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_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 10:38 Edit Quote

Okay, so, web apps are taking off. Outlook Express => gmail and windows mail, we have google spreadsheets, flicker, etc.
The benefit: easy collaboration.

I always stressed it was possible and fairly easy to transpose most, or all of the Photoshop features to a web app,
using Java, php, whatever.

But now I know how to do it business-wise, I know how to evaluate the cost, forecast potential issues, make development choices, coordinate
a team... 4 years later, I know such a project should not be a single man's duty.

But that a whole team can do It.
Can do it better than Adobe in all regards.

And everybody, coders or not, can contribute something: stress testing, auditing, custom gfx recipes turned into filters,
compatibility tests, you name it.

Plus it would/could be consistent across platforms: Linux, Mac OS, Windows... they all can run web apps the same way.

And in addition, I can get free marketing for such an app, radio coverage at least, written press as well.

If you have doubts, questions, whatever, I can demonstrate, step-by-step.
Now, who'd like to give a try to building such a thing?

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 11:11 Edit Quote

you don't need Java or whatever server-side component.

Check the Artist's Sketchbook Opera widget which of course works the same on Windows, Linux, Mac OS ... and soon(ish) on other platforms. Of course that's not PhotoShop, but the fact is most people using PhotoShop hardly use 5% of it. Add a few color operations ( which are dead simple to code ), layers w. eventually mask and basic tranformations ( translation, rotation, scaling ), and a and you've got a killer app.

Radio coverage ? who needs that ? get Slashdotted, Digged, Reddit, Newsvine, .... make sure your site can handle the traffic peak, and if your stuff is good enough and manage to bring fixes and updates quickly you'll keep the momentum going. At the point that you could even get press coverage, but I doubt the effect would be comparable to that of the sites mentionned above.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 13:31 Edit Quote

Sure, it's not -needed- that's quite a moot point imo, I am just opening up the discussion.

quote:

Check the Artist's Sketchbook Opera widget which of course works the same on Windows, Linux, Mac OS ... and soon(ish) on other platforms. Of course that's not PhotoShop, but the fact is most people using PhotoShop hardly use 5% of it. Add a few color operations ( which are dead simple to code ), layers w. eventually mask and basic tranformations ( translation, rotation, scaling ), and a and you've got a killer app.



All I see is paint as a web app, and a platform specific one (Opera widgets).
How does it compare to gmail for instance?

quote:

Radio coverage ? who needs that ?


In addition to web coverage. But if you don't want more ways, nevermind. Still, the coverage provided on a radio show
by a multinational deluxe consulting firm may be an added value.

I appreciate the interest poi, care to dig a bit deeper and think outside Opera? Web app, not widget, I said.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 14:11 Edit Quote

First of all, don't worry I won't proletize my employer. I like my job and all but I'm a javascript developer and that's all I care about. Add to that that I'd hate to be my employer's PR whore.



Come on, the Artist's Sketchbook is more than MS Paint.

What do you mean by platform specific ? do you mean OS, browser, hardware ?

Because Opera widgets (will) work everywhere, from computers to handsets and other devices. They use web standards and have a slightly relaxed security model which allow for cross domain requests ( which is needed for mashups ) and to import external ressources without tainting say a canvas element.

AFAIK Mozilla have a mean to gain similar privileges but I don't know the restriction to call that method, i.e: having your web application on file:// , using a special build of Firefox, Camino, ... ?

The thing is that if you want to import and edit images from a different domain than that of your web application, you MUST have higher privilieges. And a Photoshop-like without that is pretty useless.



About radio coverage, sure it's nice to have, especially for free. I might be wrong but my gut feeling is that the impact of radio coverage alone is negligeable compared to other media because that's one shot and *very* short coverage.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 14:34 Edit Quote
quote:

What do you mean by platform specific ?



Web platform. Aka web browser.

quote:

Come on, the Artist's Sketchbook is more than MS Paint.



Sure, but it still is a lot less than many, many simple texgens.

quote:

The thing is that if you want to import and edit images from a different domain than that of your web application, you MUST have higher privilieges. And a Photoshop-like without that is pretty useless.



Right but... wrong. =) I can read local files without signing anything namely.

I think that all in all, I was expecting a "would be cool" kind of answer, and you went maybe a bit further than I expected
and in another direction.

