types of dragons?
I'm only familiar with two: eastern and western.
Any idea how they are breaking them down?

We 'watch' quite a bit of Animal Planet around here.
Might have to keep my eyes open for it.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 01-29-2005 16:48

Now wait just a minute! Dragons were real, you see - they just all got killed off back in the Dark Ages.

Everyone knows that!

Where do you think all those legends come from?

Sheesh.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 01-29-2005 19:38

I found a link to the article on their online web stie:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2005-01-27-coming-attractions_x.htm

You have to scroll down to get to it.

It will air March 20 at 8:00 PM (ET). I don't know anything more than what is in those two paragraphs.


Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 01-29-2005 23:09

Cool. I love dragons, some of the folk lore surrounding them is very interesting: slaying dragons, damsels in distress. Some very nice stories. Well, I'm definitly going to keep my eyes open for that Briggl, thanks.

As for taking dragons for real, as in the fire-breating, fying dragons, even I have more sense than that, Briggl. But you have to remember that all stories have a base in something real. There may not be any big foots running around, but maybe the first one was just some big hairy guy taking his morning walk in the woods. Then some people got a hold of it and exploded it way out of proportion. I did a speech about big foot once (purely as a joke mind you), but when I was doing some research for it I found some hilarious stuff. It is amazing what people can peice together when they have the time and drive to do so. Like that David Hasselhof thread not too long ago.

Here is the part that you are going to ridicule me for, but dinosaurs, or at least the term "dinosaur", was invented in the mid 1800s. What do you think people called giant lizards before then? There are even some dragons alive today.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Sangreal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: the league of Professional Mop Jockeys
Insane since: Apr 2004

posted posted 01-31-2005 14:53

Dragons are real. Had one for a pet. Granted it was only 14 inches long, didn't breathe fire, was flightless and committed suicide by starvation but it was a dragon nonetheless and can be bought in pet stores.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

Blaise
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

posted posted 01-31-2005 15:11

There's even a saint named for defeating one! ever heard of St George!!! hello!

Sangreal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: the league of Professional Mop Jockeys
Insane since: Apr 2004

posted posted 01-31-2005 15:21

If dragons aren't real than niether is George Bush...D@M^ Bush is real.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

Sangreal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: the league of Professional Mop Jockeys
Insane since: Apr 2004

posted posted 01-31-2005 15:22

So are giants and gnome

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 02-08-2005 17:55

I'd share a 'story' of dragons but then this type of information isn't printed anymore for a reason .. and then again it's just fantasy too .. hehe

.::. cEll .::. 513

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-24-2005 23:13
quote:
Gideon said:

There may not be any big foots running around...


Or there just may be such a thing! There is a lot of forest in the Pacific Northwest of North America where people rarely venture. I still think there is something to the BigFoot stories. It would not surprise me in the least if we find proof positive one of these days. Ref: http://www.bfro.net/

I don't know about whether stories about dragons are based in a real creature or not. This Animal Planet special sounds very interesting. I would also like to see how they come up with four categories of dragons.

I also couldn't help thinking about how virtually every culture on this planet has a myth about a great flood. I think it is very likely there was an actual ancient flood that spawned these stories. In fact, there is physical evidence that supports a theory that the Black Sea used to be a fresh water lake that was separated from the ocean by a narrow land bridge that gave way around 7,500 years ago.
Ref: http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah.htm

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 02-24-2005 23:14)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-25-2005 01:53

I personally think the Flood stories come from the rising of the oceans with the ending of the Ice Age. A lot of land disappeared, and much of it was inhabited at the time. The uncovering of those ancient cities on the coast of India that got revealed by the Tsunami recently is evidence of this.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-25-2005 03:08

I like that theory of WS'.

The Black Sea story is well covered by National Geographic by those who wish to search for it. It seems to make a great deal of sense.

There are flood stories in every culture, but I believe most pre-date the Noah myth.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 04:28

What's interesting about the Hebrew flood story is how it links the wickedness of humans to the reason for the flood. I believe *that* is what sets it apart from most of the other stories. I know that my creationist friends focus mostly on whether it happened exactly as told in Genesis but I think that focus is misplaced.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 02-25-2005 08:50

well, if I remember correctly, the babylonic flood stored contained the 'caused by evil' element as well.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 13:53

yeah, most version of such stories that I have read point to at least some human shortcoming as the reason.

