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WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 06-20-2005 14:38

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/20/wcruc20.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/20/ixworld.html

I don't know how people can think doing things like this is alright. I really don't know how people can do things like this when they know what the consequences are.

Just crazy.

Dan @ Code Town

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 06-20-2005 15:59
quote:
For four days prior to her crucifixion, Sister Irina had been kept locked up with no food or water.
She was imprisoned after having an argument with the priest during Sunday mass, according to locals.



Obviously didn't know her place.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 06-20-2005 16:06

Just one of the few atrocities, done in the name of religion.

It will be interesting to see if the Priest gets a)Convicted and b) De-frocked.

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 06-20-2005 16:43

In Texas last week a woman was arrested for beheading her own child who was also said to have been possessed by a demon.

The demon is every case is clearly religion.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 06-20-2005 20:22

I am not so sure it is religion, as much as it is disturbed people who are able to hide how disturbed they are behind religion.

We talked about this before. When you have voices in your head you have schizophrenia, but when you start calling that voice god you have religion.

Dan @ Code Town

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 06-20-2005 22:13
quote:
but when you start calling that voice god you have religion.



Well, more often you have blasphemy. Successfully turning it into religion is pretty rare....

But yeah, I'd call this yet another case of religion allowing a sick fuck to inflict his sickness on others. Religion is not the reason this happened - it's just the means by which it happened.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 06-20-2005 23:36
quote:

Diogenes said:

In Texas last week a woman was arrested for beheading her own child who was also said to have been possessed by a demon.

The demon is every case is clearly religion.



And what a religion!!

quote:
According to Kings County Sheriff's Department investigators, 30-year-old Samara Spann was a member of a cult that worships the late rap star Tupac Shukar.



http://www.news10.net/storyfull1.asp?id=11456

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 06-21-2005 00:51

Thanks EMP, clearly I mis-heard where it took place, glad for the clarification.

Tupac, Heysoos, Abraham, Martin and John...no justification whatsoever for this sort of thing.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 06-21-2005 20:24

It seems there will always be those who argue that 'sick things happen in spite of religion', when it is all too obvious to me that religion of any kind promotes such ignorant and medieval attitudes, leading to just this sort of thing.

I doubt it matters who or what people worship - it is the worship itself that leads to evil acts.

If I murder someone in the name of the God, Elvis, it makes it no less a religious killing (and it makes me no more a crank than if it were in the name of Yaweh).

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-21-2005 20:28)

Belladonna
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 06-21-2005 21:39
quote:
I doubt it matters who or what people worship - it is the worship itself that leads to evil acts.



That is the most bass-ackward statement I have ever read. Religion does not lead to evil deeds. People have hidden their evil deeds behind religion, and people have used religion to further their political ideas, but that is not the fault of religion itself.

As for that priest--I get the feeling there's more to the story than is being told. Maybe the nun in question wouldn't have sex with the priest or something. Threatened to tell the Vatican that some sort of religious orgie cult had developed there (hey, they're all stuck in a monestary on top of a lonely mountain....it could happen) So he has her killed and says he did it because she was possessed. Whatever. Doesn't mater. My point is that religion itself did not make him have her killed.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

Emperor
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 06-21-2005 21:52
quote:

White Hawk said:

It seems there will always be those who argue that 'sick
things happen in spite of religion', when it is all too obvious to me
that religion of any kind promotes such ignorant and medieval
attitudes, leading to just this sort of thing.

I doubt it matters who or what people worship - it is the worship itself that leads to evil acts.

If I murder someone in the name of the God, Elvis, it makes it no less
a religious killing (and it makes me no more a crank than if it were in
the name of Yaweh).



I'm not sure I agree - crazy people tend to kill for all sorts of crazy reasons. The delusions that lead to these kinds of killings can tap into existing religious teaching or just come out of the blue. For everyone who killed their child beause God told them to you can point to someone who thought a dog told them to do it or for all people who kill because of the Bible there are those that do it because of the Matrix or because they though they were an alien chicken. The important aspect is that the delusion acts in a disinhibitory way to lowee the barrier to killing (usually focused around either an delusional authority telling them to do it or they imaigne the person is somehow less than human and therefore easier to kill).

