Topic: The 51st State

I've been living here in the US for almost two years now. I can tell: Israel is the 51st State of the USA. There is nothing that Israel can do that the USA will not agree, or, if it disagree, it's just to try to fool people because in reality, their politicians agree.

Israel killed the Hamas leader. United Nations tried to make a resolution condemning the assassination but USA has used their power of veto and didn't allow the resolution.

It's always like this. Always. Israel can do whatever it wants because Israel IS the 51st state of USA, and probably more important, to the politicians here, then California, New York and Texas.

I personally don't care about the problems between Israel and Palestinian people. I don't care what USA thinks. What I care is to see such an hypocritical country, as USA, that says one thing but acts the other way, that says that there is a war of terror and that the World should join to fight terror when this terror was caused by them, no one else.

So the hell with this!! USA made this, Israel is a creation of USA (don't try to convince me that this is not true), so USA must take care of it alone, if they want. I pity Spain for backing USA in Iraq and now has 200 dead people because of this.

Before coming to live here for two years, I though that living here forever would be great - if possible. Now, I can't wait the time when I'm going back to my country. USA is too much hypocritical. It's a pity because otherwise, this would be a great country as I always thought it were.

I think Puerto Rico is closest to becoming 51st state of USA...

and don't blame USA man...its not the country, its bald middle aged bastards that control the whole damn world...

hypocrites are everywhere, even in your country...

Viol, theres no time like the present to leave. You'll be missed.

In the meantime I'll move this thread over to the Philosophy and Other Silliness forum.

Jestah

Ruski, you're damn right.
The difference is that in the USA the power of the Jews is so blatant that it's impossible not to notice.

Yep.

The US is the one and only hypocritical nation. We're all jews, and we all agree with everything any jew does. We're the ones who set up Israel. Nobody else had anything to do with it.

We are the big evil and the rest of the world (except israel) is innocent, peaceful, and happy like a disney movie ending.

The US is also the only nation to ever use it's UN veto power. Yeha...nobody else has ever used it, and no other nation has ever tried to push their own political aganda's through the UN.

Yup.

You nailed it pal.



(now, on the other hand, if you'd like to learn a little bit about what you are talking about....that might help a little......)

DL, I don't want to learn more. The more I learn, the more annoyed I get with the way the Jews are, act and live for.

Here in Harvard you should know, specially if you are a Jew, that this is _the_ University where you can find more Jews around, proportionally speaking (it may be a coincidence that this is because this is _the_ University, the best one, or one of the best). Individually speaking, they are fine, they are good people, I have a Jewish friend, we already discussed a lot about Israel creation and other related stuff. But when I think not individually, I really don't like what they are and how they act.

So is this an anti-semite thread or an anti-USA thread?

Ramasax

Well here is a message from a bald middle aged Jew who hasn't had time to make it over to Harvard to annoy you:

The actions of Israel are that of a country, not of a religion/race of people. I had assumed that anyone at Harvard would be bright enough to be able to figure that out.Maybe this just doesn't hold true for students from south american countries.

It sounds to me like it is time for you to head home to your non-hypocritical country. If you move fast enough, the door won't hit you in the ass as you leave....

quote:

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I don't want to learn more

---

Well...then....plant the bullet right now =)

There's nothing more that can be said after such ignorance.

Yeah yeah yeah, talk to Jews what they don't want to hear, and get their anger, they will start telling you that you are ignorant, blah blah.
I was expecting that. It's part of the way Jews are. You just can't tell what you think, if you think is different from what they think.

quote:

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So is this an anti-semite thread or an anti-USA thread?

---

Is there a difference?

The problem is: seven million people here, in the US, Jews, decide the fate of a country made of 300 million people. I am exagerating, but roughly this is how I see it.

anger?

I don't see any anger. Except yours.

I am not jewish, by religion or bloodline, so I don't know what you refer to with that statement in the first place.

You can speak all you want about things I don't agree with. But know what the hell you are talking about when you attempt to address such an issue.

quote:

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seven million people here, in the US, Jews, decide the fate of a country made of 300 million people

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Again, you prove you obviously have no clue at all what you are even trying to talk about.....of course I have no clue at all what you are evern trying to talk about either....

quote:

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I am not jewish ... ... I have no clue at all what you are evern trying to talk about either

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That's exactly the problem...

quote:

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I was expecting that. It's part of the way Jews are.

---

Ohhhhh, so we're playing the stereotype game are we?

Well, you know why the US sucks so bad, because all you damn South Americans keep shipping cocaine and coffee up here to feed our already overinflated egos. Damn south americans. Why don't you keep your drugs to yourselves? Soccer playing drug pushers!

Doesn't that sound stupid? You don't like Jewish people because they get angry when you insult them? Funny how that works isn't it?

Oh and BTW

quote:

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I pity Spain for backing USA in Iraq and now has 200 dead people because of this

---

I pity you for your way of thinking. Spain was attacked by terrorists. Remember them? The same people that fly planes into buildings? Bombed those same buildings in 1993, attacked the USS Cole, Khobar Towers, 1998 Embassy Attacks in Kenya, should I go on?

And guess what, it was going on long before we invaded Iraq, or Afghanistan for that matter. I guess they hold no blame and it is so much easier to blame the big bad USA. You are looking for a patsy rather than placing the blame on those who commited the crime.

