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WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-28-2005 23:04

I have to agree with DL on this - I am shocked and appalled at the...well, it is simply mind-blowing, that someone following the Xian Religion would have such views regarding their Church and child Molestation.

As DL said, it is truly disgusting. No, I will go further - it is what ALLOWS it to continue. Because those who make up the flock do not rebel against such a widespread behavior.

This makes me feel sick. Truly sick - it is horrible.

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 02-28-2005 23:56

I am not really worried about you xians, you are being outbred by the Asians and Muslims...yes, even the Catholics.

While all religions have a lot to answer for, xianity surely has the greatest debt load. Muslims, Jains, Hindus, Bhuddists do not blow up clinics and shoot doctors, but xians do.

It is xians who are fomenting a world of hate against gays...surely this goes against the 'teachings' your are so proud of?

Just two modern examples which spring to mind. Prince of peace indeed. My favourite bumper sticker says "Jesus, save me from your followers".

Sadly Jade, you are not well educated about the actual history of your own faith. Try reading some material not supplied by the church. But don't do it at night, will scare the hell out of you.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 00:07

Jade, if our God is everything He claims to be, how can anything said in these halls either by heathen or protestant be cause for such defensiveness? You've alienated me to a degree because whenever I've tried to offer honest advice to you about how you interact with others here, you seem to think I'm out to get you too. Just my 2 cents.

quote:
WebShaman said:

Bugs, let's talk about the "conversion" of the Native American Indians )North, Central and South) and the Aboriginies of Australia, shall we? The Church sanctioned a lot of mass killings ("they don't have souls") - thus it was not murder. Later, after the Church decided they did indeed have souls, they produced a mass campaign to convert them - in anyway
possible.

That was what I meant with the "Native front" remark. Could you perhaps clarify your position on this?

I had missed this. Let me begin by making a few points clear.
1) All human beings are equally valuable and loved by God. None of us, not even one, is better than any other. This is the way it has been since the first human, Adam.
2) Any institution, Xian or other, that sanctioned mass killings based on the fallacy that the victims were not human beings was horribly wrong and there is no excuse for that action, PERIOD.
3) Because all human beings are the same, all human beings are needful of a relationship with their creator and should be reconciled to him.
4) Because of #3, the work of spreading the gospel to all peoples is absolutely essential to the Xian faith. It is the third "C" of Covenant - God will be our God if we'll be His people, Commandments - Love God and love everybody else, Commission - Go into all the world and make disciples.

Xians have not done such a spotless job of missions. Please understand that I do not apologize for the spreading of my faith because it is vital that it be done. But along with that comes an acknowledgement that there are proper ways to do it and improper ways. For much of our history, the church and its missionaries have conflated culture with conversion. The gospel does not require that anyone lose their culture.

So when you cite cases where new cultures were forced to emulate Western societies, for instance, in how they dress and the types of music they play, you are correct in pointing out error. Christ's message can come to any culture without destroying that culture. Culture is merely a tool by which we humans craft in order to survive in this fallen world.

I think this explains my position on this a bit more clearly and it probably brings up plenty more questions. Let me know if this helps.

quote:
briggl said:

The passage that begins with "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to
the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." goes against all that I
thought was good about Jesus.

briggl, thanks for the feedback. I think that you can still consider Christ's message in a good light. I am pleased to see that you point out that loving all humans has been a message going back to the foundation of Judaism and was not new to Christ's teachings. I think you are right on target with that. When Christ was asked about the greatest commandments, he summed up the entire law with two simple ones, love God and love everyone else.

I didn't mean to scare you off with the "sword" passage but I thought it might surprise you to hear it so I pointed it out. Actually, what he was referring to was how his own family had branded him a kook and that those who accepted his message would be met with intense resistance even to the point of breaking up families. I can assure you that a thourough read of the NT reveals no sanctioning whatsoever of conversion at the tip of a sword.

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 00:26
quote:
Ehtheist said:

While all religions have a lot to answer for, xianity surely has the greatest debt load. Muslims, Jains, Hindus, Bhuddists do not blow up clinics and shoot doctors, but xians do.

I'm beginning to get a little concerned about your historical knowledge, Ehtheist. Human history is drenched with this sort of violence regardless of religion or country. And I hope you're not feeling too left out since 70 million murders in the century last can be laid at the feet of atheistic movements championed by such greats as Hitler, Mao, and their ilk. This is humanity's flaw, plain and simple.

quote:
It is xians who are fomenting a world of hate against gays...surely this goes against the 'teachings' your are so proud of?

