Isn't it that the divergence has already happened and we want to now prevent a divergence or "seal up" the current divergence?
Also since time has already elapsed since John Titor was here and back again, even if we were to prevent or alter the current divergence we'd never get it back to 0% divergence. Isn't the best we could hope for to be a 0.009% divergence? And if there is still a fraction of a fraction, aren't we still lacking free will?
And just because my alter-ego is F1_evil, isn't it possible that SpaceFold is giving us misinformation, in order to keep playing at puppet master? Could this possibly explain the complete lack of information he's been giving us?
In a worst case senario isn't it just a little possible that if close this divergence, that we could end up preventing Utopia? Say if we follow SpaceFold Timeline until 3039 and in that timeline the world is in perfect (or near perfect) balance, a "Utopia". What would happen to that Utopia if we were to close the divergence, and change SpaceFolds timeline?
From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods Insane since: Jan 2005
posted 02-19-2006 04:52
quote: Zyprexa said:
Autonomous time lines and freewill: How to cause a divergence.Get out as much information out of the time travelers and don?t do those events thus causing a divergence.Do events on our time line that they never have done ie) Research and development. Beat them to the punch line.Nuclear war with another country would probably cause a divergence if some sort. But that?s the easy way out.Ask help from the Feds. And then they would probably lock the bunch of us up.Figure out how to regain freewill is a very hard proposition. I wish I new the answer but doing it on mass is impossible. How do you convince a zombie new trick if they don?t know the problem exists!!!Free will is a major underpinning to this message. If you don?t use it someone else or timeline will enforce there will over you and thus we are puppets. But our consumer based society will not let use think any other way. And thus our huge trade deficit with the rest of the world. Resulting in a huge number of events will occur. The collective unconscious is starving for new ideas but will we embrace them and steer us away from the 2039 time line.But free will for zombies and puppets may be a dangerous thing; who knows what will happen, sounds scary. It is up to the collective unconscious to figure these things out and not us.The only good thing I can say is the time traveler just being here will cause this divergence, which is a good thing. The good old feedback loop trick with data to feed off of so we can do correction in path we wish to follow.
I tell ya... ITS THE MATRIX...Its C0nspereicy..AAAAAAAA
quote: F1_error said:
quote:
Zyprexa said:How to cause a divergence.
Isn't it that the divergence has already happened and we want to now prevent a divergence or "seal up" the current divergence? Also since time has already elapsed since John Titor was here and back again, even if we were to prevent or alter the current divergence we'd never get it back to 0% divergence. Isn't the best we could hope for to be a 0.009% divergence? And if there is still a fraction of a fraction, aren't we still lacking free will? And just because my alter-ego is F1_evil, isn't it possible that SpaceFold is giving us misinformation, in order to keep playing at puppet master? Could this possibly explain the complete lack of information he's been giving us? In a worst case senario isn't it just a little possible that if close this divergence, that we could end up preventing Utopia? Say if we follow SpaceFold Timeline until 3039 and in that timeline the world is in perfect (or near perfect) balance, a "Utopia". What would happen to that Utopia if we were to close the divergence, and change SpaceFolds timeline?Just some Saturday night (for me) thoughts.
This is true...
Edit: Now that I think of it Wouldn't it TAKE freewill to change something...to GAIN freewill...and in that case...How in-the-Hay does that work
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There Is A Fine Line Between Genius and Insanity... I Have Erased this line
All I need from Space Fold is the current divergence %. In 1975 the divergence was 2%. After he gives the value we will know whether it has increased or decreased over time. It will also give us a degree of accuracy to whether Space Fold predictions will come true or not. Thus giving us the divergence will give him credibility whether his perditions are right or not; it?s a total win-win proposition. He has till April 15th to come up with the data. Thus there is not a lot of time left. Better sooner than later. If anyone out there is a remote viewer he/she probably can give us the value like 2.5%. It is really not that hard. The problem is when we get the value what effect will it have on the predictions and to what extent. A small change in % may have great changes in prediction outcomes.
