Preserved Topic: Comparison of 3D applications (Page 1 of 1)

This was originally my response to a thread asking 'which 3D app should I use'. Since people are referring to it, I've updated it some, and am now posting it in its own thread.

I've tried to keep my subjective opinions to a minimum, as tastes vary. Most of the ratings are based on features, although the rendering ratings do include something of a qualitative opinion. For the most part, I've tried to use the industry's 'opinion' of the render quality, from magazine reviews, columns, etc.

I'll add more apps as I get time. Even the apps I haven't used personally I can usually rate in this format, since I've read up on most of them. Each time I buy a $200 - $3500 package, I read up on what's out there to make sure I'm not buying the wrong thing

Pro packages

3D Studio Max -
Notes: Max is the market leader in game development, and rapidly gaining market share in motion pictures. It's very forgiving of 'mistakes', letting you change your mind about basic modelling choices, even after the model is half done.
Modeller - top notch. It uses a 'modifier stack'. At any point in the modelling process, you can go back to an earlier point and modify things. For example, you could create a sphere, join it to another object, reshape it, etc, then go back and change the radius of the sphere.
Renderer - very good. Hybrid scanline/raytrace (that means it uses a fast, high quality scanline renderer when it can, and the slower raytracer only where needed). Radiosity and Caustics can only be achieved with other programs (you can use LightScape for Radiosity, or Mental Ray as a complete, motion picture quality renderer).
Animation - top notch. Full trackview that lets you adjust animation keys. You can control things with scripts. You can link animation parameters to other parameters with expressions.

LightWave -
Notes: LightWave is the market leader in TV special effects, primarily due to the fact that it's the cheapest pro package out there (TV shows are always on a budget). Very popular due to top notch image output for a very low price (as far as pro packages go).
Modeller - very good. Lots of features and modelling tools, but you can't go back in a models history and make changes.
Renderer - top notch. Hybrid scanline/raytrace, with Radiosity and Caustics included. 6.5 includes HDRI, which allows a bitmap to illuminate a scene.
Animation - top notch (as of 6.5)

Maya -
Notes: This is the pro package. This is what you can expect to find loaded on your workstation when you get that job at ILM.
Modeller - top notch. Lets you make changes at any point in a model's history, like Max. Most full featured modeller I've seen, and very easy to use, once you get past a fairly steep learning curve.
Renderer - very good. Hybrid scanline/raytrace. Note that professionals normally use RenderMan as a plug in renderer to Maya (RenderMan sells for US$5000). RenderMan is commonly considered to be the best renderer available.
Animation - top notch. Full trackview, expressions, etc. Similar to Max.

Softimage -
Notes: This is the number two package for movie and tv commercial special effects houses (behind Maya). Very nice package.
Modeller - top notch. Lets you make changes at any point in a model's history, like Max and Maya.
Renderer - very good or top notch, depending on the package. The higher priced version includes Mental Ray, which is second only to RenderMan. The cheaper version uses a hybrid scanline/raytrace renderer that is comparable to Max and Maya.
Animation - top notch. Full trackview, expressions, etc.

Rhino -
Notes: Don't try to use this as your only package. You'll have sweet models that look terrible. This is a modeller only. Also note that this is a NURBS modeller. Subdivision surfaces are currently considered a better technology for character/organic modelling, so you'd do better to create people, etc in Maya/SoftImage/Max/LW.
Modeller - excellent NURBS modelling. Fair at character modelling (patch modelling and subdivision surfaces are both better technologies for that).
Renderer - virtually nonexistant. This package was designed to make models for import into other packages.
Animation - nonexistant. Again, you're supposed to model in Rhino, and export to other packages.

Nonprofessional packages

Bryce -
Notes: Bryce has an oddball interface, so learning on it will probably form some bad habits when you go to more industry-standard apps. It's primary intent is to be a nature scene generator. It does very well at making skies, oceans, mountians, etc. Many users have used it for other forms of scenes, though, and it can act as a general purpose renderer. I'd suggest using something else to model with, though.
Modeller - poor. Mainly primitives, no history. You pretty much have to build everything out of spheres, cubes, etc. The exception is the terrain editor, which lets you create mountains out of displacement maps. Again, this is from Bryce's intended purpose of an outdoor scene generator.
Renderer - very good. Pure raytracer (high quality but slooooow).
Animation - adequate. Keyframes only. Difficult to edit keys.

