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Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-06-2005 14:14

Bush overturns logging, road ban in forests

Gaddamn him!!

If governors propose no changes in the way the national forests in their states are currently used, or their proposals for changes are rejected by Washington, roadless areas could be opened immediately for development unless specifically protected by 10-year forest plans.

Blocks are mine.


Looks like the Lumber Lobby got their paybacks. The way it is written, only a plan that is pleasing to Washington will be accepted.

What kind of "free-choice" crap is that?

Say good-bye to your National Forests, America, what is left of them, anyway.

I'm so pissed right now...I need to go cool off.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

posted posted 05-06-2005 14:30

Fucking idiots.

Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 05-06-2005 15:23

That sucks. That really sucks.

Suho: | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Just north of nowhere, south of where
Insane since: Feb 2005

posted posted 05-06-2005 15:31

The 'south america' syndrome comes north.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-07-2005 06:52
What kind of "free-choice" crap is that?

Kind of the same though I had from that blurb. But be honest, does any of this surprise you anymore? I mean, I was asleep through the first four years of this guy, and even I am not surprised anymore. Just angry.

More and more with every passing day my opinion that our country is being pillaged is solidified. When they are done with us, they can all move on to China and pillage them.

So much to look forward to.


Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: the space between us
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 05-07-2005 10:43

what i REALLY do not understand is why such a sucker can win the elections...this guy produces just more and more shit every day.

B | T | E | P | L

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-07-2005 11:29

See the various posts by Dan for the reason(s).

Apparently, Mr. Bush was supposed to bring better economic opportunity, growth, yadda yadda.

Although I will give Dan some of the points - Kerry just didn't make a good enough "pitch" for office.

I spent a lot of time in those "12 States" where the majority of the last bit of American Wilderness still exists.

Believe me, my spirit is crying at the thought of what the Lumber industry will do there, now that they have a "blank check" to rape and pillage. I have already witnessed what they did to Vancouver and surrounds, Humbolt County (in Northern California) and other areas.

Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: EN27
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 05-07-2005 13:38

Something to think about;
Here in the Greater Northwoods of Minnesota, where I live, we have lots of forests, some haven't been logged in 50+ years. In my area alone, most are pine forests. For the past few years this thing called "Bud Worm" has been moving across the area. This bug kills jackpine, drys them out, makes them tinder. This is bad. The worm also turns the wood a distinct shade of blue, making it useless for any kind of wood product. If you drive around, you'll see lots of state forest land that is dead, and just waiting for a lighting strike, or some other event. These trees could not be harvested, because there was no road to them, and a road could not be made (ie. state & national forests). Recently the Minnesota DNR has taken steps to clear out the dead tinder, but now it's a game of catch up, and cross your fingers that we won't have a few dry years. This problem could have been avoided, had they been able to get to these forests and clean them earlier. It's scary to drive around looking at forests where there is loads of brown, dry, dead jackpine sitting like a bomb ready to go off. They usually sit among other pine, when pine catches fire, the pine sap tends to explode and stick to everything, think natures napalm. Bad, very bad.
My area is still logging country, I see dozens of logging trucks hauling wood go by every day. But each and every logger I know, knows that they shouldn't clear-cut unless there is no other choice (if they clear cut, they will cut themselves out of work). They use minimal impact harvesters, it's got a big boom on the end that grabs the tree, and holds it as it's cut so it doesn't fall, thus limiting further damage to other trees. Not all loggers are evil, the ones I know, do lots to help the enviroment and to restablish new growth. There are times where we cannot let our forests grow unmanaged.

Damn I hate being serious for that long...

F1_edit: blahblahspellingblah

(Edited by F1_error on 05-07-2005 13:41)

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 05-07-2005 15:25

Heh, you want to see a forest fire? Watch a Eucalypt forest go up. When Eucalyptus leaves get hot they exude their oil, which is incredibly flammable. It's interesting (and highly scary) to watch running crown fires through Eucalypt forests... they spread like... well... like wildfire!

Justice 4 Pat Richard

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-07-2005 18:10
Not all loggers are evil, the ones I know, do lots to help the enviroment and to restablish new growth. There are times where we cannot let our forests grow unmanaged.

First of all, that is simple "party-line" thinking.

The Forest Service, and Bureau of Land Management is normally responsible for things in the NW - I don't know who is in charge of managing the Wilderness areas there in Mn.

