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briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 08-24-2005 22:17

Open letter to Dr. Laura

quote:
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?




Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 08-24-2005 23:17

Canadians may not be owned. I am not certain of other nationalities in this matter however.

Canadians may however, be leased under certain circumstances.

Take warning though, there are stiff financial penalties for not returning then in the same condition in which they were received ie; alive, not dead if received alive. Pregnant if received not pregnant (applies to both males and females), battered, bruised, maimed or missing body parts if they were delivered with all intact.

There is a wide selection of Canadians currently available for lease as American tourism to Canada in the wake of 9/11 has dropped off and there are many seeking other forms of gainful employ.

There is a handsome fee paid by the lessor to your loyal agent as well...in advance...in cash, negotiable securities, precious metals or occasionally, sexual favours.

Please contact me for a four-coloured catalogue.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

DmS
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Sthlm, Sweden
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 08-25-2005 09:57

I've seen this before, but I just LOVE it!

Personally I can't for the life of me see how a person with a firm belief in "the old christian ways" and who uses passages from the bible to condemn or condone different actions or behaviour can do it with a straight face after seeing things like this.

But on the other hand, I guess blind faith defies logic...
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{Proudly running OSX, Debian, WXP, W98, well not so proudly on the last 2...}-
-{ “There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. - Jeremy S. Anderson" }-
-{"Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.”}-

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-25-2005 11:30

Hehe...

I think that was Jade's cue, wasn't it?

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 08-25-2005 21:27

Small wonder she missed it. I suppose whe might twig now though.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Zynx
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2005

posted posted 08-26-2005 02:07
quote:
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


Seriously, who still walks around in todays age, and stinks, such thoughts.

Is this another "onion" attack?

(Edited by Zynx on 08-26-2005 02:10)

Raeubu
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: Kennewick, WA, USA
Insane since: Aug 2005

posted posted 08-27-2005 13:16

Speaking of "The Onion", I got some entertainment out of this: The Onion: 2056

___________________________________
Quidquid Latine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur ~
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-27-2005 17:00

Zynx - this is blatant sarcasm with a very definite and important point:

quote:
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet.



In other words, if leviticus is to be used to determine the status of homosexuality, then what about all these other very absurd laws in leviticus? If we're going to condemn a group of people because a book of laws in the bible says so, then people who support this view better be ready to live up to the rest of those laws!

It's not a simple 'stupid humor' kind of thing like you find on the Onion. It's much more important than such things.
And its done with great humor as well - all the better to show someone who espouses such a belief how silly they are being.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-27-2005 19:19

Not only that, what DL has pointed out, but also the Rules for determining a Messiah as well!

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-28-2005 00:32

Well, if she is a Jew then she has no problems not believing Jesus to be the Messiah.

Dan @ Code Town

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-28-2005 01:22

whoa, whole different issue there...

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-28-2005 02:01

*sigh*
I want to point out one thing here DL that you seemed to miss in your conjecture about the interpretations of Leviticus. Most Christians are sheep who are led by a shepherd (ie. Pastor or Priest). Now, according to what that shepherd believes about scripture, you get differing Christian beliefs. And then you get even more different beliefs from those who decide to read the Bible themselves. So you will have Pastors and Priests with the occasional Christian who actually read outside of Leviticus and find other scriptures that confirm/deny what sins are. And even more daring Christians find out that it really isn't our place to condemn those who are sinners, but it is definitely our place to love them.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-28-2005 02:04

Yes, but we are talking about the Old Testament here. If Xians are going to be using the Old Testament, to say that God considers Homosexuality wrong, then they have to accept the rules that define a Messiah - and we all know that Jesus doesn't qualify.

Conversely (and this is pretty funny, really) if one doesn't accept Leviticus, then one begins to suspect as well the Rules for defining a Messiah - which would lend more support for the Xians that Jesus may be the Messiah after all!

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-28-2005 02:15

Maybe, but I'm quisical about the "Rules for defining a Messiah." Are these rules taken directly from the OT, or are they defined by other Jewish material? If they are taken from the OT, are these "Rules" completely and uterly clear as to what for and when the Messiah is here? Also, do these "Rules" all have to be fulfilled at one time, or are they relating to different times in the history of the world?

