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briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 02-17-2005 16:43

Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes

quote:
The class for clergy and seminarians at Rome's Pontifical Academy "Regina Apostolorum" has arisen from alarm about Satanic practices among young people, especially in Italy.




Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-17-2005 17:00

Merely an effort to perpetuate the myth of a god.

Without a devil, there would be no need for a god or clergy. Then all those pedophiles would be out wandering the streets instead of molesting choir boys.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 02-17-2005 19:51

Thats a pretty poor response.

I am sure there are many people here who know a good number of holy men, and having nothing but the highest reguard for them. I am an aethist through and through, but I still have respect for the men who can live up to the standards imposed upon them by the church.

Those that break those rules should be punished. They are ruining the good names of the many more who perform a tireless service for their community. I think lumping all of these good people into the class with the bad is terrible thing to do, especially when so many of the people in that group are some of the nicest and kindest people you will ever meet.

Just because you have something against a set of beliefs does not make the people who hold those beliefs evil.

Dan @ Code Town

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-17-2005 22:38

However, WarMage, the covering of such crimes is also a crime in and of itself. Don't fool yourself in that regards.

I am not saying that all should be lumped into one heap. But turning a blind eye to the problem is just as bad, IMHO.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-18-2005 00:53

That was the point. Those who were not themselves pedophjiles oftent knew about the predations of their brethern and kept quiet or were an active part of the cover-up.

They then, are eligible for tarring with the same brush.

Those few who had no knowledge would clearly be held blamless.

Remember Nuermburg?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-18-2005 15:04

You also have to remember the pressure that is put on the Priests, Bishops, Pope, etc. to be perfect. When something like that happens, they try to cover it up quickly so that the reputation doesn't go down the hole. It is quite understandable from their view point. Bad, but understandable.

As for the "without Devil...no need of God" that is really untrue. You don't need a super bad guy to justify God. We are super bad guy enough. The Devil is a really bad, tricky serpent, but as a shirt I once read said "lead me not unto temptation...I can find it my self." Satan is bad, don't get me wrong. He is a major threat to unbelievers, and more of a threat to believers, but he just plays on human weaknesses. In a sense, he uses us to destroy ourselves. And he is very good at it. But God is still there, Satan or no Satan.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-18-2005 16:16

Oh, I feel sooo much better!

Thank you for the sermon.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-18-2005 16:52

Pardon me, cleaning vomitus off my keyboard.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-18-2005 18:38
quote:
It is quite understandable from their view point. Bad, but understandable.



No.

No, no no no no no!

it is not in the slightest bit understandable. from any persepctive.

there are a lot of things that are understandable, especially when in a stressful situation.

ok, just so we're clear: RAPING CHILDREN AND ANY ASSOCIATED COVERING UP/PERPETUATION OF THAT ACT IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

Please tell me we can all agree on that?

The people 'in charge' who not only covered up these actions, but actually moved these priests from town to town where they could constantly prey on new unsuspecting children are EVERY BIT as guilty as the priests who were actually raping children.

Those throughout the church - both clergy and parisheners - who make excuses for them, as if all they did was cheat at Scrabble, are crossing the border into that guilt as well.


.


As to the posted topic....I can't imagine what these classes will actually consist of. I can't beleive they will actually be very informative in any real sense.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 02-19-2005 00:36

Hey, good idea. Let's get back to the posted topic. Anyone have any other comments?

Please start a new topic if you want to continue discussing the pedophile issue.


Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-20-2005 02:46

Sorry Briggl

Well, I don't know a whole lot about exorcisms. Most of what I know come from the movies (heh, great place to learn things huh). But I did see something on a Discovery channel video once about a boy who was supposedly possesed by a demon. Then a few priests exorcised it (after quite a while). Let's assume for the sake of argument that demons are real, the Christian God is real, and exorsims could possibly work (all three of which this Catholic Church believes). Would these courses, under those circumstances, be logical? Would they even work well?

I personally think that, assuming demons, why not equip priests with the tools to use against them?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-20-2005 03:05

at the same time let us assume pigs may fly. Which should not be confused with the possibility that mayflies may be, on occasion, pigs.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-20-2005 03:16

If that helps you focus on the discussion at hand then have at it. I was trying to make it easier for discussion by making an assumption that the church in question believes in. It helps understand their thought process. If Briggl wants to take it in a different way then have at it.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 02-20-2005 05:53
quote:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that demons are real, the Christian God is real, and exorsims could possibly work (all three of which this Catholic Church believes). Would these courses, under those circumstances, be logical? Would they even work well?


Based on those assumptions, it is logical for the church to offer such courses. The answer to the second question depends upon how well the teachers do their jobs.
Based on the information in the article, it is quite logical for the church to do what it has done. I personally do not believe in any of that stuff, so I wouldn't be taking any of the courses. But I can certainly understand why the church felt the need to offer them.


Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-20-2005 17:07

Apparently, societies where fogs are virtually unknown, desert areas for instance, don't have the ghost myth.

If we didn't have religion, we wouldn't have demon and devil myths. Or angels and cherubim for that matter.

