Topic awaiting preservation: Well this settles it (Page 1 of 2)

The whole family just doesn't get it.....

quote:

---

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway - so this is working very well for them."

---

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Hurricane_Katrina/0,,2-10-1942_1767220,00.html


I have poor friends.
I have friends who are poor.
I have friends who are black.
I have black friends.

This is what passes for enlightened comment and senstitivity amongst the Bush Klan.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Yeah, heard about that the other day. They're all out to lunch on this one. Here's the audio clip.

Getting sick of hearing all the politicians slapping themselves on the back too. People are still dying, STILL trapped in homes, and all we hear is how awesome they are. "I'd like to thank...." Piss off. The whole thing is sickening, the sluggish response, the funding cuts for the levees, the head of FEMA with no credentials in crisis management, the list goes on and on.

I think the clip that sums up the entire mess the best is Aaron Broussard, President of Jefferson Parish on Meet the Press last Sunday blasting FEMA and the Fed response. If you missed it, click here. He actually states that FEMA turned away incoming aid. More on that here.

While we're on the subject, Dick Cheney was told to go fuck himself on live television today while he was down in Mississippi talking about what a wonderful job they are doing. (video here)

As an aside, just a heads up to anyone looking to donate, stay away from "Operation Blessing".

Ram

quote:

---

People are still dying, STILL trapped in homes

---

This is the single, most important thing right now. Until we have gotten past this point, finger-pointing is counter-productive.

But make no mistake, when the time comes, to point the finger...

Responsible individuals are going to pay.

This is huge. We have lost a hell of a lot more Americans than any terrorist organization could dream of inflicting.

Where is the ARMY of millions, to help? The leadership, the organizations, the material?

All these questions, and more, will be demanding an answer.

But first get as many people out as possible, and get them to safety. Then put a system of support in place, to keep them safe.

I know where you're coming from WS. I must admit though, I have been doing a lot of finger pointing. I cannot help myself, because this has got to be the most disgusting thing I have ever witnessed on American soil. You know, if it were just simply them cutting funding on the levees or the fact that Bush disabled FEMA when he folded into DHS it might have waited, but when I hear about people in the Superdome for 3 days before FEMA even found out about it (I think it was Brian Williams who woke Brown up to that), FEMA cutting off relief and emergency communications lines, and using valuable volunteers with search & rescue and firefighting experience to hand out flyers and do "public relations", it is time to start screaming for things to get done and heads to roll.

Had the finger pointing not begun, one has to wonder if it wouldn't have taken another couple days for them to get their asses in gear. One day, press conferences/we're on our way, two days, press conferences/relief efforts are going great, three days, press conferences/we're making progress, four days, oh there they are.

The flood was only the beginning of the catastrophe we have witnessed, the second is gross government incompetence.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Yes, all good points but that is not helping matters now!

The utmost priority is saving those that can be saved now - it is called cutting your losses.

Believe me, wait until we get to a point where we really have a time to reflect on things. Wait until the people involved have a chance to speak, and to consider.

In the meantime, although I tend to share your concerns, I say get what we can moving, and make the best out of what we can now, and save what we can.

Afterwards, I expect to see heads ROLL!

The events conspiring to what happened, has happened, and is continuing to happen, in New Orleans, has me mad as hell.

If they don't, I think we will see the biggest backlash against American Government that has ever been seen in recent history.

One of the worst (and maybe, the best) things about this, is that it may totally overshadow the nominations to the Supreme Court - The Worst I sincerely hope that Mr. Bush doesn't get to use this opportunity to "sneak in" some rabid Right-Wingers onto the Supreme Court, while everyone's tongue is wagging about New Orleans and the Public mind is distracted with it.
The Best Hopefully, the amount of rage at Mr. Bush because of New Orleans will totally shoot down any chances that he might have to get those right-wingers on the Supreme Court.

Don't count on any heads rolling. The one thing the pols and bureaucrats are good at doing is diverting blame and responsibility. Hell, the worst offenders will likely get pay raises and promotions.

