Preserved Topic: Team Mascots (Page 2 of 2)

DL

quote:

---

let's pretend it's an Iriquois (whose blood runs through my veins)

---

if the blood of that tribe is flowing thru your veins you might want
to learn the real name of the tribe:
iroquois


lots of mohawks and iroquois where i'm from

bugs

quote:

---

That is why holocaust victims were compensated.

---

that's the best line of the thread
you should write your own *revisionist history*

6 million jews, poles, gypsies, etc. all slaughtered thru
mass extermination .....how were they compensated?
a new VW beetle for the kids? 2 for 1 at the german McD's
you've got quite a different perspective on history than i do

*sadly shakes head* Ok, I'm droping the issue...I only wanted you to begin to see things through the eyes of someone who has been impacted and affected by the topic...

I only wanted you to understand what my people have gone through and are still going through...apparently, things haven't changed all that much...

It's sad...

Thank you for sharing your views and opinions...and I am grateful that at least I got a chance to explain mine...our struggle goes on...maybe in a couple of hundred years, after you have accomplished what you started, the complete 'erasing' of our culture and people, this will be a mute point...

And all that will be left of us are mascots of some baseball team...a few city names...and whatnot...maybe we will even get a museum, where children can ask 'is that an indian? Who were they?'

Isn't it funny, when you were a child playing cowboys and indians, that the indians were always the 'bad guys'? Well, are we?

ShootingStar, I think that must be your way of pointing out I should have described the recipients of the reparations as "holocaust survivors". Thanks for that.

But in the off chance you had no clue about what I was referring to:
http://www.businessweek.com/1999/99_08/b3617102.htm
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/jeizenstat.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/reparations.html

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 05-25-2002).]

SS - it was late...typo's happen...

WS - you assume a lot by your last statement.

I find it somehwat funny - where I live "white" people have been kicked off their land so that the pequots could have it back to build a casino on.

Is that in keeping with the beliefs of "your" people? Is this what restoring your culture is all about?

DL-44, whoever they may be (And I don't know which tribe you mean...), I can assure you they are not my people...not from my tribe. There you go, acting exactly like the mainstream...'indian' is a common, all-inclusive word...sort of like the word 'asian' to describe someone from, say, Korea...

And as to the Casino thing....I'm going to dig up some information for you, it will shock you, I'm sure...naw...I'm not going to do that...you could do it, if you were interested...there is enough information on the internet.....

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh...

quote:

---

...so that the pequots could have it back ...

---

doesn't sound like a generalization to me....

Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'll just never understand the importance placed on such silly issues when there are such *huge* issues to overcome.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 05-25-2002).]

Bugs:
I understood fully you meant survivors not victims, and i was not
poking fun at that. I meant that when you have directly been
treated like vermin in a concentration camp yourself or have
had your family members rounded up and gassed - no amount of money
or "gee we're sorry we made your dad into a lampshade" or
"we're sorry we did vivisections on your mom (for the kids
that means removing organs and stuff while your "patient"
is alive and unmedicated) or "we would love to give you your
gold teeth back".

Same for the native Indians, same for the Japanese in both
canadian and u.s. internment camps....you don't just make
reparations and it's over, we're square now.

edit: i checked your links Bugs..the last one says 120,000 survivors
are left to be compensated...do the math.

It's not my call but this thread has gone from Mascots (like those
chickens and bears and stuff) to team names to the screwing of
the indians in america..... not going anywhere is it?


[This message has been edited by ShootingStar (edited 05-25-2002).]

Threads most often deviate like this around this place. It's ok, trust me.

And I never said suggested that reparations totally repaired anything. If you acknowledge you knew about the reparations paid to holocaust survivors, then what the heck was that "your own revionist history" remark about? Let's agree on what did happen and then we can discuss whether it was a good idea or not.

Bugs:
My comments on revisionist history were meant to convey
the idea that you just can't say "the holocaust was a bad
mistake but the germans made reparations...so it's tabla
rasa...the slate is clean- everything is ok now"

also, i'm challenging your ideas, not you as a person. if you
felt i was taking shots at you, i apologize.

I love the way people ignore the truth. They just read over it and go to the next thing. They skip right over the truth, like you did my last post, and read the one you can argue with.

"All things are true to someone, so therefore all things are true." me

"Belief is a matter of taste" Bernard Shaw

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become." Charles Du Bos

"We, as individuals, both live and die based on the misconception that what we believe to be true, is in reality true. And this is true, its just that in hyper-reality, everything is true." Me



[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-25-2002).]