We've done the remote-viewing bit before, you don't need to buy a $300 kit. You just need to become very intimate with your local library. There is lots of information avaiable going as far back as the '40s, and that is only the info I know of. Plus you can add in the fact that in 1996 the CIA declassified the 30+ years of remote-viewing information they had. (Don't ask how I know this, it's a long, long story.)
I also don't think you'd want to use remote viewing to determine the divergence. Remote viewing is like looking into the future through a pin-hole. You can see "something" but without proper context, it's useless. So if you were to remote-view for something like our divergence, it's possible your answer could be off. Being off in this case wouldn't give you a good base for figuring the divergence. You could be off +/-0.05% or more. The remote-view might give you a number, but you would have no idea if it's a positive or a negative number.
SpaceFold has a little less then 60 days to give us the information we need, but I don't think he'll come right out and tell us. He's been very unwilling to do his "mission" and give us information. Me thinks he's partaking of our time "evil ways" before he returns to the dying future. (I now believe that SpaceFolds future is dying, since sex is dangerous and childbirth is detrimental.)
So the good thing is we can get the values. But I don?t think it will go back to 1975?
Yeah we can get the values, but it's going to take a little more education than I have to read the data plots. Although they are rather psychedelic looking...
Just some random graphs taken from 2004, edited for size.
It's unfortunate that none of those three sites is kind enough to place a link saying "Temporal Divergence is That-a-way --->" For me at least without something that obvious, I'm just not going to be able to weed out the signal to noise information needed to figure out our divergence.
And you were right, the data models only go back as far as 1993. But keep going, your making for some heady stuff. And at least you post more than SpaceFold (the lazy bastard).
I thought to get a temporal divergence is we get our value and then get his value from his time line turn it into a percentage and that it. % = (ours - his) / ours. The data at the web site is known as AMF Radioactive Divergence. Our value is about 200000. So the calculation should look something like this.
% = (ours - his) / ours => 2.0% = (200000-196000)/200000 => 2%. Thus 2039 time line the AMF Radioactive divergence will be different thus we need his value to calculate the % divergence between the two world lines.
Somehow that math just doesn't seem right to me. Your following things in too linear of a pattern. Plus the fact that I think we'd need to include the beginning of the "event" to get an accurate or a precise grade of divergence. (And to be honest, the divergence could have begun long before John Titor or 1975.) And to make things even more complicated, you can't forget we are dealing in 4 dimensions, not 3, which your equation uses. Even more there are the "unknown" variables that have to be included in any equation dealing with time.
A good way to get a handle on the fourth dimension math is to read The Fourth Dimension: Toward a Geometry of Higher Reality by Rudy Rucker. Rudy uses 2d vs. 3d (along with the famous Flatland) to explain the fourth dimension. Very eye opening stuff. You should also look into M-Theory, which is either and off-shoot of String Theory or a portion of String Theory depending on whom you ask. M-Theory talks about the strings, super strings, waves, dimensions (11 at last count), and other little puzzles to show how everything works together. M-Theory stands for Mother, as in the Mother of All Theories, which is somehow bigger than the Grand Unification Theory, which is what String Theory was/is supposed to do.
Thus our equation might have to look something like (but not exactly);
([random variable from far past]+[divergence time from Titor and/or 1975]/[Current Divergence]) ([SpaceFolds Divergence set in time]*[total time elapsed from either now or beginning of divergence]) [Then figure out what nasty little variable is going to come from time itself] [Allow for extra variables, (ie. future freewill acting upon 2006 puppets, other time travels, meta events, etc and so on..)] Plus other things I'm not fully aware of.
Once you have that, then you need to create and equation based on the information you have to extract the % of divergence. But that percentage is only going to be good for a brief time, and at the same time, it will be stuck in time.
The problem with the calculation, which I think is no big deal is the divergence value for Space Fold, is from 2039 just before he left and not 2006 in his time line, which he will never get to for eternity and beyond. The only way we can hope to get an accurate measurement is to look over the data over the years to see if the data is flat and stable. We may be able to extrapolate the date or some curve fitting equation solution. But if it is not constant over the years we then have no idea what the true value of his year 2006 on his world line. And that is where we will fall on our face.