The head of FEMA is quoted in todays news here as saying it was three days AFTER the catastrophe that he knew the domes was a refuge.

Must have been playing spoons to accompany Dumbya on his git-tar at the ranch.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Dio, though I can understand your cynicism, there are examples of Heads Rolling in American Government, and I am sure that there will be more added to it in the times to come.

I sincerely hope that New Orleans will sponser some, because it is desperately needed, as events have shown.

WS:

quote:

---

but that is not helping matters now!

---

I do understand your point but I think you can do both... that is 'help ' and 'bash' at the same time.

It is valid for several reasons, in my opinion, to reveal the shortcomings as they become apparent. Foremost perhaps is that I do not have the confidence that goverments at any level but usually the highest first will, actually pull out all stops to mount the required effort.

Illustrative of this and in this particular case with Katrina, I point to the revelation that 'Federal' officials directed the various rescue and relief personnel who had already gathered, to hold thier positions and not move in until there'd been a 'direct request' from the lower levels of government. With the possible exception of 'war' Gov'ts tend to do the least they can possibly get away with in 'all' situations unless massive pressure is applied.

I say this facestiously (but only somewhat) =) had the Mayor of New Orleans not blasted both State and Federal officials I can't help but think rescue personnel would still be looking-on.

Also, to *wait* allows the various levels of gov't to say things like; '...well nobody said anything at the time so your points are not valid.' Let's not forget that memories are short...and unpleasant memories the most difficult to deal with.

And lastly but by no means least, I go back to 'Momma Bush'

quote:

---

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway - so this is working very well for them."

---

This is a wonderfully revealing statement of a mindset that must be followed by, The fruit doesn't fall too far from the tree... and all that.

I seriously doubt the massive aid packages would have passed through both houses at the speed they did without, the massive outcry there was/is. The way I see it, those doing the 'hands-on' plus victims, benefit from the outcry/bashing.

I sincerely hope you are right WS and if so I shall cheer along with you as the tumbrils rattle them on to their appointment with Madame La Guillotine.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Well - it seems that the accountability may be beginning... FEMA Director Removed from Hurricane Duties Not much yet - but a beginning at least.

NoJive, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and pointing the finger and demanding that heads roll. Surely this is clear, right?

I understand what you are saying, but to save lives, and to cut losses, constructive criticism is better at the moment than diverting the energy into finger pointing and heated accusations, that distract from the main problem.

I said the same during the Gulf War II.

Document the problems, and things that did not get done, certaintly.

And let us not forget, this thing isn't over yet. Not by a long shot. People are still dying, people need shelter, support, food, and medical attention. Grit our teeth in anger, and get this done first, because it is obviously the first priority.

Then fry the f**king bastards who were responsible for screwing things up, which has resulted in more deaths than Al Qaida did on 9-11.

WS:

quote:

---

there is a difference between constructive criticism, and pointing the finger and demanding that heads roll.

---

And it is usually better sooner, rather than later, to remove an apendage to prevent the spread of the gangreen.

quote:

---

Surely this is clear, right?

---

=)

When time is of the essence, and lives are on the line, one doesn't replace the head of an organization supposed to be supplying help UNLESS that head is doing nothing (or harm). That leads to things being slowed down, if not downright stopped, as the new leadership gets put into place, etc.

Lives are lost, as a result.

I don't see anything positive coming from that.

quote:

---

UNLESS that head is doing nothing (or harm)

---

Well when the guy in charge says it was 3 days before he knew the convention center and football stadium were being used to house people what can I say. I can't believe he's not sitting in front of a wall of TV sets monitoring every channel while at the same time listening to those around him.

We'll agree to disagree.

Sidebar.... just heard an interesting statistic on CNN from Frank Sezno. Paraphrase '... I'm not a fan of google research but if you google 'Katrina + heroism' you will get 200k plus hits. If you search 'Katrina + criticism' you'll get more than 3 million hits.'