Yeah yeah, we are just as bad, I know, I've heard it all before. No other country has ever made any mistakes.

I guess if we just leave them alone they would do the same right?

That seems to be what you are saying, or should we have negotiated? No no, don't even bother responding, I can pretty much guess the content of that response anyway.

Viol, rather then complain about our country, why don't you just return to whatever utopia you originated from?

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Don't worry, folks, soon I will return.
I will miss the good prices here though...

So, if I believe that Israel was a creation of the USA, mostly, and that they are like brothers, am I insulting the Jews?

If I have a thinking that's way different from what the Jews think, am I insulting them?

Do you know what this is? Brainwash. You want me to think like you, to believe that everything you do is for the good of the world, that you are the sheriff, the good guy. If I don't, I will be called ignorant, insolent, invited to just get out and leave.

You really don't care about what I know and what I think, you just care that I do not agree with you. This is pathetic.

A little of "other side's opinion", not totally unrelated to the discussion here.
http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/98/387/12337_dictatorship.html

[This message has been edited by viol (edited 03-26-2004).]

DL-44:
I believe the anger being referred to is mine. This is obviously one of those threads intended to provoke anger and I took the bait. So I might as well continue....


viol:

Angry? Yes, I have to admit that overtly prejudiced assholes tend to tick me off. Especially when they are a guest in a country and don't have the manners to act like one.

You must be intelligent, or you wouldn't be in Harvard. So that rules out the stupidity as the reason you are spouting 'The Jews are ruling the world, and oppressing the rest of us'. Since stupidity has been ruled out, I'm willing to wager that you are trying to fulfill some sort of need to be a victim.

Yes, that must be it. You have been victimized by Americans and Jews. Not only you, but the whole world. And the plot thickens....Since the Jews already control America, the next logical step is complete World Domination. But of course that means we have to eliminate those few brave and intelligent protectors of world freedom, like viol.

First we will have to tap his phone and monitor his email. Then, of course we need to assign agents to follow him in the street, his every move...no his every thought, will be recorded until we find just the right time to...

Damn, this is to much fun. I had better stop, at least until I get the latest results from the agents monitoring viol's email.

You know, norm, when I started this thread, because I was pissed off with US for always backing Israel positions and giving stupid reasons to explain why, I knew that I'd be the next target, my life would be in danger, Mossad would be right next my door, Echelon tracing all my electronic messages.

But then I remembered that I am nobody, so, I am not interesting to the power ones. My opinions don't matter.
So, I put this very opinion of mine here without fear.



[This message has been edited by viol (edited 03-26-2004).]

The strong right arm rules.

End of story.

What a croc of shit,

First off lets get things right, the state of israel was not created by america, actually us british created it...

I lived in israel for quite a long time in the 1980's, and i have never been to a more warm and friendly country. It has many problems I agree, I dont like some of the things that they are doing, they are in a situation that england found itself not so long ago with the "Troubles" in northern ireland. Its a vicious circle, violence begetting more violence..

untill the leaders of both of the sides (Palestinians and the israelies) because not all israeli's are jewish...(another fact you seem ignorant of) step back and start talking then this will just continue onwards..

On one side you have the palestinians the majority of wich just want to live a peaceful life, but a minority have sworn to not to rest untill every last jew and the state of israel have been wiped of the face of the earth (sound familiar, "the final solution remember")

on the other side you have a people who were basically dumped there and have had to fight for everything ever since then, and again the majority just wants peace.

and then you say that america causes the terror? damn where the fuck did you get that from?


Lets just play a hypothetical situation here, if your country was deep in the shit, and it needed help fast, i guess you wouldnt want the americans to help you in anyway?? afer all you would want to become the 52/53/100th state of america now would you??

and this one goes to norm,

"Next year in jerusalem" i think i got that right, something i learned when i was in israel, and it has a reall nice meaning when you understand it.

As I said Viol -

it's not your opinion that is problematic.

It is your pure and blatant ignorance of the facts at hand, and it is your gross generalization of not one, but two entire nations of people.

Technically Israel was a UN creation. The British were the occupiers of Palestine at the time, and pleaded with the UN to do something about the unrest in the area.

Israel was the result.

Viol, I couldn't care less what your opinion of the US or the Jews is.

But do yourself two big favors

1) educate yourself - you don't know what you are talking about.

2) don't try to play the martyr now because people are telling you how ignorant you are.

Norm - if there was anger in your post, I certainly didn't feel it. Personally, I feel bewilderment and a bit of pity.

You lot could argue all day about America's involvement in other nations' affairs.. I have one suggestion though: Avoid using sarcasm so much - it doesn't seem to help intellegent discussion.

on a side:

I was called by a telemarketer last night, and I was bored, so agreed to go through their questions. Here's a sample:

------------

1) Do you feel your life is now greatly at risk by a terrorist attack? (multiple-choice: strongly agree, strongly disagree, and various shades of grey in between)

2) Do you avoid..

a) the London underground
b) the Manchester Trafford Centre
c) the Eden Project in Devon
d) 4 or 5 others I have forgotton

.. because of the current risk of terrorism?