Quite right. I rail against hating anyone within my numbers. Getting people to follow their own belief system is not an easy thing. I just heard a statistic yesterday, in fact, that studies have been done that compare Xians to non-Xians and one trend was clear. Xians on a whole don't act a whole lot different from the non-Xians. From where I sit, that's a real problem.

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Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-01-2005 01:48

What it all amounts to is; if you welcome to your ranks those who wish to become xians, so-be-it.

But the world as a whole, does not need proselytyzers.

Xianity has brought grief and pain and death wherever it has sent it's tentacles.

I believe someone mentioned earlier what the various xian faiths did in their effort to convert indiginous people here in Canada.

All their culture was declared null and void and ungodly. Their children were forced into schools sometimes hundreds of miles from their homes, they were provided physical punishment for speaking their native tongues and let us not even get into the horrendous sexual abuse and sterlizations!

The point you xian apologists avoid, by pointing out other people kill, rape and maim, is that other people-Pol Pots of the world don't hold themselves out to be paragons of virtue!

Religions in general have a tendency to do that. Xianity in particular!

If you are going to make your reputation on what a swell fella you are and how nice you treat people, then randomly rape, murder, torture and otherwise abuse and deprive other people, you have no right whatsoever to complain about criticism!

None!

BTW Bug, every member of the Wermacht had a belt buckle which read "Gott Mit Uns" God is with us...guess which god they thought was on their side?

Your mentioning Mao and other mass murderers puts squarely beside Jade in trying to excuse excesses by religion by saying "well, they did it first, nyahh, nyahh".

Perhaps you ought to review you own historical knowledge" Start in Hawaii and see how the xian missionaries quickly became the snake in a garden of eden.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

(Edited by Ehtheist on 03-01-2005 01:51)

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 03-01-2005 02:49
quote:
Xians on a whole don't act a whole lot different from the non-Xians. From where I sit, that's a real problem.



But Bugs this is to suggest there is something wrong with all but xians and that's why and where I part company with all flavors of all religions which pretty much hold the same view... that being, if you're not one of us you won't get a ticket to the big ride in the sky.

When it comes to xianity I find particularly souring what I call the 'escape clause.'
jesus forgives sinners so it really doesn't matter what you do while you're here.

I've put out the hitler/jew scenario here and elsewhere and have yet to hear a xian reply.

That scenario has hitler, moments before he dies, accepting jesus as his savior and is forgiven for all his sins. Presumably one of those sins would have been his killing of millions of people, most of them jews.

Jews however and of course, do not accept jesus as the mesiah. So under the 'escape clause' hitler is in... all the dead jews are out. Bugs it's bigotry and discrimination plain and simple.

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-01-2005 02:56

Well and truly said No-Jive.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 03:57
quote:
Xianity has brought grief and pain and death wherever it has sent it's tentacles.



While it is true that this has been the case in many instances, and I have been one to point such things out quite often myself, it is very important to note that there have been plenty of cases throughout history where the arrival of christianity made great changes for the positive.

In the 'new world' this was certainly not the case...go as far north or south as you wish...

Throughout much of early medieval europe, christianity had a very positive effect...for a time at least. The world was a horrendously violent place, and the celts and other barbarians were most certainly laying waste to a great many strongholds of 'civiliazation', killing people by the thousands often for no reason whatsoever...
Before that it was the likes of Alexander (and there were plenty more before and after, and across the board in that region and plenty others) who killed and invaded with a bloodlust that could not be satisfied.

Equating Bugimus with Jade is not fair in the slightest.

Notice that Bugimus is not excusing the actions that have been comitted in the name of christ. He clearly states the seperation between what is christian and what has been done in the name of christianity.

He also most certainly has a point in the historical context.

The most important part of this is that christianity did have a positive impact on medieval europe, and Russia, in that it stopped the great bloody mass of violence that was the norm for centuris on end before. Remember that the legend of St Patrick, driving the snakes from Ireland was essentially a record of an end to the constant warring between the pagan warlords...

Let's not forget the *huge* impact that the spread of christianity had on the overall education of the people throughout europe.

It is certain that the institution of christianity, as embodied in the heirarchy of the catholic church, came to do great evil throughout much of the world. This extnds a great many ways, and I have talked about many aspects of this many times (some recently here).

But your statements are a bit too black and white to capture the true impact of christianity as a whole.