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-28-2005 03:14

GO LOOK IT UP!

I've posted such here on the Forums before.

Belladonna
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 08-28-2005 05:26

As far as the laws in leviticus and the rest, this is how I look at it. It may be wrong....whatever. I personally find it hard to believe that God would sanction the outright killing of homosexuals, adulters etc etc when it contradicts "thou shalt not kill". And I honestly think that most of those laws that are supposed to be "defining" the ten commandments are laws that were made in order to please and quiet the masses....people still killed, people still broke the laws and had to have punishment. People blamed others for breaking a law so on and so forth.

I have a legitimate reason for thinking this.....when asked why Moses gave the law for divorce, Jesus said Moses gave it because the people's hearts were hard. Now, looking back to the law for divorce in the Old Testament, it says that the Lord gave it himself...."Thus sayeth the Lord...". Jesus, who Christians equate with God, denies it flat out. So, if Moses made up one law, he probably made up more of them.

Of course, this all means nothing to Jews, since they don't believe that Jesus was who he said he was. And since some people think they (the Jews) are the most reliable when it comes to the Bible.....why are they not following their own commandments and still sacrificing animals, stoning adulters, and following all the rest of those crazy sub-laws to the letter.

Now, one could say that if I question the laws, then I would have to question the entire bible by default, since it is all supposed to be divinely inspired, every single word of it. But this is not necessarily so in my opinion. It may have been divinely inspired, but it was still written by erring human hands. I said before that the bible is like three books in one...history, laws, and spiritual. And that laws were probably mostly manipulated, followed by spiritual things to back them up. One has to look at motive behind these things, but I feel the bible has (spiritually) much more right than wrong. That's just me though, and how I look at it.

So why would Moses write a law to kill someone for breaking a commandment, when doing so is breakiing a commandment? I don't know. Maybe because they didn't have a jail or penal system. Didn't know what else to do with them. Instill fear of death and hope they would obey the commandments, I don't know.

And really, I don't think it's something I want to fret over anyway. I don't plan on stoning any adulteres--I've got my own problems to worry about.

EDIT: And before anyone even says that you cannot "pick and choose" which passages to believe and which passages to disregard--this is NOT picking and choosing. This is using a little common sense and looking at the bible as a whole, instead of reading one verse. This is about knowing in your heart that it is not right to kill or pass personal judgement when we each have our own little demons to deal with.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

(Edited by Belladonna on 08-28-2005 05:44)

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 08-28-2005 07:31

yes, yes BD, rationalize again.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-28-2005 13:20

It is picking and choosing. And that is fine. It is your religion.

The problem isn't the religion. The problem isn't reading the bible.

The problem is people who read the bible and pick the sections they like that would allow them to hate others, to justify their unjust actions.

This problem comes to this ugly head when those same people would take only snippets of these sections, and use them to support the hate that they have, but ignore other sections that condone their own failures.

That is hypocracy, and that is what many people are.

Dan @ Code Town

Belladonna
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 08-28-2005 16:13
quote:
The problem is people who read the bible and pick the sections they like that would allow them to hate others, to justify their unjust actions.

This problem comes to this ugly head when those same people would take only snippets of these sections, and use them to support the hate that they have, but ignore other sections that condone their own failures.

That is hypocracy, and that is what many people are.



I totally agree with that.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-28-2005 16:34

Of course, the problem of picking and choosing is not limited to those who use it to hate/attack. I don't think I have ever met a christian who did not, in whatever way, with whatever level of justification, pick and choose the parts of the bible that fit with their personal outlook.

While this kind of picking and choosing is less harmful than when it is used for hate, violence, repression, the principle is still the same.

quote:

Gideon said:

*sigh*
I want to point out one thing here DL that you seemed to miss in your conjecture about the interpretations of Leviticus. Most Christians are sheep who are led by a shepherd (ie. Pastor or Priest). Now, according to what that shepherd believes about scripture, you get differing Christian beliefs. And then you get even more different beliefs from those who decide to read the Bible themselves. So you will have Pastors and Priests with the occasional Christian who actually read outside of Leviticus and find other scriptures that confirm/deny what sins are. And even more daring Christians find out that it really isn't our place to condemn those who are sinners, but it is definitely our place to love them.