------------

I don't think that this is healthy at all.. obviously someone somewhere has *identified* where Terrorists will strike the UK.. and asked a marketing company to find out if people are scared to go there - well; I wasn't before, but might be now I've heard them listed.

I travel most weeks with my work. I flew into Paris last week and as I boarded the train I read in the paper that their rail network in Paris had been directly threatened with Terrorist action. I'm flying long-haul next week. People ask me if I'm not scared of using flights/trains in threatened areas.. and I answer "no".. I refuse to allow a faceless threat to change how I live or move around. Once we stop living our normal lives because of the "threat of terrorism" - the terrorist is surely winning.

-------------

3) Have you changed your routine in order to avoid terrorist threat

-------------

As for the Israel/US thing.. or the Palestine/US thing - whichever way you look at it.. I'm not really enough-in-the-know to comment - so I won't - neither for nor against. I recommend others adopt the same policy.. especially those whose responses are fuelled only by naiive nationalism.

The world is fucked up now.. I think that by trying to make things better we often fail and make things worse.. but WE (internationally) do have to try our best - at least as long as people continue to die OFF the warfield.

Apologies for the long rant. (not bad for someone who just said they don't want to comment on the Topic!!)

Pete

Viol, from your posts you can pretty much concider yourself a racist =)

quote:

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"I personally don't care about the problems between Israel and Palestinian people. I don't care what USA thinks."

"DL, I don't want to learn more. The more I learn, the more annoyed I get with the way the Jews are, act and live for."

"Yeah yeah yeah, talk to Jews what they don't want to hear, and get their anger, they will start telling you that you are ignorant, blah blah.
I was expecting that. It's part of the way Jews are. You just can't tell what you think, if you think is different from what they think."

---

I say this with a heavy heart. viol, your views are VILE.

:::tao:::

quote:

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I recommend others adopt the same policy.. especially those whose responses are fuelled only by naiive nationalism.

---

Please feel free to point out those comments that fueled by naive nationalism.....I am at a loss to find any.

As for the sarcasm not helping "intelligent conversation"
If there had been anything intelligent in the start of this thread, you would have a point. Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation with a person who tells you that, despite their ignorance of a situation, they don't want to learn anything about what they are trying to spout off about?

(no, you can't).

viol,
I think you have some valid concerns. Unfortunately, you're letting those concerns get emotional. You're not dealing with the issues logically. You're expressing yourself (rightly or otherwise) as a neo-nazi fuck.

There are some serious problems in Israel right now.
There are some serious problems in the occupied territories right now.

Israel's elected officials are not doing a damn thing to make things better. Most of their speech and actions are filled with hatred and ignorance. They are, for the most part, not acting responsibly.

The Palestinian leaders (elected and otherwise) are, for the most part, acting like jack-asses. A lot of their speech is hate-filled. A lot of their actions are irresponsible. Besides that, they are completely ignorant of the forces at work and are not doing 'their people' service at all.

The US elected officials are acting horribly irresponsible. There is no commitment for a lasting peace that is acceptable to both sides. Most are content with this bloody 'stalemate' (so aptly put by the criminal Kissinger). The rest are too cowardly or lazy (or both) to actually learn about what is going on.

All of that being said...
Coming in here and spewing ignorant, anti-jewish, hateful speech does nothing to solve the problem. It does accomplish a few things, though:
1) It makes you look like a bumbling fool
2) It polarizes the rhetoric
3) It inhibits useful debate

So...if, like most of the people in the US, you are trying to just let this 'stalemate' go on and on, continue upon your present course of action. Inflaming passions and yelling out worthless, denegrating slurs painting all members of some race or another in broad, overreaching strokes only allows things to continue -- business as usual.

In fact, now that I think of it, it seems this whole 'American' thing has worn off on you quite well. Don't try to fight it. It's hopeless. Give in, turn off your brain, scream about some global conspiracy or another. You're doing just fine...

Welcome to America

Viol - (you're probably not even reading this thread anymore...) in the past, you have made some reasonably intelligent and sometimes useful contributions to this forum. When you started this thread, your comments appear to have been made out of anger and frustration. Never the best way to start a thread here. Surely, as long as you've been around, you know that, right? Come on man - use your head! The US, whatever it's internal problems, is not really the facist ditatorship you are depicting it as being. And blatent racisim is never the answer.

The Middle East has been a boiling pot of tension and hatred ever since the Babylonians conquered Judea and cast the Jews out of their homeland, in what is not fondly remembered as the Diaspora. The US didn't exist then. Even the Romans couldn't entirely subdue the area - and they managed to subdue darn near the rest of the known world at the time! As has been said above, until the leaders of both parties decide to compromise and resolve their differences in an intelligent, non-violent manner - there will continue to be trouble in that area of the world.

The US just happens to have interests in a lot of places in the world - not just in Israel. That, and we have Mr. Bush in the Presidential Office right now, which isn't helping a thing - I don't care what the conservatives among us think about him. But, given the many different governments in the world, and the limitations that come with citizenship elsewhere other than the US, I'm quite happy right here. Regardless of our international policies.

Racism is WRONG. I am appalled, in this day and age, after the Holocaust in the WWII, that anyone, anywhere, can feel justified in making blanket statements about an entire race.

*much head shaking


I am embarrassed for you man. I hope you understand the mistake you've made here.