No prob, ShootingStar. I never said anything remotely like that. If that is what I thought, I would have said it. Of course, reparations don't completely repair past injustices. But that is not to say they are always wrong or always right.

Gil - for the record, I skipped over your post becuase it made very little sense and seemed to have no definable conclusion other than indians living in national parks not being a good idea...

To add to what DL said, if you're going to post in forums or newsgroups don't expect
to always be the center of attention. if you do, you'll be very disappointed. try toughen up that skin...you have to able to dish it out and take it...... go over other threads and you'll be surprised at the high percentage of posts that are "overlooked" and how quickly threads go onto tangents and different topics.

I am not feeling left out or anything. It's just that this topic seems to have no end in site, because everyone can not accept that everyone is right. To be right, you do not have to prove someone wrong. You have to instead accept that they are also right. I think....

Well, I'm pretty happy with this thread...because we agreed to disagree without flaming one another...and if you do a search of the archives, one can see that that is not always the case...

No hard feelings here...because not everyone has to agree with me...that would be boring, indeed...

WebShaman, I'm not sure everyone has disagreed with you. I was actually hoping you could post a few links on some specific treaties that are not being upheld. I'm really not familiar with the specifics of the cases you're talking about. If nothing else, it would be good to learn more about the present situation.

Yeah Bugs, I know that not everyone was disagreeing with me...I was just hoping....aw, forget it.

Now, about the treaty thing, and other matters...ok, if you want, I'll start digging up what I can find on the net...and I'll keep you informed...I know you've always been prepared at least to hear the other side of the story...I know that. The above comments were not really aimed in your direction...sorry if I gave that impression...

read this first...it is about what a treaty is...
http://www.fw.umn.edu/Indigenous/rights.htm and this http://www.jamestowntribe.org/frequently_asked_questions.htm

Here are many background links - http://www.indians.state.mn.us/t-source.html
http://www.narf.org/pubs/faqs.html
http://www.lib.csufresno.edu/SubjectResources/GovernmentDocuments/NativeAmLaw.html
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jamarcus/laramie.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/indians_side010222.html
http://www.health.state.nd.us/ndiac/sovereignty.htm
http://writers-voice.com/Danny_Kinser_the_dishonorable_us_government.htm

And here is a bit about my people (and yours, Bugs...you are also Cherokee)

http://pblmm.k12.ca.us/projects/discrimination/NativeAmerican/Cherokee/contact.html and http://www.nps.gov/fosm/history/5tribes/tot/relations.htm

Here is a bit about the 'Casino' issue...interesting read...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/yeagley/2002/dy04-18-02.htm

Also interesting...
http://www.progressive.org/mpvdbk00.htm

This indepth coverage of the 'current' problems by CNN is fascinating..
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/941123.html

And this is downright shocking... http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12425

To this, comes a lot more information...the list is almost as long as there are tribes...so many broken treaties, legal documents, mismanaged funds, lands, and Federal Bureaus...it's unbelievable in it's complexity..

If you manage to get through even just half of the information in these links, I think you will be surprised...




[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-27-2002).]

Hello: http://www.press-on.net/commentaries.htm


Fifty years past the deadline: Why are Indian tribes still suing over ancient treaties?
August 17, 2001

A Goal Unrealized
This August 13th marks the 50th anniversary of the deadline set by Congress for Indian tribes to sue the United States for grievances arising prior to 1946. Nevertheless, Indian tribes continue to file claims for loss of their treaty rights, loss of land, and other claimed injustices. The special law that allowed Indian tribes to file all claims and then closed the chapter on this part of America?s history is now largely forgotten by the courts and the public.

Just thought you may want to read this...


-^^-
--::--
\___/

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-28-2002).]

I don't need to read it...because it is not relavant

quote:

---

Aren't treaties old and out of date?

No, a contract does not "go out of date" just because it becomes inconvenient to certain interests. Even older than Indian Treaties, the US Constitution remains relevant and binding on its citizens. The Constitution guarantees treaties as "the supreme law of the land." If age could render a contract obsolete, then tribes would be able to demand that lands transferred by their ancestors to the United States be returned to the tribe's descendants.