Of course, almost every calamity throughout human history has been blamed on us humans pissing off some god somewhere

That *must* be why bad things happen....after all.....

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-25-2005 15:24

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

It is clearly an attempt at control by whoever the writer was. Scare the hell out of people and perhaps they will behave.

Ooops! Abraham, hey Abe! We have to invent a hell.

Some religion where the adherants are commanded to be 'god fearing'. Again, if I were to invent a god, it would be a pleasant imaginary friend.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 02-25-2005 15:34

If you can't make'em squirm... they for sure won't 'pay.'

You can owe a friend 5 bucks for a very long time and they likely won't say anything....
send a 'heavy' around and you'll get interest on your 5'er. =)

DmS
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Sthlm, Sweden
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 15:49

On a side note (but connected to the myths & religions)...
Bugimus:

quote:
I also couldn't help thinking about how virtually every culture on this planet has a myth about a great flood. I think it is very likely there was an actual ancient flood that spawned these stories. In fact, there is physical evidence that supports a theory that the Black Sea used to be a fresh water lake that was separated from the ocean by a narrow land bridge that gave way around 7,500 years ago.


If you (or anyone else for that matter) are fascinated by that type of things you should really, really erad this book: Decipher by Stel Pavlou http://uk.geocities.com/stelpavlou/decipher.html for his personal page and http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743403843/qid=1109342828/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_27_1/026-0175990-5016445 for amazon.

It's without doubt the very best book I've read!
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?The Internet treats censorship as a malfunction and routes around it.? (-Barlow, John Perry) }-

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-26-2005 01:24
quote:
Ehtheist said:

Some religion where the adherants are commanded to be 'god fearing'.
Again, if I
were to invent a god, it would be a pleasant imaginary friend.


Well, my God is my best friend, and not because He smites my enemies, or even that He has so much power. He is a true friend. Someone who listens and loves me. He even died for me. I don't know about you, but those are qualities of a true friend to me. You can say whatever want about Jesus (believe me, it has been said before, and will be said again) but He still loves me, and I Him. And you, believe it or not.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-26-2005 02:47

Gid, I was in a discussion with another bible thumper some time ago on another forum.

He was extolling the virtues of prayer. I advised him he was talking to nothing. He declared he would show me and pray me dead.

I feel fine thanks.

I am glad you imaginary friend loves you. Someone should.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

(Edited by Ehtheist on 02-26-2005 02:49)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-27-2005 01:12
quote:
Ehtheist said:

He declared he would show me and pray me dead.

That's the sort of thing that just makes me want to give up sometimes. What a putz! Oh well, on we go.

DmS, you posted a link to that book before, I remember. It sounds pretty interesting... 2012 is coming up fast But I'll bet you anything that it will come and pass and another prediction about the End will have bitten the dust just like all the others so far.

You know, I've got a stack of books that I've been meaning to read one of these days... I am quite tempted to just go to amazon.com and add this one to the heap. If I get to it, I will definitely let you know. I just hope I can do it before 2012!!! LOL!!!

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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-27-2005 01:16)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-27-2005 04:09

Hehe...man, that is funny!

"Wait! Wait, you can't end the world yet...I haven't read the book yet, darn it!"

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-27-2005 04:17

Seems to me the end came in 2000, which the numerically challeneged took to be the start of the new millenium, instead of the last year of the old.

So we are all just here in limbo now I suppose.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-27-2005 05:15
quote:
Ehtheist said:

I feel fine thanks.


I'm glad you feel fine. You know my SS teacher likes to say that some people view God as the Santa Clause in the sky: whatever you pray for, He will grant.
"Hey God, I want a new car"
"Sure"
"Hey God, I want some hot sex tonight"
"Sure"
"Hey God, I want you to kill my enemies"
"Sure"
"Hey God..."
You get my point. Do you think that it really works that way? Many people do. Prayer is used more to know the will of God. Sure you can ask Him for things, but He may not decided to give them to you for many reasons. I love this verse:

quote:
Matthew 7:8-11
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


That is what drives many people. But what I like to ask is this: "If a son asks his father for a serpent, does a father give him one?" God may not grant all your wishes because those wishes might harm you or somone else. Or there are other reasons, but that is a whole sermon...

quote:
Ehtheist said:

I am glad you imaginary friend loves you. Someone should.