So.. web app as in: the user needs to install ideally nothing, won't suffer from security restrictions, and doesn't need to install certificates.

Opera is off of the picture on the "install ideally nothing" thing.
Safe technologies to use? XML, web services, server side programming, web standards.

How far can we go using just that? I am saying: further than Photoshop, way further.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 15:48 Edit Quote

One important question is what features do you want ? what do you want/expect people to do with this web application.


" Sure, but it still is a lot less than many, many simple texgens. "
Sure but texture generation is a completely different thing. It's probably easier to make a texgen than a simplified Photoshop.


Making a web standards based Photoshop-like work in IE or MS's JVM and elsewhere is ... hum ... well ... good luck. Therefore I don't see the difference between having to install a decent browser ( be it called X or Y ) or JVM.

Sure I agree 200% with the idea of web standards based image editor. I know it's possible but there is some technical and security issues that must be addresed. That's why I pointed out the Artist sketchbook. It represents one approach that is possible, today.


" Further than Photoshop, way further. "
You realize that Adobe has been working on it for more than 10 years now, do you ?

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 16:26 Edit Quote

My God.

quote:

Making a web standards based Photoshop-like work in IE or MS's JVM and elsewhere is ... hum ... well ... good luck. Therefore I don't see the difference between having to install a decent browser ( be it called X or Y ) or JVM.

Sure I agree 200% with the idea of web standards based image editor. I know it's possible but there is some technical and security issues that must be addresed. That's why I pointed out the Artist sketchbook. It represents one approach that is possible, today.



Lose that JVM altogether. And lose luck while you are at it: I am not talking "prototype" or whatever, I am assessing it can be done, and I can prove it. Leave luck for hazard games, I am not taking it in account right here and right now.

In other words: I am not asking you if you think it would be possible, I am asking you if you would like to contribute it, that's all.

- please come back to my topic now, I never-ever asked or doubted it was 150% possible, and don't want to debate that * if you want proofs, pick a random, simple feature, and challenge me to implement it by... Sunday. Any feature. -

quote:

You realize that Adobe has been working on it for more than 10 years now, do you ?



Yeah.
I realize it's platform dependent, so twice to three times more dev than a web app involved (porting).
Huge teams, if poorly coordinated, progress slowly.
PS has not made huge leaps forward since version 6 or so, the "deepest components", which all are easy-peasy to code individually.
And Adobe senior programmers are getting old - we are the new breed.

Basically, I am very disappointed poi. I merely was asking -who would like to contribute- and there you come, and rape
my thread, turning it into a feasibility debate.

Feasible, it is. Easy, it's not. Debating wether we "can" or not is not the point at all: do you want to?

And please, please leave the technical controversy, which I can dismantle easilly, for some other discussion.
I want -not- to bore or scare away people who are easy to bore or scare away.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 16:36 Edit Quote

And here we go again.. come up with a revolutionary idea, post, and somebody drowns you by drifting on things you never mentionned, but carefully ruled out from the start.

What about trusting me for a change, and the right start?

Proof of concept 1

No sessions. No cookies. Just php and javascript.

Let's take the challenge further... instead of creating two "simple" pattern tiles, and outputting them in three different file formats,
let's upload truetype and type.

Proof of concept 2

Guess what? No sessions. No cookies. But it still works. And it does accept user input. Go figure...
All scripts date from 2-3 years ago. Since then, for cross-domain issue, guess what? Web services appeared.

Now challenge me for good... any, I mean ANY photoshop feature.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 18:50 Edit Quote

Easy, you drama queen. I did NOT challenged. I know you and I have the skills to redo most of Photoshop's feature ... if we are given the time to. Don't want to be harsh but, come on, your 2 examples are nowhere near to Photoshop's level.

Oh well, nevermind.


Would I like to contribute to such a project ? Yes
Do I have time to contribute to such a project ? No

Additional question: Do I have time for ranting and pissing contest ? No




(Edited by poi on 09-21-2006 18:58)

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 19:41 Edit Quote

http://gimp.org/downloads/

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 20:32 Edit Quote

Reisio, this is exactly like comparing gmail and Outlook express. Especially in the case of Gimp. I did not say *free*, I said *web* app.

(note to self: do I speak chinese or what?)

With all the benefits it involves.

