Topic awaiting preservation: The Christian Paradox (Page 6 of 7)

Good points WS. DId I come off a bit pompous? Trying not to.

I'm gonna read it again, before I have anymore opposing opinions.

And yes, I will post where I find them.

Thank you for having opinions about my opinions, and being cordial.

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" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "

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WebShaman said:

Man is just an animal, albeit a thinking one. Evidence supports this.
Your stance, however, has no evidence supporting it. It is opinion and belief.

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I agree that evidence supports that we are most certainly animal, but one cannot conclude that we are *only* animal. Saying that human is *only* an animal is also opinion and belief.

Zynx, I don't think pointing to high intelligence indicates that humans are not animals. As WS points out, there are animals on this planet with very high intelligence.

I believe that what separates human from animal is the ability to think outside of ourselves. I think it's the ability to ask why, to ponder our existence, to distinguish right from wrong, and to long for immortality.

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I agree that evidence supports that we are most certainly animal, but one cannot conclude that we are *only* animal. Saying that human is *only* an animal is also opinion and belief.

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I would like to see your scientific evidence to the contrary, please.

It is no different than in the existence of God debates. Science has areas it can address and others it simply cannot. Science proves that human beings are indeed animals. Science does not disprove the existence of something more. I think it's important to be clear on these distinctions, right?

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As far as Science is concerned, there is no evidence (that I know of, anyway), that Humans are more than just animals.

If we decide to go outside of the realm of Science, then we can attach whatever we wish to the label human.

So yes, I feel it is important to be clear on these distinctions.

Science is limited in what it can do for us. What do you mean *if* we decide to go outside the realm of science? How can we not? If we did that, we would ignore art, philosophy, religion, etc. Science is an incredible boon for us to know and understand our physical existence but I know you recognize there is "more than this". I'm specifically thinking about your heritage and the knowledge of the spirit world it holds dear.

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Yes, but that "spirit world" cannot be scientifically proven, Bugs. So while I hold it dear (and I do, believe me), I cannot prove it to anyone.

These are distinctions that need to be clear (and the ones that I mentioned and have referred to).

Is a "soul" or a "spirit" scientifically measurable? Can such be proven to exist, scientifically?

And conversely, can it be proven scientifically that animals do not have them?

You know I believe in a "Supernature" that contains our Nature (re : everything) within it - that is beyond our science to explain or explore and measure, currently. But scientifically I cannot prove this.

I can hope that maybe one day, it will be possible. Or not, as the case may be.

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Is a "soul" or a "spirit" scientifically measurable? Can such be proven to exist, scientifically?

And conversely, can it be proven scientifically that animals do not have them?

You know I believe in a "Supernature" that contains our Nature (re : everything) within it - that is beyond our science to explain or explore and measure, currently. But scientifically I cannot prove this.

I can hope that maybe one day, it will be possible. Or not, as the case may be.

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Web

Your a paradox.

Your spiritual culture believe animals have spirits and souls for a purpose yet do not recognize humans which are more highly intelligent have souls and spirits for a purpose.

What is the reason why a wolf would have a soul or spirit. Give us all here a lesson in Indian mysticism.

No Jade, you are mis-understanding me (maybe on purpose?) - I do think that all things have spirits. I just cannot prove this, scientifically, one way or the other.

Do you understand this?

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I do think that all things have spirits.

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I am asking you for details....like why do you think all things have spirits. Not why it cannot be proven. Why does your indian culture believe this way? Who started this belief? It had to originate somewhere. Where?

Please enlighten me.

I see where man has it's beginnings, and DNA of animals. I see this more and more I research anything. I didn't do my investigating as thourough as I could have.

When I started in this thread, I was dealing with this idea that, what is seen in the animal world, mirrors man. I can now see that. But no one seems to want to see the many other things man is capable of, that is not seen in the animal world.

These capabilities leap beyond animal beginnings. Previously mentioned actions of man, are not simple ideas. They are amazingly different from anything animal-like.

So while I do now see that man is undeniably animal, it does not mean we are only that.

