Topic awaiting preservation: Newbie...

OK, maybe it wasn't a good idea to wander into this realm yet, but curiousity kinda led me here. I'm basically a complete newbie to Server-Side-Scripting, and practically have absolutely NO knowledge of what kind of powerful things it can do. I'm still in the midst of learning JavaScript, but was thinking about how Server-Side Scripting can change stuffs. Can you basically do EVERYTHING that JavaScript can do using Server-Side Scripting? Also, what's a good place to start at? I'm more or less comfortable with HTML and C (not C++).. Any chance of me getting my hands dirty with PHP (since I heard it's one of the best Server-Side Scripting around)? Or should I just give up right this moment (I hope not..)? All comments/prejudices against newbies are appreciated (I think..)

Also, I was wondering, what program do you all use for editing material (html, jscript, etc. etc.)? Notepad? Emacs? Or am I missing out on some wonderous program that does basically everything?

Obviously the best place to start is with HTML, you need to master HTML. Next I reccommend that you learn CSS, it is also a near nessesity. Follow that up with some learning of JavaScript, it is a very easy medium to learn the basics of programming.

Once you learn these basics, then I would sugest that you move on to server side scripting.

Server side scripting however, does not do most things that JavaScript does.

JavaScript is a client side language, used for manipulating objects on the clients side, such as dynamic movement and updating of the browser.

Server Side Scripting is used to manipulate things on the server side, such as pulling in content or templates from a database or flat text file, gathering and storing information then returning it. They are completely different places in the spectrum.

Now you say that you know C, which is a functional language. I think that learning javascript would still be a good place to start since it is Object orriented.

Next, I can not say that PHP is the best language. I can say that PHP is pretty easy to learn language. Perl is another option. I say learn PHP first them migrate to Perl, spending a lot of time on regular expressions.

I say learn javascript because you only need a web browser to test your scripts. While in order to do server side scripting you would need to have a server that supports your languages. I find it easy to download foxserve from www.fox-hunt.net which is a pretty easy server installation. Or you can do cheap web hosting for as low as $5 per month and get all the stuff through that.

I pay $100 total for the first year of hosting and domain name registration, and then only $70 each year after that. But I also have a server on my computer for much faster testing of scripts, where you get to skip the entire upload process.

It is not an easy venture, and in the beginning you will run into a bunch of problems, everyone does. It is a different way of doing things. But once you know it, you will be able to do it time after time.

Good luck with whatever you decide,

Hi, don't give up just yet, where there is a will, there is potential

There is some fundamental differences between client-side-scripting (ex javascript) called CS below & server-side-scripting (php, asp, jsp, coldfusion and more), called SS below.

1. SS all happens on the server before the browser sees any code at all, you can detect things from the browser as the page is requested, mainly through the browsers own identification or via the url. Then you can create the code that the browser will see "on the fly" before it is sent to the browser.
SS gives you the possibillity to interact with databases, files, executables and whatnot on the server in the process of creating the page for the browser. What is sent from SS to the browser is more or less plain HTML, CSS, JavaScript, the same stuff as in regular static HTML-pages.
SS-created pages cannot (as far as I know) change content/layout and similar in itself without a reload of the page so new conditions can be met, thus creating a new set of code for the browser.
For this you need to use CS.

2. CS all happens in the browser without reloads, within the code that is delivered from the server.
You normally use JavaScript to manipulate the objects and elements on the page in combination with CSS to do this. You can also use for example VBScript if you want to limit functionality to IE-browsers.

The key here as I see it, is that to be able to mainipulate stuff through javascript effectivley, the browser has to have all the things you want to work with from the start. So, if you want to change content without reloading the page, you have to have that content stowed away somewhere to be shown as certain conditions on the client are met.
Example: Create several layers with text, hide all but the first using CSS, then use javascript to change what layer should be visible on click on a link. That way you will dynamically change content without reloading the page (the page will take longer to load though, more code). Same with image swapping on mouseover on a link, you get much better performance if you make sure that the page has the "hidden" image before you need to use it.

That's more or less the basics. The serverSide creates HTML, JavaScript, CSS. The browser uses HTML, JavaScript, CSS.
I'd say if you feel at home with HTML and C, you probably have a good foundation for starting with PHP since that has a C-based syntax, just as JavaScript.
Try php4dev, there you can get a complete setup of apache, php, perl, mysql, mysql-front, phpmyadmin to install on your machine for local testing/developing, it's a breeze to install and use.

Then drop over to http://www.php.net/ for documentation on php.
You'll get started fast with this.

Good luck and have fun!
/Dan




-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

Arrgh, you beat me to the post WarMage!
And we say just about the same thing... But, don't shy away from serverside scripting just because you're not fluent in javascript... there is a lot of easy stuff on the serverside that will make life easier for you. Start there, then get into the more advanced stuff as you feel comfortable.

Beeing good at HTML is however more or less nessecarry since you will more often than not write portions of the HTML inside scripts, and it has to fit in with all the rest...
/Dan


-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

Also in terms of editors a lot around here are partial to Max's HTML Beauty. (Don't know the link, Max?) I'm partial to UltraEdit on Windows and vi for my Linux editing.



:[ Computers let you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. ]:

Thanks everyone Yeah, I guess I got to start off by learning some CS Scripting.. After that, off to SS I really appreciate all your feedbacks tho Thanks again!

Here's a link to MAX's HTML Beauty++ ME: http://www.maxworld.co.yu/htmlbeauty/

I just wanted to add that if you use a Macintosh, BBEdit is the best text editor (Built-in FTP, Regular Expressions, Syntax coloring for everything, indentation management, Dreamweaver integration, etc.)

Also, since you have experience with C, I think PHP will be very easy for you to learn. Javascript is always good, but it can have frustrating variations across browsers, and doesn't follow object-oriented principles very strongly. If you are serious about your OOP, regular Java will teach you the strictest form.

I would agree that you must know HTML solidly before delving into a lot of programming, if for no other reason than you have to know what the output SHOULD look like before you mess around with code. That said, I don't really see the order of how you learn the different technologies as that important (CSS, Javascript, PHP). What's really important is that you understand what each one should be used for and use the right tool for the right job. Anyway, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun with it if you are a true geek like me Good luck.

-jiblet

PS. Damn max, your mother/sister sig is so disturbing that I choked on my pop tart. Good job.

[This message has been edited by jiblet (edited 10-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by jiblet (edited 10-29-2001).]

The only addition I would make to this conversation is that I use NoteTab Pro, which is a seemingly simple (and therefore cheap) replacement for Notepad. It does, however, offer its own scripting language which lets you automate your development tasks. I don't even use that much at all because Notetab also lets you run Perl scripts as functions of the IDE (I use that term loosely). The only thing the editor doesn't have right now is syntax highlighting, which I've been told is coming in the next release.

I guess I will add that you should stay away from Visual Basic. Having used it for a few years now, I can safely say that you're better off with Java, PHP, or Perl (which is my personal favorite).