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_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 10:32 Edit Quote

Hello world.. this is more like a "transcript of a couple of interesting facts" I learnt yesterday.
Which builds up on some concepts I've exposed around here.

We had a couple of drinks (~cough, apologies to those who might have been offended by part of the result, we had way too many drinks actually, and I came back here for posting right after)
with two top notch consultants. One currently is a colleague, the other a former colleague, working in the field of security.

Read -large scale security, thousands of user accounts and org. units in his current assignment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the human immune system:
- a newborn baby has all the possible defenses againts all diseases that exist (read: everything, AIDS even under all it's forms), or COULD possibly exist.
Ask a Doctor or a biologist (well, this is a huge simplification but that's how it works).
- how comes we actually do catch diseases in spite of that? Because, as adults, we only keep an extremely small amount of each one of those defenses.

When a virus or bacteria are invading, the immune system finds the right counter-measure, and duplicates it in quantities that will actually remove the intruder.
So a good immune reaction depends on the time the body takes to react.

...and that's why AIDS works in the first place: because during the time the body takes to react, the immune system becomes too weak to react.
Sucks.

Why the hell would the body keep only such small amounts of defenses during an adult life then? Wouldn't it be easier to keep lots?

The answer is ca-pa-city.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does this relate to comps? Well...
Picture a -reeeeaaaally- large network.
It has an antivirus, and a solid one, updated regularly and all.

At some point, the antivirus contains so many virus definitions that comparing them to all the files on a system... just takes too long.
So long it doesn't make sense anymore to use an antivirus: you'd be using your comp JUST to run the antivirus 24/7.

So antivirii tend to release really old virus definitions.
Read that ten times: antiviriis drop out viriis that are older than two or three years.

...For my friend, this resulted in a old and weak virus impacting loads of users and crashing part of a network... because the antivirus considered it an "old" threat

Go figure.
I found the example and story very interesting, thought I would share.

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 13:00 Edit Quote
quote:
- a newborn baby has all the possible defenses againts all diseases that exist (read: everything, AIDS even under all it's forms), or COULD possibly exist.

I'm not sure this is true. My wife works in a special care nursery so I'll get her to ask a doctor. Admittedly the vast majority of the infants are premature and one could argue their immune systems are not fully developed but many full term babies start life in 'special care'.... anyway I'll get her to ask.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 15:00 Edit Quote

Yeah, you're right, but it's a bit more complex than that apparently.
My biology memories are not so fresh, but I was referring to the notion of "adaptive immunity", here:
http://www.biology.arizona.edu/immunology/tutorials/immunology/page3.html

The embryo's body does, indeed, make "defense plans" for new antigens at the time it meets them,
and therefore collects a huge defense memory. Kinda like a knowledge base.

This summary says more, but is still a bit unclear (only the igm level of response appears to be developping after birth):
http://www.larkfarm.com/AP/immune.htm

...I guess special care is a precaution for the extension of theyre immune system development, but it is already familiar to the body.

Plus an example of astounding immune system response is the fact we are attacked by things that alter our cells on a daily basis, causing a small possibility of cancer.
But parts of the immune system are designed to prevent this by repairing damaged cells.
And while the embryo hasn't been directly exposed to those antigens (gazes, smog, cigarettes smoke, etc..), the baby and the adult have a memory
of those particular antigens.

Plus this makes it a little bit blurrier, even:

quote:

Immunity: Natural and Acquired
Long ago, physicians realized that people who had recovered from the plague would never get it again—they had acquired immunity. This is because some of the activated T and B cells become memory cells. The next time an individual meets up with the same antigen, the immune system is set to demolish it.
Immunity can be strong or weak, short-lived or long-lasting, depending on the type of antigen, the amount of antigen, and the route by which it enters the body.



My understanding is that T and B cells are "activated" by a given antigen as memories.
Eg. permanent templates that will allow rapid cloning. As opposed to slow/random cloning.

But they are "activated" and "set" to a certain configuration, suggesting they contain a global draft of all possible schemas.

And to yet make this even blurrier, wikipedia suggests that the innate immune system indeed contains plans to a broad range of defenses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system#Innate_immune_system

My biology teacher was clear when I asked him "is there an innate immunity of that kind for diseases like AIDS"? Now that I come to think of it...