As for the recent idea of spirit/soul or not, I don't see that having any bearing on man's superiority on this planet. Mystically it might explain things, but after all is said and done, man is on top of the food chain.

exept when he is alone in nature.

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

Where it started? With the First People. Back then, Man, Animal, and All Things could speak with one another. My People believe that Man and Animal belong to the People.

There are a number of old stories that describe how these things then came to be how they are now. Most describe fallings out, feyds, jealousy, and such.

I personally see "spirits" as energy fields. I believe these energy fields haven't yet been discovered or measured by science yet. I'm not sure if one can actually "speak" in that sense, with these energy fields, but I do think one can communicate with them (influence).

When one is in a trance state, and one is in the invisible world, I think the brain "translates" such communication (influnces) into a form that we can readily grasp.

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-29-2005 07:37)

Web
Well.... that didn't really answer my question. I wanted maybe some more detailed history on why you believe. It seems you believe they way you do because its just out there in your culture back when somebody started a myth. You seem to not be relating by personal experience, just on what other people have handed down to you by stories.
So your belief has no base or foundation.

Sounds familiar on what you accuse Xians in how they believe.

I "believe" because I have encountered them. Experienced them.

WS, that is the same answer the xians give and is no more supportable.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

No Dio. I have directly experienced such. I don't consider this the same. You may, but that is unimportant to me. I know what I experienced, and I don't particularly care how you see it.

Well, under what conditions did you enjoy this experience?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

A couple of times in my dreams, a couple of times in trance, once in a time of great danger.

Many Christians say they have directly experienced the holy spirit.
WebShaman says he has directly experienced spirits in nature.

I don't see the difference.

WebShaman, you may not consider your answer to be the same as the answer the Christians give, yet it is.

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I have directly experienced such. I don't consider this the same. You may, but that is unimportant to me. I know what I experienced, and I don't particularly care how you see it.

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Sounds very much like many of the Christian responses we have seen on many of these threads.

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couple of times in my dreams, a couple of times in trance, once in a time of great danger.

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Well....would you like to share the experience of the encounters, dreams, etc with us? Or, does it have to be a secret tribe tabu kind of thing you cannot relate?

I dream of stuff too and it seems real but it doesn't mean anything unless I want to pin point it to an experience. Or I go off on a meditative daydreaming state every now and then where I forget where I am at.. What makes yours different from mine in the way of my spiritual beliefs?

Well, the dreams are easy - I can control my dreams, so dreaming is a particular pleasure of mine - flying, having adventures - a lot of fun. Sometimes it is fun to just drift along, to see where the dream will take me.

Occasionally, I will have what is called a "waking Dream" - where color, smell, and feel is very, very vivid - it is not possible to tell the dream apart from reality. And control of the Dream in this state, although possible, doesn't always obey the normal laws of dreams (being that you can shape it as you will) - sometimes, though you can shape pieces of it, it seems to have a life and will of its own, that resists such measures - that is the presence of a spirit (or spirits), that is counteracting your will, so I have been told.

Here one can meet spirits, sometimes.

I used to induce these states much easier with a Sensory Deprivation Tank - do you know what that is? Since it removes most of the sensory perception of the body, the brain becomes "starved" for input - and makes reaching very vivid dream-states easy.

Sometimes spirits take the form of animals, sometimes of objects, blobs, patterns, etc. It is a very strange feeling that one gets in their presence - the feeling of sentience. Sometimes they cause the dreamscape, if you will, to react very strangely.

Trances are deep meditative states. There are different levels of Trances, and many incredible things have been scientifically recorded being done by those in Trances. I never really reached any of the really deep levels - that takes years of training and dedication, I am told.

Here the spirits were much better defined (I am told, the mind is able to better concentrate on them in Trance). Though I never took drugs to enter such Trances, I am told there are some drugs that can be used to do so.

I never met any spirits while under the influence of marijuana, speed, mushrooms or LSD.

I'm not interested in discussing the time I was in great danger. That is personal, and belongs to me.

I haven't been active in Trances or in attempting to reach the "Waking Dreams" anymore, since the time of great danger.

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Sounds very much like many of the Christian responses we have seen on many of these threads.

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You may consider it however you choose. But consider this, please - are the memories that you have of events, real? Did those events really happen?

