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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-21-2008 18:22

The last few times I've jumped back into the debates here have led me to a very similar and unhappy conclusion. FWIW, I think this article describes it pretty well. A good friend pointed this out to me other day via twitter.

http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/10/14/there_are_two_irreconcilable_americas

Thoughts?

. . . : : . . Innervating Your Eyes & Mind : . . .

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

posted posted 10-21-2008 20:17

There is the america derived from the states that wanted to leave the union, and the one derived from the states that for some reason didn't want the others to leave.

Opposition to nationalism screws everything up.

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

posted posted 10-21-2008 20:38

Ok first sorry my English sucks at political talk so try to understand... To those who don't know (to avoid any confusion) I'm a left-liberal straight Eastern-European atheist. For the record if anyone thinks non-Americans should keep their opinions to themselves then screw you this bullshit affects me so I have a moral right to communicate my opinions as loudly as I can!

Somehow I can catch a very strong drift that this guy is a republican.

"For the most part, right and left differ in their visions of America and that is why they differ on policies." DOH ... isn't that a point of democracy to have multitude of opinions (so that ideally the best ones may emerge and prevail)?

"The left wants Europe's quasi-pacifism..." - I don't understand what he means by that. "kind of war-opposing"? So the left wants peace. Boo...
"..., cradle-to-grave socialism..." - what does socialism have to do with a person's age. If by socialism he means universal-healthcare, working class and the rich helping the old, the sick etc then absolutely I think that's great.
"..., egalitarianism..." - means equality among all people - yes absolutely.
"...and secularism in America." - (hope he didn't mean racism) - yes absolutely state and religion should be kept 100% separate. Personally I think that people living in la-la land should not have anything to do with leading a major country but that's just me. As a compromise I think that they should at least not mix religion with politics because a) it's unnecessary b) it's dangerous.

"The right wants none of those values to dominate America." - first thing that came to mind: what a bunch of assholes. Second thing that came to mind: what a weird way to say those things. As if he's trying to use bad sounding words to characterize the "left" and then he uses the word "dominate" to cast another dark shadow on those (imo perfectly sound) values.

"The left feels that if people want to be religious, they should do so at home and in their houses of prayer, but never try to inject their religious values into society." - Too vague and generalizing. Will mean one thing to a religious person and something completely different to a non-religious person.

"The right wants America to continue to be what it has always been -- a Judeo-Christian society with a largely secular government (that is not indifferent to religion)." - IMO that's just incorrect. The USA government is one of the most religious western governments in the world. Again IMO.

"These opposing visions explain, for example, their opposite views concerning nondenominational prayer in school." - IMO a very bad bad thing that American kids are not thought about atheism and different religions alike. Even worse that they are force fed one particular religion. School is a place that first and foremost should teach to think. Force feeding one religion is not something that encourages rational thought and reason. - This needs a chapter of it's own but I'll stop here.

"The left prefers to identify as citizens of the world. The left fears nationalism in general (this has been true for the European left since World War I), and since the 1960s, the American left has come to fear American nationalism in particular. On the other side, the right identifies first as citizens of America." - generalized bullshit - no comment

[/i]"The left therefore regards the notion of American exceptionalism as chauvinism; the United Nations and world opinion are regarded as better arbiters of what is good than is America. The right has a low opinion of the U.N.'s moral compass and of world opinion, both of which it sees as having a much poorer record of stopping genocide and other evils than America has."[/i] - Now he just tries to convey he's own personal opinion as something greater.

"The left is ambivalent about and often hostile to overt displays of American patriotism. That is why, for example, one is far more likely to find American flags displayed in Orange County, Calif., on national holidays than in liberal neighborhoods in West Los Angeles, Manhattan or San Francisco." - tries to support a bullshit claim with another bullshit claim.

"The left subscribes to the French Revolution, whose guiding principles were "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity." The right subscribes to the American formula, "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." The French/European notion of equality is not mentioned. The right rejects the French Revolution and does not hold Western Europe as a model. The left does. That alone makes right and left irreconcilable." - ok ... I have no idea about that.

"The left envisions an egalitarian society. The right does not." - already covered earlier.
"The left values equality above other values because it yearns for an America in which all people have similar amounts of material possessions." - is he referring to communism? Really? Socialism doesn't mean equal amount of possessions. At least in modern sense. It means helping those who need help.
"This is what propels the left to advocate laws that would force employers to pay women the same wages they pay men not only for the same job but for "comparable" jobs (as if that is objectively ascertainable)." - humm ... is he serious? - no comment
"The right values equality in opportunity and strongly believes that all people are created equal, but the right values liberty, a man-woman based family and other values above equality." - equality isn't about opposing "man-woman based family" and certainly not about opposing liberty so this sentence makes no sense. Moreover equality is about liberty.

"The left wants a world -- and therefore an America -- devoid of nuclear weapons. The right wants America to have the best nuclear weapons. The right trusts American might more than universal disarmament." - I strongly support global disarmament of nuclear weapons. And if terrorist's nuclear weapons are what you're afraid of then having your own doesn't really help you any.

"The left wants to redefine marriage to include same-sex couples for the first time in history. The right wants gays to have equal rights, but to keep marriage defined as man-woman. This, too, constitutes an irreconcilable divide." - Why add the "first time in history", it's been done elsewhere. World didn't end because of it.

"For these and other reasons, calls for a unity among Americans that transcends left and right are either naive or disingenuous. America will be united only when one of them prevails over the other. The left knows this. Most on the right do not." - I think that unity can be found when the the Government of USA (tm) starts doing some actual work, and starts to think about it's people. All parties need to be heard, all opinions need to be considered and the best compromises need to be found that don't just cater to the rich and the powerful but actually improve the life of ordinary US citizens.

