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Zynx
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Outside Looking In
Insane since: Aug 2005

posted posted 02-08-2006 01:02

Myself not being religious, but one who trys to follow the goodness within all religions, I can not understand such violent reactions the Muslim community has displayed. No matter what joke, or cartoon, or someone verbally attacking the things I love, and have respect for, I would never consider rioting for such a cause.

Some say it's about a lack of respect for things sacred, and others say it's about freedom of expression/speech, but for me it's a whole lot of non-sense for people to react the way that they have. And of course I speak against those Muslims who have acted in such a disgraceful manner.

I know of many Muslims who find such depictions deplorable, but never would they act out with rage and violence like so many have. I would also like to mention, that I do not see these reactions as being specifically radical Muslim reactions. Many lving Muslims are also reacting this way. This is an ancient religion who still teaches ancient ways of thinking.

Just my $ 0.02.



This might get edited, but if we can, let's all take a long look at them.
Now does anyone feel the need to riot?


And what about these?



Blood-drinking Jews are frequently shown by Al Ahram, one of Egypt's leading dailies. On 21 April 2001, it printed a cartoon showing an Arab being put into a flatting mill by two soldiers wearing helmets with Stars of David. The Arab's blood pours out and two Jews with kippot and Stars of David on their shirts drink the blood laughingly."


"This lovely cartoon of Ariel Sharon eating babies was published in the UK in The Independent. Very interesting commentary from a strongly anti-Israeli cartoonist is here."


"In the Lebanese Daily Star in 2000, four consecutive drawings show how Sharon, with a Star of David on his lapel, becomes Hitler with a moustache, and on his lapel, a swastika. The cartoonist Jabra Stavro, born in Beirut, has won many prizes."


"From Al-Hayat al-Jadida, the official Palestinian Authority journal, The Pope exclaimed 'Peace on Earth' while the Satanic-looking Jew calls out 'Colonies on Earth.'"


"The infamous Piss Christ , a crucifix immersed in urine. While this was surely a sacrilage to MANY Christians and it rightfully caused a furor, no attacks were made against the 'artist' or the people who promoted and exhibited it."


And then there's this;


"TEHRAN, Iran - A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: the dungeons, corridor 13, cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 02-08-2006 01:41

i tried to explain this in another thread but in short the problem is that the most of the muslims who are protesting haven't actually seen any of these cartoons and they have been told that danish newspapers are making fun of their sacred idol/prophet Mohammed ... tho i'm on noone's side ...

F1_error
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: EN27
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-08-2006 02:09

Yep Arthurio is right. The Muslims listen very closely to what the clerics (is that the right word?) say. They have been told that the "Danish Media" has made images making fun of Mohammed. And that they should protest. Of course this has filtered down through all the various aspects of the Muslim beliefs right through to the radicals, who are well known to take everything to the extreme.
The real issue we should ask ourselves about this is; Why Now? These cartoons and images were published back in November. What was the true root cause of this to come out now, over two months later?

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-08-2006 02:33
quote:

F1_error said:

The Muslims listen very closely to what the clerics (is that the right word?) say.


Which is, of course, the root of the problem, and doesn't really change the point here...

quote:

F1_error said:

They have been told that the "Danish Media" has made images making fun of Mohammed.


To which, it needs to be said, 'big fuckin whoop!'

As zynx demonstrated above, such things are commonplace in regard to everyone else. We should exclude islam from what the rest of the world goes through?

quote:

F1_error said:

The real issue we should ask ourselves about this is; Why Now?


Agreed. As discussed in the other thread about these cartoons, the timing is clearly suspect - it's really a matter of who and why, but the fact that some major manipulation is going on is basically indisputable.

Again I have to be adamant though that regardless of the circumstances, such reaction to this bit of inoccuous nonsense is in every way ridiculous and unacceptable.

F1_error
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: EN27
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-08-2006 02:48
quote:

DL-44 said:

As discussed in the other thread...



Sorry man, I'm lazy. I didn't know what was going on in the other thread.

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 02-08-2006 06:51

My sense of humor sees jerry falwell and pat robertson huddled around a fire in the middle of the sinai, sketchbooks in hand. What they don't know is that jesus told mohammed where they are and mohammed let it slip and 2 days from now falwell and robertson will be set upon by millions of suicide bombers.
The end.

(Edited by NoJive on 02-08-2006 08:00)

kimson
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Royal Horsing Ground
Insane since: Jan 2005

posted posted 02-08-2006 11:06

Far from being funny indeed...

"Police shot into a crowd of rioters in the town of Qalat as they tried to march on a nearby US military base.

It brings to 10 the number of people killed in Afghan protests over the cartoons in recent days."

What the fuck is that all about?! Excuse me French...