And it's my opinion that if those numbers were reversed the Feds would still be dilly-dallying.

I agree WS. In an emergency the first job it to take care of, you count the cost and behead the screw-ups later.

Still, NJ has a point, it can be very helprful to eliminateas many of the screwups as possible as soon as possible.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

quote:

---

NoJive: With the possible exception of 'war' Gov'ts tend to do the least they can possibly get away with in 'all' situations unless massive pressure is applied.

---

So true. War is an obvious exception due to the massive amounts of influence and pressure that specific sector holds.

Moon Dancer: It is my guess he was removed not because of his failure in the position (ie accountability) but for the info released yesterday that he allegedly fudged his resume to get said position.

Of course, we are likely to see some memos come out in the near future as well which may shed some more light into this.

Perhaps the demotion was somebody covering their ass. It seems routine to try and push the blame as far down the totem pole as possible, and since the White House is having a hard time pushing it onto the local yokels alone, Brown was the obvious next target. Anything to get direct criticism off the president himself.

quote:

---

When time is of the essence, and lives are on the line, one doesn't replace the head of an organization supposed to be supplying help UNLESS that head is doing nothing (or harm).

---

I agree.

Although one has a plethora of initial information which indicates he may in fact have been causing more harm than good. We'll have to see where the red tape ended and where his incompetence began. Who knows at this point.

I do not think his demotion will cause any ill-effects. His replacment was already overseeing New Orleans relief and rescue efforts, not to mention has more experience in such matters, so I think any disruption to the most important issue right now, that of saving lives, will be minimal.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

quote:

---

Well when the guy in charge says it was 3 days before he knew the convention center and football stadium were being used to house people what can I say. I can't believe he's not sitting in front of a wall of TV sets monitoring every channel while at the same time listening to those around him.

---

I once said what I'm going to say, awhile back as the Iraq War II was going - that about Filters, and Intelligence. When the President says he wants information concerning certain things as a priority, filters get put in place, whether he is aware of it or not (and if someone is in the position of President, he better damn well know that his orders have consequences!).

This means that organizations put such filters into place, as well.

Now, I'm not sure in the case of FEMA, but I can imagine that the big "T" word was the primary threat and concern at the time, and everything else was secondary, if at all worthy of attention.

I also don't know, WHERE the filters got implimented in the chain of command - was it operators, who had explicit orders to only pass on terrorist-type stuff? Was it higher up, analysts? Or even higher up?

I don't know. I also don't know how much Brown knew, or didn't know, before those three days were done. Although I find it incredibly hard to believe, that any human being can just stand still, and not do his job when lives are on the line, I have witnessed such once - even though it didn't last for three days. We had a computer glitch once - it sent false data, directly to Cheyenne Mountain. Anyone who has been in the military knows what Cheyenne Mountain is. This false data showed a large number of missles being launched from the Soviet Union, and heading for the US. The General on watch had 30 minutes to react. He suffered a nervous break-down, and had to be removed from duty. To make a long story short, this probably saved us from graver consequences.

If he was informed, I'm wondering what type of orders he was under, and following, and where they came from. If he wasn't informed, then one can begin to see how the "filters", set through the decisions of one man in power, can effectively kill thousands, if not many, many more.

This is a critical question for me - and one I am investigating.

I can tell you this - during my work, I got exposed to a lot of...stuff. Some of it I filtered out, according to my "filter" orders - and some of it got passed on.

Ok, not to sidetrack anything, but getting back to the family for a second . . .

What is the name of that hurricane? (link is qt video)

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Ho.....ly fuck! lol

Someone should put Taj Mahal's version of Corina behind her.
Poor dear woman..and she tries so hard.

lol.... they're mutants... they're all mutants...

lol as he fades away

Pretty obvious Brown's Bush didn't know what the hell was going on either.

Mebbe she too was worried 'they' would all stay in Texass.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

I have a hard time nailing down who's at fault in all this. I've heard mixed stories of feds not reacting quickly vs the feds having requested permission or told the state government things that were ignored. FEMA was certainly operating under a skewed reality in any case.

