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binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 05:33 Edit Quote

not what u r thinking.....but ever noticed how we as human beings seem to follow certain fixed routines in whatever it is we undertake, for instance
- waking up
- eating
- sleeping
- routes we take to whatever destinations
- recreational activities
- going to the loo (offloading)

hmmm....how diffrent r we from the ant colonies.......for instance zoom out of the current city u r in.....now watch urself as u r performing the various activities of ur day to day...going here, walking there.....but within the same small area following a specific pattern....

An ant doesnt know life outside its colony......

Happy anting.. and try to do somethng totally diffrent today...

~Sig coming soon~

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 07:35 Edit Quote

This reminds of a conscious effort exercise.

My personal favorite example is to wash yourself in a different order the next time you bathe. I've suggested this to several folks and they almost always come back with the same thing: "I washed my hair twice."

Back when I was on the road a lot, lack of conscious effort got the best of me several times. Quite often I would be on the highway heading to a town in particular and end up on the way home. Then I would have to back-track. Familiar roads, familiar routes... my mind would wander - lack of conscious effort.

Take anything this is routine and mix it up. See what happens. Can you still do it? Will that small part of your brain get confused?

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 09:14 Edit Quote

Taking a different route in the morning might not be a very good idea. I'd be lost and late.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 10:21 Edit Quote

Taking a different route in the morning to work would end up making me more stressed - because the way I take is off the beaten path, to avoid the traffic jams.

I absolutely f**king hate traffic jams!

They are narrowly above people-who-think-it-is-fun-to-drive-20-miles-under-the-speed-limit - it is my belief that
twin 30mm Vulcan Chain Gun Cannons were invented soley for this reason.

What?

Oh, we were talking about breaking the pattern, getting out of the rut, confusing the grey matter between the ears (and I don't mean wax here).

Ermmm...yeah.

You all must have too much time on your hands to worry about these types of things.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 10:49 Edit Quote

aaahhh...time was wondering when that would pop-up.....picture the ants they always seem to be very very busy and at times bumping into each other....

I guess few humans would survive without this sense of worth...point is there is always a broader perspective

WS....worried naah thats not the case....

~Sig coming soon~

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 12:11 Edit Quote

Speak for yourself.

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 12:57 Edit Quote

actually, there is some truth to this.
Modern man actually is much less free than most wild animals on this planet, if you consider freedom as 'goes where it wants, when it wants'.
This has been show by al large scale analysis of cell phone data - most people really do the work / pub /home /work shuffle... now if I could only remember the authors...

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 12:59 Edit Quote
quote:
I guess few humans would survive without this sense of worth...point is there is always a broader perspective



Considering how long the human species has managed to survive without that sense of worth, I think this is a rather narrowminded perspective

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 15:16 Edit Quote

I took your advice, and last night, while I was playing Battlefield 2142, I did something random and out of the norm. Unfortunately, as it turns out, you can't stab someone with an assault rifle, or shoot them with a knife, and my score was abysmal.

Certain rules that we trap ourselves with are entirely necessary, intuitive, and sensible. We don't walk in the middle of the motorway, walk off the edge of tall buildings, or keep our heads in the oven while roasting just in case the turkey gets lonely. These are rules we pick up quickly, learn through experience, or know intuitively, and disregard at our dire peril.

As for the daily routine - yes, it is a prison, but one I know sustains many. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard of people who retired, had nothing to do, and died within months or a short few years. Once the routine is gone, it can be bloody hard to find something else to fill your days with.

Somewhere halfway between the two is probably good for the health. Keep a routine, and make time for something different every now and again... or does that make variation part of the routine..?

Yes, we are institutionalised; rendered as executors of our function, and that function defines our daily routine. When there is no routine left, and the uncontrollable vagaries of the daily grind have given way to empty hours, days, and weeks in the restless afterlife (for some, half-life) of retirement, you have only one purpose left-

Find something to fill 600-700 hours a month with, or die for want of it.

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-02-2009 15:20)

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 16:13 Edit Quote

"Find something to fill 600-700 hours a month with, or die for want of it."