You can't blame a religion or belief system unless it specifically tells its followers to get out and get some killin' done

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 06-22-2005 02:35

Just to reiterate:

quote:
Religion is not the reason this happened - it's just the means by which it happened.





Though in general it is absolutely true that religion enables such behavior.
A mental succession such as -

1) god is perfect. we must obey god.

2) the priest is the intermediary, and so is closer to god than me

leads to a very unhealthy relationship where the person in power has very little to reign him in when the power complex sinks in.

It doesn't cause such behavior, of course. But it most certainly does encourage it.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 06-22-2005 03:29

Yes, that statement was a little off, wasn't it?

Okay, granted, I'm leaning on religion - but worship itself can be an obsession. Perhaps organised religion will always attract the obsessive (as will Tupak, it seems). Perhaps Hollywood is a crucible of religion(s) in this respect too.

Your average homicidal obsessive f***wit crank loves nothing better than to attach a 'higher purpose' to themselves and their acts - as such, religion can become a refuge for the weak-minded, for all the positive and negative repercussions that might ensue.

Now, I have no wish to offend, and though many of you would argue that you have religion and yet are not cranks, world events would seem to suggest that you represent only a portion of the whole.

I would venture a guess that many find others of the same faith to have varying views on the basic interpretation of their religious discipline (we all have different opinions) and I might even suggest that some of you, here, may even have met those of your own faith whose behaviour and attitude were far removed from your ideals - maybe even abhorrent to you as a faithful disciple.

Whereas I might disagree with my neighbour on his choice of diet, I am unlikely to "club the pig-eating infidel over the head with his own crucifix". One, because I don't do that sort of thing in the first place, and two, because I don't have religion, and therefore no indoctrinated reason to use such an excuse. Maybe, though, if I were of that ilk, I might plausibly be more inclined to a form of worship, whether religious or obsessive (whatever the distinction is).

So I don't think I'm going too far with my wide old brush to suggest that religion attracts more than its fair share of cranks and nutters. Acts performed by extreme fanatics, cranks, evil-doers hiding behind faith, or world leaders in the name or spirit of it, could be described as both 'evil' and 'religiously motivated' - but it might admittedly also be a redundant point, as it is either conventionally indistinguishable from common examples of worship or idolatry, or simply trite.


I apologise for being 'bass-ackward' Belladonna, but does that clarify my clumsy evaluation or just dig me in deeper? *ducks behind DL-44*


Good points there, Emperor, but I don't think there are as many mentalists blaming a Dog as are blaming a God - it's just a typo'!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

Edit: Just read "bass-ackward" out loud and realised what it was. Laughed uproariously! Doh!

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-22-2005 03:57)

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 06-22-2005 05:27

I am going to disagree with your statement that recent events show otherwise. It is that recent events show that a crazed minority can really shake things up. It is in no way a majority or a near majority, it is a fractional minority that causes all these problems. One bad seed, and everything goes to shit. Look at the DC snipers. You have two people who affect millions.

As for you not doing crazy things. I am going to say that you would. You just do not have the same type of motivations. If really terrible things happened to you in your life I am sure you would do things that people (and you right now) would consider crazy. Everyone has a breaking point, it is just that you have not seen yours.

I really think you are out on a limb here and not really thinking to hard about what you are saying. You might have a general idea, but the conclusions you are drawing seem way off base.

Dan @ Code Town

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 06-22-2005 09:12

I still say it's a typo.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 06-22-2005 12:59

I think I'll be ready to revise my opinion when next a group of extremist naturalists suicide-bomb a government building, or fanatical tree-huggers behead an industrial magnate, or a family stones their pet dog to death for fornicating openly with numerous partners, or when an entire country is 'cleansed' of its geography teachers.