---

So what you posted is irrelevant propaganda....who wrote it, and where did you find it? Ok, found the source...looking into it... http://www.citizensalliance.org/links/pages/articles/50_years_past_the_deadline.htm and here is the article in full http://www.citizensalliance.org/links/pages/articles%20and% 20CERA%20news/Indian%20Claims%20Commission%20Article.htm

I admit that on the surface, it raises some interesting (and perhaps valid) points....I am still looking into it...Ahhh...finally found what I was looking for http://www.perm.org/

Now, of course it would be something like this...and even though they have raised some interesting points....I now understand the background reasons for it...just another group...yes, it does seem that they are 'interested' in conserving, the question is why and what for...ok, just read the mission statement...and to a point, I agree...however, many of the hunting and fishing rights granted to American Tribes would be endangered by this view...that doesn't seem to bother them, even though many of these rights were granted by law (and upheld in the court cases in the very article that they wrote...very interesting...)

Ok, this personally makes me sick...

quote:

---

It's interesting to note that nowhere are the phrases, "as long as the grass grows" or "as long as the rivers flow" , ever mentioned. In fact PERM has never seen a treaty between the U.S. and an Indian Tribe that used such language

---

Such propaganda is indeed a very serious issue...because of this http://www.sixnations.org/Lessons_from_History/
Here is were the difference is

quote:

---

An actual silver chain was made to symbolize their agreement. The three links of that chain were said to represent peace, friendship, forever, the basic themes of all Iroquois treaties. This is also the first written treaty to use the famous phrases: "as long as the sun shines upon the earth; as long as the waters flow; as long as the grass grows green, peace will last."

---

Ok, after going through this information, this treaty was indeed made with the British, not the US...however, the same meaning (though not these exact words), are mentioned in a treaty between the US and the Six Nations in the Fort Stanwix Treaty of 1784

quote:

---

the receipt whereof they do hereby acknowledge, do hereby renew and confirm the said boundary line in the words before mentioned, to the end that it may be and remain as a division line between the lands of the said Six Nations and the territory of the United States, forever.

---

Notice the similarity? The phrase "as long as the sun shines upon the earth; as long as the waters flow; as long as the grass grows green, peace will last." entails the same as the word "forever". However, forever is actually a much longer amount of time as that in the phrase....

Interesting is, that another Treaty was again drafted, the Treaty of Fort Harmer in 1789, just 5 years later. Again, the principle is upheld.

So the PERM is using semantics....but the word "forever" is actually much more damaging to the claim they make as the phrase is...

Ok, found this to help back up my suspiscions...

quote:

---

The Silver Covenant Chain of Friendship was one of the first treaties made between the Haudenosaunee and Europeans. Beginning with the Dutch in the early 1600's, Covenant Chain treaties were made with the French, English, other tribes, and eventually with the Twelve United Colonies of the Americas. The Covenant Chain became a symbol of the relationship between the Haudenosaunee and other nations. It served to connect us or bond us together in friendship, as brother to brother.

According to the book "The Life of Captain Brant," the Commissioners appointed by the Twelve United Colonies to make a treaty with the Six Nations at the City of Albany on Friday, the 25th day of August, 1775 made this statement:

By this Belt, we, the Twelve United Colonies renew the old Covenant Chain by which our forefathers in their great wisdom thought proper to bind us and you, our brothers, of the Six Nations together when they first landed at this place and if any of the links of this great chain should have received any rust we now brighten it and make it shine like silver. As God has put it into our hearts to love the Six Nations and their allies we now make the chain of Friendship so strong, we hope through the favour and mercy of the good Spirit that it will remain strong and bright while the sun shines and waters run.

---

Now it is really getting interesting...

Here is a fascinating link...you won't believe it... http://tuscaroras.com/pages/history/iroquois_constitution_1.html

More on Cherokee history... http://www.tolatsga.org/Cherokee2.html




[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-28-2002).]

The idea of nationalities in general are just silly.

To fight for your own 'nationality' for something that doesn't overly concern you, is plain ridiculous.

IMO, reperations should be made to all those effected by the said action. Slave as a child? The owner, reguardless of their background, should pay you some sort of reperation. Great grandchild of a slave? 'Whites' in general owe you something? Get out of here. How has your life been burdened? After a while it stops becoming a matter of compensation and more of a matter of getting paid.

IMO, if someone has stolen your land, your perfectly in your rights to use the court system to retrieve it. If someone has 'stolen' land that you've never seen from people you've never met some two hundred years ago? Your out of your mind if your sacraficing time in your day to actually argue about it. What common link do you have? Some where along the lines a century ago or so your great great great grandparents came from the same country?