There is much good. There is much evil. It is a human fault that exists with or without the religion itself.

The religion is at it's worst in it's capacity to give evil mean leave to do whatever they want in the name of god, and to feel that they have not only right but obligation to do so...which is, of course, a multiplying effect on the human mind.

A bit rambling, I realize...
condensed point is: the spread of christianity in europe had a very positive effect initially. It put a stop to a great deal of violence. It spread literacy and education. The good things that were gained never went away. It also introduced new reasons for and methods of evil acts by men. The good does not outwiegh the evil, and even if it did it could never excuse it.

But it's important that we do not obliterate the good in exposing the evil, or paint things with such broad strokes that we end up the same as the zealots whose actions are being condemned.

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-01-2005 05:24

I pretty much agree with you Dl. The problem with discussing such matters with the religious is they have this overwhelming desire to refuse to see just how naked the emporer is.

I therefore find it is necessary to speak to them in short, hard words, fraught with reality.

Comparing DL with Jade was only insofar as he used the same sort of argeument in his response. For the most part he seems to be one of the 'good' xians. Often downright rational.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-01-2005 15:08
quote:
Jade, if our God is everything He claims to be, how can anything said in these halls either by heathen or protestant be cause for such defensiveness? You've alienated me to a degree because whenever I've tried to offer honest advice to you about how you interact with others here, you seem to think I'm out to get you too. Just my 2 cents.



Thank you for you 2 cents bugs. I thought your God was my God??? If you really see who I inter-act the most with its mostly two atheist, DL and Web. And maybe Ruski. And they are such nice, caring posters who are extremely nice to me. They treat and welcome all new posters with warmth. You have alientated me a long time ago but I never have alienated you.

For the most part of my interactive post, with you bugs, you do not for the most part ever-have considered me a Christian. You side with all others against me for the most part. I am the only catholic on this forum who speaks the truth of what Catholics are and believe. But if you are truly a Christian, you see Christ in all people, even athiest. I take all punches and if I come across as combative its because from day one I have been considered with bigtory even from you. We agree on very little as Christians because you consider me un-christian. Do not think I can read between the lines in your post. You post of welcomes and camadarie and speak of peace. Surely you post what people want to hear to stay on their good side. Good for you. In the face of adveristy, I have continued to state what scripture teaches, even if its not popular. I only try to fulfill my mission in walking the way of the one who sends who was not a very popular person either. I make no judgements on who is a Christian and who isn't. I consider all protestants christians in their walk to serve the Lord. In all his sincerity, I believe Gideon truly loves the lord in all his honesty. I can read his heart in his post. He faces adversity in his reply post all the time, but still he continues to love his God. I am impressed. Stay on course Gideon, you are not far from the kingdom. "He who hears you, hears me" in the words of Jesus Christ. And I do hear you.



quote:
Equating Bugimus with Jade is not fair in the slightest.



In what way DL? Is he a nicer more giving person that I am?

(Edited by jade on 03-01-2005 15:11)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 15:18

Oh great

In the span of just a few posts I have been misunderstood and/or misquoted by three people.

~sigh~

S'ok, I'll respond in detail once I get a spare moment...

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Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-01-2005 16:47

Again I ask, if the "kingdom" (another archaic and outdated concept) is such a great place, why is it so many good xians spend so much money and use up so many medical resources trying to extend their stay on earth?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 19:12
quote:
In what way DL? Is he a nicer more giving person that I am?



I wouldn't know.

But he is a rational, intelligent person who has taken the time to educate himself about the origins of his religion. I still disagree with him on the most fundamental of issues, and we come to very different conclusions based upon many issues that we actually agree on.

But he has proven himself educated in the matters of history that are so often a concern in the course of his religion, and can talk about such things honestly and in an informed manner.

You, on the other hand, do nothing but deflect, deny, deceive (yourself primarliy) and have proven to be very uneducated as to the actual history of your religion, and are far too prone to trying to play the martyr when there is simiply no cause. You behave like a child in need of extra attention, and will get it however you can.

And no, I won't sit and discuss the issue. You asked, I answered. End of story for me.

=)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 19:46

NoJive,

I thought that you misunderstood me but upon re-reading your post I take that back. Your first paragraph points out a truth. According to Xianity, the *only* way to the big ride in the sky is the Jesus ticket.

The remainder of your post also affirms a fundamental aspect of Xianity, which is that none of us can attain eternal life by how many good works we perform. The only way any of us will see heaven is by the grace of God.

