Po1, I've grown out of being surprised by the things people conspire to be offended by. They parade their offended sensibilities like a flag in a marching parade.
I really do think all life is sacred, it's one of the reasons I've not eaten any meat or fish for the past thirty years. I do a mean mass murder on fruit and vegetables though.
Murder is a human invention.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-05-2008 07:27
At 22 weeks life is not sustainable outside the womb. "It" hasn't even yet developed skin. At 23 weeks life outside the womb is still a very VERY iffy proposition even with todays technology. At 23 weeks when a nurse rotates the machine supported life form, the beginning stages of skin actually stick to the fingers of the nurse.
I've said it before and here it is again. When MEN can have babies this argument about abortion ends once and for all.
**My wife works in Neo-Natal Intensive care.**
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
23 weeks premature why, why ?! the baby will spend months supported by a machine, may not develop correctly ... that sounds crazy. I understand that each and every situation is different and people do it with good intention but it feels almost inhumane. It sounds like one of the cases where euthanasia would be fine / more human.
Almost always false. Many abortion protest photographs are artist's renderings or the result of image manipulation, and the bulk of the rest are of very late-term fetuses aborted for emergency medical reasons. The most well-known graphic abortion poster is of a 30-week-old fetus, aborted six full weeks into the third trimester. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and Roe v. Wade only protects first and second trimester abortions.
4. "Even first-trimester fetuses can feel pain."
False. Fetal nerve cells can react to trauma, but pain reception requires a neocortex--which is not formed until early in the third trimester.
5. "Fetuses become conscious at 8 weeks."
False. Fetuses begin to develop a minimal brain stem at 7 weeks, but are not capable of consciousness until the third trimester and most likely remain unconscious until birth. As one brain scientist puts it: "the fetus and neonate appears incapable of ... experiencing or generating 'true' emotion or any semblance of higher order, forebrain mediated cognitive activity."
7. "Banning abortion will get rid of it, once and for all."
False. In El Salvador, abortion is illegal with a possible 30-year prison sentence attached--and women can still easily obtain cheap black market abortificients to induce abortion. The only drawback? No medical supervision. Banning abortion won't put an end to abortion, but it will put women's lives at risk.
10. "Human life begins at conception."
False. Human life actually begins prior to conception, because each sperm and egg cell is a living thing. It is more relevant to discuss when sentience, or self-awareness, begins. In 2000, the British House of Lords established a Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience, which estimated that higher-level brain development begins to commence at about 23 weeks.
Jade, we have been through this all before. You really need to get your facts straight here. Your emotional appeals, based on faulty information, just do not cut it.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:She is just appealing emotionally, Poi, without getting her facts straight, as usual.
Well....I get emotional and hope to stir some emotion. Whats wrong with being emotional about these babies? WB, why are you so hostile to the unborn? You have built a wall around youself in the name of freedom of rights, that you can't let your mind and heart even fathom that there should be concern for the rights of the tiny unborn individual humans. They are so precious and wanting to be born. Take a look at this video silent scream. I saw this about 20 something years ago. If you can see it all they way through and feel emotional then maybe there is hope for compassion. If you can see it all the way through and still not change your heart then nothing anyone can do or say will effect your stance on the act of abortion. Also sending a nice pro-life video
What facts are you referring to WB that I have not got straingt?
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England Insane since: May 2003
posted 02-05-2008 19:46
As I said in my opening post, my views may be a little inflammatory but...there you go. I'm not a big believer in the sanctity of life; the entire belief is entirely arbitrary. I mean, consider a sperm. Is killing a sperm evil? I can only assume not too many people have qualms about it, or we'd hear more attempts to bring every one to fruition A zygote? So it has 2 sets of alleles. Joy. This is no more "human". This process continues, and we have to have an arbitrary cut-off point, of course, or we'd be murdering adults. But this cut-off point is just that, arbitrary.