One idea among 10'000: versioning and multi-user graphic files. Can you do that with Gimp or Photoshop?
Another one: infinite, virtual storage of image files. No more "ram" issues, layers are kept server side, only the required snapshot is downloaded.

How long did it take me to -have- the idea? 5 seconds.
Why isn't it a feature of Photoshop already?

Because we are the generation who does things like PS pong, and who can build meaningful web apps.
Don't count on developers on the end of theyre careers to come up with such an idea.

P01, who's turning things into a drama? What's up *mate*, really?
Everybody has hard times, but how should I phrase such a thread to receive - constructive - input instead of technical banter - preceeding agressivity in this case?

"who wants to join my web PS project?"

Already posted that.

...Now, I'll close an eye on the assault to adress what is "usable" from it: no, my snippets don't pretend to rival Photoshop, since there is no really equivalent feature.
They just prove that two random features can be reimplemented in "pocket" versions without any local installer or client, other than <any> web browser.

Now, really, pick - anything - paths, layer masks, 3d, 2d, filters, blending modes.

Any feature.

And I'll show you it can be turned into a no-login web app.

krets
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Right-dead center
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 20:58 Edit Quote

Adobe used to have something just like this on their own website. I used to use it when I taught some HTML classes so my students could go and make/edit simple graphics for their pages.

:::11oh1:::

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 22:02 Edit Quote

How long since you last used PhotoShop ? ever heard of Adobe Version Cue ?


I can only invite you to re-read this threads and figure by yourself who turned things into a drama.


Just my 2 cents on how to get constructive critics:

  • Your very first post should be humble considering the order of magnitude of the project and the product you want to remake. Things, like yeah I always said Photoshop is easy to redo from scratch will at best bring you fan boys who know squat and make more experienced developers raise an eyebrow.
  • Also, talking about PR from the beginning is not useful. It's good to think about it, but clearly you've got a long road before having anything worth doing PR for.




Ok you labelled your 2 examples: 'proof of concept'. Fair enough. They are simple examples that mimic parts of some of Photoshop's features. I just want to notice they are very basics things for Canvas and/or SVG, both of which are open standards and of course require no cookie, session, plugin*, server side component or whatever.


Since you beg for a list of features, here are just a few for you to chew:

  • Smart object,
  • vanishing point,
  • pattern maker,
  • photomerge/panorama maker,
  • actions,
  • batch,
  • history brush

Have fun making those, and putting them all together, in a web application.


*: on a standard compliant browser.

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 22:04 Edit Quote

All right, I have a challenge.

Show me the one feature the magazines claim Gimp is lacking:
calibrated CYMK,

In a web app*. Without installing anything.




(*Login/no login I don't care either way)

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 22:48 Edit Quote
quote:
_Mauro said:

it would/could be consistent across platforms: Linux, Mac OS, Windows...


GIMP is consistent across Linux, Mac OS, and Windows.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 23:06 Edit Quote

Have evaluated poi's challenges. Using sessions, but without cookies, I could do them all. Some have really clever algorithms
and would be a pain, but it's -only- data processing.

Eg. "render" the guides using javascript on the interface side, and event-send only those rare meaningful actions to the backend.
Doesn't google maps, and half of the web do that?
At any point in time, a photoshop canvas, btw, only "needs" to display one single, solitary image (the current canvas state). So the server-side can resend that and only that.

A bit like Amikael's odd techniques, but with a lot of delay and clever client-side interaction between each server-side call. More like Ajax without xmlhttp.

...

CMYK calibration sounds a lot harder. But color profiles... some image formats embed them natively. I am not sure I get you 100% on this one, TP,
are these "calibration values" used for balancing doses of ink used by an offset printer?

All in all, wacom, printers, and peripherals are the main "concern", but printing should be possible to handle through the image formats, or some js features, or
services even (remote printing or some stuff like that, a web service?), or a mix.

Wacom is a bit more difficult... not the position, the sensitivity... I wonder. It's a complex one.


Scanning, well, can still send from the "twain" thing to the web thing.

....

Decisions, decisions, I have to pick one, which one? I'd opt for TP's, it's the less interesting to me (but the most to print users) and the most challenging.

But I'll leave it up to you to assign. Fair enough?

And while we're playing fair, what will you add to the project if I win the lil' challenge?

