Topic awaiting preservation: Do You believe in GOD ][? Again

OK another attempt to continue the thread from here:
www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000442.html

Emps

I find Webshaman's analogy comparing parents to god to be slightly flawed. Firstly, a parent can't stop their child from being run over by a drunk driver on her way home from school; god could. Why doesn't he? If he exists, he must not care so I would have to hate him.

Secondly, when a child uses their free will and gets into trouble a parent doesn't lock them into a closet for the rest of their lives. God sends your soul to eternal damnation. That sounds like he's a petty and insecure prick if you ask me. Shouldn't god be able to trancend those kind of puerile human behaviors?

I certainly hope that there is no Christian god. It isn't because of any fear of eternal damnation although that's what I would get as a non-believer. I hope that there isn't a god because of how badly he has treated his own creations throughout the eons. Truth be known, I would gladly spend eternity in constant torment than have to suffer his presence for an instant.

OK I suppose I couldn't let this pass:

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*The Ten-Dimensional universe is a theory that says that instead of the four basic dimensions that we know of (length, width, height and time), their are actually ten. The extra six come from heaven and hell, but since time is irrelivant there their is only three dimensions in each. Those dimensions would then overlap with our dimensions to make ten (think "Planes" from DnD, Baldurs Gate etc.). The theory was invented by a german scientist and proved through years worth of mathematics.

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I believe the number os dimensions is still only a theoretical number (I've seen different figures quoted) and where in the Bible does it discuss this?

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*Ok, maybe I wasn't clear about this...by ancient dinosaurs I meant anything that lived around that time that could fly. All of the flying lizards (thats what i'll call them, I forgot the proper definition) bone structures were scientifically proven to have been to heavy to fly, so (some scientist) said that maybe the air was denser then it could support the flying lizards heaviness, because they could get more lift from the denser air when they flapped their wings.

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Denser air? There is no reason to think that (and what would the mechanism be?). We can analyse samples of air drapped in rock and things like amber and there is no evidence of denser air.

'Flying lizards' not being able to fly? The larger ones probably relied more on soaring flight - I don't think there are many palaeontologists who follow the 'Bumble Bee Hypothesis' for these flying dinosaurs.

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*The theory of the denser air was then taken farther to say that if the air was denser then it could soak up more deadly rays from the sun. It has been scientifically proven that if we were not bombarded with those rays then we could live anywhere from 10-20% longer. In the (chrisitian/catholic) bible, it records people living 120 - 130 years and more. While I think that this could be because of conflicting calenders, that theory could also have something to do with it.

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There is no evidence in the fossil record of anyone living to be 120-130 (top ages would have grown to around 40-50 and dipped slightly with the introduction of agriculture and then increased with modern medicine).

There was also 60+ million years between these 120-130 year olds and the dinosaurs - did the atmosphere mysteriously thin out recently?

The arguements tend to be ones designed to explain a literal reading of the Bible rather than one based on observable evidence.

Have a read through this:
www.talkorigins.org

Emps

St. Seneca - I have never stated that God exists. However, I have tried to explain that if God does exist, there are reasons for his actions (or lack thereof). Your reasons for your beliefs are, of course, your reasons. I was just questioning them. And maybe trying to give some insight into them. Nothing more. I don't believe in a hell (at least, not a biblical hell). I believe we make our own hells.

But to be angry with God, for something you think he/she/it should (or should not) do, is IMHO, not exactly just. You only see that from your perspective, and not from Gods (if he/she/it exists). Maybe God has reasons for what he/she/it does. I feel that it is pretty well explained in the old testament (yes, I have read the bible. It's a pretty good read, actually). Maybe you could give God a bit of slack on this...can you forgive him/her/it? Also, consider this - who says that you are going to hell? Until you hear that from God himself, I hardly think that that is where you are going...just because someone writes 'if you don't believe, you go to hell'? That's propaganda, pure and simple.

But I am not a believer. At least, not as the Christians are. I certainly don't believe the Bible is anything other than a book, with information in it. The Old Testament is clearly an account of the Hebrews. And the New Testament...well, it does have some wisdom in it, but also a lot of propaganda (IMHO).

the idea of being "sent" to hell, which is how most non-christians seem to view the christian perspective, is really a flawed way of loking at it. being sent somewhere seems to imply a lack of choice, a lack of options on our part. think of it as being in the water and unable to swim and someone holds out a rope to you, all you have to do is the grab the rope and you're going to be ok. but grabbing the rope is your choice. you can't complain that there wasn't a rope. i agree with WS's thought on this actually, i can hardly claim to understand an all-powerful omnipotent God's ways of reasoning, decision-making, etc., with my limited human mindset. to do so is simply arrogant.

people try to oversimplify christianity as "don't go to hell" and that's really only such a small part of it. it has a lot more to do with fulfilling your God-given purpose, becoming everything that you can be and receiving all that God has for you. but so many stick to "i don't like that God would do this so i'm not going to believe." i don't like things my parents did and sometimes still do, but that doesn't mean they're not my parents.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

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i can hardly claim to understand an all-powerful omnipotent God's ways of reasoning, decision-making, etc., with my limited human mindset. to do so is simply arrogant.

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Unfortunately we have to make all our decisions (including religous matters) with our limited human mindsets.

When I kill your family, do you need to understand my reasoning to say that this is bad?