I really don't recall if I ever answered your "escape clause" question, I think I have in the past. But I think you know perfectly well the answer and I acknowledge it. If Hitler were to have accepted Christ before his death, he would have been forgiven for his sins. That goes for you, me, Jews, Nazis and *anyone* who wants it.

On one hand Xianity is very exclusive because there is only *one* way to salvation. On the other hand it is utterly non-discriminatory in that the salvation offered is open to any and all people regardless of their past transgressions.

I have a question for you related to your "escape clause". I presume you believe Hitler will burn for his actions? I don't recall if you believe in an afterlife or not. Either way would it be safe to assume you think you are a better human being than him? If so, do you deserve more than him? Where is the line drawn between "good" people and "bad" people? Are you the judge of that? If not, who is? I guess that turned into a few questions instead of just one.


Ehtheist,

I hold DL-44's objectivity, reasoning and honesty in the highest regard. His reply to your "Xianity has brought grief and pain and death wherever it has sent it's tentacles" was tempered and accurate. I'm pleased you agree basically with it.

quote:
The point you xian apologists avoid, by pointing out other people kill, rape and maim, is that other people-Pol Pots of the world don't hold themselves out to be paragons of virtue!

Actually, the Pol Pots of the world do hold themselves out to be paragons of virtue but more to the point, what does that reply have to do with anything I said? You've confused me with someone that is making excuses for the evils done in the name of Xianity. Go back and read *my* posts and you will see I don't do that.

There are two reasons I mentioned the atheist based atrocities of the last century:
1) Because they happened and to illustrate humanity's depravity.
2) To ratchet your smugness down a notch. Some of your posts with regard to tone and gross generalization are hard to distinguish from those of self-righteous religious zealots. This is merely an observation and addresses your methods, not your positions.

quote:
Again I ask, if the "kingdom" (another archaic and outdated concept) is such a great place, why is it so many good xians spend so much money and use up so many medical resources trying to extend their stay on earth?

I will give you a straight answer for how Xians *should* regard the point you mention. As the apostle Paul explained there would (will) be nothing better than to finally meet Christ face to face in glory. Why linger here? The answer is very simple. We stay here for as long as we can reach others. There are millions of people in this world who have never even heard of Jesus Christ. It is not enough to be satisfied that you have eternal life when your friends, family and neighbors do not.

I'm sure that is not the answer you wanted to hear. Surely it was your intention to point out how hypocritical some xians are. Well, it is a simple fact that many xians are such. It sure doesn't help make the faith attractive to outsiders as you have stated. Like I said before, it makes my job that much harder.


Jade,

I wrote "OUR God" not "YOUR God". Please take another look at my post.

I'm afraid that you think if someone agrees with you that they automatically like you as a person. I'm also afraid that you think if someone disagrees with you they automatically dislike you as a person. I am trying to get you to see that you have every right to your own opinions but you cannot expect everyone to agree with them. It's ok if they don't, everyone here has the right to disagree and criticize ideas, beliefs and opinions. There is simply no reason to take disagreement personally! Can you see that?

quote:
For the most part of my interactive post, with you bugs, you do not for the most part ever-have considered me a Christian

Ok, now you're just being paranoid. I know there are many protestants who don't consider Catholics to be xians. I am not one of them. I do consider you a sister in the faith, I hope you can accept that.

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WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 19:56

Just to make people happy, Hitler will burn. As his final act was him killing himself (a sin), so no matter what he burns, at least according to the Christian faith.

Ok back to your regular slicing and dicing of each others basic patterns of belief and non-belief.

Dan @ Code Town

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-01-2005 20:13

Just a little discourse among... fellow inmates, WM. No worries

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Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-02-2005 00:55

Ok bug, I speak frankly and don't believe in PC or pussy-footing. Too much chance for mis-understanding with thos approaches.

It looked to me as though you were adopting the jade approach, divert and change the subject. If it were not your intent, I accept that.

Burt please, leave those millions of people who have never heard of xianity alone in their bliss.

If your contention is accurate, they will go to their just rewards anyway, without having to put up with all that original sin bs and other guilt trips.

I know you and your ilk feel you are commended by your god to spread the news. I beg of you to keep it to yourself, it is pretty much all bad news. By all means, welcome those who come to you of their own accord, but leave those who either have their own beliefs or none, alone. They are really much happier in the long run.

Then too, there would be no reason for xians to delay their departure.

