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NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 09-15-2005 03:54

First... someone with better searching skills will have to dig this one out... I've been trying but without success.

I've just been listening to american talkshow host Dennis Prager who's been quoting either an article or editorial in the British newspaper The Guardian... so that's where I've been searching.

The author is a lawyer. Prager read parts of the article but the bottom line was/is that when it comes to things like helping with disasters and such... Katrina and so on... it's the various religious groups/organizations that do the most good... where as the aetheist groups/organizations don't do much... if anything.

Anyway... I thought it would be a good 'jaw'... but somebody's got to find and post it before we get at it. So nothing till then please.
I'm back to searching.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 09-15-2005 04:07

NJ: What day was it? I get the paper version so if I've not recycled it yet....

Its worth noting that when they reproduce articles from other places they often don't have them available online for copyright reasons.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Revenant: The Zombie Magazine | Wonders | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 09-15-2005 04:31

Hey there Emps =)

I don't know what day... sorry to say but it can't be terribly old as Prager's not the type to sit on anything for more than a few seconds if he thinks he can get a rise out of someone... anyone. =)

And hey... while you're going thru your recycle bin who knows you may find that old dress you've been looking for... =)

thnx =)

Ramasax
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 09-15-2005 06:25

Here ya go: Faith does breed charity

Found it on Google News using keywords: "religious atheists katrina donations"

Interesting article.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-15-2005 15:55

I listen to Dennis Prager regularly as he hails from SoCal and is on a local station here.

He was talking about this on yesterday's show. He made a very interesting point that religious people who do good usually do so because of their religion whereas atheists who do good rarely do so because of their atheism.

He made it very clear that there are atheists and theists who do good things. He also pointed out that when he referred to the religious who followed "good" religions, that is religions that advocate good behavior.

From the Guardian article:

quote:
The correlation is so clear that it is impossible to doubt that faith and charity go hand in hand.

So it occurs to me that some of the religious will sit back on this and feel great about themselves and some atheists will immediately get images of the Spanish Inquisition. Both are often unwilling to recognize that both of the following are true, good religion spurs adherents to good works and it can be abused by others to do great evil. I've got a book on my list that I've only scanned called "When Religion Becomes Evil" by Charles Kimball. It is an important read for the religious to help guard against those abuses and recognize the warning signs.

NoJive, do you get Prager on a radio station up there or do you listen via internet?

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 09-15-2005 20:04)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-15-2005 18:32
quote:

Bugimus said:

He made a very interesting point that religious people who do good usually do so because of their religion whereas atheists who do good rarely do so because of their atheism.



I agree with that statement, but it is a rather odd statement.

Of *course* an atheist wouldn't commit such acts because of 'their atheism'.
Of course, as we've talked about before, all this really means is that a great deal of people do these things simply because they feel they are being watched, and if that pressure were removed, in many cases they would not.

And I would definitely agree that, by and large, the point made in this article is fairly accurate. It is, obviously, one of the tenents of christianity to behave in such a manner, and regardless of reason, such action is to be appluaded.

I have always held this side of things in mind when discussing the evils of the religion. =)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-16-2005 21:52
quote:

DL-44 said:

I have always held this side of things in mind when discussing the evils of the
religion. =)


Yes, it has not escaped my notice and appreciation.

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Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 09-20-2005 22:58

DL, why do you think that "people" only do good things because they think someone is watching them?

I thought the article was quite accurate, but I agree with Bugs, I know personally some non-religious people who do good deeds, and some religious people who do not do good deeds. It kinda links to the General Revelation that I have been discussing in Bible Study. A few passages make it seem plausible to me.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-21-2005 04:19
quote:

Gideon said:

DL, why do you think that "people" only do good things because they think someone is watching them?


This is a very well documented pattern of behavior established by "people" in many circumstances, on many levels.

It is also a very basic and obvious fact that christians beleive they are supposed to do such things, and that their eternal soul may rest on their behavior. This is just one more way in which our acts are shown to be selfish, even if the outcome of the act is beneficial to others (as we've discussed before here).

Are you suggesting that this does *not* influence the way people behave?

Diogenes
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 09-21-2005 21:34

The vatican has chosen to lead they way to good xian practices, by example;

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/21/national/21vatican.html?ex=1127966400&en=978cec5ab4a14896&ei=5070&emc=eta1

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Diogenes
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 09-21-2005 23:40

Got another one; http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050921/ca_pr_on_na/france_cda_church_abuse

It is simply apalling...here the church knew this guy was a predator and yet they secretly transferrd him to fresh hunting grounds.

The suit agains the Pope should be allowed to proceed.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-21-2005 23:56

Yes, these are the issues that everyone here is aware of.

Doesn't change the truth behind the posted article, and I don't see how these links are relevant to the conversation. Obviously, there is evil in religion. Point here is that there is also good, and in many circumstances the good done by christian groups *does* outweigh that done by non christian groups.

Diogenes
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 09-22-2005 05:23

Hmm,I felt, in my twisted view, it related as to how xians are better than the religious.

But, I must disagree that everyone here is aware of of the problem.

I suggest there are several here who are not at all aware of it and when somone manages to impinge it upon their consciousness (sic), they deny it.

For those reasons, I considered it relevant.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-22-2005 05:44

ok...whatever. thought maybe we could have a thread that *didn't* have to focus on this issue. silly me - we'll stick to just the negative things I guess

Diogenes
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 09-22-2005 06:36

Well, I think it is positive that some of the bastards are getting caught and convicted.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-22-2005 06:49
quote:
Point here is that there is also good, and in many circumstances the good done by christian groups *does* outweigh that done by non christian groups.



Good point.

And Dio, I don't see any relevancy in those posts of yours to the thread title and subject matter.

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-22-2005 06:53)

briggl
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: New England
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 09-22-2005 14:32
quote:
Diogenes said:

...it related as to how xians are better than the religious


Huh???

I thought the Christians were religious???


Diogenes
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Right behind you.
Insane since: May 2005

posted posted 09-22-2005 16:05

OK Briggl, I made an error. Mea culpa.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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