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think of it as being in the water and unable to swim and someone holds out a rope to you, all you have to do is the grab the rope and you're going to be ok. but grabbing the rope is your choice. you can't complain that there wasn't a rope.

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Problem is, what you see as a rope, others might see as a snake. So you can complain that you weren't offered a rope, but a snake, and what help was that?

If there is a heaven and a hell, I don't think they are so much different places as different states of being. I'd think that death would lift the veil of life that clouds our perceptions to show us with complete clarity the sum of our lives. Picture having everything you've done, every little slight, every charitable moment, all there in perfect clarity, and having to exist with those memories.

I'm not sure yet if I believe in such a thing as a heaven and/or hell. But if I did, I would find it making more sense to me as what I've described above. In that maybe we don't go anywhere. We stay here and exist in a somewhat disconnected manner from the physicality of our mortal world. Still dealing with others, but also dealing with the memories of our lives and the consequences of the choices we made in those lives.

Witherin

Fig good to see you back again!

Where have you been? I have more posts then you do now lol.

My opinions and refections on religion:

1. I do not practice any particular religion, but respect them ALL.

2. My parents have instilled in me, without using an organized religion, what is bad and what is good.

3. I feel that most organized religions were implemented by kings and emperors to control the masses (organization). IMHO

4. The bible is informative, yet primitive in nature. Perhaps an early form of a science and philisophy book used for understanding things in their best known manner for its time and educational influences.

5. I view religion as more of a corporate organization rather than purely spiritual (very lucrative business). However I do not criticize this as much as I used to because I am thankful that I am not burned at a stake for not practicing.

6. I grew up with Catholicism around me (not my immediate family), but was granted by my extended family the license to formulate my own opinions about heaven/hell, nature and science. I am thankful for this.

7. You'd never be able to tell me apart from someone having practiced a socially peaceful religion their entire life. Even though I do not "practice" any particular religion, I am a peaceful person. You could say that I have taken ideals from many different religions and formed my own hybrid way of thinking.

8. I feel bad when I know I have done something that I know is wrong (my "hell").

9. I feel good when I know I have done something that I know is right (my "heaven").

10. I do believe that there is some kind of higher spirit out there for everyone. To me it has no gender, age, denomination, race, favorite color, etc. It is what tells me "no" and "yes". I feel that my conscience has an uplink to it. Perhaps if human beings could see more of the physical spectrum of light we'd know more about it.

11. I am thankful that I live in a country that does not disown its varied flavors of people simply because they may not practice a certain religion.

12. I am thankful that my neighbor has not tried to murder me, rape my wife, etc. If religion can govern most people to keep this from happening, then preach on brother!

13. I do not take kindly to those that try to "save" you by imposing their religion on you. I don't have time for this. To me, they come off as being very brainwashed and they should keep to themselves.

14. I believe that I will see my grandpa again someday, and I think he will be proud of me.

15. I am thankful that I have the right to express my opinions here.

16. I am thankful that, even though others may oppose these opinions, they will not attempt to destroy me.

So I am hereby religiously "spamming" everyone on this forum who has read this or not with a blessing, in conformance to their own religion, for a peaceful life and continued happiness or your strive for it. May your OWN creator deliver you from the hands of evil and bring you home to your families safely each day.

*For the record, my SIG bears no implication as to how I feel toward you. I just think it is "cool."



[This message has been edited by Thumper (edited 05-18-2002).]

*steps up, cracks knuckles and stretches out... this one's gonna be a doozy, folks...*

First off, forgive me if I bring up any answered questions, statements that have been run into the ground, etc, as I can't remember exactly what everyone has said before me in this series of threads. But I'll pour my guts out and let everyone sort it out and flame me for it anyways. What a sucker, eh?

Anywho, the major problem I see with standardized religions is that most use them as an absolute, black and white answer to everything, and discredit others' thoughts and beliefs automatically without considering validity. In a way, it's a form of brainwashing that tells one 'this is right, it always is and always will be... anyone says different, they're going to be punished for the rest of eternity!'

Let's back up. What? I have a problem with standardized religions? Sure do. Look at the crusades, hell, look at what's going on in the middle east at this very moment! It's one big sweaty ball of "You must die for not worshipping the same God as I!!", and I highly doubt that a creator would have this be for it's worshippers.

It's tough to go against my upbringing, however, I was raised a Christian and I guess I still have a few things hiding in my here and there, just waiting to pop up and ask what Jesus would do in said situation. Of course, booze usually takes care of that little problem.

Seriously though, sometimes I think we get so swept up into worshipping something that, Bible aside, may or may not be there at the end of the road. I remember having many conversations with conventionally brought up Christians and only go to prove that they shout out at the mouth with 'this is right, this is wrong' without taking plain common sense into account.

Example; about two years ago, I lived alongside (duplexes... ugh...) a girl named Stephanie, who was so ultra-Christian it flowed from her ears. I once asked her, "If I believe and accept in God, and I die, I'll go to heaven."

Her reply, "Yes."

"If I do not, regardless if I've been ultra good or ultra bad, I'm going to hell."

"Correct."

"So you're saying that billions upon billions of people, monks, jews, egyptian, whatever, who have done nothing wrong at all, go to eternal damnation simply because he or she did not believe in Christianity, or accept your God?"

Needless to say, she stormed off, knowing that I had brought up something that not only went against her 17 years of upbringing, but made SENSE.