If Pol Pot or his sort held themselves out to be pargons of virtue I must have missed that press release.

Even if they did, they are individuals...not a world-wide conspiracy as xianity is. My comment stands.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-02-2005 15:40
quote:
And no, I won't sit and discuss the issue. You asked, I answered. End of story for me.




DL
Oh my goodness...... looks who acting childlike too.

Your view of my uneducated knowledge on religion doesn't surprise because usually if you have your mind made up already, you stay where your at. You will not grow. You are no more educatated than I am in regard to religion. I have taken two years of theology, which includes church history, doctrines, and bible courses, not to mention 12 years of catholic school. And in the course of this I have been a catechist (teach religion to high schoolers) for over 15 years, which requires much study and training seminars. I do very much believe I still need much much more schooling. No doubt you believe its misquided or not credible because of where it originates. I have given my life to Jesus at a very early age. In fact grade school is when I decided to immerse myself to do the will of the Jesus.

And you shouldn't throw stones either, since you have shooed many would be permanent posters away with your attitude on this forum. I have witnessed many confrontative post when people don't agree with you and you irritate them so that they leave forever.

Bugs, I know you said our, but I just didn't believe it, since I seldom see you post when discussions regarding general Christian religious issues come up and I am involved. I just feel your guarded and don't want to trample on toes for fear of being seen in a negative light in associatin with me. For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum. You come across as a nice man with well thought out responses and don't repeat yourself as DL does. I hope your thoughts reach the depths of some godless souls here. I don't agree with your assement of me though. I force my opinions on no one and if you could really be objecive you wuld see that many persons on this form do. So why do you single me out since you seem to police this forum.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-02-2005 15:51
quote:
And no, I won't sit and discuss the issue. You asked, I answered. End of story for me.




DL
Oh my goodness...... looks who acting childlike too.

Your view of my uneducated knowledge on religion doesn't surprise because usually if you have your mind made up already, you stay where your at. You will not grow. You are no more educatated than I am in regard to religion. I have taken two years of theology, which includes church history, doctrines, and bible courses, not to mention 12 years of catholic school. And in the course of this I have been a catechist (teach religion to high schoolers) for over 15 years, which requires much study and training seminars. I do very much believe I still need much much more schooling. No doubt you believe its misquided or not credible because of where it originates. I have given my life to Jesus at a very early age. In fact grade school is when I decided to immerse myself to do the will of the Jesus.

And you shouldn't throw stones either, since you have shooed many would be permanent posters away with your attitude on this forum. I have witnessed many confrontative post when people don't agree with you and you irritate them so that they leave forever.

Bugs, I know you said our, but I just didn't believe it, since I seldom see you post when discussions regarding general Christian religious issues come up and I am involved. I just feel your guarded and don't want to trample on toes for fear of being seen in a negative light in associatin with me. For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum. You come across as a nice man with well thought out responses and don't repeat yourself as DL does. I hope your thoughts reach the depths of some godless souls here. I don't agree with your assement of me though. I force my opinions on no one and if you could really be objecive you would see that many persons on this form do. So why do you single me out ???

(Edited by jade on 03-02-2005 16:12)

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-02-2005 16:59

Jade, poor Jade.

You doubtless have a well grounded education in your religion. But, all that training and information came from your religion and you can be sure it left out all the rough stuff, the unpleasant history and all of the truth.

If you are truly a seeker of truth and knowledge, you must look to find information outside of church-sanctioned sources.

Don't let your friends and church authorities know you are doing this, they frown on people learning the truth.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-02-2005 17:12
quote:
Don't let your friends and church authorities know you are doing this, they frown on people learning the truth.



So you believe the RC is conspiring too? Do you? In your opinion why? Does this refer to other institutions too, like the jews, muslims, buddist, and the protestants, etc. Or just he RCs?

So, what is the truth as you know it? And the baisis for it and were you in a religion before?

(Edited by jade on 03-02-2005 17:16)

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 03-02-2005 18:41

^hahahaha

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-02-2005 23:40

Ok Jade, this is getting a bit ridiculous.

Let us assume for a moment, that you know all there is to know on your Chruch and Religion (or at least, that you have a good, solid understanding of it).

So tell us about the Crusades, the Inquisition and about the Witch Hunts (which actually started, if I am not wrong, in Germany - and was horrendous there) and was repeated again in Salem.

I am interested in hearing what you think you know about these sponsered events from the RC organization.