Well, those data plots are way beyond me, and they don't offer any beginners language to help things along. So I guess it's up to you to find out if the data plots are stable enough to make a guess. Who knows, maybe if you go through all that information, plots, and graphs, you'll find instances of other time travellers.
If there is a range in the time plots that are greater then 2% then that will prove there are other time lines in existence. All I have for our divergence from various stations is 20000, which is of our time line. But you will have to look at the plot to see if there are other time lines in existence. One simple way of doing this is to find the max and the min and if it is greater than 2% then we will know that there are other time lines like John Titor since he stated the value of 2% to make an unique time line. There should be like valence level if other timelines exist. Here a link to the raw data. Total data graphs
Look like a bell curve and lot of space for other timelines. Looking at the data there are no valence level o well we tried but there is a lot of room for other time lines in the graphs.
AMF RAdiative Divergence using AMF, GERB and AMMA Stations where Space Fold ideas. It is up to him to explain how to extract the data from the graphs. I don?t know how to interpreter the data to find other time line if possible. Space Fold will have to step up to the plate and explain everything dealing with these charts since he had to use them to get here in the first place. If I do it, it will all guess work.
SpaceFold hasn't been exactly forthcoming with information, nor has been spending time here answering questions. He's probably too busy gorging himself on MickeyD's too pay any attention to us evil 2006'ers. Or maybe he's just at the wrong Asylum.
Personally I thought we had been making some headway into the theory behind things. But when it came to actual, accurate problem solving, I at least came up a little short. On the plus side, according to SpaceFold there is already "Cramer of UW" toying around with things, and there is "serious funding and research (GRANTED BY EXCENTRIC MILLIONAIRES) of time travel." So we are not alone in playing with plausibles.
First, the image posted by Titor is without doubt fake.
Just to not get any replies asking why, here are a few things to consider.
* Where's the smoke from the cigar?
* How do you make laser light appear continuous when smoke isn't dense enough. Try it yourselves...
* The beam is too long. There's no way you'd be able to see it all the way from the "pen" out through the window, all in one shot.
* The "pen" isn't aligned with the beam.
* The beam is too thick, looks like fiber optics or one of those "running lights" or "rope lights".
* Nothing else in the picture is distorted by the enormous gravity field.
* The radius of the beam is extremely large. Do the math and you'd find out how much gravitational force would be required to bend it like that.
* The picture itself exists, nothing could survive a gravitational field that large, be it the year 2036 or 2000036.
* The "centre" of the beam curve is located too close to the car.
* Magnify the picture a bit and you'll notice that the beam looks "jagged", pulling light in different directions over the distance of a few centimetres would be a cool party trick!
* There's no reflections from the laser light.
Second, I'm not going to list everything wrong with all the textmaterial since I recently got home from work (10am here) and I'm quite tired, but I'll atleast dump some of my opinions on you guys.
* There's never been a single word concerning hard evidence of someone being from the future in any of the texts.
* All the technical information/statements are vague or impossible to because since they are built on theories that denies proof of themself being true.
* Neither of these time-travelers seem able to answer questions that could be used against them as proof of them either being fake or real. The questions are either ignored or given the standard "I'm not authorized..." speech.
* None of the "predictions" have yet to come true, most of them are actually supposed to take place after the time-traveler leaves. That means the "prophets" can not be confronted afterwards.
* This sounds alot like Nostradamus, was he a time-traveler too?
* Why only stay 3 months? If you can travel through time, there should be no need to rush.
* Why bother going through time if you can't change your own timeworld/line, but only create new ones all the time :P
* Two time-travelers but zero tv-shows? Why use the 'net when even more people have TV/Radio? You want to entertain, isn't that what you said? Opera or Jay Leno would be thrilled to have a real time-traveler on the show!