My imaginary friend used to love me too. But I don't need her anymore because now I have a friend who is real and actually loves me.

That books sounds like a good read Dms. I think I have heard about that 2012 thing before. I heard that it could be the end of the world, or just a huge bend. I don't really think that God needs to come back and cleanse the world. I think we are doing a pretty good job of destroying ourselves. Hey, maybe 2012 is the WWIII nuclear holocaust date. Wouldn't that be somethin'?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-27-2005 05:36

The end of the world has been predicted more often that you have had hot meals. The most recent failure was the year 2000 fury. Not only wrong, they had the wrong year too.

Personally, I like a nice bit of BBQ'd serpent to a piece of fish anytime.

Gid, your new friend is imaginary too, but don't tell anyone.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-27-2005 05:38

Well, who said the serpent was BBQ'd? Maybe it is a fillet?

The end of the world has been proclaimed many times by now. I think that we humans are dong a lovely job of taxing the Earth as it is now. Sooner or later we are all going to kill ourselves, with or without the wrath of God.

Imaginary friends have to be imagined by the imaginer. My friend was not imagined by me.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 02-27-2005 06:11)

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-27-2005 06:20

Imaginary, my dear deluded Gideon, is that which we cannot see, or touch, though some may 'see' that whch they imagine and 'hear' it...no one else can...unless they are sharing some sort of mass hysteria...or very good drugs.

You cannot show me your imaginary friend or take us out for a beer and some seared snake.

Therefore he is not real and very likely never was.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-27-2005 06:40
quote:
Ehtheist said:

Imaginary, my dear deluded Gideon, is that which we cannot see, or touch,


I can't see gravity, or touch it for that matter, is that imaginary?

quote:
Ehtheist said:

You cannot show me your imaginary friend or take us out for a beer and some
seared snake.


Have you tried? I don't like beer, but I could go for some seared snake about now.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 02-27-2005 06:45

Gravity is a concept Gid, a concept invented by man to identify the consistence force that we can observe and test. Therefore gravity is just a name given to a factual force that holds the universe together.

And yes we can observe gravity. =)

You should really really stop asking random questions for the sake of argument and think about them yourself.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-27-2005 06:54

Just like Blue is a name given to a certain color on the spectrum? Then all things are relative to the person in question, because my blue could be different from your blue.

I think about them then ask them (it is kinda hard to do it the other way around, then things get messed up in the transition of the question from my brain to the keyboard). They are used to spark discussion. Questions can answer questions too. Did you know that answering questions with questions was one way that many great ancient philosophers got thier students thinking? Great concept if they are willing to participate.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 02-27-2005 06:58

_double_ignore_

(Edited by Ruski on 02-27-2005 07:01)

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 02-27-2005 07:00

Ohh man...no wonder you are so confused....ehh.

I just don't have as much patience as some people around here to spoon feed you.

Good luck with your search for rationalism. I hope you find it.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-27-2005 14:00
quote:
Then all things are relative to the person in question, because my blue could be different from your blue.



This is why we have the Scientific Method. To identify what exactly "Blue" is, so that everyone can be sure they have the same "Blue" - and not yellow, red, green, etc, etc.

And no, when using the Scientific Method, your Blue is my Blue. If not, then it is not Blue at all that you are seeing, but another color. It is not relative to the person in question. The person in question may perceive it differently, but that doesn't change what Blue is.

And the above is the problem that you are having. You cannot seem to graps this concept, or do not wish to. But that doesn't change the Scientific fact that Blue is Blue.

We have created methods to measure Blue, we have cataloged it and it is not in question. It is most certainly not "realtive" to the person in question!

And yes, Ruski, that is the conclusion that just about everyone here has come to in consideration of Gideon.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 02-27-2005 15:05

Wow, this was a thread about a TV show about dragons coming up on Animal Planet. How did it degenerate into this?