[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 03-26-2004).]

DL-44,

quote:

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Please feel free to point out those comments that fueled by naive nationalism.....I am at a loss to find any.

---

I don't want to point fingers - I may well be wrong - however: it is very unlikely that everyone in this thread understands the old and new politics of the US/Israel/Palestine relationship.. and yet it is very likely that most of us will still strongly take a side, because of what I referred to (perhaps wrongly) as naive nationalism.

quote:

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Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation with a person who tells you that, despite their ignorance of a situation, they don't want to learn anything about what they are trying to spout off about?

(no, you can't).

---

I agree that its hard to reason with someone like you describe. We should still try though, if we feel strongly about it. My point was that sarcasm wasn't necessary, appropriate, or useful. I stand by that.


Viol's original post was about the US being hypocritical over their policy/actions regarding Israel. I think that is a reasonable (though undiplomatically started) debate.

I also think that Viols comment about "not wanting to learn about the situation" should be taken with a pinch of salt.. I think he already knows more than many of us, and its clearly more personal to him than it is to most of us.

Mobrul,

I think you have summed up well. Though perhaps you could have reworded sentence 4

Finally - I don't think Viol is being racist, anti-semitic, etc etc.. he's frustrated because of the US's Pro-Israel slant.. and stating that a minority of Jews in the US are driving policy (which I personally can't see as being the root cause of US policy at all). So I urge everyone to avoid making this a racist-bashing.. because I really don't think thats what its about.

::edit:: typo

[This message has been edited by sonicsnail (edited 03-26-2004).]

(I'll add this as a new post.. as I'm writing following reading Bodhi23's post)

Bodhi23,

we've clearly given opposing thoughts regarding the racism in Viol's post. I'd like to look at this with you.

Could you throw out some quotes from Viol's posts that have appalled you please? Most people are agreeing with you.. but I'm going to maintain that Viol isn't having a bash at the Jewish race...

Pete

edit:sonicsnail whats this then:

quote:

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Yeah yeah yeah, talk to Jews what they don't want to hear, and get their anger, they will start telling you that you are ignorant, blah blah.
I was expecting that. It's part of the way Jews are. You just can't tell what you think, if you think is different from what they think.

---

and by your own responses to some of the things put to you such as "ignorant" etc etc that makes you a jew... well according to the above quote it makes you act as one (by your own definition)

Even if your comments arent meant to be racist they certainly carry the general message of that, Antisemitest at very least, to be honest i thought this would have been locked up way before now, based on the fact it is heading down a generally racist road, and i thought that was a big no no here..

I would love to know what got you so riled up about this, after all america isnt your home, you are free to leave when you want, or is it just the good prices you will miss? as that appears to be the only thing left you like..

look in every corner of the world there are problems where people are fighting for independance and being supressed, georgia, chechnia, the basque area of spain and the parts of france that border that area.. israel/palestinia is just a drop in the ocean..


hell ya think what the israeli govenrment is doing now is bad enough, i suggest you go back in history a bit an find out what we british did there before the state of israel was created, and to be honest thats one of the few parts of british history i am ashamed of...

I dont know where or how you obtained your information to make such sweeping statements, but unless you haved lived in such a country don't ever make the mistake of thinking you know whats really going on.

I have Israeli both jewish and non jewish friends, i have freinds i went to school with that live in the occupied territories... Its a fucking mess, and its being more and more polarized and whilst two parties are so appart and so bent on the elimination of what each percieve as a threat to their own survivals this will never go away..

but blaming the jews and the american government is way way out of line, what about the likes of the various palastinian terrorist groups they are blameless???

thats almost as bad as hitler was saying.... its all the jews faults, ya know where that took it, almost the whole of the jewish population in america would be gone up in smoke...

basing your opinions on a few people because you sure as hell dont know every member of the jewish faith is as has been pointed out ignorant and narrowminded. Just remember that israel is not composed of members of the jewish faith.


anyway enough of this for the moment.. maybe it would be better to close this if racism, or antisemitism keeps being discussed...




[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 03-26-2004).]

sonicsnail,

I don't call people 'nazi f***'s often. Sure, I probably use the f-word in my casual speech more than I should, but it's almost always as an intransitive verb or an adjective...almost never a noun.

More importantly, I don't think I've ever been so harsh in my 'name calling' EVER in this place. I always count to 10...sometimes to 100 before I post. More often than I'd like to admit, I realize the foolishness of something I was about to say...and just click 'Clear Fields' button.

Let me assure you, I counted to 100 this time. I said precisely what I intended. That was not my emotions speaking...but absolutely what I meant to write. I stand behind it 100%. Given the chance, I would not reword it one bit.

There were times in my life when those sorts of comments from someone in my presence led to me grabbing the nearest Guinness bottle and smashing it across the bastard's head.

In contrast, all I did was encourage him to think about the message he was sending. The frustrations he's having are legitimate. I have many of the same ones daily. Expressing those frustrations with generalized slurs only makes him appear to be a 'nazi f***'...whether he actually is or not.

You wanna talk about the Middle East? I'm game. It's among my favorite topics to discuss.
I will not stand by and let Hitler-esque rhetoric fly by uncontested.