The difference between what I am letting you know, and what they claim, are fundamental, IMHO - I was asked, I did not force you to hear my words. My words are based on real experiences that I have had - you may judge them as you see fit, but that will not change the fact that such has happened to me, that I experienced them.

Spirits, and experiencing them first hand, is not the same as the "Holy Spirit" - not at all. Feeling the "Holy Spirit" is a feeling of great Rapture - I know, I was once a very religous xian and I have experienced it. I can tell you, it is not the same. The feeling in the presence of a spirit is not a feeling of great Rapture, it is a feeling of prickling on the back of your neck - like a superstitous one, that goes right down to your animal core. A feeling off being observed by a sentience, in the presence of one. Some are friendly (well, that is how they "feel" - hard to explain), some are indifferent, and a few are hostile. Some are frollicky, some are mischevious. Some are dangerous. One can interact with spirits (and they in turn, react to what one does). One cannot interact with the Holy Spirit like that.

Again, I do not expect (nor do I need) you to pay any heed to my words or experiences. I am answering that which was asked of me, and pointing out differences in comparisons made.

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-29-2005 21:34)

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I "believe" because I have encountered them. Experienced them.

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thanks for sharing - if you shared it before i must have missed it - it helps me to better understand your points - though your logic still baffles me at times. (i don't play that game very well)

Sorry WS, sounds a whole lot like haluccinations to me.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Sooo...your memories are hallucinations, as well?

Well, amybe you are right. Certainly within the realm of possibility.

Well, technically, yes.

But the same can, and has been said about reality as well. One big shared hallucination, or maybe not shared.

All of that doesn't really matter. I have seen things that I "know" do not really exist. Fine. I have memories of things that I could have sworn happened, that did not really happen. Fine. The mind is a complex organ, I have no idea of all the things that are going on in there.

Diogenes, it could be that for you. And it could be something very different to WS. The same exact experience can be interpreted innumerable ways to different people and that is life and the nature of human intelligence.

There is absolutely no problem with this.

The problem comes up when a person decides that their delusions are the only real ones and that everyone must follow them, or face some kind of repercussion.

When you come down to the finality of it, all of our ideas and dreams are not worth anything. Time will go on, and we will all eventually be blotted out.

Dan @ Code Town

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The problem comes up when a person decides that their delusions are the only real ones and that everyone must follow them, or face some kind of repercussion.

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Yes, a very good point.

Now, believe in the spirits, or I'm going to have ta scalp tha lot O yers...

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When you come down to the finality of it, all of our ideas and dreams are not worth anything. Time will go on, and we will all eventually be blotted out.

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I once had a boss who used to say; "In the overall scheme of things fuck all matters." So any time he got on my case about something I would say... 'in the overall.....' =)

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"In the overall scheme of things fuck all matters."

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To which I say, "Every tapestry is made up of threads. Without the threads, no muster or tapestry."

(Edited by WebShaman on 10-02-2005 11:21)

I told ya so; http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16745821%255E30417,00.html

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Interesting article. Thanks for posting.

This part really stuck out

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He suggests most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God proved scientifically. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there were a marked decline in religious belief.

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I've been thinking about the Religious Right in America for awhile now. I think I am beiginning to see what I think is a broad, planned attack across the boards - in Government, in the Schools, and in the World.

We all know what has happened in the Muslim world, because of such fanatical thinking. The Taliban, Iran, and Al Qaida (among others).

Do we really want to repeat this with xianity?

WS, it certainly appears there is a voluble group who would dearly love to have fundamentalist xianity rule, at least, the US.

Perhaps we should encourage all such thinkers to spend a year in Afghanistan or some other brutal fundamentalist regime?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Wouldn't matter.

Such people would never see the paralell - *their* god is a loving god, *their* religion is the right religion, etc.

I have to agree with DL, here. It really wouldn't make any difference - other than perhaps fueling the faith in one's own god more.

I agree with both of you, it just pleases my sense of justice to imagine them surviving such circumstances.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Wouldn't matter. Such people would never see the paralell - *their* god is a loving god, *their* religion is the right religion, etc.