I've been told that my beliefs range somewhere near olde time Dietism, where I believe that God is more of a cosmic gardener, rather than a zues-like figure sitting atop an ivory throne, judging us and our actions. I believe that he planted us as a farmer would plant a row of corn, watering it with a genetic boost here and altering it's existance there with a spot of whatever... generally letting us do as we wish and providing us with a little helping hand now and then.

Of course, I've also talked to many people who have the belief that we are what we literally are, a massive collection of cells working together to make themselves live for it's span and die out, just as a pig or a dog or a whatever biological being on the planet does. Do I believe this? Again, it makes sense, but it's hard to swallow.

Maybe I, or we to be more exact, are just looking for something to reassure ourselves that we aren't living out our lives just to live. We've made all these laws and rules for our society to try and maintain a civil course through life, but really, do they help us out all that much? In the case that we ARE infact, just a massive collection of cells that'll eventually stop working and rot away, shouldn't we be living our lives to the most it can be, and not worry about the small things?

But we're human. I worry that every bump in the road is my tire going out. I worry that the car behind me is a cop. I worry that I might not be able to get my paycheck in on time and get charged with an overdraft.

I'm human. You're human. And I'm sure that's just about all He could ask for.

Thank you, and good night.

...


*hands peacepipe to the next person in line*

njuice42
icq 957255

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So I am hereby religiously "spamming" everyone on this forum who has read this or not with a blessing, in conformance to their own religion, for a peaceful life and continued happiness or your strive for it. May your OWN creator deliver you from the hands of evil and bring you home to your families safely each day.

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Although I don't share Thumper's religious beliefs, that is probably the most mature response I have ever seen in one of these threads. I appreciate the blessing, Thumper, and I hope you are blessed as well.

Ok well the strangest thing happened to me today. As I was eating lunch with some friends discussing this topic the lunch moniter came by and I asked her if she believed in god and she said yes, took a long pause, and then said you don't do you. So she gave me this book about this scientist that didn't believe in god and married a women who was a christian, so he set out to prove her wrong but ended up proving her write and then wrote all the reasons to believe in a book called "Reasons To Believe." I haven't had time to really start reading it but I'll get back to you on weather it changes my believe or not .

Was it by Dr. Hugh Ross?

Their is a book by a man called Josh McDowell, called Evidence That Demands a Verdict. It's like a huge research paper. Josh was a Satanic kinda guy (or something like that) that was dared by a Chrisitian colleague in a colledge Science and Religion class (I think) to prove that their is no Christian God. Well, he tried, and, in all respects, he failed.

Bugs: I left the book in my locker at school but that wasn't the name, his name was like fredrick eabert or something.

Bacon: See my problem with that is, if your satanic, you have to believe in god even if you worship the devil. People come up to me and ask me if I believe in god and I'll say no and then they'll say what do you believe in the devil?, but to worship satan that means you have to believe in the existence of god.

I think we've covered the fact that we can't prove something doesn't exist (and quite frankly anyone who sets out to prove that something doesn't exist should have thought things out ebfore hand) - that in no way proves that it does exist.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

the return

how many days, hours, minutes have I been here working on this thing?
looking for inspiration for the work
looking to the work for inspiration
to create
but is it I who create?
I can only work with what has been created for me
molding it into something different
something new?
so in the end
is as from the beginning

~

[This message has been edited by flashtongue (edited 05-21-2002).]

Well, its 7:30 and I just finished watching an episode of the Simpsons yet again...just a little quick quote:

Homer Simpson: Helllloooo Flanders. I was just working on my tax proposal and accidentally proved that their is no god.
Flanders: Well, let me see that.
Homer: Ok, here
*Flanders takes the paper and reads over it*
Flanders: Well, this can't be true...let me see that agin
*Flanders reads the paper yet again, with a worried look on his face*
*Homer walk to his car*
Flanders: Well, we can't let this little doozie get out...
*Flanders burns the paper*

Nope. I don't.

Lets see...God.

Ok, here goes.

Demons and Gods are one, they just use different techniques to teach us about our spirituality. I percieve Demons to be an attempt by modern man to hide that the fact that we are all, as humans, composed of both good and evil, and through hiding behind one, say good, the other will always attack you. The only way to remain in ultimate power is to pass all the tests of both good and evil, and then you will see that they are both just showing you their power. If you reject all their powers, from both sides, eventually you reach a level of understanding of the powers of both sides, and both sides will respect you as the middle man. The middle man is more powerful that anyone who is pure good, or pure evil, because both sides respect him and can be utilized by that person whenever they are needed. Like if evil attacks, you attack back with evil. If good tries to nicely slide into your thoughts, just use goodness back. Do not fight one against the other, this is a dangerous game most people never win.

I was wondering when you were gonna say something DL.

That said, why don't you?

sorry for my delay in response here, had a lot going on the last few days. and thanks insider, i'm around some, but freelancing and doing some other stuff that take up a lot of my time...

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Problem is, what you see as a rope, others might see as a snake. So you can complain that you weren't offered a rope, but a snake, and what help was that?