After that, I think we will start with the "New World" - both the Americas and Australia.

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 03-03-2005 00:29

WebShaman, I agree with you, but it was not the RC church in Salem, Mass. It was a Christian sect, specifically the Puritans, but they were not Catholic.


DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-03-2005 01:13

WS - If we are going to discuss the history, we should at least start at the beginning...

The points of history that so many christians seem to want to deny the most (for reasons I can't really grasp) are the actual roots of the religion. The simple fact that the catholic church did not exist as we know it until well into the 4th century. That the idea of the 'papacy' didn't come about until still later than that. That there was no actual unified collective before that. That there was not only one manner of christianity, that it was a diverse collection of groups with sometimes drastically different views.

Not only different interpretations of "scripture", but, in fact, many different collections of scripture from which to draw their interpretations.

The formation of the catholic church was begun by the secular ruler of Rome, not the religious world. It was not a move that simply put in place the existing doctrines of christianity, it was one which *decided* what those doctirnes would be. Things like 'was mary a virgin?' and 'was jesus god?' and the like were decided.

How many groups were there, exactly? Pretty hard to say. It is very clear, however, that there were many. And when the time came, all of them were as convinced that there version of christianity was the one. Only one group won the right to call their's 'orthodox' though. Only they won the right to burn alive the people who said they were wrong. Only they won the right to tell people what collections of scripture they could use, and what the interpretations of them were.

If we could get the proper historical grounding for the catholic church established, it would be easier to then address the subsequent historical events.

If we can't even get the facts straight on the beginnings...how can we move on from there?



(Edited by DL-44 on 03-03-2005 01:21)

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-03-2005 02:21

No paranoia Jade, I have full distrust in all religions and learned that distrust at the tender age of 9, when I was punished by the local church for asking questions they couldn't answer.

The RC are just the worst of a bad lot.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-03-2005 07:02
quote:
but it was not the RC church in Salem, Mass.



Yes, I am aware of that, briggl - but the Witch Hunts that got started in Germany actually were instigated by the RC - I'm sure the Puritans got this idea from there.

quote:
WS - If we are going to discuss the history, we should at least start at the beginning...


I think that is an excellent idea, DL. Ok...let us then start with the beginning, and then move on.

So, just waiting for Jade...come, inform us.

(Edited by WebShaman on 03-03-2005 17:30)

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-03-2005 16:30

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/catholic.htm

From the outset, this religion was so unpalatable they had to adopt pagan holy days and gods to attract people.

According to many investigators Xist, if he existed, was more likely born in June (yes, he may be a gemini) than December, but the pagan ritual in December, marking the end of the long nights and the slow return of the long days, was chosen in order to gather more attendees.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 03-03-2005 18:08

^ practices like that were very common through out the history, even image of Jesus and God both visually and conceptually developed on other beliefs.

The adoptation of Roman looking like emperor with the beard and purple toga with gold stripes happened during Byzantine times.

The replacement of statues of Pagan Greek Gods with Christian Saints.

The halo of saints comes from Egyptian sun disks representing sun god.

The adoptation of Roman architecture for Catholic church etc etc etc.

I know for a fact that only if modern Chriatians were aware of early christian history, beliefs and art they produced and how interpretated them, not to mention how many things they adopted from other beliefs/cultures/etc

It would be pretty surprising even to them.

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 03-03-2005 19:26

It might be surprising yes, but would it diminish their beliefs at all. No.

All of these events can be interpereted in a spirtitual fashion. All of these events can even be actively incorporated into their religion.

For example us Americans celebrate Independence Day on the 4th of July, however, this was not the actual day that these events happenned. It is just how it was remembered. I believe it was good old Ben Franklin with a bad memory who made this mistake.

The problem with a lot of people in these religions is that they will claim that these historical facts are not true, as if accepting that these things happened somehow invalidates their belief system.

Say Jesus was born in June, does that invalidate the celebration of Christmas? Or if his death wasn't in March, does that invalidate the celebration of Easter. Of course not, so the dates are wrong. You are still showing your appreciation and worship, and you are still praising the fact that these two important events did in fact occur.

Again the problem isn't that there might be problems with specifics in the religion, the problem is the denial that there are be problems.

Dan @ Code Town

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-03-2005 21:43
quote:
jade said:

Bugs, I know you said our, but I just didn't believe it, since I seldom see you post when discussions regarding general Christian religious issues come up and I am involved. I just feel your guarded and don't want to trample on toes for fear of being seen in a negative light in associatin with me.