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Forget about "such people", and their ideals. I only hope that such an attempt would show others that Islam supports itself with ancient non-muslim, ways of thinking.

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

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Forget about "such people", and their ideals.

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Hard to forget "such people", when they are making the laws, and blowing themselves up in crowded locals, isn't it?

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Zynx said:

Forget about "such people", and their ideals. I only hope that such an attempt would show others that Islam supports itself with ancient non-muslim, ways of thinking.

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well....'such people' are what we were talking about...

I have no idea what you are trying to say in regard to Islam...

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I have no idea what you are trying to say in regard to Islam..

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I'm glad that someone else is having a hard time understanding what he said about Islam
because

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I only hope that such an attempt would show others that Islam supports itself with ancient non-muslim, ways of thinking.

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makes no sense, whatsoever, to me.

Anyone else want to take a shot at it?

(Edited by WebShaman on 10-05-2005 16:38)

Nope, he is either trying to be enigmatic or is just plain stupid.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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WebShaman said:

Spirits, and experiencing them first hand, is not the same as the "Holy Spirit" - not at all. Feeling the "Holy Spirit" is a feeling of great Rapture - I know, I was once a very religous xian and I have experienced it.

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First of all, I thank you for sharing your views about your beliefs, WS. I found it very enlightening and it helps me to understand where you're coming from better. What you say about the Holy Spirit here is incorrect Xianity in my understanding. I assume you're referring to what in the Xian world would be called "charismatic". Many "pentecostal" churches believe that the Holy Spirit can cause a Xian to become "caught up" in the Spirit in sort of a state of ecstasy. Often times it is accompanied by convulsions and speaking in strange tongues or what is thought to be angelic or heavenly language.

I do not believe this kind of experience with the Holy Spirit is from God. I believe it is a practice borrowed from early pagan religions when the church was still young. I think Paul was dealing with this issue in the letters he wrote to the Corinthian church where there were many different religions present in that city.

So I find it particularly interesting that you believe this is how Xianity views interacting with the Holy Spirit.

My understanding of true interaction with the Holy Spirit is one that directly and consistently produces the following traits and actions from a believing Xian: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

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WarMage said:

When you come down to the finality of it, all of our ideas and dreams are not worth anything. Time will go on, and we will all eventually be blotted out.

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This taken to its logical conclusion is what is called nihilism. If you really believe that is true then one can say in the words of one celebrated atheist:

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Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.

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Forget that I'm a Xian for the moment. I will tell you that I do assume "God". I begin with that. When we get to the specific God I believe is there, I accept the claims of Xianity but if I had never heard of Christ, I would still believe in a transcendent being. I was thinking about this very thing early this morning. I was thinking back to my earliest memories as a child and how I "knew" of a higher power. I do not offer that as any sort of proof but simply to share my thoughts.

I'm curious to know how the atheists here came to be so. Did you start off thinking there was a god or did you never think there was? I would love to hear about that.

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Zynx said:

Forget about "such people", and their ideals. I only hope that such an attempt would show others that Islam supports itself with ancient non-muslim, ways of thinking.

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I really have no clue as to what you're talking about either, Zynx. But when I first read this sentence the only thing that popped into my mind was how a few of the more horrific practices in the Muslim world can really be traced back to Arab culture and not the Muslim religion. By any chance could that be what you're talking about?

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WebShaman said:

We all know what has happened in the Muslim world, because of such fanatical thinking. The Taliban, Iran, and Al Qaida (among others).

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Please be careful to not ignore history on this one. Xianity and Judaism have undergone reformations over the years that challenged and dealt with the fundamentalist/fanatical question. The Muslim religion has yet to do this. It is something that I hope will happen sooner rather than later.

The Judeo-Christian tradition upon which much of our American experience is based is really a unique entity. American Xianity is very much different that European Xianity for instance. Take a look at how the European Xians treated the Jews over the centuries whereas American Xians are the best friends Jews have ever had.

While there is certainly a fringe element in this country among the religious right, I don't think you guys fully understand most Xians and otherwise religious people in this country. There are a great many educated and decent people that are not always as vocal as the radicals who I think you underestimate.

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