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argo navis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 08-25-2007 05:13 Edit Quote

Ahhhhh.. the BIG question.

In cases like this, I love finding figures. But they are hard to find (for reasons).

I know a couple who succesfully grew up out of broken relationships, cheating "together".
But to this day, they both keep cheating, and they both maintain a relationship over a distance of several kilometers
(for him, out of fear of the "real deal", for her, out of casual sexual pleasure which she always gets back to very naturaly).

I know a guy who just dumped, while telling her his feelings again in very intense words, a woman involved in a fresh affair - because he was travelling
for business apparently. It was the kind of "I love you but this is killing me and you can't put it to an end" kind of breakup.

And I have been, myself, at some point in my life, the "other man". Which I found disgusting and bear to this day as a guilt and a stain on a relationship.
Guy forgave me, thanks to the group of friends, but I never dare to pick up the phone and call him - something has remained bizarre.

On for another 100 posts wilderness my little finger says

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 08-31-2007 17:41 Edit Quote

I've always been of the opinion that someone who would cheat on their lover/boyfriend/partner/husband to be with me, isn't worth being with. I look at it like this; if they'll cheat on them for me, why wouldn't they cheat on me for someone else?

Nah - trust and truth are more important to me than most aspects of any relationship... but I doubt that these are such steadfast staples of many others' constitutions. I have a friend who cheats frequently, and every time he does it, he loses a little more of my respect. My brother cheated constantly (and still does, though married with kids), and despite the fact that he's my brother, I just can't bring myself to trust him as a person any more - liars and cheats are cheats and liars, whatever else they may be.

Maybe there are those in unhappy relationships who have left their other half for the affections of one more worthy, and they have succeeded in garnering a lasting relationship together... but for the majority of people, cheating seems to become a habit (perhaps even an addiction) that destroys any chance they might have of a real relationship. In many cases, the compulsion to cheat is probably a direct consequence of some emotional incapacity; their inability to form a lasting and honest connection with their partner.

I have been less than faithful in my youthful past, but having been betrayed by at least one partner (repeatedly), and realising the crushing misery of questioning everything you once took comfort in (like love and honesty), I could never do that again.

I had a girlfriend once who stated that she would break-up with me before she ever cheated on me. She did so too, and left me for another bloke. My misery at losing her was profound, but as nothing compared to what I would have felt should she have maintained an illicit affair behind my back...

...and yes - it all comes out in the wash eventually, no matter how clever or careful you think you are. o.O

My 2p.

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 08-31-2007 18:37 Edit Quote

Life is all about crushing misery, it happens. and being thankful for the good times is all we have to live for. Relationships with the opposite sex (assuming you're heterosexual) are like mini series of life. they're intense and can be full of ups and downs. But strength is in controlling oneself, controlling your emotions, and controlling your guilt.

Cheating is nothing more than societies stigma, care little for it and look forward. What a man does in his time is his own business and his to share at his choosing. If he has respect for his long term partner he should deal with his actions and choices as a man, with care and consideration for others. But mostly consideration for himself.

A man that has to cry to his girlfriend every time he is intimate with another woman isn't a man.
A man that has to hold a relationship with a girl that he cares little for isn't a man.
A man that is in control of his environment and his social activity IS a man.

Love isn't on or off, it grows and needs to be nurtured, if love is what they want then they have to earn it, they can't just expect it to stay around. Sounds to me like it's all about the sex for the girl and all about the guilt for the wuss.

Cheers,



(Edited by Blaise on 08-31-2007 18:39)

argo navis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 09-01-2007 14:04 Edit Quote

Interesting views, join mines in many ways.

I'd tend to say that cheating is self defeating in many cases, because it's aimed at replacing something missing, not at the new partner,
and basing a new relationship on lies as White Hawk pointed out.

What, then, is considered cheating, depends solely on the implied agreement that is broken : kiss and dance can be cheating IF it breaks the agreement, etc.
I think and feel, as the purpose of couple in our cultures is to create a bond strong enough to transmit proper behavorial patterns to kids, that such
cheating behavior from a partner stems mostly from his/her insecurities, as in "I am craving for attention, not sure I can make it through the couple,
I may be hurt so let's hurt first".

All lines of thinking that are very much self destructive, and impacting relationships outside of the couple, as pointed out.