Something that does bother me though, does anyone else see the mayor of NO to have totally deflected any blame in all this? I understand that he would need help and support with a number of things, but if I was the mayor of a city built in a bowl surrounded by several bodies of water in a hurricane-prone area, you better believe i'd have a plan.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

They did have a plan, their Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan for Hurricanes is available on the city's website. It's a lot of really dry reading, ( I spent last night reading both their general and comprehensive emergency plans :P) but ultimately rather informative. I'll post a few exerpts on what I felt were pertinent highlights. In several places, they refer to "Hurricane Emergency Evacuation Standard Operating Procedure " of which I have not yet been able to locate... as I understand this outlines the detail of the processes involved.

Under Part 2: Evacuation
Concept of Operations

quote:

---

...The Hurricane Emergency Evacuation Standard Operating Procedure is designed to deal with all case scenarios of an evacuation in response to the approach of a major hurricane towards New Orleans. It is designed to deal with the anticipation of a direct hit from a major hurricane. This includes identifying the city's present population, its projected population, identification of at-risk populations (those living outside levee protection or in storm-surge areas, floodplains, mobile homes, etc.)...

---

quote:

---

The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas...Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance

---

Under Hurricane Evacuation Procedures:

quote:

---

...the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating...

---

Under Tasks:

This is an abbreviated list...

quote:

---

A. Mayor

* Initiate the evacuation.

* Retain overall control of all evacuation procedures via EOC operations.

* Authorize return to evacuated areas.

D. Regional Transit Authority

* Supply transportation as needed in accordance with the current Standard Operating Procedures.

* Place special vehicles on alert to be utilized if needed.

* Position supervisors and dispatch evacuation buses.

* If warranted by scope of evacuation, implement additional service.

---

As an FYI here is FEMA's outlined process for disaster declaration and assistance from their website.

And, if you are curious to the timeline of warning the City of New Orleans had - here is a link to the National Hurricane Center's Advisory Graphics Archive and the Saffir-Simpson Scale
[edit]typos[/edit]

(Edited by Moon Dancer on 09-10-2005 17:58)

Well straight up, the people of New Orleans just didn't have enough time to evac. To completely evac. New Orleans, they needed two-four days. They had the minimum, two days of warning. This is nobody's fault. I believe the reason it took our National Gaurd so long to enter New Orleans is because the majority of them were on leave for a holiday. You can't call that many people and say "Drop what you're doing and leave now". It can't happen in 24hrs. They did their best. Yes, improvment is needed. I don't think anyone should hang for this however.

When Barbara Bush said the following:

quote:

---

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway - so this is working very well for them."

---

She was speaking the truth. She wasn't being racist. She wasn't knocking anyone down. She was speaking the truth.

-----------------------------------------------

What appalling ignorance.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Hmmmm... 'speaking the truth you say'.... well yes on a couple of fronts.

Underprivileged yes and I agree she was not being racist but she also truthfuly reveals how she views the underprivileged when she says... '... you know..were underpriviliged anyway - so this is working very well for them.'

As soon as you add 'anyway' the meaning changes to 'so it doesn't really matter'.... and 'so this is working very well for them' ...becomes

'...they're never known much better so they're really pretty well off all things considered.'


It is after all... the 'thought' that counts and I'm sure she 'meant well.'

I can only stress the two last posts.
Black Hat: So she was speaking the truth. Hell yeah, the people in the arena were underprivileged so why bother or showing them respect tssk

They say hind sight is 20-20. When she said what she said, I don't think she meant to offend anyone. Why must you always pick apart what they say? I am sure all of you have said something and meant it one way but others have taken it completely differently. This is no different.

-----------------------------------------------

She may not have meant to offend anyone, but that is not the point is it?

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Black Hat: Sure, but we are no public figures and we don't have PR aids.