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to which my response would be, have YOU looked to see what it is, or are you simply taking everyone else's word for it? because i'm constantly amazed by people's incredibly incorrect preconceptions about christianity due to some idiot neighbor, sunday school teacher, etc.

overload, sorry, but your observation isn't really relevant. if you took action against me/my family/etc. i don't need to understand your reasoning, but i COULD possibly have some understanding of why you did what you did (upbringing, violence against you, etc.). it doesn't mean that i'd agree with you or just be ok with it, but because we reason basically the same way i have a means to look at your situation and why you reacted the way you did. we do make our decisions based on our knowledge and reasoning, but that still doesn't mean we can assume to understand how an almighty being would reason, my point is simply that it seems silly to say that God "should" act a certain way.

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Let's back up. What? I have a problem with standardized religions? Sure do. Look at the crusades, hell, look at what's going on in the middle east at this very moment! It's one big sweaty ball of "You must die for not worshipping the same God as I!!", and I highly doubt that a creator would have this be for it's worshippers.

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anyone who claims the crusades were an attempt to trulydo God's will in the name of christianity is on crack, plain and simple. it went against everything the bible teaches. no major religion teaches to kill unbelievers, and that includes christianity.

do i see validity in your questions about other faiths, etc. yes, i do, definitely, and i've pondered the same thing many times before. i can't claim to know exactly who will or won't go to heaven, but indications in the bible are in line with what you asked your neighbor. i do question things like that in my faith, just like i hope everyone else does, if we didn't we wouldn't be human. but i still completely believe in God and the bible because everything else in has been true in my life, just because i don't agree with something doesn't mean its not true.

(just fyi, i don't ever "storm off". i tend to really tick off atheists/etc. in conversation because i very calming continue to discuss things when they get upset. it's actually kinda fun )

i can't, by any stretch of the imagination, believe that we're simply a collection of cells. i could go back to the old analogy of finding a watch on the beach. when you see that thing you immediately realize that it has a creator, that something had to make it because of its complexity, etc. yet we somehow assume people just "evolved" tho they're infinitely more complex. mm, ok.

insider, interesting stuff. there's another good book called "the science of God" by a guy named Gerald Schroder if you get more interested in the subject.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Perhaps we are a combination of evolution and religion. Why does one thing always have to be true? Why can't both of them be accepted? To believe that humans are special is simply selfish. If you think deers, and birds, and cats, and grass, and wind have no soul or power, you do not truly understand the power of nature. And without understanding the true power of nature, how can you understand the true power of God? The reason the world is in such a bad mess is because people think they are somehow superior to other animals. If we could just learn to accept that all things are equal, and that we can communicate with them like we can with each other, perhaps we would all see the importance of changing our destructive patterns that we apply to the many other creatures on this sacred planet. That is the only thing I see wrong with most religions. They make it out to seem that humans are somehow special. The only thing I see that is special about us is that we somehow have learned to ignore and destruct everything around us, even ourselves.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-23-2002).]

Now about that book, I've been reading it. Actually I was just about to finish it when I began to realize how much shit it was full of. Now because of that book I am even more a non believer. He kept on saying things but never backing them up, and the things he did back up didn't point out any reasons for me to believe anyway. And there were so so many misspelled words in there, almost like it wasn't edited. So I threw it away.

lovely, someone's distributing bad books that try to defend christianity if you want a well-written one that's actually a really good read try Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (yes, THAT C.S. Lewis).

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Actually Gilbert Nolander, that's the belief of my people...did you know that? We hold that all things are sacred, and that man is just a part of the whole thing. All things have souls, so deserve the same respect.

the way i look at god devel heaven and hell is like this...

i try to lead my life by the values taught to me by my parents (mom and dad both wen to church) but they didnt ram it down my throat, i did the sunday school thing as a kid some of it was quite cool. Religeon then started to play less and less a part in my life...

i dont say i believe 100% or disbelive 100% that there is or isnt a god/s i think personally at the end of the day we will find out one way or another if there is, but by that time it will be too late to tell anybody (unless you believe in re-incarnatio, but then would you remember what happened in the time after death to the time you were reborn)

its one of lifes big mystery's many have tried to prove or disprove it, none can and none will its a question of personal belief (faith), why bother bashing the fact that someone believes in something or doesnt believe in it, like i said we will find out so lets keep it that way..a mystery..

Gilbert, if you had a choice of saving two whales stuck in the ice of the Arctic OR one starving little girl in Ethiopia, how would you make your decision and what would it be?

InSiDeR, when I first read your post about the book, I knew you were going to do that. Now I want to know more than ever who the author was, do you have the title and author so I can look it up? Listen to Fig, he just gave you an excellent reference.

And I knew you were gonna respond like that lol. Well If I remember correctly it was Frank Herbert because my friend was confused with the writer of dune.

edit: well I am about to go to brazil for 10 days and I leave in about 5 hours so I can't take that oppertunity quite right now fig

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 05-23-2002).]

Frank Herbert??!!?? Now I am interested....

Have a good trip and take good care, InSiDeR. Try to find a 'puter when you're there and wish us all a bom dia! Oh, and take some good pictures and give me one for my puzzle.

Bugimus - I would save the kid and ask a friend to save the whales. If he coulnd't save them, I would ask him to get the dead whales so we could use their bodies for good things, and then I would call up all the oil companies and tell them to start using the free energy patents that they hold but will not use so that they can make large profits, and hopefully then the planet would not slowly die from the consumption of oil/gas/rock energy. Which really has nothing to do with this topic, but I sometimes ramble.