Duninu
Neurotic (0) Inmate
Newly admitted

From:
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-02-2005 21:30
quote:
This is why we have the Scientific Method. To identify what exactly "Blue" is, so that everyone can be sure they have the same "Blue" - and not yellow, red, green, etc, etc.And no, when using the Scientific Method, your Blue is my Blue. If not, then it is not Blue at all that you are seeing, but another color. It is not relative to the person in question.



Actually if we think about it blue to one person could really be green to another and not because they feel like calling it green. As far as I'm aware (which isn't much cause I haven't had the time to look for research) not many people have bothered to cover whether people are seeing the same wavelengths or not. Children are taught to say this is blue and that is green, but they could be seeing completely different colors. Different people truely do percieve things differently, thats nature. I could be wrong, because I don't have any evidence to support or dissprove my theory, but thats all it is anyway, a theory.

Now back to dragons. Dragons are interesting to study in my opinion. People tend to say they are real, and give real definitions of them in the modern day world. While others say they never existed; were a myth. And yet some say they existed but died out long ago. Well the interesting thing about dragons is that they are myth. Myths and legends normally have some sort of back ground to start them, then get completely distorted. Now if we either prove or disprove such myth it looses its quality and prestige. While we gain knowlege of our past, we lose entertainment of our present. Keep this in mind as you go off looking into the reality of dragons.

I tend to believe that dragons, or what people believed as dragons, were real at one point in time. Otherwise so much folk lore would not have them in them. Folk lore is acient history of people who lived during that time. But I am not interested in proving the lore right or wrong, because that would slightly ruin my idea on dragons.

Anyway, it should be an interesting show to watch. I am rather curious on what they classify as the four types of dragons. I can think of maybe three at most. The chinese worm like dragon, the classical european dragon, and the wygar (maybe spelt different) which was sorta a two legged dragon. As for the fourth I am completely baffled.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-02-2005 23:24
quote:
As far as I'm aware (which isn't much cause I haven't had the time to look for research) not many people have bothered to cover whether people are seeing the same wavelengths or not. Children are taught to say this is blue and that is green, but they could be seeing completely different colors. Different people truely do percieve things differently, thats nature. I could be wrong, because I don't have any evidence to support or dissprove my theory, but thats all it is anyway, a theory.



Yes, you are wrong.

You see, it doesn't matter exactly what the children, etc., see. We have identified the color Blue (a certain wavelength of the light spectrum) - you can see this in Photoshop, for example - Blue is identified by a certain Hex number, for example (RGB). There are varying types of Blue (depending on the values used to produce Blue) - but these values do not change according to who views them.

So, as I said, using the Scientific Method to identify Blue - it is the same for everyone, irregardless of how they perceive it individually. That is because the measuring instruments always see Blue as the same value, and always return the same value. This is one thing that makes the Scientific Method so valuable - it allows us to fix values, etc to constants, that do not depend on human perception. Without such, we would indeed be left with the situation, that what one sees, is not necessary what another sees, etc. Thus, coming up with a set of standards would then depend on who set them, or on who can force their perception of things on others.

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 03-04-2005 18:52

http://animal.discovery.com/convergence/dragons/dragons.html

Animal Planet's Link for the Dragon show containing trailers and info (For those that are interested, otheriwse continue the show... Good reading)

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 03-05-2005 00:42

Thanks for the link, GrythusDraconis


Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 03-08-2005 03:16

Hey Duninu, I think there were, are, and have been dragons all the time. As you said, maybe not the firebreathing kind (will those be featured?), but at least the kind that are giant lizards.

I think I read somewhere that there were some wall paintings from an ancient tribe somewhere in the Middle Eastern area that depicted dragons as pets. I don't know if it was a historic account that was painted, or just some artist's imagination, but wouldn't it be cool?

quote:
WebShaman said:

Thus, coming up with a set of standards would then depend on who set them, or on
who can force their perception of things on others.


He He He. Sorry, just reminded me of something...

Hey WS, good points. Well, there went that whimsical philosophical adventure. Gee, thanks... (JK )

Thanks for that link Grythus. It is a little slow on the loading, but well worth it.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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