It's like being born and growing up in NY. Being completely educated in NY and creating a life for you in NY to turn around and say oh no I'm not a NYer, my great grandmother was from Texas.

What realy gets on my nerves though is when people showcase their nationality as if 1.) I cared, and 2.) they've ever even seen the country. If you've grown up your entire life in the United States. You were educated in the United States. You raised children in the United States. You've never left the United States, except on vacation, or not English.

Just adding my feelings.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Well Jestah, you raise some interesting points...and then pour gasoline on them, apparently waiting for me to light it. No chance. I have very good reasons for my beliefs, my (according to you 'supposed') grievences, and my stout support of my people. You say that one born in America is american...ok, that's your point of view, you are welcome to it. I disagree.

I was born and raised in the US. But I have not lived my whole life there, nor have I raised children there. I have fought a war for the US, which combined with my military service legally relieves my 'debt' to the US Government (being born American , one does have duties to uphold).

Other than that, I don't really consider myself American. At least, not in the sense that you have given. I consider myself a Global person, with strong ties to my Cherokee heritage. At this point in our history, being 'just' a Global person is really not recognized. Maybe that will change, who knows?

To the other points that you have raised, I've already provided more than enough information on...

WS, I'm not trying to directly target you in any way. I respect you far to much to do so. I respect your beliefs but fail to see the reasons for them. If it is someone you know in particular who's rights are being deprived in the United States then I could understand being annoyed. If it was a family members I could understand being upset. But coming from someone who doesn't live in the States, I just don't see the reasoning in it. Originally my family came from both Germany and England. I don't become enraged if one or the other is having problems. I certainly don't seek some sort of compensation for it. I've been fortunate enough to be able to summer in both countries and while I enjoy going there, I'm simply neither German or English.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Ok, considering that, why indeed do I feel so strongly on this issue? Well, considering the history of my people here http://www.tolatsga.org/Cherokee2.html and the fact that my people are one of the 'five' (so named...not from my people, certainly) civilized tribes and adapted to the 'new' ways so well, only to get knocked back down, built up again, got knocked back down...

We once had a functioning nation (twice, actually), with a written language (still exists) and a constitution (still exists). Every time my people got to a point that it was well underway, we got 'put back in our place' so to speak...we definetly showed, that it was, and is, possible for the 'indians' of the US to impliment the 'new' ways and at the same time, hold on to the old ways, to produce something new...but that was also unacceptable, apparently...

And so it goes on...we only wish to do just that...self-rule, as was promised, time and again...on our lands (and then taken..). Now, don't get me wrong. My people are certainly no angels, and have certainly made mistakes. But we paid very dearly for our mistakes. We tried...very hard, actually, to become a part of the 'new ways'. It was not allowed. Intolerance. And it continues, to this day. And that is what it is all about...today and tomorrow. We have not forgotten the past...and would be very stupid to do so. The past shows that we cannot trust what is promised, be it in word or in law (on paper)...we need to be wary of that. Today shows that many of the same 'stereotypes' still exist...and haven't changed all that much...and we need to be wary of that, as well. And tomorrow?

If my people can learn from the past, overcome the challenges of today, then maybe we have a chance for tomorrow. But we need your participation, your allowance, your acceptance. Only then can we move ahead...sad, but true...


Fixed the link - Jestah

[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 05-28-2002).]

WS - I would understand your position if you were an active member of a Cherokee reservation that was continuously losing land, but this isn't the case. Civilizations being 'conqured' by those stronger and more advanced is just the way of the world. While perhaps its not right, its human nature. While we can't just right off all the wrongs in the world as acts of human nature, I fail to see what your fighting for. Is it breaking away from the US government? You've already done that. You reside across an ocean. Is it looking for respect or equality? I believe you have that. Since IMO, you aren't personally suffering, I don't see why you are even seeking some sort of reperation in any form.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Hmmm...well Jestah, I'm considering your point...and no, I'm not really an activist (at least, not in that sense).

However (and you knew that was coming, didn't you...) because of my 'race' I have been persecuted...and encountered prejudice. This has stuck with me, even to today. I would either like
a) to see that change
or
b) to see my people finally become that which was promised...which would mean that there would be a place where that wouldn't be the case...a land for us...where we are free to decide for ourselves...

However, as I have really enough things to do with my life, I don't have alot of time (and energy) to actually become an activist....though I do attempt to 'do my part' when and where I can...