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Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 12:27 Edit Quote

There's been a lot of talk recently about human rights, what with China holding the Olympics and their track record with human rights of their own people.

The fact is it happens all over the world but it seems that people are too proud to admit it, or the wool has been pulled over their eyes when words like 'just war' are used, or even aid!

Here's a shocking example of it happening in the West so blatantly http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/nyregion/13detain.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 14:51 Edit Quote

Sad story.

At least there are those attempting to change things because of it (very unfortunate that someone had to die before something was done).

But this explains much of it :

quote:
Born in China, he entered the United States legally on a tourist visa. Mr. Ng stayed on after it expired and applied for political asylum. He was granted a work permit while his application was pending, and though asylum was eventually denied, immigration authorities did not seek his deportation for many years.



Well, he was staying in the US, through his own decision, illegally. He knew it, as well.

The consequences of his decision are surely severe, and totally unjustified, certainly. But there can be no doubt that his decision was the reason that these consequences took place.

IMHO, this is much different than the type of Human Rights violations that China, Russia, and especially North Korea practice on a routine basis on their Citizens. In those cases it is a systematic process that is deliberately being practiced, whereas when such cases happen in the US, they normally are examples of the system-gone-wrong (and needs fixing).

In the case of the Cuban retainees, however, that is probably not true (incarcerated in prison without any rights). I do understand that they made the choice to come to the US, illegally, and that ultimately that choice led to their situation.

It still does not excuse the handling and proceedures being used to deal with them (and they don't in the case of Mr. Ng, either).

But those examples are far, far different than that which is practiced in countries like China, Russia, and especially North Korea.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 15:19 Edit Quote

Yeah, I am having a very hard time seeing this event being in any way comparable to the human rights issues that China has had over the last 50 years.

CPrompt
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: there...no..there.....
Insane since: May 2001

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 15:24 Edit Quote

hmmm....so I didn't see where it said it, if it did but,

quote:

he was swept into immigration detention and shuttled through jails and detention centers in three New England states.



why was he sent to a dentition center? Just because his visa had lapsed? Seems pretty damn harsh if you ask me.

Later,

C:\

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 15:49 Edit Quote

No, not just because his Visa had lapsed, but because he was notified that his application had been denied and that he wrongfully decided to stay anyway.

This shows intent, IMHO. Intent to violate the law. If left to his own devices, he was intent upon staying illegally in the US.

In that case, I can certainly understand why he was then put into immigration detention (because all polite and considerable attempts to send him on his way had failed).

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 16:21 Edit Quote
quote:

DL-44 said:

Yeah, I am having a very hard time seeing this event being in any way comparable to the human rights issues that China has had over the last 50 years.



It's simple, mistreatment and lack of compassion, enough to let someone die and rot in a cell, it's abuse of a man's human rights.

quote:

WebShaman said:

No, not just because his Visa had lapsed, but because he was notified that his application had been denied and that he wrongfully decided to stay anyway.This shows intent, IMHO. Intent to violate the law. If left to his own devices, he was intent upon staying illegally in the US.In that case, I can certainly understand why he was then put into immigration detention (because all polite and considerable attempts to send him on his way had failed).WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities. - Sophocles


His application for political asylum had been denied, but he had a work visa, eventually when he was to to attend an immigration court the appointment was sent to the wrong address! It was an admin error on the immigration departments behalf that meant this man ended up in jail, not his abuse of the system, he was trying to go through the system. Besides I think you're skirting around the issue, it matters not how he ended up there, it's the treatment that's the issue.

And it's not an isolated case, http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/immigration_detention_us/incustody_deaths/index.html

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 16:22 Edit Quote

Have to agree with WebShaman and DL-44.
[edit] Which doesn't mean I rejoice from such story. This should not happen in any [civilized] country. Ever. [/edit]



(Edited by poi on 08-14-2008 16:26)

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 17:07 Edit Quote

Can anybody explain me why on earth the state should be allowed to keep
illegal immigrants in detention for over a year?
(The EU is going the same route. Crazy.)

I mean, either deport them, or grant them legal status... but detaining an innocent man is immoral.




(And don't get me started on: Guntanamo. Aduction of german citizines. Refusal to allow
*any* customs/immigration detainee to speak with their consulate. Free speech zones.
Warrantless border searches of laptops. Large scale wiretapping. Waterboarding.
iPatriot. U.S.'s-Iraq prisons. G8-Summit in Germany, or the german 'federal trojan'.

Just tell me it ain't systematic.
Repeat it.
I might believe it.

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 17:48 Edit Quote

OK, so the story about the man going to jail really highlighted an issue to me as it's quite a shocking story, and it happened inside the west, but to answer the question about it not being equal to the abuse of Human rights from China, Russia, and North Korea I think this article sums up my feelings on the subject a little more

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8673

I understand that there are different levels of it happening all over the world, and few can be blameless, it's the hypocrisy of it all that dumbfounds me. Or is it simply ignorance?