[edit: fixed misspelling]

[This message has been edited by mobrul (edited 03-26-2004).]

quote:

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I think he already knows more than many of us,

---

Sonicsnail - he makes it very clear by what he says that he, in fact, does not. The fact that *you* do not know much about the issues does not mean that none of us do. It is unwise to make assumptions about what people may or may not know about history.

If you read the posts that followed the opener, you will see that the only thing anyone is taking a strong stand on is Viol's ignorance. I don't see any post up there that says "fuck you, the usa is great!" or any other such nonsense. Nobody even went so far as to disagree that the US has been too supportive of Israel - and I don't disagree with that at all. That is not the issue.

The pure ignorance, base insults, and gross generalizations are the issue.


Sarcasm inappropriate?
Ok, so the racism/antisemitism is ok, but the saracasm is inappropriate??? Ok....

I beleive that, if ever there were an appropriate time for sarcasem, this was it.

I am at a loss as to how you fail to see the racism is Viol's posts, and at even more of a loss as to how you can ask for quotes.....just read his posts. It oozes out of all of them in this thread.

Uhmmm, where do I start?

- why America was the first country to recognize Israel as a country and why Palestine is not recognized up to now?
- why in the first place Israel was created?
- why the Jews, after the war, deserved a new country? Because they lost too many lives in the war and a new country would avoid such horrible events to repeat in history and because the way they lost their lives was an absurdity? One absurdity can justify another?
- why choose a piece of land that was highly prone to conflicts? The arabs never accepted the idea of Israel there, never.
- is having the ownership of a land 2000 years ago a good reason for wanting to be the owner now?
- if so, why don't USA give the american natives back their land?
- why thinking as I think means that I am playing victim?

Too many questions...

I am not playing victim, I am not a victim, I'm an observer.
If my country were in deep shit, would I want help from the USA? No, I'd risk going to deeper shit if I was not aligned with the American thinking.
Yes technically, Israel was a UN creation, but I don't buy that. That's what the books say.
Am I a racist? No. If I disagree with what Israel and USA are doing, this makes me a racist?
Am I vile? Sometimes, I have some vile views, but in reality, I'm a pretty much normal, good citizen. Sometimes you have to _see_ the vile side of things or you'll be left behind, you will play the fool.
When I am pissed off, I may get emotional, and as such, I may exagerate in my views. That's just the way I am.

bodhi23, if there is one thing that I have learned here is that you have to measure the words you tell, because people here see racism EVERYWHERE. IT's like a crazy paranoid culture. I don't see all this racism you all see in my words. Here in the US, if you say anything that may look detrimental to the gays, to the black people, to the women, to the jews, to the minorities, you are a bloody racist. This is annoying. I decided not to measure my words in this one thread.

After thinking more about the issue here started by me, I _may_ think that probably I was unlucky to come to live here while Bush is the President. Maybe, if I were here back in the old C*****n days, it would have been different, I could go back to my country with a different view from the US, but this is just maybe. They say one President can't screw up a country in one mandate, but I'm not sure anymore.

I am not a master in this subject, but I can't be convinced by the masters that I am wrong. I am not arab. I am italian. When I said that I don't care about what Israel and the Palestinians do, I mean that I am not in any of their side. I try to see things neutrally.

if you were to refer to the U.S. as "the whites" would that be an unbiased observation? neither is calling a nation made of a variety of people "Jews", something several people have reiterated yet you continue to do. i don't even see where anyone has defended the U.S. on this, i think we'd all admit there are at least some flaws in our policy with israel. you've also closed off any and all chance of us even trying to reasonably discuss this with your "i don't want to learn more" comment. by talking about how Jews "are" you're already showing your closed-midedness and borderline racist views. DL's point was a valid one, that a variety of countries use/abuse their veto power in the UN in different ways. course, that would require actual listening and discussion to explore...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

After reading this last posting, I thought: there must be something wrong with the word "jews". Then I looked at my dictionary and I found:

Offensive. of Jews; Jewish.
as the fourth assertive in the dictionary.

When I am speaking Portuguese and I say "os Judeus", that would be something like "the Jews" (but now I find that it may not be the same thing), there is no offensive intention in my native language.

So, what I mean is: I don't mean to offend people by using "jews", I want to refer to the people that are from Israel (mostly) and around the world, the hebrews I think. Now, I don't even know what politically correct English word to use for refering to the jews without implicit offense.

So, I don't change anything I have said, but I do want to make clear that there is no intended offense in my words when I wrote "jews". For me, a jew is a person that believes in Judaism.

Oh man where do i start???

quote:

---

So, what I mean is: I don't mean to offend people by using "jews", I want to refer to the people that are from Israel (mostly) and around the world, the hebrews I think. Now, I don't even know what politically correct English word to use for refering to the jews without implicit offense.

So, I don't change anything I have said, but I do want to make clear that there is no intended offense in my words when I wrote "jews". For me, a jew is a person that believes in Judaism.

---

wtf???

get a fucking grip ya contradict yaself twice there first you say by a jew you mean someone that lives in israel or believes in judaism, well actually the ones from israel are in the minority

And Hebrew is a language !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

second off...

quote:

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Ruski, you're damn right.
The difference is that in the USA the power of the Jews is so blatant that it's impossible not to notice.