[edit]@reisio - Gimp - last time I checked on Windows, it was a bit quirky. But granted, it's excellent open source. like OpenOffice, Suze, and many other of those products.
It still would rock to have a web app for gfx[/edit]

(Edited by _Mauro on 09-21-2006 23:08)

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 23:11 Edit Quote

(and btw, agreed, it's huuuge, but who should I entice to doing it? Who knows Photoshop and webdesign best?)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 23:26 Edit Quote

You know as well as me how wrong was/is Amikael's approach. It may work for his simple stuffs, but your project is lightyears ahead. You'll need a gigantic server farm to handle all the requests when you'll get radio coverage if you don't want people to wait seconds for the most simple operation, like moving a layer and getting the correct result ( taking mask, filters, adjustment layers, groups, folders, opacity, blending modes, smart shapes , color profile, .... into account ) back from the server.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-21-2006 23:32 Edit Quote

What if I had it already? Or if I could find huge investors to -cleverly- back up the project while letting us free of all moves?

...

CMYK calibration can be performed using the ICC profile. Meaning: using jpeg, png, jpeg2000, or tiff.
Just have to tune the print details... javascript.print()? hmmm...

quote:

like moving a layer and getting the correct result



1) Move one guide on the client-side: realtime
2) On drag release: Send 200kbs (png) or a lot less since you can 7z for sending (20kb 7z for instance) to the server, 2-3 seconds max. If 7z, not even a second.
3) wait for the response snapshot. 200kbs in png mean a quite huge resolution / rich -snapshot- / image. Downloads are generally faster than uploads.

Other scenario:

1) Produce and send a separate rich png guide image of the layer, same time as a.2 to start move sequence.
2) Move only the client-side snapshot.
3) Just send the new position of the layer for the final processing, and update the canvas snapshot (back to 2-3 seconds max).

snapshot == viewport if you prefer.

And honestly, the day it becomes famous enough to cash billions and crash down servers, we should all buy an island in the carribean, and build a sibling care center.

(Edited by _Mauro on 09-21-2006 23:45)

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 00:07 Edit Quote

(actually, quick diagrams and evaluations can be drawn based on a "transactional unit size", like 200kbs tyipcally. We know an average of what it means in terms
of bw and time, could lay out "events" based on that - it would be an event driven system, only lighter than usual to allow bw and huge server power, together...

To rival local apps - more bw, less power, picture server powered, instant ps filters.

In the end, it really feels like it can be equivalent in overall usability)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 00:08 Edit Quote

Great. Hope you can also get the huge investors pay travel fees to organize real life meetings with all the members of the team every 2-3 months.

Anyway it doesn't change the fact that I don't have time to actively contribute to such a project. Sorry.


Would you, as a user, bare a 1-2 second delay for even the most basic operation ? I won't. With that kind of delay the users will close your application within a minute and flame it every where.


/me signing off. I have to wake up in 4.5hours to take plane to France for 4 days.

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 00:22 Edit Quote
quote:
_Mauro said:

It still would rock to have a web app for gfx


It'd rock to do it. I'm not sure how useful it'd be, but...

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 00:37 Edit Quote
quote:

Anyway it doesn't change the fact that I don't have time to actively contribute to such a project. Sorry.



No prob, really.

I won't even enjoy destroying your arguments (2-3 seconds *is* the time I use for a rich, 16M colors, 1600x1200 pixels image to move a layer anyway, the local
redisplay takes that time in terms of local processing power inside Photoshop - it doesn't on the server, and this is balanced by the load time to be very close to the local time in the end)

(A 1600x1200 image weighs 200kb in png, more or less, tested on several samples).

Probably would be useful to me anytime I want to edit an image in details and don't have anything handy.

quote:

...Great. Hope you can also get the huge investors pay travel fees to organize real life meetings with all the members of the team every 2-3 months.



(I actually do travel every 2-3 months for my job, go figure)
(And that guy is posting on a web app on the internet. web forum. 5000 people who meet daily, randomly. Go figure)
(er..

no, I don't get it, what the hell are you talking about?!?)

Enjoy the trip to France.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 05:00 Edit Quote

one post before leaving.