If logging companies are doing lots to help the environment, and to re-establish new growth, then why aren't the areas that they have now sufficient? Why is it important enough for the Logging and Lumber lobby to pressure for access to the once-protected National Forest areas?

F1_error, have you ever seen the state of the American Wilderness areas from Space? I don't know how much has been released for Public viewing, but what I have seen, is horrific. Looks like some kind of macabre patchwork.

If logging companies are behaving responsibly, and environmentally, then what areas they have now should be more than sufficient to meet their needs, providing that they have been managing those areas correctly.

I can only go from the examples that Germany has, for "well-planned" forest areas - namely, they are almost all sick. Scrawny, sick trees from the wrong type of management, that 20 years ago they thought was correct management. They now know that you just can't plant trees in nice orderely rows - it doesn't work - that is not how Nature works.

And walking through those types of "artifical woods" - let me tell you, it doesn't feel anything like a real, healthy, vibrant, wild forest.

Seriously, what is the point of allowing Logging in the areas that were purposely set aside for Wilderness areas? Because I can see none, other than one - greed.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-08-2005 10:45)

Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: EN27
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 05-07-2005 19:22

When ever someone tells me that I'm spewing "party-line thinking" my brain just shuts off. (Like I can't be a free-thinker without being a member of an organiztion, party, group or drum-beater.) I know from past experince, on far too many issues all over the spectrum, that once that retort comes out, there is no more use in talking.
I'm out of this thread, but if someone comes up with a good idea/solution/compromise, will you let me know?

Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Vancouver, WA
Insane since: Nov 2003

posted posted 05-07-2005 21:41

I won't call it party line thinking: just flawed. If you drive own 197 from Portland to Bend, you'll eventually pass through an indian reservation. This, and the surrounding area was completely ravaged by loggers some time ago (before I was born, maybe 20?). The "regrowth" they planted is a series of evenly spaced trees about 4 feet tall. It looks nothing like the areas left untouched, which are beautiful.

But I see this everywhere. If you go west on 26 or 30 from Portland to Seaside or Astoria, or up I-5 in Washington, there are innumerable areas where small replanted areas of new-growth trees have replaced grandiose and beautiful forests. It's extremely disheartening, especially since Washington and Oregon both pride themselves in their environment, which they have reason too. It'd be like filling in the Grand Canyon with mud; except that would cause public outcry.

If this happened to the Redwood Forest in California, or the enormous national forests elsewhere across the US, I can't see the result as anything but devastating.

I personally don't see what we need the lumber industry for; they've started developing houses with synthetics wood-plastic products, which are supposedly more rugged than lumber.

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 05-07-2005 22:51


some haven't been logged in 50+ years


In my neck of the woods we call those 'Pecker Poles.' =)

I'm not familiar with your part of the world but 50 year old trees out here (Vancouver Island BC Canada)are most certainly 2nd growth because the trees I planted (more than a million Fir) are 35+ years old and already millions and millions of those have been harvested..and trees even younger (real pecker poles) are being harvested and turned into absolute shit 2x4's... or into pulp.

BTW.. the Pine forests in the interior of BC are being devasted by the "Pine Beetle"... and forest companies are just now being allowed in to 'recover' the trees that might be salvagible for various purposes... a lot of the 'fingered' molding and such... the sort you find at home depot etc.

The problem with this 'recovery' approach however is the intervention with a 'natural process'...whether the Pine beetle... or fire.

The mechanical harvesting you describe I'm quite familiar with and the overall problem there is not the 'selectivness' but rather the effeciency.. if you will. Waaay to fast.

There's an old-timer here on the island who's finally been getting some attention. There's more to his 'sustainable' approach than what he describes here but enough I show there is a way.This guy's got it right.(admittedly tho'... I'm not hopeful).

But when it gets right down to it... it's this next bit that's likely the most important of all. While the 'canopy' sustains an entire eco-system unto itself not just birds & other critters...but complete with trees growing on trees.... it's what's UNDEGROUND... that blew my mind to smithereans.(sp)

Unfortunately unless you can find other excerpts...this doesn't fully explain. Essentially... one tree is connected to another & another etc... UNDERGROUND. I had no idea... but it's a fucking mind blower.

"Phloem is like xylem but is made up of sieve cells that are also linked end-to-end along the root stem; sieve cells perform a similar function to that of tracheids in the xylem, except that the liquid flows in both directions, transferring nutrients stored in the cotyledons (and later manufactured in the leaves or needles) down to the roots." Phew! Luckily, it continues: "Tracheids and sieve cells are the
up-and-down elevators in a skyscraping tree."