As poi says, babies can survive their infant months in inhumane conditions thanks to early labour...so the cut off point is too early as they ought to have been aborted? Or they survive so it's too late?
Meanwhile, the decision that "higher-level brain development begins to commence at about 23 weeks" again seems entirely arbitrary. Why is this the point at which it becomes 'wrong'? So there is a subtly different set of chemical processes taking place in the foetus's brain. This is the core of the problem: most people have some innate belief in a soul, or something of this kind, that distinguishes adults from a zygote. But a human adult is simply a more complex structure of physical and chemical reactions.
Why can't *everybody* agree on *any* rational time in the process to stop abortions? Because there isn't one.
At least...this is how it seems to me.
(personally I'd like to call myself staunchly pro-choice...except that most people with that moniker are equally as irrational and insane as those with the opposite point of view. But you get the idea).
quote:My main concern is with the women and the right to control their bodies FIRST.
I am sure the feminist movement and Planned Parenthood in America thanks God for persons like you. Out of site, out of mind. And the baby corpse stays buried forever. They don't even get proper burials. I think some are incenerated like those babies at Auschwitz.
Most men in general applaude Roe vs Wade because it doesn't bind them for 18 yrs financially because of a mistake they made one nite. But there are some who understand the moral responsiblity regardless and who are compassionate to babies in the womb.
quote:I am sure the feminist movement and Planned Parenthood in America thanks God for persons like you.
Please, bare in mind that there is many people of different belief, not only in your country but also in the very walls of this Asylum, who don't believe in your "god". Remember of those who thank Allah, Javeh, The Lord Savior Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Celestial Teapot, Thor and the tooth fairy for people like WebShaman.
quote:Out of site, out of mind. And the baby corpse stays buried forever. They don't even get proper burials. I think some are incenerated like those babies at Auschwitz.
Yeah because abortion is exactly like eugenics. Thanks for clarifying this point for all of us. You just lost the last shred of credibility you might still have.
I think perhaps I should elucidate on my last post.
quote: Tao said:
I really do think all life is sacred, it's one of the reasons I've not eaten any meat or fish for the past thirty years. I do a mean mass murder on fruit and vegetables though.
Murder is a human invention.
I am not suggesting abortion should be banned or made illegal. I think it is very saddening that such an act should take place, and it should be avoided if at all possible. However, this decision needs to be made by the woman who is pregnant, she should be made aware of all the alternatives supplied by medical, social and family members, but the decision to abort or not is hers.
As for how far along the development of a pregnancy should go before it is deemed illegal, immoral or murder (murder meaning the foetus is an individual human being with inalienable rights) I think we can only judge day by day. By this I mean we are constantly changing our views our perceptions of this issue by new "discoveries" in science. Not so long ago a person would be declared legally dead by a medical practitioner if a mirror held up to a persons mouth did not steam up from the exhalation of breath. With the advancement of science the diagnosis of dead years later would be if the heart had stopped breathing, and so on.
Morally? Heh, we are imperfect beings in an imperfect world. The best we can do is try to understand as best we can, the world/universe and our place in it and hopefully do that with love.
I prefer to follow a real GOD's laws.
Because in the end for me that is the only
laws that really matter. That would mean
for me to do the best that I can do to preserve,
to help & to honor the laws of God.
Jade, do you even have the slightest clue what we're talking about? Simply put, by comparing abortion to Auschwitz, you've lost all credibility.
And your pathetic God/Godwin play on words is just another typical evangelical aversion to the subject at hand. Kind of like taking your ball and going home when you know you're losing the game.
WS is right : there's no quoting anything "nazis" and the likes in any debate, a mention of Adolf, etc, means your aguments
don't hold on to reality anymore - you're short of supplies.
I actually haven't read the rest, but there is that little paradox in the talk of creationism advocates, etc.
Darwin actually based his evolutionary theories based on his faith. As a scientist, he believed reality had been created by God,
and considered it respectful to observe and classify the creation - thus his classification of species, and observation of evolution
over generations.
