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argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-08-2008 21:47

serious. To keep in mind.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 03-08-2008 22:49

Touchscreens are sheeeeit for hover effects.
When they can actually register hover, it's really hard for the end user to apply the correct presure.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 15:14

Just thought I would share : I believe in multitouch
and fint it great - but it changes interface design.

This said, for the most part, and that's where experimenting
and straying from best practices is good, my sites work,
dhtml/xhr included, on pocket safari.

...Except rollovers And another exception : the khtml "position: relative; bottom: xx%" issue.
Common to conqueror and all versions of Safari.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 03-09-2008 16:29
quote:
that's where experimenting and straying from best practices is good

I really don't know where you get your (mis)informations about best practices. You know, people have been experimenting for some years now and come with these best practices. They don't come from thin air.

Usability and Mobile best practices never said one must rely on hover ( or color ) effects. Here are just a few quotes from the W3c mobile best practices flip card :

  • Ensure that information conveyed with color is also available without color.
  • Exploit device capabilities to provide an enhanced user experience.



Have you ever worked for anything than computers, and worked with usability experts ?
[edit] s/worked/developed [/edit]




(Edited by poi on 03-09-2008 18:08)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 16:59

Poi - take what follows as honest advice.

I do not talk with people who "assume" anything about me, or assume they are absolutely right all the time for that matter :
it's moot. If you're right, why are you talking to me, and if you think you know me, why are you asking about me?
And I do not give a fuck about constructive advice from people who refuse to evolve and be challenged either - I don't have the time.

Rephrase your question without cockyness or provocative arrogance, or leave me alone for good, thanks.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 03-09-2008 17:35



quote:
And I do not give a fuck about people who refuse to evolve and be challenged either - I don't have the time.

Neiher do I.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 17:49

So why bother?

Who do you think you are to imply anything about my past work experiences? Seriously,
be real for a moment :

When I met you, you were an unemployed chap asking me how to format a resume and making nice 256 byte toys.
which led you to get one position. Cool. It never entitled you to COME BACK TO ME INSULTING ME ABOUT MY TAKE ON MAKING WEBSITES,
Anakin. I didn't share MY views with you in the past in hopes you would do everything I expected as I wanted it - I gave you MY view
as that, without a pretense at "having it right because I am l33t". Leet fuckers belong to somethingleet.

You were the one asking how to display yourself to the professional world and now you come back to me all arrogant
ABOUT ROLLOVERS ON MULTITOUCH? From a position for a browser vendor who makes the least user-friendly browser on the market?

No really, am I to expect more teenage stuff like this from you? Spare it to me.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 18:08

And back to topic, because I had a point about webdesign before someone kicked in :

THIS fires two alarms in Firebug.
It is BAD standards wise. Terrible. And?

XHTML was a standard. That didn't work in real world. So now what is it? An obsolete pain in the ass.
Experimenting with "mistakes" on ipod touch, I now know exactly what works and doesn't work there,
and afaik, the CCS bug is not documented in a book. Having experimented canvas enough to my taste,
I know it doesn't work in real world YET. It works in the book though.

And the same goes for any topic where I hear poi saying "you MUST do it that way".

I "MUST" do nothing - and I certainly don't owe it to you personally with such arguments up your sleeve.

I think that any person who feels life is about abiding exactly to what others preach should get a bible, or a coran,
and reduce their workload to focus 50% of their lifetime on religion and dogma. While Jade has surprised me positively recently,
I get the opposite surprise from people who I used to hold in the highest regard.

Life is strange like that. While I suggest some people stick to rules, I'll keeping living the life of a man.



(Edited by argo navis on 03-09-2008 18:09)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-09-2008 18:48

Here we go again...

Same ol, same ol.

Do you ever get tired of it, InI/Mauro_/Argo/Etc?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 19:25

Webshaman : anything to say about webstandards, anything to bring to the topic, any technical insight you want to add?

I thought so : anything you can say to prove or disprove the validity of anything coming from poi? I can.
I can tell you he's delivering a lot of bullshit based on a bias about these topic, and consistently.

Now, regarding your "I don't care but I am gonna talk to you anyway" attitude, shall I quote yourself, on chat,
whining the fact you will stay off of my threads, or the moment I blocked you? Good. I thought so as well.

Like poi or anyone who has no time to waste FOR REAL, what about you stick to your promise to YOURSELF you'd be off of my horizon?
Oh, but I forgot you had some technical insight to sh...

Ah no.

Not even that.