I am *so* stealing that quote.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 16:43 Edit Quote



Actually, I have a daily routine that gives me something a little different every day, and often helps me to snap out of a dark mood; I talk to strangers. I receive defensive, terrified or sometimes hostile reactions, but more often than not, I get to meet and chat with someone interesting for a few minutes of an otherwise dull and annoying commute.

More importantly, I make it a goal of every day to make at least one person smile. Believing in the intrinsic logic of Karma, this satisfies more than just my need to flirt.
_____

Haha, WS!

quote:
They are narrowly above people-who-think-it-is-fun-to-drive-20-miles-under-the-speed-limit - it is my belief that twin 30mm Vulcan Chain Gun Cannons were invented soley for this reason.

I get stuck as a passenger around the city (in the work van, on public transport, etc) more often than I care for. My head gradually fills with the sounds of explosive projectiles, chain-gun fire, and an exotic array of anti-vehicle weaponry/machinery. It kills a surprising amount of time... if nothing else.

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-02-2009 16:57)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 16:53 Edit Quote

I play Foos, every day that I can.

And that is always different.

Does that count?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-02-2009 18:53 Edit Quote
quote:

White Hawk said:

I took your advice, and last night, while I was playing Battlefield 2142, I did something random and out of the norm. Unfortunately, as it turns out, you can't stab someone with an assault rifle, or shoot them with a knife, and my score was abysmal.


...This actually describes the real life situation....since most of us are already programmed to perform specific actions.....life would be "abysmal" if they tried to do anythng out of the norm...

quote:

White Hawk said:
Actually, I have a daily routine that gives me something a little different every day, and often helps me to snap out of a dark mood; I talk to strangers. I receive defensive, terrified or sometimes hostile reactions, but more often than not, I get to meet and chat with someone interesting for a few minutes of an otherwise dull and annoying commute.


"strangers"....I am sure if I was to analyse the people u pick out as strangers am sure I will find a pattern in there somewhere.....for instance curved hips...

quote:

WebShaman said:
I play Foos, every day that I can.And that is always different.Does that count?WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.- Sophocles


..let ur PC crush and will c wat options u r left with...

quote:

warjournal said:
This reminds of a conscious effort exercise.My personal favorite example is to wash yourself in a different order the next time you bathe. I've suggested this to several folks and they almost always come back with the same thing: "I washed my hair twice."


..definately trying this out...will start with the feet...

~Sig coming soon~

DavidJCobb
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: United States
Insane since: Mar 2009

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 02:20 Edit Quote

Different from ants? We're self-aware, capable of intelligent thought, capable of learning, our minds function using more than just blind instinct, we're not creepy, we don't cause phobias (mostly), we know what the phrases "personal space" and "this is my room GTFO" mean, and we're very large.

(Is it bad that I tend to respond to complex or thought-provoking threads with the simplest replies possible?)

----------------------

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 04:34 Edit Quote
quote:

DavidJCobb said:

we're not creepy


Since when?

___________________________________________________________________________
“Privatize the Profits - Socialize the Losses.” Randi Rhodes

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 07:49 Edit Quote
quote:

DavidJCobb said:
Different from ants? We're self-aware, capable of intelligent thought, capable of learning, our minds function using more than just blind instinct, we're not creepy, we don't cause phobias (mostly), we know what the phrases "personal space" and "this is my room GTFO" mean, and we're very large


.... I like to bring to you attention that awareness is relative to conscience level of the species......n looking at some of the things we are capable of am no longer sure where we fall.....

~Sig coming soon~

(Edited by binary on 06-03-2009 07:52)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 10:12 Edit Quote

I have to disagree with DavidJCobb on some points:

"Self aware" is subjective - most animals are capable of recognising themselves in a reflection, for instance.

I would argue that a substantial number of individuals (in my city, for instance), whether capable, show little evidence of intelligent thought.

Ants behave like individual neurons in a large brain - they might seem to function on blind instinct, but as a colony, show problem solving abilities that would astound you.

People who fear 'creepy' insects show a distinct lack of conscious control over 'blind instinct', and I think phobias relating to strangers, other people, or open spaces, are fairly numerous. Also, I find lots of people creepy; Gordon Brown is a good example. *shudder*

Personal space is no more respected by busy commuters than within the interior of an industrious ant colony. It wouldn't be practical.