What I think the USA really needs: (not in the order of importance) universal healthcare, serious tax reform (for example I need to log in and press 1 button on the internet to file my "income declaration" and it's done! Can go on with what's more important to me: living.), stop wasting money on fueling pointless civil wars in obscure far-away countries (nice ideals but really not what world needs right now), start respecting civil rights and privacy and stop persecuting ordinary people in the name of the (holy) war against terrorism, science based education and of course the list goes on forever...

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 10-21-2008 22:30

I think it is interesting and telling that Bugs finds the article describing things pretty well

quote:
"FWIW, I think this article describes it pretty well"



I personally think that the author has an agenda, and is carrying it out in print. His word selection and slant is not only obvious, but painfully so.

America does not consist of "two irreconcilable" pieces - rather, it consists of a multitude of pieces, all struggling to co-exist, more or less.

Even in the two major parties (remember, there are actually more than those two), there are many different "factions" or groups, or whatever you wish to call them, label them, etc.

Sounds suspiciously like a right winger blowing his horn because he senses that Obama & the Democrats are going to be not only taking office, but doing it in such a huge majority, that for at least the next 4 years, there is going to be a whole lot of non-right wing stuff coming down the pipe.

And he doesn't like it. Not one bit.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-22-2008 02:09

WS, I have no idea why you are so suspicious of the author because he isn't hiding nor intending to veil anything. Dennis Prager is a JFK liberal who stayed in that mode which meant he had to become a Republican in the 80s and 90s as the Democrat party swung ever leftwards. He is a very reasoned and clear thinker. He's exactly the kind of person we could all have a civil and honest debate with so I beg you to not judge so harshly and so hastily.

In like manner I'm wondering what you mean by "interesting". I have always felt that left and right in this country wanted the same results at the end of the day. But lately I am really thinking that is not the case and what we are actually witnessing is a new form of civil war. Certainly, we're not talking fighting in the streets but I do think there is a war of culture actually underway and it may get uglier over the next few decades before it gets resolved.

Trust me I really hate this possibility but I thought it would be interesting to see what others are sensing.

Arthurio, thanks very much for that reply that was really insightful. I hope to respond more specifically soon.

. . . : : . . Innervating Your Eyes & Mind : . . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 10-22-2008 02:09)

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-22-2008 04:10

Bugs - i've read way too much from Prager to agree with anything in your description of him.

I don't find anything honest about this article, I find it to be a very simple us vs them, with the main tenant being that only religious conservatives know anything about America.

The rest of us, of course, are just immoral godless heathen terrorists (that's paraphrasing in the case of this article. n most it could be a quote).

FWIW

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 10-22-2008 09:36

Bugs, to be blunt - Prager is far from not "hiding nor intending to veil anything" - he has an agenda, and uses print medium to express it.

As I am not the only one to comment on this, I would recommend that you ask yourself why it is that several members here are saying the same thing along these lines.

Second, there is no "civil war" or anything of the kind between the two parties.

That is absolute humbug.

The two major parties have contested and tussled with one another for literally hunderds of years (well, the Democrates have, the Republicans came later). I am sorry, but I just do not see anything that I would call outside of the normal contest for power.

What I do see is a Republican Party in total disarray, struggling to find it's roots, and being really, really scared of what is going to happen when the Democrats not only sweep the Presidency, but also majorities in both the House and the Senate, especially after the Bush years.

What I see, is a very dissatisfied far right, that seems to be trying to alienate the rest of the US by insisting that only "they" are "real" Americans.
Which is absolute rubbish, obviously. This "us vs them" mentality they have been fostering has grown much stronger in recent months, as Obama&Democrats have proved not only resistant to the normal Republican onslaught of Mudslinging, etc, but have surged ahead of McCain in the Polls.

It is called despair, I believe. I distinctly remember one outraged, frightened, and confused Republican at a McCain rally that mewed "How can this be?" in an agonized, disbelieving tone. In fact, I think it actually made it onto YouTube, come to think of it.

The fact is, that we are ALL Americans (in that, I mean the citizens of America - not meaning to offend the rest of the world here ). There is no one group that are "real" Americans, other than perhaps the Native Americans, the original inhabitants of the Continent.

Divide and Conquer is an old strategy - but this time it is not working.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles


(Edited by WebShaman on 10-22-2008 11:57)

JerubBaal
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From: Indiana, USA
Insane since: Oct 2008

posted posted 10-28-2008 23:03

Bugs,

I used to think that the Democrats and Republicans were heading the same way, too. But when I starting seeing some of the issues and ideas being presented by many in the Democrats in recent years, versus the Republicans, I can definitely see where this guy is coming from.

Interesting point, though, is that historically speaking two groups used to exist in America: nationalists and royalists. After the revolution a large portion of those royalists went to Canada or back to Europe. Perhaps they came back?

Ooh, great 18th century parallels here:
-English wanted a government controlled religion, America wanted religious tolerance
-English wanted taxation of the rich colonists (against their will) to aid the poor English, America wanted equal representation and equal taxation of all people
-English were more libral with their treatment of marriage and gender relations, Americans at that time were prudes.
-English had a class system based on nobility and birth, America had one based on hard work, skill, and "giftedness"

Interesting how America broke off from Europe in the late 18th century and then affected the whole world through our declaration. Interesting how there are now people who think that what Europeans do are good for us in America. Seems like those people were always here, the basic opinion of following Europe just took a back seat while America did so well. Now that America is getting made fun of in the global world (by only a few, actually), we have several people tucking tail and running.

Judges 7:1



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