Such imaginings are essential to keep the ignorant masses entertained and frightened, thus strengthening the local shaman's grip upon them.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-20-2005 18:29

While I agree on a certain level, etheist, I think you gloss over the issue far too lightly. It goes much deeper into the human psyche than simple fear, control, or entertainment.

It's far more an issue of need. The need for hope - a hope that this dismal life is not all there is....that the suffering we endure her will somehow be rewared later.

It's about the need to believe that human nature is not as bad is it really is....that the evils of this world can be explained by supernatural forces.

People have certainly used these things to their advantage, instilling fear to gain control and the like, but at it's base it is far deeper and far more invasive than those things.

It could obviously be discussed in far greater detail than this, but you get the idea, I'm sure...

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-20-2005 20:18

^ Well said.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-21-2005 04:07

Sums it up fairly well...an escape from reality.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-22-2005 22:45

and on a related note -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4287995.stm

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-23-2005 02:23

The work of man, not a mythical beast. Man's works have always transcended that of the mythical gods in sheer brutality.

Perhaps that is why many like to say it "...is god's will", avoids responsibility.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 02-23-2005 13:20

Very well said DL. The human needs were explained quite well, and yes, religion is more taken advantage of. If you were to look at things from a very objective view, most religions would not create strife, would only issue a good moral base, and be a good solice for people in regards to rewards. I don't think Christianity is a good one for making one feel better about one's self, since it says that men are inherently evil, but there are plus sides...

As for other religions, if the anger and violence of the people were taken out, there would probably be world peace. Take Muslums for instance. If the few verses in the Koran that speak vaguely about violence were taken out, then it would be a very peaceful religion. But then you have the problem of manipulation. People manupulating a religous person to get something out of him/her. That happend a bunch in the middle ages.

As for the topic, Etheist, the reason I posted it that way was that those were the beliefs of the Church. If those beliefs were switched, then it would definitly be a stupid waste of time (Priesthood itself would be a WOT excpet for what DL said).

I can't seem to find a middle ground. Is there one that can make a good discussion? With the first side it is absolutely good to have the classes. On the other, only more pomp for controling the masses. Is there a middle ground?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-23-2005 16:55

Religion, being entirely a creation of man, is inheirantly as evil as the men and women who conduct it's offices.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 02-24-2005 21:26
quote:
Religion, being entirely a creation of man, is inheirantly as evil as the men and women who conduct it's offices

.

This is a pretty strong broad statement. Think again. Why is trying to spread peace and love for each other evil?

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-24-2005 21:58
quote:
is inheirantly as evil as the men and women



There is no implication of any particular level of evil...only that the institution is equal to the people who comprise it.


Besides, you are narrowing religion down to one small aspect of your particualr religion - "trying to spread peace and love".

There are very obviously - no matter how much you would like it to be otherwise - very large parts of the institution of christianity (and very large numbers of christians) which are not the slightest bit interested in spreading peace and love...

There are very obviously those parts of the institutuion, as well as those members of the "faithful" who have proven to be very seriously evil.

The naive idealism displayed in your statement is kind of "cute" and nice...but it's not reality for the most part.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-24-2005 22:05

briggl, my opinion is that this class is a positive step for the Vatican University. There are a lot of people who get involved in one form of Satanism or another and often times it is not beneficial in the least to them. If this class can help equip RC priests to steer young people away from those cases, then more power to them.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-24-2005 22:07

Why is trying to spread peace and love for each other evil?[quote]

When did that happen?

For most of it's history xianity has been as dedicated as the radical Muslims in bringing converts by way of the sword.

Even today, right-wing xian sects use hatred and fear, an example is the idiocy over claiming cartoons are promoting a gay lfestyle. It is a smaller sword, blunt and dull, but a sword non-the-less.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-24-2005 22:07

Why is trying to spread peace and love for each other evil?[quote]

When did that happen?

For most of it's history xianity has been as dedicated as the radical Muslims in bringing converts by way of the sword.

Even today, right-wing xian sects use hatred and fear, an example is the idiocy over claiming cartoons are promoting a gay lfestyle. It is a smaller sword, blunt and dull, but a sword non-the-less.

Dull and blunt effectively describes those who adhere to such foolishness as well.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-24-2005 22:28

Ehtheist, use the Edit button - works nicely.

Back to the thread!

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-24-2005 22:34
quote:
Ehtheist said:

For most of it's history xianity has been as dedicated as the radical Muslims in bringing converts by way of the sword.


Ehtheist, I have to disagree with that. I think if you take an honest look at history you will find the good brought about in this world as a direct result of Christ's teachings far far outweighs the evil that has been done in his name. But even if your characterization were true, spreading Xianity by the sword violates its own principles.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 02-24-2005 23:46
quote:
There are very obviously those parts of the institutuion, as well as those members of the "faithful" who have proven to be very seriously evil.



Like how many since the history of Christianity? Can you number them?
What parts of the institution specifically? How has their evilness impacted the whole of Christianity as it is today as opposed to other evil institutions.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 00:45

Remember the inquisition?

Remember the crusades?

And those are just the most well-known instances of the evil being done in the name of Jesus Christ, a person who preached peace, and love for one another.