You're absolutely right that I tend to shy away from those types of threads. That was what I meant earlier about feeling alienated. First and foremost, it is important to be honest with one another here. When I have been honest with you in the past with constructive criticism of your discussion methods, it seemed to me that you took it as a personal attack. Specifically, this has happened when I have agreed with DL when he has spoken truth on a matter and disagreed with you when you had erred.

Often times, speaking the truth hurts not just the one being told but also the speaker. On one hand, I don't want to hurt a family member but on the other I cannot perpetuate error. The priority here should be clear. But just in case it is not. Truth and doing what is right supercedes family every time. Jesus himself taught this concept.

So I admit fully that because I don't like to be in the situation described above, I tend to avoid those types of threads. Now that we are airing this out a bit, I will no longer hold back.

quote:
jade said:

For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum.

Stop linking agreement/disagreement with positions with friend/enemy or us/them. My friends in these halls are my fellow inmates of which you, Gid, etc. are also members. I try not to discriminate. I try to treat everyone here as objectively and Christ like as I can. I am really trying to get you to see that people aren't out to get you.

But you know what? This isn't supposed to be about you... or me. This is about community and building relationships, dialogue and good will. Didn't our beloved Apostle Paul say, "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy"? That means to avoid those toes wherever possible and yet remain firm on the important things.

quote:
jade said:

I don't agree with your assement of me though. I force my opinions on no one and if you could really be objecive you would see that many persons on this form do. So why do you single me out ???

I didn't say you forced your opinions on anyone. I said that you equate disagreement with your opinions with people not liking you as a person. Trust me, you do it and it's hurting you.

If I were singling you out, then you would be the only person I've had this conversation with and you're not. I am telling you these things for your benefit and to the benefit of this asylum.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-03-2005 21:48

Well said Bugs.

I find this remark very puzzling

quote:
For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum.



Camaderie of friends?

Certainly Bugs is great to have in discussions, because he communicates cleverly and intelligently. But as DL has pointed out before, there are those of us that disagree with Bugs' conclusions. There are also times when I and Bugs got into it rather heatedly (I can remember som Iraq threads vividly), and I know that DL and I have had disagreements in the past, as well. And that is normal, really. People have different views on things, and different beliefs. The real question is, can one support one's views and beliefs in an intelligent and logical manner? I (and others) will attest to the fact that Bugs does, and can.

So though I may disagree with Bugs' views and/or beliefs, I have respect for the manner and method in which he supports them. And that has nothing to do with friendship or camaderie.

So which camaderie of friends are you talking about, Jade?

(Edited by WebShaman on 03-03-2005 21:57)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-03-2005 23:54
quote:
Now that we are airing this out a bit, I will no longer hold back.



Thank you for this. Never hold back. I get personal to dig deep, but not to hurt.

quote:
I am really trying to get you to see that people aren't out to get you.


I never really thought this way. Please believe me. But in my discussions regarding Christianity of the RC doesn't the issue of sexual abuse of the Catholic priest come up with posters every time directed at me and by the same posters. Can you deny this? And Bugs I want to personally ask you why does it? Do they do this to try to hurt me? Because it does not hurt me. Its like if that is all the institution of the church stands for. You cannot have an intelligent conversation with posters who keep bringing up past disgressions. It childish. Its like if you have a fight with your friend or wife of something and were inflicted with great hurt . And then you forgive and move on, but in future agruments, you keep bringing up the past to hurt. How can I not seem defensive. Its a total rehash over and over. Since day one on this forum, can you say that I get the brunt of anger focused on the whole church? Please be honest. I know no one is out to get me personally.

quote:
Trust me, you do it and it's hurting you.


In what way? In the real world of daily living here in the US of A, people are friends no matter what sect . You are not judged by your religion or how you worship. We are so respectful in our regard to treat each person with dignity, love and compassion no matter what faith.

(Edited by jade on 03-03-2005 23:56)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-04-2005 03:53
quote:
But in my discussions regarding Christianity of the RC doesn't the issue of sexual abuse of the Catholic priest come up with posters every time directed at me and by the same posters.



When you ask for examplesof the negative aspects of the roman cahtolic church, do you expect this to *NOT* come up?

This is not a "past" transgression. This issue is very current, and very relevent.

quote:
Do they do this to try to hurt me? Because it does not hurt me.