Burglars don't give a damn whose room it is, and in this country, you're risking a prison sentence if you're a little zealous in compelling them to leave.

In fact, as a substantial number of humans can't even queue properly, show no talent for teamwork, refuse to relinquish illogical or irrational beliefs, superstions, or phobias, or behave in a patently unintelligent and inconsiderate manner, I think ants have us beat on standards for a functional society - evidence a-plenty in their continued success.

...and how many humans do you know that can lift several times their own body weight?

We can only aspire to the qualities exemplified by the amazing ant!

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-03-2009 10:14)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 11:06 Edit Quote
quote:
quote:
WebShaman said:
I play Foos, every day that I can.And that is always different.Does that count?WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.- Sophocles


..let ur PC crush and will c wat options u r left with...



Ermmm...you do know what Foos is, don't you?

Foos

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 11:20 Edit Quote

When you said 'Foos', I thought you meant Foosball but wasn't sure. Ah, nothing like a slam to slash the back of your hand. My injuries have been minor, but I've seen some nasty cuts on drunken frat boys.

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 13:23 Edit Quote

^^..me three ...

~Sig coming soon~

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 16:47 Edit Quote

Foos is Foosball - table soccer.

What does that have to do with a "PC Crush"

quote:
Ah, nothing like a slam to slash the back of your hand. My injuries have been minor, but I've seen some nasty cuts on drunken frat boys.





Though I have had some minor muscle pulls in the hand and wrist area from Foos, I have never heard of someone slashing the back of a hand playing Foos before.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 17:08 Edit Quote

Wow, Web. Back of the hand used to happen all the time in my neighborhood. Mostly newbs and drunks, but somewhat common. Opponent would slam the shaft and the opposite end would become dangerous. Gave a whole new meaning to defense when the slap-shot was coming. Of course it didn't help that the ends of the shafts weren't padded or rounded-off. Most of the rinky-dink Foos games I've seen were like this back in the day.

Full-contact Foosball, anyone?

I wonder if I can make a full-contact version of Tangram...?

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 18:16 Edit Quote
quote:

WebShaman said:
Foos is Foosball - table soccer.What does that have to do with a "PC Crush"
quote:


...okey okey easy now...probably where u come from they havent automated it yet....hmmm i can recall playing Foosball in virtual city...

~Sig coming soon~

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 21:26 Edit Quote
quote:
Wow, Web. Back of the hand used to happen all the time in my neighborhood. Mostly newbs and drunks, but somewhat common. Opponent would slam the shaft and the opposite end would become dangerous. Gave a whole new meaning to defense when the slap-shot was coming. Of course it didn't help that the ends of the shafts weren't padded or rounded-off. Most of the rinky-dink Foos games I've seen were like this back in the day.

Full-contact Foosball, anyone?

I wonder if I can make a full-contact version of Tangram...?



Wow, never heard of that before, WJ. Though the ends of rods can be somewhat dangerous (especially to children), I have yet to see anyone injured by them. Are you talking about the really old tables, per chance?

I'm trying to picture how someone could be injured by another player on the other side, and drawing a blank - if one is holding a rod in hand the entire time (which the rules say one is supposed to), I am kind of having trouble seeing how the end of an opposing rod can hit any part of the body, really.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles


(Edited by WebShaman on 06-03-2009 22:25)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 22:17 Edit Quote

I recall drunkenness being mentioned. Anything is possible when you're drunk!

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-03-2009 22:38 Edit Quote
quote:
Anything is possible when you're drunk!



Well, that is true.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

DavidJCobb
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: United States
Insane since: Mar 2009

IP logged posted posted 06-04-2009 03:06 Edit Quote

Self-aware as in "capable of passing the mirror test"; "we don't cause phobias (mostly)"; I'll admit that some people are creepy, but surely not our entire species as a whole -- though I'll admit that my insectophobia might be giving me somewhat of a bias when judging the creepiness of certain species...

As for the comparative analysis (that's the right term, right?), I suppose that in a species that is not entirely ruled by instinct, psychological flaws are inevitable... I think it's partly how we're raised -- often, people grow up with such illogical and irrational beliefs, never given the freedom to decide for themselves what they believe, and eventually not even desiring such freedom and even condemning it.