(Edited by briggl on 02-25-2005 00:45)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 02:44
quote:
Can you number them?



I don't know that I can count that high

Briggl noted the obvious examples. Keep in mind that the crusades were not just one campaign. There were many, and they were by and large very violent political affairs. Several times, the armies on their way out of europe would be sure to slaughter any jews in their path on the way, among other things...caught up in their "christian" fervor.

There was most certainly a blood lust associated with the propogation of christianity during the medieval period. Especially in concern with Muslims and Jews (the biggest "threats" to their concept of Jesus as the christ).

How about the countless instances of burning people alive, for such simple things as disagreeing with the cardinals on matters of scriptural interpretation?

The amount of death caused by these things combined is staggering.

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-25-2005 03:03

WS your reference to the 'edit' button escapes me.

Well Bug, suppose you list some of the good...I suspect your list would be shorter.

Xianity has violated it's 'stated' principles since the outset. The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal a sect very much dedicated to bringing the faith to the unbelievers by the sword. A sect described by one researcher as "Giving no quarter and asking none". Apparently, they were surrounded by like-minded tribes as well.

Very loving.

Hypocritical since the outset and living up to that creed alone to this date.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 04:36

Why don't we take one very well known and recent example? How do you regard the life and work of Mother Teresa? Very loving? Hypocritical?

Can you offer a link or reference to the Dead Sea scroll info you mention?

DL-44, while I don't condone the burnings, it needs to be pointed out that putting people to death who disagreed with the powers that be was pretty much commonplace in that point in human history. In fact, it still is in many countries.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 02-25-2005 04:57

Bugs, mother terresa is irrelevant, I am sure there were and still are large number of people regarless of their beliefs or lack of them, who did and still do good for mankind. We are talking about organization founded on Jesus' teachings and it's bloody history, particulary dark ages, which were very much hypocritical and ironic in terms of the actions the authorities performend and teachings they preached.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 04:58
quote:
The purpose of Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity is to serve the "poorest of the poor." In the process of fulfilling its mission it has become one of the wealthiest charities in the world. Exactly how much money the charity has received is difficult to pinpoint. Sister Pauline, head of the order's operations in Germany was quoted as saying, "It's nobody's business how much money we have, I mean to say how little we have." (see "Mother Teresa: Where Are Her Millions?") There have been reports that US$50 million was in a New York City bank account at the time of her death in 1997. The donated money does not appear to be used to better the conditions of the poor. Unsterile conditions prevail at the order's homes for the poor. Because Mother Teresa's concern was more focused on life after death than the mortal life she was able to say "The most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the suffering of Christ." In terms of the donations it was probably the donors and their consciences that benefited the most since the money never seems to have trickled down to the poor souls in the order's care.



http://www.cosmicbaseball.com/mteresa01.html


Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 05:33

briggl, so how would *you* characterize her? Does this information, assuming it's true, lead you to consider her a hypocrite? Ineffective? What? I would like to hear your words and not just the link's.

Ruski, I didn't think we were limiting this to the Catholic church. I thought Ehtheist was referring to Xianity as a whole. Maybe I misunderstood.

I can point out countless examples of Xian charities, selfless acts, money donated, houses built, unwanted children adopted, etc. One of the fundamental commandments of the Xian faith is to love others as you love yourself. Those who actually follow, or even partially follow, the actual teachings of Xianity are motivated to help others as often as they can.

I know of the abuses and terrible things that have been done throughout history. I've acknowledged them here many times. There is no excuse for them and those responsible will have to answer for their actions of that you can be sure. I don't believe that the abuses nullify the loving actions.

quote:
The greatest person alive in the world at this moment is some unknown individual in some obscure place who, at this hour, has gone in love to be with another person in need.

--Albert Schweitzer



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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-25-2005 05:34)

Ehtheist
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-25-2005 06:11

Mother T and her ilk are the exception which prove the rule...the sword being the rule. Many xian drawings and art work depict an angel with a flaming sword.

When the lion lays down with the lamb, the lion rises with a full stomach.

Bug, if you google dead sea scrolls or Qumran, you will get a host of hits. In particular, I am currently reading, very slowly, "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered" by Robert Eisenman and Micheal Wise. Published be Element.

I suspect I shall have to read this several times, but so far, I am not getting the impression the scrolls are much more than a bunch of sermons and related notes done by a particularly hard-headed and militaristic sect.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-25-2005 06:32

Ehtheist, is it your position that Xianity teaches forced conversions or that wayward followers have taken that approach? I hope you're not suggesting that depictions of angels with swords indicates Xians were to force their faith on others.

I'll take a closer look at what you were saying about the Essenes community. That sounds like an interesting book too, thanks for pointing it out.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-25-2005 09:42
quote:
I hope you're not suggesting that depictions of angels with swords indicates Xians were to force their faith on others.

Bugs, let's talk about the "conversion" of the Native American Indians )North, Central and South) and the Aboriginies of Australia, shall we?

The Church sanctioned a lot of mass killings ("they don't have souls") - thus it was not murder. Later, after the Church decided they did indeed have souls, they produced a mass campaign to convert them - in anyway possible.

But you know most of this.

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