Look who's talking - I think it's how reactions like yours are labelled in english.
Kindly note that I avoided calling you names - energy gets placed where it belongs. It BELONGS in
avoiding tbe world to lend an open ear to crap talk about web standards.

It doesn't belong into making Webshaman a MAN to begin with.



(Edited by argo navis on 03-09-2008 19:26)

(and btw, I know because we discussed it extensively that your sticking repeatedly to the same argument,
never answering any question directed towards you, in other words, your little dance, is an attempt at manipulating
public opinion negatively towards me. It's obvious : it will be obvious to anyone worthy of a constructive exchange.
I just thought I'd call you on it, who knows, you may even take responsibility for your mistakes, act constructively,
quite rehashing the same argument, quit the cheap provocations, and move on into being a full person.

But the round edges of your tiny cube, and the tactics, like the one above, used to avoid making a point and sneakingly
try to prove something that is not? God they're gross. I am sure you can do better than this - but as I said,
I am no therapist.)

(Edited by argo navis on 03-09-2008 19:33)

kuckus
Paranoid (IV) Mad Librarian

From: ber/ger
Insane since: Dec 2001

posted posted 03-09-2008 20:01

Huh, you're still aroud? I can't quite see why, as it seems no one has been giving any valuable input these past months anyway. And seeing your kind of "output" it's a wonder anyone is still bothering at all.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 20:07
quote:

is still bothering at all.



Kuckus. I don't remember having said what you just interpreted.
But since you want to hop on the bandwagon ON YOUR OWN, here is your chance to be the better person : show me where and when I have said these words?
Or anything close to those.

I remember having predicted some inmates would try to use manipulation tactics to get me off though.
Are you trying that by any chance?

quote:

a wonder anyone is still bothering at all.



Kindly note I specifically asked them not to. It would be a wonder to me if their motives were the ones they speak,
but poi's motive is proving his worth, and Webshaman's motive is hindering my image because he is afraid of me,
has a personal grief against me, and is in general so fascinated by me that he will read any single thing I post -
and then pretend not to give a fuck.

So, back to my question, what is your real motive here? Technique?

(Edited by argo navis on 03-09-2008 20:10)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 20:29

No reply from kuckus, expected. I expect none : I would if there was something to say to defend your position.

quote:

I really don't know where you get your (mis)informations about best practices.

Have you ever worked for anything than computers, and worked with usability experts ?
[edit] s/worked/developed [/edit]



Poi, I mentionned a few days ago you feel like you are looking down on me - and asked you to leave me alone for the first time back then (We're now at the third time btw).
This is exactly how such sentences feel - and it is exactly what they ARE : arguments like this were ok when I was 15.
I am 30. Insults get no answer, but with the small rephrasing, I'll give you the following :

One of the products I am selling now, together with my software and my services, is a multitouch hardware table,
much like Microsoft Surface. One of the products I have worked to support was a portable barcode scanner based on Windows Mobile/Windows CE.
I only was development support, meaning I only had to analyse, troubleshoot AND document for 600 sites spread over the entire world - remotely or on-site.
See what I mean about how good an idea I have of the usability problems related to portable devices?

One of my big problems with you is the way you have got out of the "free coder" state of mind to enter the
Opera corporate philosophy : it's normal, healthy even.

NEVER WILL IT ALLOW YOU TO INSULT ME IN ANY WAY - and it doesn't make your views or understanding of webdesign perfect either,
unless you are the flying spaghetti monster itself. It makes you an Opera monkey preaching Opera views. And that is a dangerous bias.

If, on the other hand, you were able to remove the pompous "I work for Opera and know what's right" feel from your talk to me,
then I'd allow that talk to happen. But disrespect? Gets paid back. THAT is part of your implied contract with me when you expect an answer from me.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-09-2008 20:32)

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 03-09-2008 20:33

Hmm ... feature idea ... collapsing OT posts and modding/voting posts as OT ... what's going on here again?

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 03-09-2008 21:32

Shun off.

FYI I got the point of web standards years before joining Opera. It's no surprise that my advocating for (open) web standards and best practices overlaps with that of most/all browser vendors and most of the web design/development community. Anyhow, you're free to say, do and believe whatever you want. No matter how much noise is made, one can't stop the signal : whether it is to assess someone's worth ( as if anyone was really interested ) or to read on web standards and the process leading to the elaboration of best practices.

Shun on.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-09-2008 22:30

Arthurio, poi, two wonderful suggestion/steps towards free expression. The more it goes, the higher it flies.