Ok MD, soo...they had a plan that didn't work? I've read that there were drills earlier in the year that failed miserably...so what was done to fix that?

as far as evacuation, i'm guessing you haven't been thru this before...i have, several times. You leave WELL before a mandatory evacuation is ever called for, you don't wait until you're forced to leave. I understand that a lot of people weren't able to get out, but the idea of only having a few days to evacuate following a mandatory evacuation is not a unique situation.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

(Edited by Fig on 09-11-2005 02:34)

Of course she didn't mean to offend anyone, that is what ingrained racism is all about.

It is the total insensitivity of the statement which reveals the depth of ignorance and rascism.

She is incapable of understanding just how ignorant and insensitive she is.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

the

quote:

---

Black Hat said:

She was speaking the truth. She wasn't being racist. She wasn't knocking anyone down. She was speaking the truth.

---

The TRUTH?

Having their homes, and everything they ever had destroyed, having their wives, husbands, children, parents, killed or lost, being without basic necessities, waiting for help to arrive...then finally being bussed to a stadium where they can finally get some food and water...that is "working very well for them"?

They were poor, so they don't know the difference? Or....they were poor, so they should be happy for a handout?

Can you please specify exactly what about this ingorant wretch's statement was "truth"?

Well said DL.

quote:

---

Deo: It is the total insensitivity of the statement which reveals the depth of ignorance and rascism.

---

Ignorance and insensitivity? Definately. Racism? Perhaps ingrained, unintentional, I don't know for sure. No position I guess.

I actually think it has more to do with class than with race and that was my first thought when I heard it.

I didn't hear her talking to people who were black, but to people. People who were devastated and yes, poor. Skin color made no difference to my contempt for her statement. They could have been white, asian, hispanic, whatever, they were still people who had just been through a hellish experience and should not have been disrespected by being told things were "working out very well for them".

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

(Edited by Ramasax on 09-11-2005 07:10)

Ya.... I took her remarks as being more of a 'class' thing because her definition of 'underprivileged' includes I am sure...white trash.' =)

As the majority of the victims are non-white it seemed rascist to me. That it is also class snobbery, I have no doubt.

One has never seen anything from any member of the Bush family which might be construed as being sensitive or understanding.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

quote:

---

One has never seen anything from any member of the Bush family which might be construed as being sensitive or understanding.

---

I think they are sensitive and understanding about their dog...I think.

Just wondering what you guys make of this video of a forced evacuation....

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Fig -
You said if you were mayor of such a city, you would have a plan. I simply showed that they did. It appears that the plan they had in place did not work. Whether or not it was due to revisions not being made after drill failures or simply that the plan itself was ignored remains to be seen. My biggest question out of the whole thing is why the Regional Transit Authority did not or was not allowed to implement their primary task of providing transportation.

No, I have never had the experience of being in a mandatory evacuation situation. However, I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that was relevant to what I posted. I never stated that New Orleans mandatory evacuation was a unique situation. The points I focused on were in relation to the plan accounting for adequate time to get the population out. I pointed to the National Hurricane Center to show that it was evident there was adequate warning time to get that population out. I was posting the things I did with as little of my own personal opinion as possible to point others to references I found helpful.

As far as I can see there was no reason for those people to have been left behind. The greatest travesty of the entire aftermath of the Katrina was that it all could have been avoided. Rather than focusing resources into search and rescue and corpse recovery, efforts could have been immediately focused on reclaiming the city. This isn't a case of hindsight being 20/20 - it's a big, fat "I told you so." All levels of government knew that a scenario such as this was only a matter of time. It's like "the Big One" for San Francisco or Los Angeles - it wasn't a question of "if" but "when".

Ok, here it is Tuesday, September 20th, 2005, and the time is 13:00 E.S.T.

Hurricane Rita, is heading your way. Expected to become a category 3 hurricane before it hits land.

Projected landfall between Northern Mexico, to Louisiana, although more likely a direct hit on Galveston, TX.

You live within this projected path.

What do you do?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" The world today is such a wicked thing "

(Edited by Zynx on 09-20-2005 19:26)