I could go on forever. It's a bit of a hobby-horse... more than that really. I've spent my life in communities that relied on the forests. I've either directly or indirectly made a living from the forests. Tree planting, logging...sawmills...pulp mills... if it comes from wood... I've had a hand in it somewhere along the line. And it's a pretty tragic line.

Trees are pretty much the 'lungs of the planet'.... and we're smokin'em. =(

I'm off my horse now... Happy Trails. =)

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 05-08-2005 02:39


They now know that you just can't plant trees in nice orderely rows

Here's one of those tragically funny stories.

A bit off the north coast of vancouver island there's a group of islands one of which is Sonora Island.

This little Island and others in the area have attracted some rather interesting people. Mr. 'windows' himself being perhaps the most notable of the bunch but others too who, while their names may not roll off your lips, play in the same 'sandbox.'

(an aside for a moment... mr windows put on a bit of a bash one year and for entertainment flew in most of , if not all, the seattle symphony orchestra. Can't remember if it was J Leno who emceed that year or not..but you get the idea.)

So back to the story.=)

One of the other 'boys' who owns some of that island 'sandbox' wanted some landscaping done. A bit of an understatement.. he wanted a 'grove' of trees planted.

Now..tree planting is not something that's foreign to this part of the world and the 'locals' hired to do the job, did just that, and a fine job they did too. Well...not quite. =)

One day as the owner was flying in, and over his property, he looked down on the staggered arrangement of his 'grove' and basically said... 'what the fuck is that all about?' Upon landing he ordered his 'grove' be dug up and replanted in neat orderly rows. We're not talking 10 trees here... but many many many times that... all replanted... row after row.. after row.

The locals were just laffin' their bags off.

This particular kid in the 'sandbox??' Well he supplies those double arches with 'all' the spuds for 'fries'.. a fucking potato farmer from idaho. And he knows how you grow spuds.... row after row...after row. My friends up there are still laffin.

From other posts you're no doubt aware I don't subscribe to organized religion but the 'Church of the Long Grass' I can deal with. Have a listen. =)

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-08-2005 10:56

F1, sorry that I came across so harsh.

It is just that anyone who spends a bit of time investigating the subject can see that your response is the "normal" excuse, and as NoJive has pointed out so well, it is a lot more complicated than that.

Also, the wilderness areas (well, what's left of them) lie really dear in my heart. I spent my childhood in much of the NW wilderness. Back then, my stepfathers were all loggers, and I got to witness first hand what happened, both economically and naturally.

The one thing that stuck in my head - humans can go and find other jobs, move, and adapt somewhere else. My stepfathers did, and so did we. A devastated forest is no home anymore for all the animals that lived there, and increasingly, there is nowhere for them to go.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: [s]underwater[/s] under-snow in Juneau
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 05-12-2005 23:10

Spending a good portion of both my childhood and adult life in Alaska has afforded me the opportunity to be in wilderness almost whenever I want to be. A great deal of who I am is because of that wilderness.

I may not be rich and influential, but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I don't judge something's importance by it's ability to fill my wallet. Sometimes the soul needs to be filled too.......

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-12-2005 23:30

^ Thanks for that, norm.

Unfortunately, I think that oh so few know what that is worth...or, how precious that is, something that is not purchaseable.

Enjoy it while you can - these new "laws" may well mean the end to it.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Still looking..
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 06-12-2005 20:47

Yeh, and why not have your own forests molested for a change... feels good I bet. Why do we only cry when it's our own garden that gets burnt down?

QUOTATION: "If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out."

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Madison, Indiana, USA
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 06-13-2005 19:33

Basically there are no forests in the US, east of Colorado, that have not been harvested at least once. The conditions F1_error describes are a result of that harvesting and because we have created that condition, we will probably need to continue to intervene in those forests or clear the people out for a couple of centuries so that nature can return these forests to their virgin state.

On the other hand, NoJive and WebShaman are talking about western forests which have many areas that have never been disturbed. Allowing anyone to go into these forests will disturb their natural state and we will probably end up with dangerous conditions much like the ones described by F1_error.

Unfortunately when the federal government makes a law, it is applied uniformly to all areas and what can be a good law for one area can have devastating effects in others. That seems to be part of what is going on here with people from east and west discussing the same actions being applied to different forests.


-- not necessarily stoned... just beautiful.

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