Hash -
Notes: An incredible bargain. This is a very nice character modelling package. It uses patch modelling, which was considered the best character modelling technology before Pixar came up with subdivision surfaces. The popular internet short film 'Killer Bean' was created with this package.
Modeller - top notch patch modeller. Great for characters, pretty good for other organic shapes (cars, etc)..
Renderer - good. Nothing special. Might want to output to another package for rendering.
Animation - very good. Top notch IK for character modelling, and the animation setup is pretty powerful in general.

POV-Ray -
Notes: This is a fun, free package to learn 3D concepts with. You can also use it as a renderer for many cheap modelling packages. If you learn POV-Ray first, you'll understand just what the modeller is doing when you move to a pro package.
Modeller - nonexistant. You have to make your models with scripts. A good way to learn 3D concepts, though.
Renderer - very good. Pure raytracer (high quality but slooooow).
Animation - poor. You have to manually script keyframes, which makes it very difficult to do complex moves smoothly.

Blue Moon Rendering Tools (BMRT) -
Notes: This is a RenderMan compliant renderer. It's freeware, and generates some really top notch images, albeit very slowly. It's often used as a companion to RenderMan in movie special effects, for features that it supports and RenderMan doesn't (i.e. Cuastics, Radiosity).
Modeller - nonexistant. Many modellers can output RenderMan rib files, however, which are BMRT's native format.
Renderer - top notch, but extremely slow. Includes Radiosity, Global Illumination, Cuastics, etc.
Animation - nonexistant. You can animate in your modeller, and render each frame in BMRT, though.

Blender -
Notes: Blender is about as nonstandard an app as I have ever seen (even more so than Bryce). If you learn on this app, you'll probably hate every other app out there because it "doesn't work right" (similar to the way LW users aren't fond of Max and vice versa). It is free, but you'll probably want to buy a book to get past its very non-intuitive interface.
Modeller - fair. It does poly modelling and NURBS, but doesn't have subdivision surfaces. It doesn't support a modifier stack or similar feature.
Renderer - fair. This is odd, because it's feature strong (it supports radiosity and has a sort of hack for global illumination), but the actual renders are not very photo-realistic.
Animation - good. IK is supported, and there are features for exporting to games


If price is no object, I'd recommend Maya with RenderMan. You're looking at US$10000 or more, but you get the same setup that motion picture special effects houses prefer. SoftImage with Mental Ray comes close both in price and quality. Lots of movies have used this combo (including Godzilla, which had a lousy plot but nice effects).

If you don't want to spend quite as much, go with Max if you're more interested in a strong modeller, or Lightwave if image quality is your paramount concern. Both are very good and very popular. I have Max and am planning to buy Lighwave in a few months. Max runs about US$3500, and Lightwave will set you back about US$2500.

If you're going for cheap, Rhino as a modeller and Bryce as a renderer is a popular solution. Rhino also outputs to POV-Ray and *.rib (for BMRT), so you can just buy Rhino and have an adequate starting setup. Hash is cheaper than Rhino, and better at characters, so it makes a good choice for those primarily interested in character modelling/animation.

POV-Ray, Blender, and BMRT are free

Generally, I would agree with your reviews/suggestions.

However, time for me to express my opinion (Not to cause an argument, just showing different sides)

3DSMax WAS the industry leader for game development. Maya however has been taking that over. the Maya SDK has been said by friends of mine (in game development) to be great especially for PSX2 games. It plugs right into the dev kit and makes things a lot easier. I would also like to point out the growing support for Softimage

Good input.

Two corrections, though.

I didn't say Rhino was a 'high-end' app, I said it was a 'pro' app. I was mainly trying to seperate the apps that are actually used in 'the industry' (actually the several industries that use 3D apps - film, TV, games, etc). Rhino I classed as a pro app becuase people are using it to model for real projects. Bryce would be an example of a non-pro app, since studios would not normally use it (studios wanting to simulate landscapes primarily use Worldbuilder, I believe).

"Granted MAX is easier to use, and is the cheaper of the two packages" - actually Max runs about a grand higher than lightwave (retail). It's not necessarily easier to use, either. Depends on the artist, really. It does have a more powerful modeller (Maya, SoftImage, and Max all have high powered modellers, with the ability to modify a model's history, model using expressions, etc), but some people have a hard time getting the hang of the modifier stack. A lot of people like LightWave's ease of point modelling with keyboard shortcuts. For a long while, LightWave was considered to be far easier for character modelling due to MetaNURBs, as well, but now all the major apps have something equivilent.