Indeed you don't get it: For the real life meetings, I'm not talking about YOU, but about all the members of the team. Those meetings are important and useful. And not everybody can afford to take some days off and pay their own trip 4-6 time a year. Some members might still be students.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 10:01 Edit Quote

Poi, I support high tech based on one web app on 300 sites worldwide for a huge company. I swear to you it can be done remotely,
this or I am paid huge amounts of money for my sexy looks. Now stop making MY plans, will ya? You don't want to contribute, -fine-,
in the same vein, why not stopping being a pain in the ass on the issue?

Maruman
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: under your bed
Insane since: Oct 2000

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 10:37 Edit Quote

woh, what a lively disscusion we have in here

I dont really understand these things, web aps are cool and all, but unless you have a super connection there gunna run pretty crappy right? doesnt flickr do something with basic image manipulation? or maybe i just imaginded that.
sounds like a cool idea though.

just my 2 cents play nice now kids

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-22-2006 12:18 Edit Quote

Well, what you say equates what p01 says. I am saying no-way, and that it would definitely be able to rival the real thing.

I don't mind it getting that lively, but to reach such a goal, it should have been productive, as in "ok, let's trust InI and propose our own cool views
on what such an app should and could look like".

No time to waste on doubt.

And as I am calling for help, I am eager to taking any of those cheap challenges, and will do, but with productivity in mind,
again I ask... what does the project get from my "showing off"?

See, I am not trying to argue on wether it can be done or not, the question has already pondered and I say
"yes" and would hold that yes before an enterprise committee as well, it's no miracle, just skills and excellent planning.
So quite naturally, my concern is getting people involved more before proving my right.
...

One more idea: for CMYK documents, tipycally, if they're shared and versioned, then the guy from the print shop can see it as the graphic artist edits it.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 09-25-2006 23:19 Edit Quote

I know managing projects with members in different countries is possible ... especially in a professional context but in a spare time project ( which I guess is the road you aim since you did not mention the project would be tutored and contracted by a company ) it REALLY helps to have some real life meetings every 2-3 months to make people feel apart of a team and update everyone on the status of the project.

If giving my opinion is being a pain in the ass, fine. But if I were you I'll take every voice into account ... even ( I'd better say especially ) those who go against your idea.


So, how went your calibrated CMYK pissing contest ?


ps: Don't feel offended by the term 'pissing contest', we use it at work to qualify the stupid nerdy challenge we have, e.g. making the smallest/fastest color space conversion in Canvas. The funniest part is when you ripping someone else code apart and make it 2-4 times faster

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-25-2006 23:48 Edit Quote

No offense taken, but it felt you did need a rest of sorts See, dood, I love coding, and I am tired of consulting for things that are not my passion strictly
- so why not join the web app trend and be proactive about it to unleash magic.

"Aim at the stars and you may touch the sky" - but is still is feasible with a solid team, methinks, and I also strongly think technology allows what I said above.

To answer your question...

The CMYK went this way: a one hour solid read, 4 easy (jpeg, png, tiff, and don't remember which other) formats can embed ICC color profiles to preserve CMYK calibration among things, BUT web browsers
loathe ICC and mess up with it.

Still, nobody cares: all was required was a cmyk->rgb renderer, because this way allows working with a real good feel of the CMYK palette, and calibrating inside
the ICC headers (4 values, one per channel). Two php scripts therefore: one for adjusting the values and saving them to the ICC header,
and one for loading/converting the picture to rgb (all throughout, the CMYK image remains intact except it's calibration info, and it remains in CMYK but speaks to the web user in plain vanilla rgb).

Code draft laid in one hour, but I didn't feel like implementing, got caught by gpling on a broader scale.

And... As I said above, I expected a step in my direction as well, so 50% of the work on my side sounded fair

...On the bus today, when riding home, I found a great beta-tester for a real challenging feature: Wacom. And my niece, the artsy one
She's always short of real world paper because she paints a lot, would love offering her an infinite pixel canvas.

(Edited by _Mauro on 09-25-2006 23:51)

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

IP logged posted posted 09-25-2006 23:58 Edit Quote

* Gives p01 a sloppy peace kiss on the forehead * I don't piss. Never. Ever. It'd harm my circuits (and you're not a pain in the ass, you're lively, and life is the
thing that happens while one makes plans.. only I was the one trying to follow a plan. Bugger plans).



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