Ok, and why are you telling me this?

First of all, there is no "conjecture" on my part in this thread (or anywhere else) about the interpretation of anything.

Did you read the page that was linked to?

This is pretty straightforward, and how you can be confused over anything here is quite beyond me. Let's break it down:

phase 1) Dr. Laura rants on her radio program about how homosexuality is an 'abomination of nautre' and using - soley - the fact that Leviticus 18:22 says so.

phase 2) Some person decides this ridiculous basis needs to be addressed, and points out the other things that leviticus has to say, for the sake of pointing out that *nobody* in their right mind would enforce *those* laws, so therefore the one line about homosexuality, in the middle of all these other things, is meaningless.

this has nothing to do with the christian view, and I couldn't care less about the christian view. The woman in question, as you can see by reading what was posted above, is jewish, not christian. Your view of what a christian's place is has no relevance whatsoever.
This has nothing to do with other parts of the bible, as the initial statement, and the rebuttal, were both DIRECTLY in relation to leviticus.

"*sigh*" ?

Figure out what is being talked about before shooting your mouth off, perhaps?

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 08-28-2005 17:21

Divinely inspired, perhaps, but filtered throughthe minds, ideas and morals of the writers. And human's are inherently distrustful of anything and anyone that's 'different'. Thus... we get what we've got.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-29-2005 00:37

I agree WM, and the bio of Douglass Adam's has some pretty clear definitions of this picking and choosing.

I'm sorry DL, I thought you were talking about Christians when you mentioned the Bible. Thus my explaination. My bad. If you were talking about Jewish customs, I am regretably uninformed on present Jewish customs. I was under the impression that they had, in some cases, changed, but I don't know why.

Yes WS, you have posted links and quotes. I commend you for finding them. Good job.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 08-29-2005 02:07

I don't know anything about jewish customs either.

However, simply reading what was posted would clear up anything that is unclear, as what was posted explains specifically what I was talking about and why.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 08-29-2005 02:42

Well, I enjoyed that thoroughly!

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-29-2005 07:01

Afaik, the Jewish customs haven't changed much since Moses - except I think that some of the Stoning laws have changed...

I actually know very little about Jewish practices and customs, as well.

The problem I see, with "Picking&Choosing" what one wishes to interpret so (or so) from the Bible, is that what does one use as a Standard to measure against?

I have heard common sense - but clearly, that doesn't work!

Belladonna
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 08-29-2005 19:30
quote:
The problem I see, with "Picking&Choosing" what one wishes to interpret so (or so) from the Bible, is that what does one use as a Standard to measure against?



Are you speaking of measuring what God is really like? The only answer I can give is that I measure by the many passages that talk about his love. No different from how atheists measure by all the passages that show God as evil or vendictive.

The only difference is, I can then apply the "bad" passages (commands to kill all in a conquered territory, commands to kill for breaking the original commandments so and so forth) to the acts of man....it makes sense to do so to me because man has always manipulated and justified for a reason or cause that he wants to push, be it with good intentions or bad intentions. But atheists cannont attribute the "good" passages to man or God. (Well, maybe some, but it would not make any sense to ME to apply ALL the good passages to man--when our nature is more animalistic than godlike)

I guess that could be called picking and choosing by some. Or even rationalization. But at least I'm picking the good ones and not pouncing on certain groups of people, or individuals who I "think need to find God" like a lot of Christians do. I'm happy with it anyway.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-29-2005 19:58
quote:
Are you speaking of measuring what God is really like?



No. I am speaking of trying to decide what Standard to use, to interpret what to Take, and what to Leave from the Bible. Who then decides what this Standard is?

(Edited by WebShaman on 08-30-2005 08:30)

Belladonna
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 08-29-2005 21:23
quote:
Who then decides what this Standard is?