Anyway, g'nite folks! er.. I mean g'morning... whatever...
Btw, why doesn't someone simply log the time-traveler's IP and compare it to all the other posters. Maybe even track down the ISP and then the poster himself?
TwoD yer a party pooper. Com'on play along, this is the Asylum.
quote: TwoD said:
First, the image posted by Titor is without doubt fake.
I'm not even going to go into the issues behind vaildating photos on the internet, because that in itself is just so reliable.
quote: TwoD said:
Btw, why doesn't someone simply log the time-traveler's IP and compare it to all the other posters. Maybe even track down the ISP and then the poster himself?
It's been done, trust me on this...
As far as the TV/Radio thing, when Titor was here, he did so a few radio interviews, as well as lots of interent postings.
As I've said before, I believe in time travel, I'm just not convinced that SpaceFold is our current Time Traveler. Spacey just isn't participating enough, at least Titor was willing to "hold up" his end of the conversation. Spacey can't see to get a firm grasp on his keyboard.
F1: I know the issues, but that image is too easy to shoot holes through to even be funny...
I believe in time travel too, just not that it's so easy you can simply skip back and forth between different timelines with a single machine in a single timeline.
How did he move the time machine itself throuh time? If he somehow managed this, or if there's more than one, how does he keep it from being detected, especially when used?
Yeah, I know this is the Asulum, and I'm mad enough to even bother!
I'd like to yell at this Time Traveler for not simply taking someone with him back to the(ir) future to prove it exists! But as you said, he doesn't seem to be able to hold on to his keyboard...
I thought this was funny throughout the first thread pages, then it got boring because Spacey doesn't deliver anything useful...
About changing the timeline to make events happen earlier/later than it should.
Ever watched the Star Trek movies? Scotty reveals the "secret" about transparent aluminium with the excuse "How do we know he didn't invent the thing?", when the Doc asks if they would alter the future.
My point is, there's no such thing as "should have happened but didn't" (or the other way around), that would mean there is such a thing as destiny (which is what should have happened). If destiny exists, you would not be able to change anything from what it's supposed to be (which would be what actually (didn't) happened) because that would void destiny.
And if you'd still succeed, it would be because it would be your destiny to succeed, hence that was supposed to happen. So the whole thing contradicts itself like any other paradox.
If you explain this by creating a new timeline for each event's happening/not happeining, there's still no such thing as "that exact thing should have happened because it's the 'correct way'". Every outcome would be "correct", so it wouldn't matter if anything was chaned at all!
So, in my opinion, with what we know and what has been said by Titor and Spacey, Time Travel doesn't change a thing.
Yuck, now I've typed myself into a big mess. Don't remember where I started out, lost my thoughts during the time it took to write this weird thing.
!!DISCLAIMER!! The poster, by posting the message of which disclaimer is a part, intends to do no harm to the past, the present, the future or alternate versions of the previously mentioned timelines. Nor does it intend to do somethin good for that would be equally harmful. He (as in the poster, in this timeline, in this present going on to this future with the past in which this post was actually written) simply intends to let time pass in a timely manner without disturbing the overall peace of the universe(s) in the [to the poster] correct timeline. He (the poster) can under no circumstances or in other pasts, presents or future timelines take no reponsibility of what other versions of this post might or might not state. In the event of this post in this timeline etc, would inflict damage to, or otherwise manipulate, the state of the universe or any timeline whatsoever: the timeline in which this post was never written, (because the poster lost his mind shortly before not posting and thereby being no poster, thus not causing damage to the [in this timeline] damaged timeline) should be considered the correct one. Thereby the poster can by no means be held responsible for anything that is or isn't happening, will or won't happen as well as has or hasn't happened.
DOC! I'm out of meds and this constraint jacket isn't tight enough!