The journals I read still list Max as the industry leader in 3D modelling for games, by a good margin. The other packages are gaining share (especially Maya Builder), but I'm not sure you're correct when you say Max has already lost the top position. If you have references, of course, I'll concede the point. Note that Maya Builder is a much less full-featured application than SoftImage, Max, or LightWave. It's only really good at game modelling (which is what it was designed for). It is far, far cheaper than the full Maya package, though (Complete or Ultimate).

Good point on Mental Ray being well integrated with SoftImage. I used SoftImage Extreme (for a short while), and was quite pleased with the ability to control the shaders so well. I have Mental Ray for Max, and it doesn't integrate quite as well.

As far as choosing LightWave becuase it's "actually USED for highend projects", LightWave is actually USED for TV special effects. Max is actually USED for 3D game modelling. There's some crossover, of course. Blur uses Max for TV commercial effects, and some game companies use LW for games. I'd still recommend Max for people wanting to get into the 3D field to work on games. I'd recommend LW for people wanting to get into TV special effects. I'd recommend caughing up the cash for Maya (Complete or Ultimate) or SoftImage if you really want to work in a film effects house. Those are just recommendations, though.

It all depends on what you're looking for. All these apps are good for something, or they couldn't sell them for thousands of dollars per CPU.

Free tip, if you want to work at Pixar, learn PRMan (a.k.a. Photorealistic RenderMan)

Pretty much agreed for the most part, though LW's gotten some pretty good movie screen time as well (Supernova was all LW, DD has done some amazing stuff with LW). For someone looking to do film effects work I'd probably recommend LW over spending two or three times as much for Maya or Soft. There's also the reasoning that a lot of guys start doing tv work and then move on to film later. For anyone looking to learn character animation Hash Animation Master is definitely an awesome inexpensive app to learn on, I know of guys who have gigs at ILM, Pixar, etc., from character reels done with Hash (Victor Navone who did the "Alien Song" animation is one). Rhino is more on the pro level for folks looking to do industrial design-type work, though from what I understand there are a few game and effects houses using it. Also, don't forget about Nendo as an amazing subdivision modeler for only $99, gotta love that.

Oh, and from what I understand there's nothing good for PS2 development, it's kinda a development hell no matter what you use Could allow for some catch-up with M$'s supposedly excellent Xbox SDK...

Chris

KAIROSinteractive

[This message has been edited by Fig (edited 04-09-2001).]

Everyone says POV-Ray is "good quality but slow." I'd say it's "slow but good quality."

I would definatally have to agree. Most of what I posted are from my personal experiences and from the word I have gotten from others.

In the end however, It all comes down to this...

I have seen amazing animations come from all programs. It is not the tools you use, but how you use the tools you are given. 95% of being a Media Artist is knowing how to create. To simply blame a programs shortcomings for lack of quality would just proove ones lack of talent.

So in the end, deciding what program to start off with would come down to the following "non-feature" related options::

1.) Who do you know who can help you with this program
2.) How much documentation is their available for this program
3.) Can you afford it
4.) Can your system support it

I am pretty sure that everyone would agree with me on these points. For those of us who went to college, you know that most of the time you didn't have a choice over what program the school used. So you used what you were given and made the best of it. (this could be why I have grown to dislike 3DS Max so much over the years).

Thats just my 2 cents at least...

--now inc

www.now-incorporated.com

One caveat, though.

If you're picking a program to learn in hopes of getting a job, you don't want to totally ignore features. Suppose you learn Hash and nothing else. You make a fabulous demo reel, and get a job at a production house. They set you right to work doing character modelling, but they require all characters to be modelled with subdivision surfaces. Since you only know how to model with patches (since that's all that Hash uses), you have to 'cram' to learn the techniques of character modelling with subdivision surfaces.

So I'd add:

5 - does it teach you all the techniques you want to learn.

Naturally, you could mix and match. Instead of using a full-featured program, you could learn different techniques from different apps (NURBS from Rhino, patches from Hash, etc). You'd still get a good skillset that way. You could also learn how to integrate models done in different apps, a valuable skill in itself.

Obviously, if you're planning to freelance, or if 3D is just a hobby, you can use whatever you want

From personal experience....usually a company puts you thru a "Pipeline" when they hire you. In this time they teach you how to use the tools they give you. Not all companies do this however (only fairly large ones do it now a days), so yes...I would agree.

--now inc

www.now-incorporated.com

Ok, sounds great! now can you tell me the difference between NURBS, Subdivision, and Patches? It sounds to me like different ways of modeling objects, is that right?