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 02-08-2006 15:26

I really am surprised at some of the reactions here.

I would like to point out, that some jumbo jets got flown into two towers, not too many years ago. Since then, there is a number of wars going on in predominantly Muslim countries, and some very dangerous developements concerning Iran.

What is going on? What do you think is going on?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: the dungeons, corridor 13, cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 02-08-2006 17:22

live ammunition? why? there are so many different harmless ways for these situations.... rubber bullets, sandbag shells, teargas etc ... so they _had_ to shoot into the crowd??? these guys should be convicted for murder...

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-08-2006 18:18
quote:

Arthurio said:

these guys should be convicted for murder...


Are you out of your mind?

Angry violent mobs are burning abd blowing things up all over the place, and you want someone who is facing just such an angry violent mob to worry about non-lethal means of defense?

How about you stand there in front of an angry mob, and tell me how long it takes for you to stop considering unloading your gun and going to fetch the rubber bullets....which I might add are not "harmless" or even safe - they are simply less dangerous than regular bullets.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 02-08-2006 19:26
quote:
Angry violent mobs are burning abd blowing things up all over the place, and you want someone who is facing just such an angry violent mob to worry about non-lethal means of defense?

YES. Because there are non lethal means to spread a crowd, like gas and water canons ( is it the english term ? ). Unfortunately, not everybody care about doing as little harm as possible.

To get back on topic, IMHO the Muslim community is quite conservative in its every day behaviour and in the way it deals with non believers. Xians and Jews have faced public puns and mockery for decades if not centuries. They learnt to live with what we call : freedom of speech. It's a small small world we're living in, and everybody, even the Muslims, will be confronted to different opinions.

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

posted posted 02-08-2006 23:15

Yes Poi we call them water cannons, and such non-lethal methods were used in other countries that had riots such as India.

Regarding freedom of speech; there are however rules against saying similar things in the media about the Jewish faith or Christian faith in Europe, these rules don't apply to Islam (yet).



(Edited by Blaise on 02-08-2006 23:18)

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: the dungeons, corridor 13, cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 02-08-2006 23:42
quote:

DL-44 said:

How about you stand there in front of an angry mob, and tell me how long it takes for you to stop considering unloading your gun and going to fetch the rubber bullets....which I might add are not "harmless" or even safe - they are simply less dangerous than regular bullets.



i would have run ... until someone thinks of something better ... because i'm sure you agree that there's nothing more valuable than human lives ... as i understand it those policemen weren't protecting their family or smth ... but a US military base ... my guess is that there had to be something in that base that could have spread that mob non-leathally

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 02-09-2006 01:38

I dunno... I suggest you try it. Not to be mean, but I seriously think that is the only way. When you've got a rifle and a lowriding suicide sedan starts speeding your way, I'm positive you won't remember in what pocket you put the silly putty.

In the age of live broadcast and global telecom, it has become commonplace to second-guess a soldier on a firing line. On occasion- hell, maybe even *most of the time*- the guy reacted 'not according to the best procedure', but I'll give you half a second and a thirty-round magazine and you can tell me about proper response.

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-09-2006 02:50

It's important to remember a couple things

1) the fact that non-lethal means exist does not necessarily mean that the people in question had such options (or that they would have been effective in the given situation).

2) the people in question did not realistically have the option of "running away" for crying out loud. If you would run, then obviously you are not the right person to have guarding a military post. It seems to me that these people were.

quote:

Arthurio said:

my guess is that there had to be something in that base that could have spread that mob non-leathally


Ok. tell you what - you hold the angry mob at bay, I'll go have a look


quote:

Petskull said:

On occasion- hell, maybe even *most of the time*- the guy reacted 'not according to the best procedure', but I'll give you half a second and a thirty-round magazine and you can tell me about proper response.



Exactly.

Zynx
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Outside Looking In
Insane since: Aug 2005

posted posted 02-11-2006 03:11
quote:
DL-44As zynx demonstrated above, such things are commonplace in regard to
everyone else. We should exclude islam from what the rest of the world goes through?


And so continues the idiotcy!


" By Jonathan Kay

In 2003, artist Dave Brown published a cartoon in Britain's Independent newspaper depicting Ariel Sharon eating a Palestinian baby. "What's wrong?" Sharon is saying. "You never seen a politician kissing babies before?"

The cartoon provoked outrage for two reasons. First, it played on the debunked myth that Israel had massacred Palestinian civilians in Jenin the previous April. Secondly, it evoked the ancient libels against the Jews the most famous being the claim that Jews use the blood of Gentile children to make their Passover Matzoh.

Yet Brown never felt compelled to go into hiding from Jewish mobs. Nor was he bashful about showing up when the Sharon image won Political Cartoon of the Year honors from Britain's Political Cartoon Society. His award was presented by a former Cabinet minister at the London headquarters of The Economist, with nary a protester in sight.