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 17:50 Edit Quote

Apart from areas that are, for lack of a better word, outside of the jurisdiction of a country, I can explain why states often detain illegal immigrants (and sometimes for long periods of time).

And often, the simple reason is that the originating country will not accept them back.

So what does one do with them? Set them out on some uninhabited island in the Pacific?

quote:
His application for political asylum had been denied, but he had a work visa, eventually when he was to to attend an immigration court the appointment was sent to the wrong address! It was an admin error on the immigration departments behalf that meant this man ended up in jail, not his abuse of the system, he was trying to go through the system. Besides I think you're skirting around the issue, it matters not how he ended up there, it's the treatment that's the issue.



A work visa is nice, yes, but it certainly is not a granted right to stay over the time of the granted time in a country. And one will often find that errors in the system cause quite a few problems (like sending a legal writ to the wrong address). I am curious as to what you suggest should be implimented in its place. AFAIK, there is no perfect system, and as finances get shuffled in the great financial budget, those without skills and connections will find their department lacking in funds, and therefore, often a source of many mistakes.

The dept. of Immigration is no exception to this.

I have dealt with the US Dept. of Immigration before, and believe me, it is not a friendly, nor easy institution to deal with. However, there are more effective ways to deal with them - I went through a 3rd party non-profit organization that knew people on the inside, and was able to move things smoother, more effectively, and quicker.

I can only say that things like this are present everywhere, that having the right connections will often get you what you wish.

And Blaise, I am not "skirting around the issue". I am telling you how it is. You may wish to turn a blind eye to the personal responsibility that Mr. Ng had and his decisions that lead to the circumstances surrounding his death, but that does not mean that I will not point them out. As a guest in a country, he should have made every effort to inform himself about what was required to secure that which he wanted, and made sure that he fully understood them. This means staying in regular contact with the Dept. of Immigration, making sure that his address information is correct and up-to-date, and also meeting and fulfilling any and all requirements of him from that office.

That said, and as I also pointed out, it is not a reason to treat him as he was treated. I think it is safe to say that we are all in agreement on that.

Now, you cannot seriously be comparing his situation and treatment to that which is practiced on a routine basis in China, Russia, and especially North Korea!

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 18:29 Edit Quote
quote:

WebShaman said:
Now, you cannot seriously be comparing his situation and treatment to that which is practiced on a routine basis in China, Russia, and especially North Korea!


No, that's why I sent the other link but I guess this is all moot now anyway.

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 19:15 Edit Quote
quote:

Blaise said:

It's simple, mistreatment and lack of compassion, enough to let someone die and rot in a cell, it's abuse of a man's human rights.



It's still, as WS talked about, a matter of the system not working, as opposed to institutionalized and systematic denial of human rights.

Is it a bad thing? Of course. Horrible.
Is it the same thing? No, clearly not.

That's all I'm saying...

{{edit -

in light of a few various comments I missed, let me just add: one big mistake in looking at these situations is the assumption that any country or society is "civilized".
We like to think that there are these bastions of "right" and "good" and "civilized society".

There aren't.

(Edited by DL-44 on 08-14-2008 19:19)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 08-14-2008 22:15 Edit Quote
quote:
I understand that there are different levels of it happening all over the world, and few can be blameless, it's the hypocrisy of it all that dumbfounds me. Or is it simply ignorance?



It is the former, actually.

I think that people just shove it out of their mind as long as their life is relatively comfortable, they tend to not want to think about the conditions that others may be living under.

Is it hypocritical? Certainly.

Perhaps many feel powerless to do anything about it (or at least that is how they justify their inaction, or even non-thinking). I think Pink Floyd said it best :

"Comfortably numb"

That said, I am as guilty as any other, although I have done what I can to affect the world and the things in it that I find offensive.

I can now say in hindsight, that my actions were not always well thought out, and often the consequences of them resulted in the opposite of what I was trying to accomplish.

I can say that I was in the Military, and participated in that which eventually broke the Soviets, however small that may have been. I participated in a number of other operations, some rather successful, others horrifyingly disasterous.

To that, I am not really sure that violence is always the answer. I think now that military solutions should be the last alternative, the last option, when all others are exhausted (except when the opposer does not give one any other options, that is, which is rare IMHO). As much as the recent history of the US pains me (the occupation of Iraq), I still firmly believe that the best way to fight tyranny and suppression is by providing an example, and living it.

It is my great hope that the US will return to that path, and forever leave the one that Mr. Bush put the world through.

Though in the case of North Korea, I am not all that sure that there is any other option there except for a military one (though certainly South Korea is doing its best to find one). And I am quite sure that China would "not be amused" by any sort of military action there.

I think that eventually, we will win the fight to bring human rights to all - though I think the path is stony and hard, and will take a lot of time.

Of course, I am somewhat biased, as I believe firmly in the goodness in Mankind, as strange as that might sound.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles



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