Shaman - Yes, I strongly believe in the Native American tradition, and all other natural beliefs. I would call myself shamanic, but I don't know how Native American's feel about white people being involved in their religion, so I just say I don't have a religion, but I read and practice Native beliefs and customs.

Quote "Organized religion preaches Order and Love but spawns Chaos and Fury." Kerry Thornley

Gilbert, I asked the hypothetical in order to see whether you really think all life is equally sacred. If you really believe that, then I would think one would have to choose the whales over the child because it's 2 lives instead of 1. So if you could only save the whales or the child, what would you do?

quote:

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Quote "Organized religion preaches Order and Love but spawns Chaos and Fury." Kerry Thornley

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This is not true in most cases, therefore this quote is false.

<cynic mode>
while whales (at least some of them) are nearly extinct,
the number of starving children in the third world is ever-increasing, so save the whales!
</cynic mode>

Sorry, I couldn´t resist

A cynic... ah yes, that is what an idealist calls a realist. W/o some humor in these types of threads, we would all end up shooting ourselves.

Hmmm...as long as you were willing to go through the process of actually becoming a Shaman (with all that it means...) Gilbert Nolander, I don't think that it would actually be a problem...and I certainly have no problem with that...however, even I baulk at becoming an 'actual' Shaman...do you have any idea what it means? I do, and am not certain if I am capable of becoming one...it's a much more difficult task as becoming, say, a priest...

Or maybe you mean the belief? No probs there, at all. Heh, I think the Celts were also so 'oriented' and they were white...don't think that skin color has anything to do with it, really.

Bugimus - I see. Well, I guess the child. Because a child can do much more to help protect the rest of the planet than two whales can.

webshaman - yes, it is a very hard path.

Well I am here in a 4 star hotel in Salvedor, I am in the billiards room and they have some 'puters here . I came to this forum first to see if you had anything to say about the book. It was by Frank Herbert I think, did I already say that? I dont know the resolution here is 640 by 480 it is just killing me, and I can't read portuguise and I cant change the resolution so my eyes are just gonna have to hurt. About that puzzle bugs, well on my way to salvador from my 3 day stay in Rio De Jeneiro I saw a spectacular veiw as the sun was setting. I was looking hard for my camera in the air plane but I couldnt find it lol. But I got one at night where the clouds were ever so soft and the water was strangly calm, it was almost like time had stopped. There was a full moon, almost black but slightly blue water with clouds postioned so still and so white that it looked like time had just stopped. I tell you it was very beautiful.

And I haven't seen wakkos yet by the way.

Most of us would save the child as it is a hard-wired response to preserve the species genes

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

You know, DL-44 never said why he didn't believe, I am kind of waiting for that.

*sigh*
*sigh*
*sigh*

Someone close this poor thread.

someone once said that the devils greatest trick was to convince humanity that he didn't exist. i say his greatest trick was to convince humanity he was god.

Welcome to the Asylum Dokuzetsu...enjoy the stay. What does your name mean, anyway? Just curious...

thanks Webshaman, my name means wicked or poisoned tongue

I think his greatest trick was to convince us there's plenty of time.

Welcome to the Asylum, Dokuzetsu.

. . : slicePuzzle

explain bugs

I've always loved this:

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There is a fable which tells of three apprentice devils who were coming to this earth to finish their apprenticeship. They were talking to Satan, the chief of the devils, about their plans to tempt and ruin men. The first said, "I will tell them there is no God." Satan said, "That will not delude many, for they know that there is a God." The second said, "I will tell men there is no hell." Satan answered, "You will deceive no one that way; men know even now that there is a hell for sin." The third said, "I will tell men there is no hurry." "Go," said Satan, "and you will ruin them by the thousand." The most dangerous of all delusions is that there is plenty of time. The most dangerous day in a man's life is when he learns that there is such a word as tomorrow. There are things which must not be put off, for no man knows if for him tomorrow will ever come.

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Bugs hit it right on...I asked my Dad, a pretty hardcore (yet cool) Christian what the Bible said was the Devil's greatest trick and he said that it is trying get people to think: "Well, maybe in a little bit," or, "I'll do it tommorow," or, "Just this once."

The attitude "I'll do it tommorow" doesn't ruin the world IMO, just makes people lazy.

Isn't that a yes or no question?
No.

-Stoners uncool signature-
I smoke weed because its the uncool thing to do which too damn cool for your uncool self, because I'm uncooler then you which makes me the coolest person around this uncool place so all you cool people are way behind in my coolness so get uncool or my uncoolness will rock your uncoolness and I will show your cool ass up and be the uncoolerone again which makes me the coolest kid because I'm so damn uncool from smoking pot

Actually...it was refferring to those statements in a religious context such as: Well, I'll follow God tommorow, or, I'll quit looking at porno tommorow

What does it mean to follow God? Isn't everything apart of God's plan, even Evil? If everything is apart of God's plan and made of God, is it really possible to not follow God? i mean if there was no evil, there would be no good. So therefor, everyone, even evil people, are following Gods plan, because seeing evil convinces people to follow God.

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[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 06-09-2002).]

That makes a really twisted sort of sense, Gilbert. but only if you believe in god

All journeys consist of individual steps...one after another. It is only when we look back, that we see how far we have gone...

And no, I don't believe in the devil....I think Mankind does a good enough job as it is...

quote:

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Isn't everything apart of God's plan, even Evil?