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where the fuck did you get that from ?????????????
now according to you america is influenced by the power by people from israel or those who believe in judaism..

dont know where the hell you got that idea from....


so then you decide to talk even more ignorantly:

quote:

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I am not a master in this subject, but I can't be convinced by the masters that I am wrong.

---

so not only do you now admit you dont know what you are talking about completely but you will not be convinced by those who do, then you say you try to see things neutrally, thats another load of bullshit, all along you have been complaining about the jewish side of things....

if you want to try and back track on ya steps and at least try and justify some of the worst stuff i have ever seen on here at least do so in a way that makes yourself look sorry for it or admit ya fucked up!!

this argument of yours is totally flawed, inflamatory at best, racist or antisemetic at worst...

The correct term to denote people who are from Isreal is Israeli, or in the plural, Israelis.

There are Palestinians, Jews, Greek Orthodox, and Christian people living in Israel. Much of the population is not native to the area, but have migrated there from other countries all over the globe. Lots of nationalities have made Israel their home. It's a lovely country, actually. Filled with so much history and such an oddly diverse landscape (for being in the desert...), the people I met when I was there on a dig in the mid-1990's were all wonderfully warm and welcoming.

When you refer to the population of Israel as "Jews", it raises a red flag for anti-semitism, and makes folks jump to the conclusion that you must be racist.

My comments about being appalled at racism were meant in general, not just at this thread. I was specifically thinking of a recent incident here where this guy in NC has created a t-shirt depicting a young boy standing under a Confederate Flag, urinating on the word "NAACP" (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People).

With as much race-directed violence as had occurred in this world, you would think that people, especially in the US, would have learned by now how very wrong that is. But we are still fighting it... it's pretty bad here in the SouthEast US... It makes me very sad.

As for this thread, I'll cut you some slack due to the language barrier, because for the most part, you've contributed nicely to the forum since you've been here...
Everybody can make a mistake...

But the US really isn't controlled by Jews. It's controlled by rich white power hungry males, more frequently of the fundamentalist Christian nature... if one must stereotype to begin with...

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 03-26-2004).]

after reading bodhi's post and re reading ya others i am going to refrain from anymore participation in this one, your ideas are flawed, your attitude to others trying to point out the errors is at best ignorant..

BUT this is the first time as bodhi pointed out you have come out with such type of stuff, but i will make one suggestion, you at least try to apologise to anyone you have may of offended by your comments, they may be your own personal beliefs, but saying "i dont change the way i think" or "experts cant change the way i think" certainly pushes you more into the grey area...

BUT I hate racism (actually hate isnt strong enough of a word) i hate anti semitism or other religeous bigotry...

bodhi, Israeli are the people from Israel. There are Palestinians, Jews, Greek Orthodox and Christian people there. You also say that "when I refer to the population of Israel as "Jews", it raises a red flag for anti-semitism, and makes folks jump to the conclusion that you must be racist."

My stupid English question: how can I refer to the Jews - living inside or outside Israel - without an offensive connotation and without refering to the Jews that live in Israel but instead to all the Jews that live around the world, including Israel?

I mean, how can I say "the jews" without being offensive, as it oddly seems to be?

----

tomeaglescz, if you want to know how to say welcome in Hebrew - in case you don't know yet, please, take a look at my site http://www.viol.com/mohaa/welcome_high.htm

Hebrew is not only a language.

[This message has been edited by viol (edited 03-26-2004).]

To say "jews" is not offensive, and is not the reason that people have taken offense at what you say.

It is the gross generalization and blatant insults which you have lavished on the jews as a whole that has caused offense.

You are still very off on your "facts" which does not help your case.

For starters, the idea of Israel was not of US origin. The US is *very* far from being the only country to acknowledge the state of Israel. The US is very far from being the only nation to not acknowledge a Palestinian state.

The Arabs have hated the Jews for countless millenia. They didn't want then there when they had rightful claim to the land as their own - of course they don't want them there now. But that hatred is about as unfounded, ignorant and wrong as any of the Israeli actions you seem so angered about.

The whole situation in the middle east is - obviously - one giant fucked up mess. And it has been that for as long as history records it. The current type of mess we have is a direct result of British, French, Russian, and - later on in the scenario - American interference. The European imperialism of the late 19th and early 20th century reignited and fueled many long standing feudal/tribal conflicts in the area, and created many new ones as well. The British/French/Russians carved the are up into their own competing nations after the fall of the Ottoman empire, ignoring in many cases any of the history of the area and any of the angry inhabitants demanding that things be returned to the "right" way.

Problem is, there is very little record of any sort of stability that alsted long enough to establish many meaningful borders that could be restored.

Other problem is, and still is to this day, the many greedy leaders who wanted to get whatever piece of the pie they could, and fucked over their own people to get into favorable positions with the Europeans.

The US came into this scenario well after these things began. The Jewish immigrations into Palestine happened long before the state of Israel was established. The Biritish control of Palestine led to a great many instabilities and failed to address any of them.

The establishment of a Jewish state is not what should have happened, IMO. I think it was a tragedy of politics that has allowed the personal tragedies there to continue. It has not caused such tragedies. It did not spawn the arab hatred of the jews.

It simply helped perpetuate an alread bad situation.