Looking forward to the answer from your wife's colleague.

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 15:53 Edit Quote

OK.... babies are born with a mild version of their mothers immune system... the infants immune system is given a kick-start with the first breast milk which is loaded with colostrum which "actually works as a natural and 100% safe vaccine." http://www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/colostrum.html

But until the infants immune system is developed, that is, develops independently, they'll catch anything that floats by... colds... chicken pox etc...and we do of course know some babies are born with aids...which by definition is 'aquired immune deficiency syndrome'...which in this case the infant "aquired" from its mother.

My wife says it's the 'colostrum' that's really the key. They call it 'liquid gold.'

Anyway <lol>... didn't mean to hijack the thread.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 16:41 Edit Quote

You're not hijacking anything, but from what I read above, T cells do function as global templates from the start, still, eventhough they need training to react <fast>,
and should be able to react against any possible antigen.

Even if the baby catches anything around, he is able to *invent* and produce the correct remedy automagically right from the start, or am I wrong? Is there any disease -not inherited from the mother- that is invariably lethal to a newborn?

If not, it still is a matter of how fast he can react.
I guess I've phrased it poorly due to the headaches, and lack of precise memories.

And I am not talking about babies born with aids, but about theyre ability/inability to produce a remedy to aids.
Does this ability exist or not? If the antigen CAN be detected, eg. if Doctors can detect aids, then the human body can create a response, but can't create it fast enough.

Anyway, the original intent, discussion and analogy put the emphasis on the fact the human body "deals" with the capacity problem we have with computer antivirus soft
by somehow forecasting what can happen and adapting more rapidly to what is likely to happen, instead of keeping a comprehnesive and detailed memory of the whole.

Does that make sense?

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 18:39 Edit Quote

I have to say this at least once a year. I apologize in advance.

Viri is the plural of vir.
Virii would be the plural of virius.
Viriis is mental retardation.

Virus + virus = viruses.

Thank you for your time.

Hugh
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dublin, Ireland
Insane since: Jul 2000

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 19:16 Edit Quote

There I was using the word virii like a schmuck.

TwoD
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Sweden
Insane since: Aug 2004

IP logged posted posted 04-22-2006 21:51 Edit Quote

I think it's actually the opposite. The baby relies very much on the mother's milk to provide it with the first samples of antibodies and other things neccessary to fight diseases. Once they get "known" to the body, it can start to produce them by itself.

/TwoD

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

IP logged posted posted 04-23-2006 05:44 Edit Quote

TwoD: I think that's what I said...or was trying to say 5 posts up ^^^^^

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 04-23-2006 10:43 Edit Quote

The concept of the immune antibody (humoral, or b-Cell) system is quite simple:

-you produce new b-cells. Each gets a randomized antibody.
-if the antibody matches during maturation of the cell, it dies. This prevents it from later-on detecting 'the self'.
-once it's matured, if it's antibody matches it clones it self.
-the antibody either directly blocks the activity of what it matches, or leads to it being degraded by other components of the immune system.

There's a lot more to this, dealing with how things that an antibody detects are actually destroyed, and of course the feedback mechanism, that leads to the b-cell cloning itself, involved here is a molecular miracle in itself, and then there is the system to detect antigens within bodycells...

But that's the basic setup Mauro was talking about.

(If you want a more thorough introduction, either borrow a Stryer or any introductionary immunology book at your university library.

So long,

->Tyberius Prime

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 04-23-2006 18:56 Edit Quote

Thank you TP.
And... err. I guess I have to thank Wes too, somehow

My mental retardation does it's best to respect your language though, keep in mind I am an italian in a french country, and have to work with 40 nations in one single building,
each user having his own engrish dialect to corrupt mine a little more.

But granted, I shouldn't get *that* wild on philosotechnology right after having.. done.. wild things.

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 04-24-2006 09:26 Edit Quote

Sorry, you're not the only person I've seen write "viriis" ... I've actually seen in on a couple of occasions lately from apparently native English speakers.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 04-24-2006 11:37 Edit Quote

No prob, it's actually "positive" to be corrected and all, it's just that while I am picky when it comes to coding,
I don't really have the time for triple checks when posting. Will remember this one thanks to you, though
(geeez... those twisted Texans )



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