When I think of religion, I don't see a peaceful little community of the faithful wishing peace upon one another, I see catholic priests molesting children for years and having their activities covered-up by authorities, I see entire countries segregating their populations in a struggle against the constant death and destruction wrought on both sides of the religious divide, I see a history of mass-murder and cruelty in its name, I see current world problems and events exarcerbated, and I see wave after wave of misguided morons lead by corrupt and ignorant men under the banner of their faith.

This whole 'love thy neighbour' bit may be your ideal, but when I flick through the bible (recounting so many stories borrowed from various cultures and belief systems) I find instructions to stone promiscuous women to death on their father's doorstep, or to put men to death for daring to lie down with other men. I may be taking these things out of context, but they are a reflection through the ages of the 'ideals' that make up a faith. The very changeability of some religions is more damning than reassuring.

Anyway, what right have you to make assumptions about my life's experiences? You have no idea what I have been through in my short but eventful life. I am lucky enough to have been born in a relatively civilised country, so I can imagine that things might have been much worse for me - but I have been through some horrific experiences. I have been victim and witness to violence I never imagined (let alone saw on television), and I've been exposed to the lowest and meanest of human filth. I have been tested, pushed to the limits of endurance and sanity, and come out the other end still relatively content with life and capable of determining right from wrong (without religion, incidentally). My point is that someone less able to withstand some of the awful things that have happened in my life might well be the sort of person who falls upon religious faith to bolster themselves against such trials. Someone who is less able to determine for themselves what is right or wrong might feel the need for guidance by religion.

Agreed, this is more of a circumstantial argument - but it makes my opinion no less valid (if you read accurately). I agree that I may have been hasty to blame religion for acts of evil - but it still makes a damn fine excuse for those that use it. I could probably apply the same logic to something else, like Capitalist society, but it wouldn't be all that relevant right now (and I'm hard-pressed to think of a fitting example, anyway).

Finally, typo' pun aside, I think it is more the case that for every maniac who blames their pet dog, there are ten freaks who blame their faith. You're all welcome to present me with statistics that contend this suggestion, of course.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

Belladonna
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 06-22-2005 14:30

Now you're talking White Hawk, and I hope I didn't offend you with my "bass-ackward" statement, because that was not my intention.

I agree that religion does tend to draw more than it's fair share of obsessive people. And also, and more importantly, I think it draws more than it's fair share of the gullible. Therein lies a big portion of the problem. When you have a few that are powerful, seeking to use religion--and these are the ones who invariably rise to the top where there's more power--residing over large numbers of the meeker more gullible "faithful", then you can have a potential disaster waiting to happen on the whim of the elite.

As for the bible, well, it's no more than a history book with some moral truths mixed into it. And in my opinion, anything read in it has to be taken with a grain of salt, and the understanding that "God's Laws" were twisted and manipulated (and used) by self-righteous zealots.

But that doesn't mean that everyone who "has religion" is either (A) weak and gullible or (B)obsessive or (C)power seekers. I'm a religious person, in that I believe in God and have faith that things happen for a reason, good or bad. I've been through some really horrible things myself, and faith and prayer has gotten me through many of those things. But I don't belong to any organized religion, simply because I find that in church, more people tend to be hypocrytical than on the outside. A lone wolf rarely attacks, but put a pack of them together and they will tear you to bits. But that's human nature, not the fault of religion. And not only a "truth" about religion, but any organization that has strong beliefs. Unlike others, though, religion has the unique feature that it can claim the side of "right" and the authority of a "higher power". It's really sad.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 06-22-2005 16:21

Reality score: White Hawk 1
Belladonna .5

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 06-22-2005 16:43

No offence taken Belladonna (you put a big grin on my face, and I've already used that phrase twice today - sad, huh?) and please don't think I was suggesting that all with faith are without the full compliment of marbles.