Reminders :
1) This is a thread I have opened.
2) It'll be the fourth time I ask specific people to give me a break because
I don't give a shit about advice delivered as mindless dogma - and in an insulting way.

A quick summary :

1) Topic at hands : rollovers don't work on multitouch.
2) Poi's reply : argo, you don't know the shit I know (episode 3000 - asked not to hear that kind of crap 100 episodes ago).
3) Argo's point : I don't give a damn about what you know if all you can do is wave your tingleys instead of using sincerity minus the arrogance.
4) Everybody else's point : dev/null (coercion attempt, episode 2574, for Webshaman, plain dev/null for Kuckus).

Few seasons of the series ago, I said "cut me some slack". DL-44 said "ok, so leave the thread at that".
Today, someone - sorry, many persons, break their own rules again.
What to expect in the future?

What I predicted.
The SAME unless some people decide to draw the line.

What not to expect in the future?
1) Me leeching off of bullshit.
2) And me quitting.

Being mature about it all or not? Is not my take unfortunately, all my demands - namely, the now repeated 5 times
demand to poi to cut me some slack - are reasonable.

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-10-2008 00:50

If you don't want input from people who have relevant input to give...then why post?

Really argo...you are way off base in your accusations lately, and you would greatly benefit from reading the things that are posted, and responding to them on their merits, rather than jumping to wild conclusions about the intentions of the poster(s).

You are only making yourself look foolish when you behave like this.
For the record, let me give you my version of your 'quick summary':

1) Topic at hands : rollovers don't work on multitouch.
2) Poi's reply : indeed, such things are do not work well
3) Argo's point : I don't give a damn about what you know if all you can do is wave your tingleys instead of using sincerity minus the arrogance. (note the irony smacking you upside the head with your claim of others' arrogance)
4) Everybody else's point : chill out...
5) Argo's point: I'm being attacked
6) my point: no you are not. chill the fuck out and take what is posted on its merits rather than as an attack. remember what everyone needs to remember, in any of their relationships: it's not all about you.

FWIW

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-10-2008 01:14
quote:

Have you ever worked for anything than computers, and worked with usability experts ?
[edit] s/worked/developed [/edit]





The above is a quote from poi. How much does it get on your "pushy/offensive/bold" scale?
To me, it hits the "waving his tingleys" score.

As for the original purpose of this thread, informing web designers that :
a) rollovers don't work on the web
b) my websites mostly work, and Safari quirks are the same on Ipod touch as they are on the rest of the web.

Where do you see a question there? That's what I thought.

Webshaman's superbly predictable, manipulative, post :

quote:

Here we go again...
Same ol, same ol.
Do you ever get tired of it, InI/Mauro_/Argo/Etc?



How does that fit your "chill, dude", perception?
Seriously, I thought it was clear from a few threads before : I do NOT give a fuck about poi anymore since the day
he started shifting from genuinely helpful to painfully Operobotized - to me.
And sincerely, I didn't ASK for anything here.

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-10-2008 03:34

All I can say is - stop, take a good look at all the posting you've been doing, and the attitude with which you've been doing it.
You have not been rational. You have not been approaching anything in a healthy manner.

If you cannot see that, then I can't say anything further.
If you can see that, then step back, take a breath, and move on with a healthy attitude and without the chip.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 03-10-2008 03:44

About " Have you ever worked^Wdeveloped for anything than computers, and worked with usability experts ? " : This was a honest question with no other intent than what it says on the tin. Not a rethoric, smirky, one.

My English is certainly lacking, but I can't think of another wording making this question sound more legitimate than it does now. Adding things like " No offence but, " or " Excuse me, but " ... would have done no good. No good at all.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-10-2008 03:56

Poi, honestly - my english is as shitty, and at this time of the night, we won't sort anything out.
With Tao, it was good to give it a few days break, and then talk again - I truely think it's the best thing to do here.

And I truely think it's best adressed in PM - ideally, OR a "safe to delete" thread.
Now that it has gone public and wild though... Cool?

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 03-10-2008 09:23
quote:
argo navis said:Arthurio, poi, two wonderful suggestion/steps towards free expression. The more it goes, the higher it flies.



??
Don't you agree that most of the posts here have been OT? I can't think of anything good that flies high so WTF did I do?!

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-10-2008 10:09

Anther thread, down the drain.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-10-2008 18:50

Don't shut it down now : I want to get through
and I will. No dl, even with calm, the problem here
I will handle. Short version : between wanting to help
- no question asked on my side btw - and what has happened,
there is a thin line poi has crossed.