Later, Canadian filmmaker Martin Himel interviewed the Cartoon Society's director, Tim Benson, to find out what he thought of Brown's award-winning creation. The exchange is captured in Himel's 2004 documentary Jenin: Massacring Truth.

Himel: "Why, in all these [British cartoons], don't we see maybe [Yasser] Arafat eating babies?"

Benson: "Maybe Jews don't issue fatwas."

Himel: "What do you mean by that?"

Benson: "Well, if you upset an Islamic or Muslim group, as you know, fatwas can be issued by Ayatollahs and such-like. And maybe it's at the back of each cartoonist's mind that they could be in trouble if they do so."

A dozen cartoonists who published crude depictions of Muhammad in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten are now learning this the hard way. At rallies in Europe and the Middle East, protesters held signs that demanded that such infidels be variously "beheaded," "slain," "exterminated" and "massacred." So much for freedom of speech. Or, as one protester's sign put it: "Freedom of expression go to hell."

That last one crystallizes the reason the Danish firestorm represents such a watershed in the clash of civilizations between the West and the Muslim world.

If the cartoons constituted garden-variety hate-speech, there would be no story. Political correctness is now as much a Western value as due process and representative democracy. In 1997, following a terrorist attack in Egypt, Gazette cartoonist Aislin published a cartoon showing a dog wearing an Arab headdress. The heading read, "In the name of Islamic Extremism ...," followed by the words "With our apologies to dogs everywhere." The Montreal newspaper quickly apologized to readers, and few even remember the incident. Such teapot tempests are old hat.

What makes the Jyllands-Posten controversy different is that it is not about hate censorship which has broad approval across all religions but about the idiosyncratic dogma of one particular faith.

As Haroon Siddiqui noted in the Toronto Star on Thursday, things began when a Danish author complained he could not get an artist to provide illustrations for an innocent children's book. The reason: Islam forbids pictorial depictions of Muhammad or at least of his face as risking idolatry. It doesn't matter whether the depiction is flattering or unflattering, peaceful or menacing. It is forbidden, period. That is what led an editor at Jyllands-Posten in a misguided effort to uphold the principle of free speech to commission the cartoons at issue. All across Europe, the ingredients for a violent culture war are in place. American conservatives like to lampoon Europeans as touchy-feely lefties who will do anything to appease militant Islam. But in recent years, the continent has begun to fight back

I say misguided because the cartoons are crude, and not particularly clever. Had they been submitted for publication in the Post, or any other Canadian newspaper, they would have been rejected on that simple basis alone.

But in Europe, it's the lofty principle not its vulgar implementation that editors are now standing on. Which is why several other newspapers defied Muslim threats and republished the cartoons this past week. Their point is that the ban on depicting Muhammad is, from a secular perspective, arbitrary like a fiat against showing a man's elbow. Or an avocado. Or the number eight. And if you give in to that, you're validating a quantum leap in political correctness that opens the door for extremists of any religion to enforce any no-go area they please.

All across Europe, the ingredients for a violent culture war are in place. American conservatives like to lampoon Europeans as touchy-feely lefties who will do anything to appease militant Islam. But in recent years, the continent has begun to fight back.

The French decision to ban the hijab from public schools in 2004 is the most famous example. But there are many others. From Jan. 1, 2006 onward, for instance, the German state of Baden-Wurttemberg has required immigrants to take a "conscience test." The questions include: "(13) What would you do if your daughter wants to marry a man of a different religion?", "(22) You have learned that a terrorist operation is under way. How would you act?", "(27) Some people think the Jews are responsible for many evil actions in the world and even believe that the Jews were behind the Sept. 11 attacks in New York. What do you think?", and, most pertinently to the current crisis, "(3) Some films, plays and books offend the religious sensitivities of people of different religions. In your opinion, what methods should be employed for the prevention of religious sensitivities from being hurt?"

As you run through the test's 30 questions, you realize how abundant and fundamental are the moral divisions between traditional Islam and secular Western society. Some pundits have written that Hamas's victory in last week's Palestinian election was a good thing, because it showed Israel what it's up against. The Danish affair may have the same effect on Europe.

Westerners tend to make triumphalist assumptions about their values. We assume that once traditional societies get a taste of free speech, female emancipation, capitalism and all the rest, they'll quickly cast off their patriarchal strictures and religious dogmas. That's proven true in most of the developing world including East Asia, eastern Europe and Latin America. But the Muslim world is putting up a stronger fight. A lot of blood will be spilled before it's over. And some of it may belong to cartoonists. "


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

(Edited by Zynx on 02-11-2006 03:18)

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