This is ludicrous. If it hurts you to discuss the things that have heppened in the institution of the catholic church, then I'm afraid I don't know what to tell you.

On the other hand, as Bugs has tried so hard to get across to you, if you take a person's stance on the issues at hand to be some sort of personal attack, that is very clearly *your* issue, and noone else's.

quote:
You cannot have an intelligent conversation with posters who keep bringing up past disgressions.



And you cannot have a conversation about history, as many of these conversations have been, without talking about the past. Hello?

And of course, I must reiterate - we are not talking strictly in the past when we talk about preiest-related sexual abuse. There are some very current cases still, and there are a lot of "past" issues that are still being resolved in the legal sense, and there is still a *very* huge burden on the church to *prove* that they are actively doing something about this issue, and not still stuck in "damage control" PR mode. They have not done this, period.

The simple fact that you prefer to deny wrongdoing on behalf of the catholic church, throughout many aspects of it's history and its present, does not nullify such wrongdoing.

If you take this as a personal attack, or as "hurtful" to you, I don't know what to tell you. It speaks of some serious arrogance and delusion to put yourself at the center of everything like that.
To be clear:

it's not all about you, dear.

quote:
Its a total rehash over and over.



You ask over and over.

And when the same answer that you refused to address every time before is again given, you throw a tantrum and refuse to address the issue.

You belittle the things done over and over in an effort to simply sweep them under the carpet and say "it's in the past". Well it's simply *not* in the past. It's not over, because people like you consistently brush it off, and it has not ever been appropriately addressed in a serious fashion by the church.

quote:
Since day one on this forum, can you say that I get the brunt of anger focused on the whole church?



What is this anger you are seeing jade? There's that delusion again!

You insert yourself into issues where the church is ebing discussed, and attempt to refute everything ebing said. You very often do this without regard to truth. You do it out of an emotional sense of obligation or loyalty to the church, but without regard to reality.

And when you do this, people don't simply accept it and go "gee, ok". There are a lot of people around here with a very big interest in both history andn the human psyche. These interests more or less require an understanding of religion, especially in a historical sense. You simply cannot learn about european, russian or mediteranean history without learning a great deal about christianity, and the roman catholic church.

You need to understand that you are dealing with educated people for whom chruch doctrine will *not* be satisfactory as an answer.

If that upsets you, remember that you have no obligation to insert yourself in such discussions.

If you *do* wish to be part of such discussions, then you need to thicken that skin, and you need to lose the childish antagonism/martyr complex.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-04-2005 06:29

Nice post.

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-04-2005 18:53

Agreed.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-08-2005 15:16
quote:
If we could get the proper historical grounding for the catholic church established, it would be easier to then address the subsequent historical events.

If we can't even get the facts straight on the beginnings...how can we move on from there?


quote:
I think that is an excellent idea, DL. Ok...let us then start with the beginning, and then move on.

So, just waiting for Jade...come, inform us.



You guys have been on the asylum awhile and I have posted the historic beginnings of when the Roman church started. You guys just don't agree. Look at any secular history book or even the encyclopedia and you can read it. Its just that many have their own interpretations on when they think the RC started. It was not, definitely Constantine who started it. That goes against the history books.

And Web, isn't it wrong to judge a whole sect of people on the actions of a few men. EVen in the history of the RC church it has struggled to survive because of the actions of men who gave into evil. Per scripture, even evil will enter the church and try to bring it down. This includes witch buring, the inquistion, crusades, etc.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-08-2005 16:26
quote:
And Web, isn't it wrong to judge a whole sect of people on the actions of a few men.



Not when the people go along with those few. Then they are as guilty as those who lead them. Turning a blind eye does not excuse one of guilt.

Those "few" that attempt to lead, can only do so through the masses.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 03-08-2005 17:05

Ok. Out of the billions of followers in the world that belong to this sect how can we determine who thinks the same way and how can we determine who helped cover it up and went along with it. Lets pick Poland. Out of the millions of followers there that worship in that country, are they guilty too, or is it just USA followers?

What would be your advice??

How can you determine who is turning a blind eye. Lets take Mexico, whos population is 95% catholic, should we blame them too? And what about the Muslim sect? Should we blame all Musilms on the action of the extremist Muslims who murder in the name of Allah?

Ehtheist
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 03-08-2005 17:19

the truth revealed at last;

http://www.janthor.de/anycolor/c505.htm


Another pov

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761573737&pn=3

Apparently much of history fails to agree with Jade's revisionist version.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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