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I would say definitely not. Read Genesis and you will see that sin had not entered the world until we humans decided to give it a try. Once that happened *everything* was tainted by it's deadliness and that is why we even talk about needing salvation.

Uhhh...Bugs? Then when did the 'revolt' in Heaven start? I always thought that that was before Adam and Eve...after all, the 'serpent' in the Garden is supposed to be Satan, right? So that 'war' must have occured before Mankind was created...

Or is the Serpent someone/something else?

Do you know? Can you perhaps clarify this?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 06-14-2002).]

hum.
Very interesting.
Yes, when did the war in heaven start?

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The war in heaven started when Satan (Lucifer, The Devil, Whatever you want to call him, depending on your religion) tryed to gain power equal to God's. Satan gatherd followers, but God threw him out of Heaven.

It is impossible to know when this happened since Heaven and Hell have no time, and the no time thing really baffles me, because It's just so immense.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 06-14-2002).]

All this talk of the power of god and the devil. There are millions of people practising various arts of good and evil magik, but for all the ritual animal killings or candle burning, not one grain of sand has ever been moved by the power of magik.

I respect anyones wish to believe in God, the Devil or any of their psudonyms as long as they don't try to force their beliefs onto me. If I murder your family and say God made me do it, will God be put on trial? no, I'll be shunted into the looney bin until I become sane enough to say I did it by myself, then I'll be executed.

My personal belief is that we must live our lives as we see fit and neither blame nor praise a higher power when it all goes right or wrong. A life of religion is the ultimate gamble, you can spend your life worshipping in the hope that you'll go to heaven or spend it gambling and womanising and risk going to hell.

Funny thing though, there are millions of animals killing each other and doing bad things to each other for fun or food, are they all going to hell or don't animals count and if they don't count, then is this religion stuff only for species that have attained a certain intelligence?

I have a question for people who don't believe in a God, can you prove that he doesn't exist? I know for a fact that Bugs or Myself could come up with more proof that God exists than you can find to prove that he doesn't exist. It's a challenge: Go for it!

The burden of proof always is in the hands of the one making a positive claim. It's impossible to prove something does not exist if it can't be tested/observed.

Claim that reindeer can fly. I can line up some reindeer at the edge of a cliff and start pushing them off to see if they can sly. They all splat on the ground far below. I haven't proven that they couldn't fly. It would be up to the person making the claim to produce a bona fide flying reindeer that can be observed and tested.

I simply do not believe in god(s), devils, spirits, ghosts, alien abductions, etc.

My quick 2 cents.

Cell Number: 494

Actually, I'd say go for it, push all the reindeer off of a cliff and see what happens you just might be surprised!

cfb - i'm afraid it isn't that simple.

two people can use the same piece of 'evidence' to support two opposing ideas, simply because of their perspective.

I find the human body so absolutely amazing, such a wonderous creation, that i feel it is undeniable evidence of a supreme being.
The evolutionist uses this same amazment with the body to show how mystifying the evolutionary theory is.


____________
reitsma

Lord Stanley is God.

Lord Stanley's Cup is The Holy Grail.

What else is there....?

Hmmm...BeeKay, things can be proved without direct evidence...in that context I mean the 5 senses...take, for example, air. You can't see it, hear it, feel it, taste it, or smell it...but it exists...and atoms, quarks, and other such things...

Also, what is with abstract concepts...such as the mathematical i (sqr -1)?

So mostly, it's a question of whether or not there are presently means to prove something...that maybe we will have in the future...

Food for thought...

And as for reindeer flying...everything can fly...just in one direction...

Seriously, maybe someday we could genetically engineer a reindeer that could fly...
One should attempt to keep an open mind...what is generally not accepted as true today, could be proven true tomorrow...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 06-14-2002).]

quote:

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Seriously, maybe someday we could genetically engineer a reindeer that could fly...

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On TechTV I saw a program several years ago (I think) about a group of genetic researchers that crossbred a octapus and a bat and called it an octobat, it was essentially a hairless bat that could live underwater. Oh ya, and it was devoid of all though, emotion and sign of life. Mostly because it died in half a day

It can not be proven or disproven that God the creator exists. But to claim that spirits and spiritual energy also do not exist is simply an example of your lack of attachment to this other half of life. No big deal, these things do not need your acceptance to exist. I don't want to argure about it, because I know I could never convince you. Look into remote viewing (a scientific viewpoint) or look into Out of Body experiences (a more spiritual view) and you will see that we have spiritual energy that has the capability to leave the body and travel through the world without our bodies. There have been remote viewers who worked for the Gov't who used to go into enemy buildings and read documents in the astral form, and then report them back. Before this was done, the Gov't did experiments with this. In these experiments they would write down something on a piece of paper and put it in a locked room and tell the remote viewer to tell them what it said. After the Gov't trusted these experiments, they started using these people to unlock the secrets of foriegn gov't/enemies.

You can read all scientific stuff here: http://www.crvmanual.com/

Go here to learn more about spiritual side of it: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/Alfred.Ballabene/english/engindex.htm


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Gilbert: Of course we have spirits! That's common knowledge to anybody who takes part in religion, and it's not exactly all that hard to get me to beleive it since I already beleive that everybody has a soul. I'm also very open minded if I'm not in an argumentativve mood. Out of body experiences have been reported in just about every church, Christian, Catholic,, Musilim, Hindu etc...