What the US has done with it's support for Israel is no different from what the Russians, the British, the French, and the rest of Europe has done with its support of middle eastern nations. In fact, in many ways, what the US has done in its support for Israel has not been as bad as what it( and the Europeans and Russians) has done in its support for other nations in the area.

The US support for Iraq and the corresponding Russian support for Iran, for instance was far more damaging, both in a personal sense for the inhabitants, and in a global political sense.
France's actions in the Ivory coast, the british in South Africa, these are all things that are terrible occurances in the recent history of the world's powerful nations.

So the idea that this is all an exclusive problem of the Jews and America is a vastly ignorant, racist, and sad view of things.

I am not worried about others taking me (wrongly) as an offensive, ignorant, vile, racist, unwanted, drug dealer, pitiful, victimized, martyrized, nazi - did I miss something? - south american guy. I said once, in another thread, I'm going to say again: I don't care about what others think of me, specially as a reason of an electronic conversation with people that barely know me (and vice-versa).

I was worried about others taking me as an offensive ... etc. ... guy by a misuse of the "the Jews" English connotation.

And history has many facets. You hear a Jew talk about Israel, you hear one side. You hear a Palestinian, you hear a different interpretation. So far, I am more convinced that the other side has better reasoning than the USA/Israel side.

[EDIT] Oops, before someone call me terrorist, let me make clear that I absolutely condemn any kind of terrorism, including policital/economic terrorism, be that said.

[This message has been edited by viol (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

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And history has many facets. You hear a Jew talk about Israel, you hear one side. You hear a Palestinian, you hear a different interpretation. So far, I am more convinced that the other side has better reasoning than the USA/Israel side.

---

Well....that's certainly a well reasoned response. I'm glad to see that you have given so much consideration to the total situation and taken all of the posts above into consideration....

(yes, more sarcasm - so sue me....)


{{edit -

ok, to expand a little on the meaning behind my sarcasm -

If you have commited yourself to judging the situation in Israel based narrowing all of this expansive tumultuous ancient chaos down to the current political leader's "sides" and the bullshit rhetoric created by each side, then you've already relegated yourself to a position if ignorance from which it is impossible to objectively gauge the actual situation.


The things that I spoke about in my last post are niether from a "us/israel" or a "palesitnian" point of view. They are (very simplified, obviously) the general way things happened - and as they are not very flattering to anyone involved, you can't use the argument that "they wrote the history they wanted to" bullshit.

I didn't sit and listen to a jew speak about history to get my information.

Without giving some thought to the issues of the actual history of the region, you can't fairly judge the siutation as a whole.

And despite anything else, the things you said in your prior posts are still ridiculously racist (and not because of any particular word(s) used).



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

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the things you said in your prior posts are still ridiculously racist

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If you said they are ridiculous, I could accept (as an opinion). But by saying they are racist, you're taking one side, you get biased. Simply because I don't see my opinions and comments as racist. Certainly, we have different opinions concerning the meaning of the word "racist" and that has to do with the paranoid American culture of racism where everything seems racist, versus my South American culture where certainly what I have said would not be called as racist by most of my peers. If my generalization makes you sad again, then assume it has to do with you and me being very different persons.

Hmm, to bring a new twist to this already completely fucked-up thread:

Someone (I don´t remember who) said that the state of Israel should have been created from a part of formerly german territory after WW2 - would have made sense, wouldn´t it? Why take their homeland away from the Palestinians when it was the Germans who commited the biggest of all crimes against the Jews?

viol, what you said was racist. You clearly have a very poor understanding of the history of the Middle East. I have seen some very strong words spoken against you in this thread from people who are normally the nicest people you will ever meet. It's a rare day indeed when you hear mobrul refer to anyone as a neo-nazi f*ck. That should be an indication of just how hateful and wrong your initial comments were. I am not angry at you, I am not emotional right now, I just would ask that you please apologize for the racist things you said.

quote:

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why America was the first country to recognize Israel as a country and why Palestine is not recognized up to now?

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"The General Assembly of the United Nations," the broadcaster read, "by a vote of thirty-three in favor, thirteen against and ten abstentions, has voted to partition Palestine." The US favored a positive vote, but so did a majority of the United Nations at the time.

It's difficult to recognize Palestine as a state when the inhabitants of the region have not recognized it. The reason the Palestinians haven't officially recognized a Palestinian state is that by doing so, they would officially declare war on Israel. Why is that? Because the Palestinian state includes 100% the entire West Bank, Gaza, and everything that is now what we call Israel.

But that being said, the US has called for a two state solution. We favor a Jewish state and an Arab state living side by side. C*****n favored it and so does Bush.

quote:

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why in the first place Israel was created?

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A multitude of reasons several of which DL-44 has mentioned above. But allow me to take a different approach. Where do Italians come from? Where do the French come from? What exactly is so offensive about Jewish people having a country they call their own?

quote:

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why the Jews, after the war, deserved a new country? Because they lost too many lives in the war and a new country would avoid such horrible events to repeat in history and because the way they lost their lives was an absurdity? One absurdity can justify another?

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Deserved a country? What does that have to do with anything? Why not the Jews? Why shouldn't they have a place to call their own? I want to know why you think they are undeserving of a homeland.

quote:

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why choose a piece of land that was highly prone to conflicts? The arabs never accepted the idea of Israel there, never.