Space Fold can?t get back to his old 2006 timeline since it is the past time, dead and burnt into the history book and not active. Thus this is why he pops into our time since the timeline has no logical choice but to put him here into our collective 2006(now), which is alive and active with life. And that why Space Fold can?t get back to his old time only ours since it is dead done and finished and non-manifestable. His old timeline is fixed but he is changing so he can?t fit in since there is no drama in which he can fit into thus he is pushed into our time line, which is the next closest thing to it. So all I am saying you can rationalize time travel and don?t need temporal mechanic to explain time travel. But I think you need another dimension other than time to make everything work out. Sorry for the repetition just trying to make a point.
Do you agree to these statements?Space Fold can?t get back to... [whole lotta words, blah, blah, blah, too much too quote all at once.] ...just trying to make a point.
And thus this is where the divergence comes from, and what we are trying to best guesstimate at. Of course it would really help if SpaceFold were to actually take part in out efforts, who knows, it might acutally help him out
2039 is a dying time line if they can?t have children successfully. All the Gray aliens talked about on Coast To Coast don?t have sex or children. It?s a sign of a dying race. Just like the Grays are abducting us to revive a dying race of their own if not ours of 2039. It sounds really bad for ours and there?s future. In 2039 are we a dying race. If you don?t use it like in there time line you loose it. Resulting in non-functioning births. And now the 2039 people are here stealing from the past to fix thing its really does not sound good.
Ok, bringing the Grey's into this is just a little "out there". But I get the point, since it's a point I've been alluding to as well.
The whole childbirth/sex = bad is something I've been hoping SpaceFold would address. 2039 doesn't seem like that happy of a time. Of course in 2039 I'll be of retirement age, with luck I'll be thinking of fishing and not resurrecting the human race.
When we understand how wide the AMF Radiative Divergence works. We then can figure out how many world lines can fit within the AMF Radiative Divergence if we assume 2% divergence between world line. We have all the data only Space Fold has to step up to the plate and explain everything. There could be like a total 69 world lines possible if Space Fold get reacquainted to his keyboard.
Spacey has been absent for a very long time now. We might be on our own to try and figure this divergence thingy out. Got any ideas for assuming how we could do that?
The voices in your head are just you, they have nothing to do with termites. Do what I do, and keep turning the radio up until you can't hear them any more. Unless they are named Alan, and telling you to start fires.
From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods Insane since: Jan 2005
posted 02-24-2006 06:09
Who said anything about voices...
I did...
See I told You...
Im Hungry...
I know that...
OMG LOOK WOOD....
OMG LIKE WHERE....
OMG LIKE THERE....
O I SEE IT!!!.... ( Scampers off)
------------After Finishing and Having Double the Daily Dose of Fiber-------
Aaaa... Mulch better...
Now than... Spacefold in your time... What are the New Inventions... Or BETTER YET... Just Give the Names of the objects ( Example: a Car called Echo )
-----------___________---------__________------
"There is no surer sign of insanity than trying the same thing repeatedly expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein
delta = 12-11.74 = 0.24 For a 2% divergence from 12 if that is where we exist assumption.
delta = 0.24 for 2%
From this we will assume all other time lines 0.24 between other timelines. Therefore
From the graph I choose a viable range from the peak of 10-14 UTC
Thus
4/(0.24) = 17 time lines
From the graph I choose a wider viable range from 9-15 UTC
Thus
6/(0.24) = 25 Lines
And for 7-17 range UTC
10/0.24 = 41 time line
So all of this if we choose 2% divergence at the peek of the graph. But, if we were not at the top of the graph we would get different results. In my opinion we have no less than 25 time line on our planet.
To make thing clear time line are multiple vertical lines on the graph along the UTC axis changing by 0.24 delta.
Sorry for not being here for a while I went to Toronto.
From: 2 steps away from a los angeles curb Insane since: Nov 2003
posted 02-25-2006 20:46
Anyone thinking Zyp is Space?
...and, full of shit?
I mean he comes in as we start to hardball spacedork as a new member and posts prolificalally[sp?] in just this thread...
Something stinks in Denmark, and I'm thinking it's not the cheese.
We can know all the divergent time lines ever and without having a way to transverse them... it means nothing.