Arthurio : ot yes, since when? Since poi's personal opinion
has been delivered where it was not called for.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-10-2008 18:58

If this continues, I will move this thread to the Basement.

Either stay on topic, drop the personal crap, or I will move it.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 03-10-2008 19:50

argo: my humble opinion: all the aggression, anger, hate etc is out of line. Things could be settled in much more civilized ways. You don't need to write 2 pages on how much you hate poi or anyone/anything else every time someone dares to reply to one of your threads. Chill. People are different. If you don't like someone or find him/her annoying then just ignore him/her. It really is that simple. That way we could all be much happier.

edit: Be polite and people will mostly return the favor!

(Edited by Arthurio on 03-10-2008 19:52)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 03-10-2008 20:49

argo navis: where did I cross the line ? I said in my previous post that my question was honest and that I could not think of any other wording making it sound more legitimate. I have no grudge against you. I never had. Stop the paranoia.

Calling people names won't get you very far. The only person it damages is yourself.

Granted, I'm not all white, I happen to be blunt at times and have moments where I'm obviously not the sharpest blade in the drawer. But if I were the evil do-er you say I am, surely others would jump on me and finger point me every now and then.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-10-2008 21:12

And if I wanted to open up another one, what would you do?
be a douche. As usual. One who feels empowered by his "moderation privileges".
at the end of the day, a mad scientist's job is a mopper's job.
feel free to move this thread, shine brightly as an impotent mopper,
and when you're done, kiss my ass.

Arthurio - there is no way poi is minimizing his petty insults
or regaining my respect for that matter : whatever his intentions
the form was as wrong as the regular claims some make about me.

But I grant you one thing : a moron deserves no consideration.
when there is potential for much more though, pitty kicks in
and i remember Arthemis righteously joking about the
general "look at my peepee" waste of energy.

Why do I sound full of myself at times?
Nowadays, because i can : i am signing 4 zero
contracts on my behalf regularly.

Poi's general approach to webdesign is about innovation,
it's his take. But it's a take that never worked well on
some browsers.

The way i leave information around aims for "further reference" :
To this day, if you google me or opengl java, you'll quickly find
the perfect base code for opengl java.

Bottom line : the place is a goldmine. Hindered by a few pigs.
I'd love to offer positions on mid to large scale assignments,
like our two 3d scanning systems, one portable, one for medical imagery.
or the muktitouch table/walls we have started to sell.

But the problem, as i waste my time struggling with pigs, is that I
get dirty and they get to enjoy it.

This doesn't remove the good from this place :
but the penis petting ang mutual high fiving of some moppers
prevents everybody from using this wealth the best possible way.

I have listened to, and filtered your feedbacks. It's time, again, for me to
draw the line myself : I will lurk, I may post back, I may not,
as I am, quite simply, disappointed and finding some specific persons
truely mediocre.

I guess that's what I get for trying to teach pigs how to fly.

Google "march of the pigs" to read more on how funny and sad
such a dance feels when watching it from the position of a guy who
has bags of money to put into practical results.

I

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

posted posted 03-11-2008 01:52

@P01.

quote:

Granted, I'm not all white,



AMEN. Finally some sense, honesty, and taking responsibilities.
NOW I can answer your question : my "misinformation" source is... ding-ding REALITY.
In reality CSS3 is a PROJECT as well as CANVAS and stuff like that : it all exists on paper.
In the same reality, my pages work REGARDLESS OF WETHER YOU FIND MY USAGE OF FONTS PRO OR NOT.
And in the same reality again, happy customers calling happy customers, my business is growing before I even had time to finish my webpage
OR my business card.

Your crossing the line? Your denial regarding my requests at leaving me ALONE is one in and of itself. It's simple : if I define my bubble as
ANYTHING - the polite thing to do is not to question my reasons, in case your mommy didn't tell you.

The polite thing to do is to stay off for the time I desire not to hear you - or face anything I'd like to throw at you
for I warned you - and did it repeatedly.

...Yes, you started wanting to help me. I don't have time to filter between your dreams of grandiosity for LI tags or CSS 3 and what will work here and now for real.
That's where my appreciation of your "help" stops and where you are being a brat to me. And no I bear no responsibility for your miscommunications,
as much as I am willing to take responsibility for mines : but telling you to go to hell is what YOU called for.

End of war. WebMopper, enjoy your cookie.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 03-11-2008 10:13

End of thread.

Moved now and locked.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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