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Ummm... perhaps because it is their ancestral homeland? And did you know that a Jewish population has existed in what we call Palestine ever since there have been Jews? It's not like they just popped up out of nowhere.

quote:

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is having the ownership of a land 2000 years ago a good reason for wanting to be the owner now?

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It was and it is to them, yes. But if not where they are from, then where would you suggest they go? I am dying to hear the answer to that one.

The desire that the Jews return to their homeland is nothing new. Zionism is a very real movement and there were some extremely dedicated people that adhered to that view. So much so that you should keep in mind had the UN vote gone the other direction... well, just listen to how Yitzhak Sadeh put it just before the vote was read over the radio that I quoted above. He was very active in fighting for a Jewish state in the years leading up to 1947.

quote:

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Now someone asked Sadey what he thought the result of the vote just beginning would be.
He was solemn and unsmiling. "I do not care," he said. "If the vote is positive, the Arabs will make war on us. Their war, " he said, his eyes sweeping the faces of his young officers, "will cost us five thousand lives."
In the hush that followed he added, "And if the vote is negative, then it is we who shall make war on the Arabs."

---

So just after the vote was read, Syria's UN delegate Fares el Khoury declared,

quote:

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The Holy Places are going to pass through long years of war, and peace will not prevail there for generations.

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I am pointing this out to show you that unrest was already in place before the UN vote to partition Palestine and there would have been war regardless of how the vote came out. If you think that the creation of the Isreali state caused this mess, then you are simply wrong and have not studied the situation.

quote:

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if so, why don't USA give the american natives back their land?

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What makes you think that won't ever happen? History is young.

quote:

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why thinking as I think means that I am playing victim?

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Because you said something incredibly racist and now you are complaining that people are attacking you for something other than that. As far as I can tell, people here like you but it seems no one knew you would say such ugly things about a group of people like you did. Criticizing the actions of the US and Israel is one thing, condemning a group of people like you did is quite another.


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

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The difference is that in the USA the power of the Jews is so blatant that it's impossible not to notice.

you should know, specially if you are a Jew...

Individually speaking, they are fine ....But when I think not individually, I really don't like what they are and how they act.

Yeah yeah yeah, talk to Jews what they don't want to hear, and get their anger, they will start telling you that you are ignorant, blah blah.

It's part of the way Jews are.

in the US, Jews, decide the fate of a country made of 300 million people.

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If these statements don't *define* racism.....I don't know what does.

I am one of the least 'PC' people you'll ever meet. I don't use the term racism lightly.

To actually try to deny that what said is blatantly racist is bewildering and disturning. Is it a language issue? Are you in denial? I don't get it...


I sincerely wish you would understand one point in particular:

I agree with you about the US and Israel's political dealings. I agree that Israel has acted very wrongly, and the US should not support Israel.

So stop trying to make this about people disagreeing with your stance on the Israel/Palestine situation, and wake up to the facts that we are talking about here....

Viol, you have to remember, being in America is like living in a tossed salad (cultures exist side by side)....there is no such a thing as an "American" .

American is a British, Russian, Scottish, Latin, native A., Indian, Asian blah blah etc. (you are not an idiot...at least I believe so...and I believe you know that)

Of course you wont be judged for what you said now, in Brazil...everyone(well majority) share same cultural characteristics, are all pretty much Lating folks who speak same language and uphold similar values....

Believe me, I know shitloads of Russians who are just like you. They come to America ( Or never been there)
and simply blable about it whatever comes to their mind...just like you...like if you just had nonsense running out of your mouth like daeriah

Yadda Yadda Yadda...Jew are that, Americans are that, but we Brazilians are so and so humble yadda yadda( I know you never meantioned the last part, but its pretty much how you sound)

you are just closing your eyes to a nation that welcomes you just as anybody else regardless of their race or religion for an oportunity to succeed...

What you said here was prejudice

lets look at the definition
Prejudice: An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

You judge the entire race/nationality/religion for the action of few or without knowing what the hell is going on...

I have a solution! First stop being such a cry baby. Second Pull your head out of your ass. Third apologize...

and if you want the forth...well, ignore my rant



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-27-2004).]

Sorry but I am not going to apologize.

If I am to be considered a racist, as most of you seem to agree, so be it, although I still disagree with the assertion. For me, it just happens that I am in the wrong place for exposing my views.

If you didn't like what I've already said, you'd like less what I could add to it. I really don't share the same views as you. I will return to my previous state of brainwashly measuring my words and avoiding "racist" messages. That I can do now that I learned the meaning of racist as understood here.

Are you sure you don't want to learn something? How about responding to the answers I gave to some of the questions above?


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

OK, let's examine this purely on the basis of definitions:

prej·u·dice (prj-ds)
n.

1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
2. A preconceived preference or idea.
3. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
4. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
5. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

rac·ism (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
1. One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

The definitions which appear to apply to this situation are in bold. Based on what I have just read here, this thread should have been closed a while ago...so that's what I'm going to do now. Reason being: this has escalated far beyond the point of rationality, and there are a number of racist comments being made here which are severly against the policies of this board.

This thread is dead.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 03-27-2004).]