-D

Each one is defeinatally a different modeling process...

Nurbs consists mostly of drawing a series of Curves, and then "lofting" them to make a final surface.

Closely related to Nurbs are patches. Patches consist of you starting with a "square" (The best i can describe it), and then by pushing and pulling points to make it take shape. (much more work is involved..but thats just a basic description).

Sub-Devision (my personal favorite) is esentially box modeling, with a high res model "Baked" underneat so you can see the final result in real time.

I know these descriptions are vauge..but it is kind of difficult to explain what each one is. It is almost like asking an artist how to draw, but only with words and no visual aids.

--now inc

www.now-incorporated.com

thank-you for your update.. i've heard the names of those programs bandied about and never could get a clear answer on the differences, strengths and weaknesses of them..

Well, looks like their's a lot of people in the know posting to this topic, so I'm gonna throw in a question of my own on the subject.

What would be the best 3D app for say, a Hobbiest??

Let me explain a but further......

If you're a Computer Gamer, and you want to get the best video card for the games you play, and you have plenty of money to burn, they you would surely go out and get a GeForce 3 (not intending to start a 'best video car war')

But, if you were a Computer Games with a shitty office job, and not much money to burn, then you'd go out and get a GeForce 2 MX Video Card. (again, not intending to start a 'best video car war')

So, what I want to know is, what?s the equivalent of a GeForce 2 MX in the 3D App world? What will give you the biggest Bang of the smallest ammount of Bucks.

This question may also requir multiple answers, as I which to know which would be the better but for:
1) Moddeling, Still Imagery
2) Actual 3D Animation

Thanks in advance for your help with my question!!!

Dracusis

Kind of need a price point to make serious recommendations.

As just a blind recommendation for an app with good modelling, animation, and stills, I'd have to recommend Inspire 3D. It's LightWave light, so to speak. A whole crapload of bang for the buck.

DVDirect has it for $440

The link above also has links to a image gallery. Inspire does much of what LightWave does, excepting the most advanced features. It shares the same interface and the tools work the same. There's also an upgrade path, so you can get a discount on LightWave later, if you like.

You are going to have to get much more specific to get a good answer here. Every 3D card has an advantage, and some cards are optimized for certain apps. I personally use a Elsa Gloria III. but that is because I am a computer/Media artist. As a hobbiest, I have heard good things from a Geforce 2 GTS...its a relativly cheap card that gives most 3d apps some extra power that some other card dont seem to provide (compairing it to equally leveled cards of course)

The only helpfull suggestion I can give you is that when you finally decide on the app you want to use, go to their web page. Most of the companies have "Approved Hardware" lists that tell you what cards perform well on their program.

--now inc

www.now-incorporated.com

Well, it all really depends, I'd like to spend as little as possible. How about if I give you some price ranges..

1) FREE!
2) 100 to 200
3) 200 to 500
4) 500 to 1000

Don't think I'll ever spend more than $1000 On a hobby.....

Thanks DAS.

Dracusis

p.s. NowInc, I was't actualy refering to the best Video Card for 3D App's I was just using this as a metophore, should have used car's instead....

1) FREE!
POV-Ray, BMRT, or Blender. Since we're talking free here, I'd say try them all and stick with what you like. POV-Ray is very cool, but it's a bit difficult to make complex objects. BMRT isn't nearly as easy to use, but has more rendering features (Radiosity, cuastics, etc).

The penalty for both of these is the extreme slowness of the renders. As a test, I made a simple scene of several primitives and rendered it in Max in about 5 seconds (at 640x480). The same scene (pretty much, I duplicated it by eye) took over a minute in POV-Ray. Raytracers are slow. While slow renders don't sound like a big deal, you waste a ton of time on test renders (where you keep re-rendering something with small changes until it's just right).

2) 100 to 200
Probably Bryce. It's not a full featured package, but it's only $192 at DVDirect. It's also a raytracer, so you take the speed hit.

3) 200 to 500
Inspire 3D, as I described above. $440 at DVDirect. A full featured package, and a helluva deal. Fast renders (I assume - it's supposed to be the same renderer as Lightwave, with some features removed), high quality, full-featured modeller, etc.

4) 500 to 1000
Well, you could get TrueSpace 5, for about $790, but I don't think it's really worth that much more than Inspire. I'd suggest saving $350 and getting Inspire instead. That's partially my personal dislike for Truespace, though, so take it with a grain of salt. I haven't used TrueSpace since version 3, and I understand it's been through some pretty major upgrades.