Bugs, you still haven't answered my question...you still out there?

*starts searching nooks and crannies for Bugs* 'Here, Bugs, don't be afraid, I won't step on you, I promise!'

CFB: you cannot *prove* the existence of a 'god'.

You may be able to explain many of the things that cause *you* to believe that there is a god, but you cannot prove it's existence.

Bugimus has stated many very thoroughly researcehd explanations of biblical history and many examples to back up the reasons for his faith and beliefs, but I have never heard him say that any of those things *prove* him to be right.

You should take heed of his wisdom rather than tryin gto jump on his bandwagon....

And -

quote:

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Of course we have spirits! That's common knowledge to anybody who takes part in religion

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Just have to point out - AGAIN - that this is common belief, not common knowledge.

nevermind

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 06-20-2002).]

Welcome to the Asylum milktea

It?s interesting that this topic comes up so often on such a wide variety of bulletin boards. I?ve often seen these discussions devolve into a series of insults and flames so it?s nice to see the question hasn?t been so divisive here

To answer the initial forum question, my response is no. I lack belief in any sort of God, gods or supreme beings. Personally, I don?t believe it?s necessary to include a god in order to explain the beauty and wonder of our universe. I understand that there are some unanswered questions concerning scientific theories, but I?m content to accept, ?We don?t know yet? rather than resort to the supernatural for explanations. It?s my opinion that this earthly life holds enough fascination and I?d rather concentrate on living it to its fullest in an ethical way than worry about appeasing some hidden sky being.

It's certainly an interesting topic and I look forward to reading more of the formal debate in the other post

Amerasu - You will find that everyone here tries to leave their pride behind, and use their minds. At least that is what I have found in the last couple of weeks.

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WebShaman,

quote:

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Then when did the 'revolt' in Heaven start? I always thought that that was before Adam and Eve...after all, the 'serpent' in the Garden is supposed to be Satan, right? So that 'war' must have occured before Mankind was created...

Or is the Serpent someone/something else?

---

There is no specific time or date linked to references to this. In fact, there really aren't a lot of references to it. I could look into all the references we do have if you like. Either way, I agree that the revolt occurred prior to the garden. And, yes, the serpent represents Satan. Yup, yup, yup. When I said that sin had not entered the world until Eve decided to follow the serpent's lies, I meant *this* world. I didn't mean to say that any rebelion had never pre-existed the Garden of Eden. Is that what you were asking?

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 06-24-2002).]

Well, sort of. I had always thought that it must have occured before Adam and Eve...but after Genesis...thus, strange is the reference to original sin...

Strange is, that not much is really said about it...certainly not in the Old Testament...

One would think that there would be a major chapter devoted to it...but there isn't....

So anything you have on the subject would be interesting to me...

First of all god does exsist and its had been proven in many bibles if u understand reading them....
"In the beging god created heaven and earth" Almost every bible starts the same but what doest it mean. Probably as if this big guy had created himself a paradise in skies and a shit hole for us huh? But the real answear is that he created a space and planets....
I am not saying that u should start beliving into god right away. The most important thing is to live a good life and be happy whatever u do.

The scientist have also found an arc high in the mountains where the water never meant to excist. And the story comes from bible about Moses.... I guess you have heard!
Anyway these are just few exemples but dont worry man he just gave as a free will and what it really means that its up to us to decide how we want to live our lives what choices we wanna make and so on . Immagine if we were manipulated like stupid pupets we would live like a goddamn monkeys fucking and eatind other stuff everyday.
Dont hate him if someone dies , death is a natural way of saying "slowdown u have done too much"

Uhhh...yeah. Whatever.

Welcome to the Asylum...

BTW...if that which they found really is the Arc...then the Bible is wrong...because it is much too small to carry all those animals...of course, that's only if one takes the Bible literally...

Though I find the Bible (and all 'Holy' books) to be an interesting read...I hardly find any real evidence in them for a God...

So back to the original question...when did the battle take place between God and Satan...and why is it pretty much ignored in the Old Testament?

Ruski: Its not clear what you are referring too (as there have been lots of claims) but the latest claims for an Ark on Mount Arrarat (if you are ever in the area you should go and see it it is amazing ) have been disproved - its just a 'fossilised' mud slide.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Awww...Emps, you shouldn't 'pop' his bubble like that...now he's going to need the next 10-20 years to get his life back together...

In case he's wondering, here's a link for all your non-creationistic needs... http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-mustread.html

I really love this link...

Enjoy!

Oh.. Well even if I am religious I still find a lot of stuff confusing. Like Adam and Eve were gods first creations, but the first humans where this goddamn monkey looking guys....I still dont get it? Anyway I find more facts in science.....

WS, there are some very good articles on that site you just cited. Did you see the one about how Xianity and Evolution don't necessarily oppose one another? As the site points out, there is a big difference between Creation Science and Theistic Evolution.

. . : slicePuzzle

Yup. Like I said, I really like that site.

So, when did the 'battle in Heaven' occur?

If it did, it happened before the Garden of Eden story. Genesis starts out with the creation of the world itself followed closely by Adam and Eve and the serpent (Satan) appears in the garden. So since Satan's current predicament resulted from the war in heaven then it had to have occurred prior to Adam and Eve.

You mentioned original sin earlier. The doctrine of original sin refers to the sin of Adam and not the sin of any participants in the war in heaven.