It was just his observation of what he believed to be the creation of God that outlined the evolution theories.
According to his theories, the purpose of a living being, therefore, is to live at it's best and "use it's specificity".
...While banning abortion would help save foetuses who are arguably "not living yet", it would also greatly hinder
the abilities of the mother. Victims of rape - pregnancy after child abuse - trisomy, simply. I had an acquaintance who's greatest happiness
was to see his girl pregnant... until they discovered trisomy was around.
Which brought him close enough to breakdown and suicide.
...now this is a question, as poignant as the topic is to me :
How good is it, according to your God, to condemn such people to live the hell they would be put through?
quote:Jade, do you even have the slightest clue what we're talking about? Simply put, by comparing abortion to Auschwitz, you've lost all credibility.
What???? Are you for real?...We in this present civilization are exterminating precious life.. How ever you want to blind yourself to the reality of what is really happening to innocent life. Yes..we are no better the the Nazis who exterminated humans. Its a fact. How many jews and undesirables died in the prison camps; 6-7 million.. We have exterminated since 1973, more than 50 million babies and counting. How sorrowful and inhuman treatment of little persons.
What does credibiltiy have to do with the issue of abortion?
Does that mean I have to have my facts right. Are abortions credible? Yes. Do they happen? Yes. We can believe it. Abortion Mills have been compared to Nazi Camps for years and its all over cyberspace.
More primary is that women choose to abort for pleasure. So they can have a pleasurable & happy life without the worry and finance of a newborn. I call it what it is and that is very credible. To abort for the necessity of the health of the mother is not an issue as it was in the past because of the advancement of science.
When we the people legalize the slaughter of unborn babies we say this: people are allowed on this planet only when their presence does not inconvenience those who rule their lives. Giving the mother this power is only a threat to the lives of their unborn children. But the logic given legal standing in legalized abortion can easily be extended to rulers other than mothers. Following that logic any governmental agency can be decreed to have the right to eliminate people based on the "inconvenience" test.
As a believer in Jesus Christ, I'm convinced that moral absolutes exist. Ones convictions as a Christian, and as a physician, include the sanctity of human life. If each individual human (including unborn babies) does not have worth, if we do not acknowledge our responsibility to care for the unwanted and the defenseless, we will find our collective path ending at the ovens of Auschwitz, the Gulags of Siberia, or the Abortion Chambers of America.
Adolph Hitler once stated that if you tell a lie enough times, people will eventually begin to believe it. His observations proved to be chillingly accurate, as evidenced by the fact that an entire nation of otherwise intelligent and ethical people believed his lies that certain ethnic groups were untermenschen or "subhumans." Six million lives were then destroyed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka, and numerous other Nazi death camps as a result of the apathy of the German population, who chose to ignore the accusations of their own consciences and to permit what they instinctively knew to be wholesale murder.
It has been said that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Today, history is repeating itself as it so often does. Once again, Hitler's diabolical rational is gaining momentum. And once again, innocent lives are the sacrifice that it demands. Untold millions of children have been classified as "subhuman," and sentenced to die horrible deaths that surpass even the most brutal methods of destruction devised by the Nazis. Indeed, it would seem that Auschwitz and the other death camps were never really closed at all, but were merely transferred to the womb and labeled as "safe and legal abortion." In a society of supposed "civilized" people, as Americans no doubt would like to view themselves, this atrocity cannot be tolerated. If the American people allow abortion to continue, then we certainly have no right to point an accusing finger at Adolph Hitler, for tragically, he is our mentor:
At Nuremberg, Hitler and his henchmen were condemned by the American judges because they encouraged the killing of the unborn.... Hitler was wrong, even though most of the men on our Supreme Court today defend what the Nazis did. If we do not stop killing infants, we will do what Hitler did: we will kill the handicapped, particularly when those handicapped are aged. Then we will kill the truly handicapped who are retarded. We will go further than Hitler, being "better" educated than the Nazis. We will do it scientifically, of course. We will call on brilliant scientists. We will ask them to tell us which child is worthy to live and which is not. We will go Hitler one better. We will commit wholesale infanticide, like pagan Rome, where even healthy infants were often put to death if they were not masculine, like their executioners. There is no doubt scientists will cooperate, as they did for Hitler. We already have many of them clamoring for the death of the elderly and the "unfit."