I'd strongly suggest checking the websites of the various packages before deciding. Many of the packages offer demos, too.

You could also take a course at a community college, and get one of the packages on student discount. A guy at work got Rhino for $150 (instead of $750) that way. The top end packages have all sorts of restrictions and time-locks to make it not worth the trouble, but cheaper ones often just give you the full software for a fraction of the normal price.

Also, depending on what you are wanting to do in 3D, you might want to try Hash. www.hash.com
It's $299 and I've seen some realy impressive stuff made with it. It's mostly geared for character animation but it's a hell of a package at $300.

I agree with all of Das' recommendations/comments. Especially the student discount. If you are a student you can get some amazing deals.

If you're looking to try out a really nice modeler for free, check out nendo at www.nichimen.com/nendo/
They have a demo and some tutorials to help you out.

-Electro www.badsun.com

(edit: Doh! how did I miss your listing of Hash? jeebus, maybe I need some sleep. Oh well, might as well keep my comment about it


[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 04-15-2001).]

After reading the first paragraph of Das' post, 2 posts up, I'd like to give a real quick defense of POV-Ray, since I love it so much =) :

POV-Ray also supports radiosity and caustics. The next version will include what are called "photons", which are basically an alternative to caustics, and create next to perfect patterns of light when there's refraction (like with a glass of water).

Also, in response to the slow "test rendering", POV-Ray has two features that help speed that up: one, you can render only part of an image (shift-click and drag on the viewing window to select a region to render in the next render), and there is also a "mosaic preview", where it renders large boxes and then gets more detail in afterwards.

heh, I like POV-Ray. =) Of course, it is slow, there's no denying it, but if you push it you can do some cool things. (Remember my 24 second Slime animation? *that* was cool, at least I thought so.) =)

Sorry I missed that, Slime. I didn't know they had added radiosity and caustics. It sounds like it would be the leader over BMRT then, for general rendering.

Btw, Bryce also has 'cheats' to help in test rendering. Very similar to POV-Ray, you can render a region, and you can do 'progressive' renders (where it starts blocky and gets better).

Electro - yeah, I was going to mention Hash again, and even had a line partially typed, but it got lost in the editing :/

Hay wow, thank's for your input guys. I think I'll spend a couple of months trying out demo's and stuff before I but anything, but I seem to remember someone mentioning Satara 3D?? as a free 3D app... I don't know if I spelt it correctly, but does anyone know anything about this one?? Thanks again guy's... you've all been a great help...

Last time I checked...Strata 3D (which once charged for the software) had become freeware. Its not a program I am too familiar with, but I have seen some pretty nice things come from it.

--now inc

www.now-incorporated.com

Another option, check your local book store for 3D magazines with CD's included. I saw some awhile ago that had full, free versions of Bryce, Truespace, and some other older 3D packages. Not the latest versions but one or 2 behind. These were UK mags so the prices were a little steep ($14) for a mag, but great if it's the software you want.


-Electro

I mentioned this somewhere else but if you'd really like to try something nice out go to the alias/wavefront site and sign up for the A Taste of Maya 30-day trial use CD. Comes with some tutorials as well. This is the basic version so a couple of things aren't included but you'll get a look at one of the top programs out there. And if you're a student they have student versions which basically mean that you get the full program for cheap(relatively speaking of course), just can't use it for commercial purposes.


Darkon the Incandescent

The student version of Maya is time-locked. Maya Complete runs $800, while Maya Unlimited runs $1500 (at JourneyEd). This is a extreme discount, but the software only works for 1 year from purchase OR 3 months after you graduate, whichever comes earliest. Hardly worth it, imo.

There's also fair hassle to get the software. This is from the JourneyEd site:

<I>Alias

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Das and say to go with LW or Max if you're looking to get a full version of a higher end app. BTW, any of your guys in school might check around and see what some of the computer labs have available. If you've got free access to Max, LW, etc. it might be something you'd want to play with for a few nights to see what you think of the flow of the package as each has a distinctly different feel. Just a thought.

Also, on pricing for inspire and other packages do a bit of shopping, I use CNET's shopper.com to check software prices before I buy anything, I found Inspire for under $400 for anyone who's shopping around. That, BTW, is my personal pick for budget package to learn on, and I'd go with Hash for anyone with a strong interest in character animation, and nendo for subdivision model playing (which is what's piquing my interest at the moment )

Chris

KAIROSinteractive