----------------------

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

IP logged posted posted 06-04-2009 09:41 Edit Quote

No idea how old the tables were, Web. Pretty much happened while switching rods while the hands were too low. Other than that, I guess we can chaulk it up to cultural difference or something. You know, us folks in MI are notorious for violence. With the way our militia is and the occassion rogue, I'm suprised the Boy Scouts here are receiving military training like in Cali (I think Cali?).

David brings up a point:

quote:
often, people grow up with such illogical and irrational beliefs, never given the freedom to decide for themselves what they believe, and eventually not even desiring such freedom and even condemning it



I've had this discussion more than a few times.

Hooker Neice lives with Grandma. According to Grandma, Hooker Neice is free to believe in whatever she wants to when it comes to religion. And yet Grandma takes Hooker Neice to church and Hooker Neice is always going on about going to Hell. Claims of religious freedom, and yet putting massive spin and bias on it.

Also happened here in the Asylum. A parent here was talking about knowingly and blatantly lying to children in order to get them to believe in Jesus.

Go figure.

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-04-2009 11:33 Edit Quote
quote:

warjournal said:
A parent here was talking about knowingly and blatantly lying to children in order to get them to believe in Jesus.Go figure.


...I wld assume the parent in this case was a beliver so...in this care is the parent really lying.......can u lie on somethng u blv in...

~Sig coming soon~

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-04-2009 15:50 Edit Quote

I'm not sure ants have the visual acuity to even 'see' a mirror, but I know dogs easily pass the mirror test (far more often than cats, it seems), and elephants easily pass it. I think the mirror test is a little restrictive, though, as even my fish show distinctly intelligent/curious behaviour from time to time, and have a range of observable personality traits that suggest a level of awareness - one of them has figured out that jumping and striking a specific point on the lid draws attention, and if she's lucky, food. How intelligent do they have to be in order to recognise themselves as disparate individuals? I should think any one of my fish (even the really stupid ones) knows its own reflection, even if they can't blog about it.

I don't think ants go out of their way to cause phobias (or creep people out) any more than people do. Phobias are irrational fears, and can be a fear of even the most harmless things. People are prone to fear a spider that's small, harmless and hairy more than a big, cuddly-looking dog that could quite easily rip their throat out and make a meal of their thigh muscles. Ants aren't creepy in any sense other than that they perceivably 'creep' on six legs (actually, I'd call it a complex sort of sprint, considering the ground they can cover) - the quality of 'being creepy' is an appellation applied by the observer, and wholly a matter of opinion.

As spiders go though (subject of far more widespread phobia than any insect, I'd warrant) I would rather share my bedroom with a couple of harmless British house spiders than see what fills the shadowy little corners when they're not around - in this respect, I think them far more useful than creepy. In this country it is wise to avoid killing spiders, as people who get bitten by outdoor/foreign spiders in the home, or are bothered by insect pests, have usually killed the very spiders that would have kept their numbers down. A species of garden spider from the UK finds indoor environments in the US particularly cosy, especially as common predatory house spiders (that are harmless to humans) haven't crossed the pond with them. They are responsible for quite a few hospitalisation cases every year over there, even though gardeners on this side of the pond rarely encounter them.

Even if Gordon Brown were as useful as a house spider, I would find him no less creepy (every time that insincere, double-speaking, thieving, corrupt and insidious little creep tries to crack a smile, it makes me ill). He only has two legs, and waddles convincingly, but I think him creepier than Creepity McCreep of Creepville, Country Creep, receiving a medal at the Creepville Competitive Creeping event after using a Dr. Brundle teleportation device to ensure he made it to the event on time...

As for the question of indoctrination - I don't think one would be lying if one were to express one's beliefs... but I don't know of any religious organisation that hasn't (or still doesn't) arbitrarily blanket or embellish the truth in order to further its own cause or protect it from scandal. That there are those foolish enough to blindly follow and repeat ensures that lies are perpetuated as truth by those who are unaware of the lie. "The Catholic church isn't infected with institutionalised paedophilia" for instance.