ok.. I have overstayed my welcome here but I never will give up fighting for the right to live life for all people and that includes the people in the womb.
You have yet to answer my question, instead of quoting nazis and digging deeper in delirium.
quote:
people are allowed on this planet only when their presence does not inconvenience
Having the babies of a rape for a teenage girl, to quote one very legitimate case, is not *exactly* an inconvenience.
Having the baby of her own father, for a child who is victim of abuse, is not *exactly* an inconvenience.
Having the choice between medically assisted abortion, and burrying their second baby alive, is not *exactly* an inconvenience
for peasants of the chinese countryside, who have little or no means to prevent the pregnancy to begin with.
This sadly is reality - the reality you can see when you look anywhere else than "up to the sky" (Is it a bird? A plane?)
So, again, eventhough you seem to care more about reinventing the holocaust than actually reading other people's opinions : How good is it, according to your God, to condemn such people to live the hell they would be put through?
More primary is that women choose to abort for pleasure.
Yes, having an abortion must be such a good laugh -- I might try it one of these days. Why I never thought of swapping an evening at the cinema with one at the abortion clinic, I'll never know
jade: wow! I decided to not read anything you had to say more in this thread, but the quotes I've seen from your last posts are plain insane.
quote:Adolph Hitler once stated that if you tell a lie enough times, people will eventually begin to believe it. His observations proved to be chillingly accurate, as evidenced by the fact that an entire nation of otherwise intelligent and ethical people believed his lies that certain ethnic groups were untermenschen or "subhumans."
His observations also proved to be chillingly accurate, as evidenced by the fact that masses of otherwise intelligent and ethical people believed that ~6.000 years ago an all mighty and omnipresent man created the entire universe in 6 days and made it so as to look like it's 15 bn years old just to test people's faith in him.
why do I even bother talking to you again ?
oh yeah, because your baffling lack of grasp of reality is too much for me to take the only sane option : shunning you.
Argo, I understand that parents of unwanted children, usually just the abused woman, don't want to take care of a child that constantly reminds them of a horrible time in their life...or that some families don't have the money to take care of a child...but is that the child's fault? Why should the child have to die just because s/he is an inconvenience or even a burden to his/her parents? Again, it looks like euthanasia to me...
I think I agree with a comedian I listened to once. He agreed with abortion...at the age of 18. Parents should wait until their children are 18 and then decide whether to abort them or not. Give the child a chance at least.
Heehee - having just turned thirty (birthday wishes welcome), I was winding my father up about age and whatnot (as one does) when he pointed out to me in his matter-of-fact tone that it wasn't too late to have me aborted.
Great news!!!! Hugh arbortions clinics hopefully will become death camps of the past. Your tax dollars won't help to cover the cost of the procedure to murder millions of babies that women want you to pay for because they chose to have irresponsible sex.
Deuteronomy 21:18-23
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. 22 If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, 23 you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
posted 02-05-2008 02:42
why, why ?! the baby will spend months supported by a machine, may not develop correctly ... that sounds crazy. I understand that each and every situation is different and people do it with good intention but it feels almost inhumane. It sounds like one of the cases where euthanasia would be fine / more human.
A zygote? So it has 2 sets of alleles. Joy. This is no more "human". This process continues, and we have to have an arbitrary cut-off point, of course, or we'd be murdering adults. But this cut-off point is just that, arbitrary.