I am no cheater, if my talk is not enough to point it out. I happen to have a very strong seduction, which has been hindering my partners trust in the past
and incidentally causing these patterns - although I have never been doing anything wrong in years.

I wish our societies, in reply to Blaise, would carry strong family values because my concern here is for children and our future,
since young people today already see other human beings as consumable goods.

In the case b that I quoted above, I saw the girl, in appearance very strong minded, but cheated on in the past,
drown into such behavior - although evidences of her cheating are slim, but evidences of lies, obvious - because she was getting mad at his
succesful persona, afraid she would lose control she broke the guy in two by putting up an act that, to this day, remains hazy,
and God knows he had gone into extremes to show what he was about. Poor guy.

This leaves me with the question of honesty in couple : how far should it go and is the room for "little white lies"? How do you accept white lies yourself?

I've also observed incredible patterns in the past days, of one of my ex gfs who left for example : she had treated me like horseshit for I was young,
faithful but stupid and consistently jealous. She recently confessed to me, as she is with a guy since two years or so, that it took her a whole year
to get over me, and she missed me all the time. Remembering these feelings (and some booze) led her into messaging me about how much she would like to be single.

Appreciated but weird.

This specific pattern seems to be reoccuring in my personal life btw, many exes will go as far as dumping me, only to call me a few weeks after,
remembering the fun, the sensuality, the intelligence, the adventure. I'd tone down the cockiness if I wanted to be anyone but myself.

All this crap in the name of love... I'd give self confidence classes, might be the way to go about healing wounded societies : I've had them all,
the artsy, the antisocial, the strongly sexual, the working woman, the religious, so different profiles, and yet a "get back rewind" sense of
"at some point they mess up, then they regret for years" - so what, let's get dorkish and act repelling? Call that a paradox.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 09-01-2007 21:59 Edit Quote

To be honest, why should I care what he/she are doing, what type of relationship they have, and how they are dealing with it?

They are both adults. They are both responsible for their actions, regardless of whether or not they are aware of it or not.

Thus, whatever the outcome, they are responsible for it.

Now, that said, I personally have never had an affair. I avoided all the attempts to the contrary (including controling my own lusts and desires to avoid such).

Such deceitfulness is not something that I cultivate or want in my nature. As master of my own being, that is something that I have control over.

Note that for me, it would be deceit to MYSELF - I could not accept or live with myself behaving in this manner. It has nothing about respecting the feelings of others here. It has EVERYTHING about respecting myself.

quote:
A man that is in control of his environment and his social activity IS a man.



Hmmm.

I would say that a man is he who is in control of himself and he who has learned to accept who and what he really is. This is not something that you just decide, it is something that you are - either you are it, or you are not. I would say that his social activity reflects this, but does not reflect everything that he is.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 09-11-2007 04:29 Edit Quote

I like White Hawk's logic that if someone is going to cheat on their "significant other" to be with you...then they are probably not going to be faithful to you either. Kudos for that one, WH.

I could be old fashioned, but I am a big supporter of faithfulness, commitment, and trust. I'll give you two examples and then I'll shut up.

A friend of mine was in karate when she was younger. She was sparring in international championships with a guy from the middle east/asia. Somewhere between Iraq and India. Anyway, he was in an arranged marriage from his birth. His culture is very into these arranged marriages, apparently. She commented that would be such a horrible thing, not being able to choose your wife. Not being able to do it for love but just because your parents wanted you to marry another family's daughter. He said something I thought was astonishing. He said that he had already made it up in his heart to love her. He also said that the divorce rate in his country was around 5%. And he was willing to bet that 5% wasn't from arranged marriages.

The point I'm trying to make here is that he decided to love her. It's under my impression and experience that love is a decision, while lust or desire isn't.

So when someone "falls out of love" or stops being faithful, is it really love for another dictating their paths and emotions, or is it lust, desire, greed, etc?