As for the beliefs themselves, who can say how much is lie, truth, misunderstood, misrepresented, or just plain old fantasy? I find it remarkable that thousands of years ago, several different cultures had stories of flying, flaming metal war chariots, weapons of such incredible destruction that the earth was scorched for miles, skies would blacken, and the land would remain lifeless and toxic for many years, or tales of invisible stars that orbited eachother... all before modern science and technology, nukes, telescopes, etc. I wonder of a time when men marvelled at things they had not adequate language or understanding to convey, and what secrets are held in our ancient past...

...but then, it could all just be incredible hogwash. It was written by humans after all...

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-04-2009 16:44)

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-04-2009 18:42 Edit Quote
quote:

White Hawk said:
I'm not sure ants have the visual acuity to even 'see' a mirror,



...I have seen them avoid rain drops....n we know this have mirror effect

quote:

White Hawk said:
Even if Gordon Brown were as useful as a house spider, I would find him no less creepy (every time that insincere, double-speaking, thieving, corrupt and insidious little creep tries to crack a smile, it makes me ill). He only has two legs, and waddles convincingly, but I think him creepier than Creepity McCreep of Creepville, Country Creep, receiving a medal at the Creepville Competitive Creeping event after using a Dr. Brundle teleportation device to ensure he made it to the event on time



.....would I be wrong to assume you dont like him...

~Sig coming soon~

DavidJCobb
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: United States
Insane since: Mar 2009

IP logged posted posted 06-05-2009 04:13 Edit Quote
quote:
I should think any one of my fish (even the really stupid ones) knows its own reflection, even if they can't blog about it.


Siamese fighting fish try to kill their reflections. Fish don't seem to have self-esteem, so I'm pretty sure they simply fail to recognize their own reflection.

quote:
I know dogs easily pass the mirror test (far more often than cats, it seems)


From what I've heard, most dogs fail it. They may act nice to their reflections, but they usually fail to notice that their reflections are reflections.

quote:
I don't think ants go out of their way to cause phobias (or creep people out) any more than people do. Phobias are irrational fears, and can be a fear of even the most harmless things. People are prone to fear a spider that's small, harmless and hairy more than a big, cuddly-looking dog that could quite easily rip their throat out and make a meal of their thigh muscles. Ants aren't creepy in any sense other than that they perceivably 'creep' on six legs (actually, I'd call it a complex sort of sprint, considering the ground they can cover) - the quality of 'being creepy' is an appellation applied by the observer, and wholly a matter of opinion.


As I stated, I have a bias. Interestingly, though, I seem to have overgeneralized the blame -- ants are one of the subjects of my phobia, but I'm fairly certain that it was a tick that caused the phobia in the first place.

quote:
As for the beliefs themselves, who can say how much is lie, truth, misunderstood, misrepresented, or just plain old fantasy? I find it remarkable that thousands of years ago, several different cultures had stories of flying, flaming metal war chariots, weapons of such incredible destruction that the earth was scorched for miles, skies would blacken, and the land would remain lifeless and toxic for many years, or tales of invisible stars that orbited eachother... all before modern science and technology, nukes, telescopes, etc. I wonder of a time when men marvelled at things they had not adequate language or understanding to convey, and what secrets are held in our ancient past...

...but then, it could all just be incredible hogwash. It was written by humans after all...


Some of it could be rooted in observable phenomena -- eclipses, volcanic ash blocking out the sun, plagues, famines. Also, humans have had a historical obsession with fire, so maybe the ancients agree that Fire + Destructive Things = Awesome, if it's on your side.

----------------------

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-05-2009 15:07 Edit Quote
quote:
Fish don't seem to have self-esteem...



My comet is quite full of himself, actually.

I think you are doing dogs a great injustice. They usually show little interest in their own reflections after their initial curiosity or excitement, simply because they have enough intelligence to recognise it as themselves, rather than another dog, threat, or potential shag. Stand behind them so that they can see you in the reflection, and they will show every sign of knowing there aren't suddenly two of you in the room.

The dumbest dog I ever had (an English Bull Terrier - so much character, so little brain) used to watch his arse in the mirror as an aid to chasing his tail. Yes, he was that daft.

An old German Shepherd of ours (RIP, Regal Lord Robert), once his legs were no longer good enough for bouncing up and down the stairs, used to save himself the bother by menacing visitors via the hallway mirrors on their way up the stairs. If you were to approach him from behind, in full view of the mirror, he would look behind him.