By the way, welcome to the Ozone Asylum - unless you're an old inmate who has just re-joined or something.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 06-22-2005 18:16

I will agree with a portion of what you say. I have similar beliefs, I am just far more conservative with my conclusion. Correlation is not causation. I try to stick pretty close to this statement. This is one of the situations where this comes into play. When you start ascribing your cause based on surface observations you are becoming a politician, and you have lost your battle with reality.

As for my making assumptions, you opened up this can of worms yourself. I could be a dick and just say, what right do you have to tell me I can not, instead, I will just ride out your indignation, and point out that if you reread what I wrote you will find I made no direct reference to you or your experiences. I used the phase "really terrible" which is a very relative phrase.

When I say really terrible I do not mean some stuff that made you sick and caused you strife, when I say really terrible I mean some shit that rocks you entire foundation, breaks your core, and turns you into a shadow of what you were. In your follow up you even go on to say that you have been strained, but you have not been broken, you probably never will be, but there are people who have been, really terrible is relative.

As for the motivation, you have said you would not brain the infidel, but that is because you obviously do not feel a direct threat to your existence. You might counter by saying that religion is what gives that motivation, and I would will respond, that a loaded gun being constantly pointed at yourself and the ones you love as a motivation.

Dan @ Code Town

(Edited by WarMage on 06-22-2005 18:20)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 06-23-2005 01:18

Very true Warmage, and perhaps I am being over-sensational - but rather more 'gutter press' or 'tabloid journalist' than 'politician' I would hope.

I wasn't overly indignant, and I apologise if it came across like that - the question simply seemed most appropriate at the time; "What right have you to make that assumption?" - If it appears overly passionate, I can assure you that it was probably subconscious rather than overtly intentional.

To be honest, I have actually been turned into a complete wreck just once - torn apart, broken, destroyed, ripped to pieces, reduced to a shadow of myself... but it had nothing at all to do with life-threatening situations.
Oddly enough, it was all to do with my love for a beautiful and extraordinary, but violently abusive and unfaithful (older) woman. I was stripped of my dignity by the power weilded over me. I was young and foolish, and I virtually worshipped someone who flaunted her power until I was spent. Dangerous thing, worship...

But hey, you learn your lessons and move on, right?

As for that 'breaking point' you suggested, and in the context of the original subject of this thread - perhaps I may never really find mine, but you cannot possibly be suggesting that a woman who murders and beheads her daughter or a 'priest' who crucifies a woman unto death might have greater reason to do what they did because of personal trials and tribulations; that they reached a breaking point in the face of dire peril or a heart-rending ordeal, and this somehow mitigates the severity of the act?

I would rather assume that you mean these people have a lower threshold for adversity than I have. This I can believe, as they are obviously complete and utter bloody whack-jobs!

As for direct threats to my existence - again, how can you make that presumption?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 06-23-2005 02:15

Well, if you were in that situation I would make the assumption that some braining would be going on, but as everything I can only make my assumptions based on my own feelings, actions and observations. Might not apply to you, but I am under the impression that survival instincts are pretty universal, just handled on different levels.

As for terrible, you are correct, and the scale does slide both ways. And yes, those people are complete wack-jobs. But I will still hold that there is a tipping point there. It is all conjecture in the end, as this discorse has shown, but I think it helps in the global understanding in some small way.

You mean political and tabloid jornalism are not the same thing? As I live in the US A I might be pretty jaded.

Dan @ Code Town

Belladonna
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 06-23-2005 18:16

Thanks for the welcome White Hawk. For the record, no, I'm not a former inmate. Happened upon this site in web search (for something completely different-go figure) and found some of the topics interesting. Maybe I'll stick around awhile-- But I'm not much of a computer tech type, and most of this board seems to be about computers. So we'll see.

Glad I could make you smile! Bass ackward is kind of catchy

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 06-24-2005 15:01

Must be a Canadian Bella, I have been using that term since I first heard it from my father more than 50 years ago, but have encountered few Americans who are familiar with it.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Belladonna
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 06-24-2005 15:11

Nope, I'm from Virginia, but I have thought about moving to Canada just to escape the craziness America is becoming.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

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