Revelation 12 mentions the war: http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=REV+12&language=english&version=NIV &showfn=on&showxref=on

Here are couple other references: [url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2+pet+2%3A4&NIV_version=yes&language=english]http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2+pet+2%3A4&NIV_version=yes&language=english[/UR L]
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=jude+6&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=1 9&y=10

[edit]WS, I've been doing just a little looking into this and it seems much of the common views on the war in heaven come from the Book of Enoch. That's part of the Apocrypha, you know the books in the Catholic bible but not the Protestant one? Here's a link for background on it: http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/enochs2.htm

And here's the book itself: http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/enoch1b.htm

There's a lot there to digest. I'm rushing through this so I hope I'm not getting too sloppy in my replies. And don't worry, I've been pondering my response to the formal debate... that question has got my little gray cells going into overdrive

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 07-12-2002).]

Ok , thanks Bugs...but this puzzles me

quote:

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4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment;

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For here it mentions sin...but apparently, this happens before Original Sin...I take it that Original Sin then refers to Mankind only?

Then why is it called Original Sin and not 'The first sin of Mankind'? Or is that just semantics?

I always thought that only Mankind was given the ability of free choice...but apparently, this is not the case...it would appear that Angels also have this ability...

Yes, Original Sin refers to mankind's sin. Paul talks about this in his letter to the Roman church. Here's a bit of it:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=ROM+5:12-19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

It's called original sin because of verse 12 I just linked. Sin began with the first man Adam. The words "original sin" are not found in the Bible just as you won't find the word Trinity. They're just names that Xian theologians have given concepts that are there.

When it comes to whether angels have free choice or whatever. I really think that belongs in the realm of speculation because the Bible itself doesn't really go into the details of it. I'm not sure how much of what we know about angels is based in Hebrew myth and how much is actually truth.

Why is it (and thanks for the link...interesting) that there is relatively no real information on Angels (who/what they are, etc)?

The other question is then, that the 'fallen' angels...are they then demons? Devils? I thought there was only supposed to be one Devil (satan). But these other Angels are in hell, as well (according to that link you posted over the war in heaven). How many are there? I mean, how many angels are there, anyway? Can they reproduce? What kind of beings are they? Are they of pure energy, or what?

I mean, it is curious, that the whole thing is not explained in the Bible...

I always thought that the angels were the Seraphim and had lived and walked the earth until they were called to heaven. I believe this was supposed to have occurred before the ?war in heaven? that resulted in the casting down of the fallen star, Satan. The Seraphim being the first age in some Xian beliefs. I really don?t have any basis for this but I seem to remember pulling it out of Genesis somewhere.

As far as fallen angels? I think what you call them is irrelevant. They are fallen angels whether you call them demons or devils or not. Even if they are demonstratively devil?s, Satan can still be THE devil without conflicting with the belief that there is only one Devil. As far as the number of angels and fallen angels? I couldn?t hazard a guess? so I?ll keep my mouth shut.

Just some background ?

I?m Pagan? most closely related to Wicca. I believe in some higher power based in nature. I believe in reincarnation. I don't believe in Hell or Heaven. I believe that theology is better than religion and, yes, there is a difference. My biggest issue with religion is that it offers up a shield for all of the masses that don't want to be responsible for what they do. "The devil made me do it" or "I'll just repent for what I've done" as excuses come to mind. I don?t think that anyone is wrong in their beliefs. I won?t chastise anyone for not believing what I believe and I hope they return the favor. If God is so good wouldn?t he present himself in as many ways as possible to "save" as many of us as he could? My Deities have a different face than yours but they?re the same thing. When you get down to the REAL precepts of almost all religions they all say the same thing.

?Try to be nice to each other?

I hope I?ll be able to be around to answer questions and respond frequently. It?s been a long time and my Debate Engine is a little rusty.


BWT: I have a theory or two.

1) You can relate the papal structure to a medival Kingdom with a surprising amount of accuracy. If you view the Pope as a King and the Arch Bishops and their Dioces as the Vassal lords it starts to fall into place. Do you realize what that makes us? Peasants. Well... at least we aren't sheep anymore. We still give our money to the Vassal Lord so they can tythe to the king. They tythe in order to have his protection. It seems to be evident in the molestation cases here in America.

2) My other theory has to do with the adamant denial of evolution by most Xians. I think their vehemence comes from the "created in God's image" statement in the Bible. They believe we were created to look like God. If we have evolved from whatever he created us as we have evolved BEYOND God. They have certain issues with this I imagine. What I think is really meant by that statement is that we were created in God's vision. He wanted us to be... say, a single celled organism. So we were. After that he left us alone for a few million years and lo and beyold... here we are trying to confuse things today.

Just my drop in the bucket.

GrythusDraconis

I suggest some good reading matirial for all of you, go out and buy a Cabalah book. It is very interesting how math ties in to religion. I have read 3 Cabalah books already and am still reading another. They talk about Pentagrams and Hexagrams and the laws of Phi, and how several spritual things relate using alpha numbers and tarot cards. Very interesting, religios or non religios the Cabalah is influentual.

Do a search for holographic paradigm. It's some pretty interesting stuff. If true, then God is the best computer programer ever, and we are just all apart of a giant hologram.

Oh yea, also. I have not had a computer for a while, I just moved to Washington DC and just got things rolling again. Have a good day.