I guess the true heart and colors of the individual reading the bible will take what he or she feels right out of the bible. And I think (and this is total personal opinion here) that it was meant to be that way.

I know that you and I disagree on a lot, but I feel by some of the things you have posted that you are just as much a humanitarian as I am. Most atheists are much more so than most "christians". So the way I see it, is just because an atheist can't wrap their mind around God, doesn't mean that He's not in their hearts, no matter if you recognize it or admit it. That is not to say ALL atheists, but some of them. There are hate filled atheists just like there are hate filled christians.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-30-2005 08:34

And the way I see it, one can be a humanitarian without god in your heart (in fact, it is actually easier, I find, as I don't need to worry about all the stuff in the Bible anymore and can concentrate soley upon my actions and the consequences of them).

Belladonna
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jun 2005

posted posted 08-30-2005 10:08

Consequently, in my life off of this particular website, I don't need to worry about all that stuff in the bible either. Only the "finger pointers" have to worry about it and find justifications.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 08-30-2005 10:27

^ Good point.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 09-01-2005 00:57

WS, I want to apologize for my earlier remark. You went to all the trouble of looking up links and quotes, I should be greatful you even did that. I have learned over the past week that education is better (in my mind) than indoctrination most of the time, and that is what you were trying to do. You had the boldness to post those sites, running the risk that I would disagree with you. I have just been such a jerk. And a fool too. Most of the qualifications we went over in SS for a fool in Proverbs I had qualified for. I am trying to turn a new leaf, but I can promise you that it won't happen over night.
Already thanks to you, and a few others on this forum, I have changed drastically from an indoctrinated, close-minded, bigot to a more open and inquisical point of view. I'm not quite grown enough to be able to look at everthing without bias (although I doubt too many people can really perform that feat), I just want to thank you personally and the others who have rustled the feathers of my prior beliefs. Thank you.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-01-2005 07:41

Ok Gid. That does sound promising...

Please forgive me if I am a bit skeptical about you turning a new leaf.

I will welcome it with open arms, if true, however.

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 09-02-2005 06:21

I completely understand why you are skeptical, and I will asure you that the change from a self-righteous bigot to humble, open-minded man will not be easy and will take a while. Fortunately, I am kept in check by a few of my teachers who advocate logical thinking and an open mind. I promise you that the progress I will make this year will pale in comparison to that of the last. And I want to offer you my gratitude, again, for putting up with me in the infancy of my journey. You and all the others who hammered and questioned my beliefs. Thank you.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-02-2005 07:58
quote:
You and all the others who hammered and questioned my beliefs



I want to be very clear here - it is not your beliefs that got hammered, but the processes that you used to arrive to conclusions.

Therein lies the difference.

I, and many others, stated repeatedly that you are truly free to believe what you wish - just don't state it as fact, when it has been proven to be false.

Diogenes
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 09-02-2005 18:07

Beware a leopard changing spots.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 09-05-2005 19:50

Ok. I was under the impression that it was my beliefs that had been attacked previously. May just be my preception of it. Either way, you put up with me. Thanks.

From now on WS, I will try my hardest only to state things as possibilities when they are such, facts when they have been proven, and personal beliefs when they aren't proven.

Actually D-man, I would fetch a video camera, cause that don't happen very often.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-05-2005 19:55
quote:
Actually D-man, I would fetch a video camera, cause that don't happen very often.



Exactly

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 09-05-2005 20:40

My point.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-05-2005 23:21
quote:
From now on WS, I will try my hardest only to state things as possibilities when they are such, facts when they have been proven, and personal beliefs when they aren't proven.



Follow your heart with your brain.

In other words, live, get out there, have experiences, make grand thoughts, fall on your butt, make a fool of yourself - but don't forget to pack along a big dose of reason and critical eye.

Reason to know why you fell on your butt, and reason for when you make a fool out of yourself, to keep from doing the same thing again. A critical eye, to weigh and evalute the living, getting out there, the experiences, and the grand thoughts.

The world is your Oyster - enjoy it, because it will all be over all too soon, the fires and brashness of youth.

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