Perhaps we are living in an infinite array of possibilities and each choice makes a new thread of possibilities. That kind of infinite possible time lines just makes time travel infinitely improbable or inconsequential. Once a time traveller comes back a new set of infinite time lines are created and although his future will always be the same, our divergence will never coincide with his.
The reality may be a multiverse of possibilities and we each co-exist virtually in infinite time lines. So yeah, anything is possible but what really counts is where we are now. The Asylum writing about blurry tv screen like graphs?
Ok, so if I'm following your math, there are a possible 41 seperate time-lines. So if we plug that into M-Theory, with it's 11 dimensions, that leaves us with the possibility of 451 scenarios. (Or if we follow the 25 time-lines, 275 scenarios.)
But the divergence cannot be a constant, since the only "true" constant is entropy. So as the divergence alters, so does the possible time-lines / scenarios. And this is not taking in account the possibility that the divergence could be greater or lesser in other time-lines, further mucking things up.
However this is still a moot point at best, because we still need to know SpaceFolds divergence from 2039, do we not?
The 2% divergence account for two values results in that percentage. I had to guess our value as the optimal value of 12 on the graph. The problem figuring out Space Folds is whether it was +2% or ?2% relative to us. But this did not matter to me since all I wanted to figure out the number of time line in existence, which relate back to the 2%. You need the background radiation for existence to thrive this is my theory. All I require from Space Fold is our value or his value the 2% divergence will resolve the rest. But what is interesting is number of probable realities that exist in parallel to ours. Whether is to totally difference or just out of sink time wise. I am not that familiar with M-Theory I will have to look it up later.
DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Cardiff By The Sea, California Insane since: Mar 1994
posted 02-26-2006 09:04
quote: 10 days ago, SpaceFold said:
Excellent questions!Yes there are still recreational drugs in 2039.
And there is stil drug abuse. However, people use them in very different ways
than you are used to. Abso(r)btion is the preffered method of addicts in 2039.
What happened to our time traveller? I hate it when that happens, I lose stuff all the time! This thread has gotten quite interesting, yet no mention of anything important from our little SF. No pills for you!
A timely diversion perhaps, whilst wondering if our SF will appear in our lifetimes?
A programme starting to-night on BBC4 called Time Really interesting stuff like how we percieve time differently the older we are.
There are links to a number of tests there, two of which I have tried but the test just seemed to end with no conclusion. I see realPlayer is required for some too.
Still, all good stuff.
I thought to get a temporal divergence is we get our value and then get his value from his time line turn it into a percentage and that it. % = (ours - his) / ours. The data at the web site is known as AMF Radioactive Divergence. Our value is about 200000. So the calculation should look something like this.% = (ours - his) / ours => 2.0% = (200000-196000)/200000 => 2%. Thus 2039 time line the AMF Radioactive divergence will be different thus we need his value to calculate the % divergence between the two world lines.
This calulation is wrong. I didn't know at the time we have graphs.
Then again it may be right. It is really how you wish to interpret the 2%
We need Space Fold to step up to the plate. Is the 2% in the X or Y-axis?
Basically the reason why there are changes in the divergence is that you move up and down the curve.
Another topic: Did space fold say whether the US will have 2 currencies, one domestic and the other international. The colored currency is for home use, the old stuff international.
Oh boy getting into axis stuff now.
If we are talking about space-time, wouldn't the axis be x-y-z, time is not a two-dimensional product, and an x-y axis is. (Actually time is a fourth dimensional product, but I'm not sure how to express that in axis form.)
From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods Insane since: Jan 2005
posted 02-27-2006 13:27
quote: F1_error said:
Oh boy getting into axis stuff now. If we are talking about space-time, wouldn't the axis be x-y-z, time is not a two-dimensional product, and an x-y axis is. (Actually time is a fourth dimensional product, but I'm not sure how to express that in axis form.)
w-x-y-z
Maybe?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There Is A Fine Line Between Genius and Insanity... I Have Erased this line
posted 02-19-2006 02:52
My Brain Itches...
I did...