Dogs have a distinct intellectual advantage over most other animals in that selective breeding over many generations by humans has given them an almost unparalleled social intellect. A pup of just a few weeks can be shown to possess a greater intellectual ability to understanding 'persistence' (whereby something out of sight is in fact, still in existence) and 'theory of mind' (put yourself in another's shoes) than even a human child of four-five years old!

To be perfectly honest, I feel that most of these tests are out-dated and based upon misconceptions about the nature of animals/intelligence. At one time or another, humans assumed they were alone in such things as experiencing sexual pleasure, using tools, solving problems / learning by example, or being aware of 'self'. By degrees, the certainty of these principles has been eroded so that now we have to accept simple and provable truths such as; elephants are self aware; crows make and use tools; dolphins shag for fun; apes sit and chatter with eachother in large groups; dogs can be taught to retrieve something referred to by its name alone - "fetch the ball", "fetch the squeaky toy", "put the rubber bone in the basket".

Humans vastly underestimate the utility, social, and emotional intelligence of animals even today - a throwback to the religious assertion that we are god's special pets. We're just a few degrees more intelligent than your average balding ape is all.

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

IP logged posted posted 06-05-2009 15:40 Edit Quote

Ah, self-awareness. Coolios.

I vaguely recall an experiment done wtih apes concerning 'awereness of other'. Something about playing a practical joke on someone else and having sympathy. They enjoyed playing jokes on each other and would laugh it up. But when they felt the humility of a being the butt of a prank, they lost their taste for pranking others because they could identity with said humility. They knew what it was like and they didn't want to impose that feeling on other apes.

Something like that. I don't remember exactly.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-05-2009 17:16 Edit Quote
quote:
But when they felt the humility of a being the butt of a prank, they lost their taste for pranking others because they could identity with said humility. They knew what it was like and they didn't want to impose that feeling on other apes.



Hmmm...we must have lost that ability, somewhere along the evolutionary trail...

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 06-08-2009 11:02 Edit Quote

Empathy - another aspect of nature that humans have finally had to accept they do not possess exclusively... or at all, according to WS!

I changed my routine today. Despite it being a Monday, and a morning (I get on with neither, usually), I've been chirpy and cheerful so far.

My colleagues think I'm having a breakdown...

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-08-2009 11:09 Edit Quote

I think that although as individuals we tend to have the ability to Empathize with others (and other things), but as a species, we don't.

It seems to me that as a Species, the Human Race is its own worst enemy.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

binary
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Under the Bridge
Insane since: Nov 2002

IP logged posted posted 06-08-2009 15:44 Edit Quote
quote:

White Hawk said:
My colleagues think I'm having a breakdown...


......This makes me wonder.....could conditions like psychosis, schizophrenia and the rest.....be some advanced states of the mind that the current human beings are yet to comprehend...and label them as such since...the individuals seem to be acting out of the norm....

~Sig coming soon~

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: The Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 06-08-2009 17:17 Edit Quote
quote:

binary said:

quote:White Hawk said:My colleagues think I'm having a breakdown.........This makes me wonder.....could conditions like psychosis, schizophrenia and the rest.....be some advanced states of the mind that the current human beings are yet to comprehend...and label them as such since...the individuals seem to be acting out of the norm....~Sig coming soon~



My People believe that - that those with such conditions have been "touched" by the Gods and therefore are the way they are.

I personally do not know how much of that is factual - perhaps such individuals are truly in some advanced state of mind.

I think that it probably has more to do with chemical imbalances and the physical condition and connections of the Brain, myself.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

DavidJCobb
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From: United States
Insane since: Mar 2009

IP logged posted posted 06-09-2009 00:58 Edit Quote
quote:

binary said:

This makes me wonder.....could conditions like psychosis, schizophrenia and the rest.....be some advanced states of the mind that the current human beings are yet to comprehend...and label them as such since...the individuals seem to be acting out of the norm....~Sig coming soon~



They certainly have altered states... I wouldn't necessarily call them advanced. Paranoid schizophrenia, turning every sensory stimulus into a small chunk of an intricate and incredibly paranoid delusion... I wouldn't call that advanced, wouldn't call that progress.

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