I've been off and on seeing a girl for the last year and a half. It has been a bumpy ride because I would have some thoughts about whether dating is good or not, etc. But I decided I loved her last year. And it is a hard thing to love her all the time. Sometimes I don't like her. Today I didn't really want to be around her much, but I still love her. Sometimes it is easy and sometimes it is hard, but I still love her through it all. Even when she is at her worst, trying to make me jealous, giving me the cold shoulder, whatever, I still do my best to love her. THAT is what commitment is about. If we attach love to emotions and happiness, then we are in for a rough ride which will lead us up and down and end up coming up empty. But if we attach our emotions and happiness to love, then we will begin to learn that this whole world isn't about us. We aren't the most important thing on this rock. Then we can start to give up our life for someone. Then we can start loving. True love is giving your life up for your friends. That's what my brother did. He gave his life up for me. He loved me. Even though I didn't deserve his sacrifice at all. If we can live like my brother, and love in our relationships like my brother did, then our world would be better off. And I bet the girl or guy will stick around longer if you love them.

That was a bit of a ramble, but I had to get that off my chest.

And Argo, don't beat yourself up about being the one used to cheat. I'm sure that guy has forgiven you, and if he hasn't then just ask him to. It could be hard, but if you didn't know that girl was using you to cheat, then it's not your fault. Perhaps he could be a good friend, don't know.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

argo navis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 09-11-2007 20:12 Edit Quote

very interesting indeed, pardon my amuzement, it's all for the best.

quote:

It's under my impression and experience that love is a decision, while lust or desire isn't.
So when someone "falls out of love" or stops being faithful, is it really love for another dictating their paths and emotions, or is it lust, desire, greed, etc?



Good question. Attraction is said by some not to be a choice, rather a behavioral response. I believe that (goes with the lust/desire/greed without judgement on my side).

We all are jealous to some degree.
In our societies we assume that a good parental bond will help kids grow healthy in their minds.

I truly believe that a healthy relationship should be about trust, communication, respect, and a will to grow PAST the behavioral responses,
after all we CAN control our lust yeah.

But cheating happens. A lot.
(About my friend, let's not worry, he accepted my apologies, but something inside him is still broken and different. The girl is now taking care of cattle
and retired of society altogether).

Why? Billions of reasons. Lack of self esteem. Lack of respect for others. Lack of education in that regard.
Not one good reason, cheating is cheating, YET some people do it.

...I now think that except a stunning case of "love at first sight", there is no affair which will develop easilly, because of the initial lies,
and also because what was missing in the original couple may not be the whole of a relationship
(so the cheater may find, once out of the relationship, that it was all illusion).

This said, you mentionned unconditional love, which is good, and yet a topic for another debate : how much of inconditional love should be given?
I, for one, tolerate cold shoulder or other bullshit from girls in very limited amounts, VERY limited, am I being selfish?
I am interested, it's introspection season 0)

Gideon
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth*
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 09-11-2007 23:52 Edit Quote

I think attraction is a better word there. However, can you lust after something good? Can lust be a good thing in certain contexts?

I don't know if toleration is a good word for unconditional love. I can't tolerate bad things in people. When this girl gives me the cold shoulder I don't tolerate it. But the way I go about the problem isn't by breaking up with her, cheating on her, etc. I talk to her about it. I agree that communication is important in a good relationship. But you can't put up with people giving you crap, you need to let them know that is wrong and you don't like it. And if they disagree then they aren't worth the friendship. Although I think girls do stuff like that sometimes in some morbid idea that it pulls us closer to them.
I don't know, it could be just me but when a girl pulls the jealousy trick or the "come chase after me" trick it just makes me turn the other way. I don't want a girl that will always be manipulating me.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

argo navis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 09-12-2007 01:35 Edit Quote

You have a healthy way about your beliefs Gideon.
"pulls the jealousy trick", etc. You acknowledge reality while standing for your beliefs. Kudos.

Good stuff.

Can lust be a good thing in certain contexts? Of course, lust fosters instinctive mating. Practically speaking, it's nothing more than that, while a human mind and soul are so
much more complex. Hence the "flaw" : instinctive ways of mating will lead low self esteem girls to accept abuse from cheating partner, for instance.

They will lead "dumpee Joe" right back into the ex's panties. And so on and so forth.
In the end, and to tie it at the same time with your perception of God and my perception of a "broader" reality (than just facts and observations),
it all comes down to choosing a way that is not harmful to oneself, nor to the species. Every choice in life brings a person closer to "God" (and whatever that concept may encompass)
or the devil (and life threatening ways and actions).

Geez... we be deep.



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