Topic awaiting preservation: Jesus and Lucifer the same person?

http://vandruff.best.vwh.net/dialogs_morningstar.html

I found this rather interesting, and was just wondering if anyone knew more about the name 'morning star' and if it perhaps refers to other people. Like maybe Buddha, and all those other religious leaders all have the name morning star. I do not really know anything about this, but am very interested. Any info you guys have on the morning star would be of interest to me.

Thanks.

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As far as I know, its a...well....star.

Seriously, I have no idea...maybe Bugs?

I dunno... I think the link explained it fairly well, though (the one instance where the term "morning star" was used to describe the devil was mocking him). Of course, it also depends on whether or not you take the Bible as an authoritative source. If you don't, then it doesn't really matter.

[Edit: Hey WS, when did you move to the Happy Hunting Grounds? Ostfriesland got a bit boring, huh?]



Cell 270

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 05-28-2002).]

Well, this page *certainly* isn't saying that Jesus == Lucifer. It's just pointing out the fact that a name commonly used to describe Jesus is, at one point, used to describe Lucifer. And it seems to me that at that one point where he's described as so, it's in the context of describing his fall. Notice that "morning star" in the Isaiah passage given isn't capitalized, as it was when referring to Jesus. Seems to me that it's being used as sort of a metaphor rather than a title.

Gilbert, first off let me just tell you that it is extremely unlikely this refers to Buddha.

During Isaiah's time Assyria had conquered Judah *and* Babylon. But a century later, Babylon was the conquering nation. It is very possible this reference to the "morning star" was meant for the leader of Babylon at that time, Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon was soon to be defeated by Cyrus of Persia. Isaiah 14:12 is foretelling the fall of Babylon. Ok, so there's some background on the history.

The Hebrew word used here is "helel" which literally means "The Shining One". It likely refered to the planet Venus. Venus is the brightest planet in our sky. During the right time of year it can be seen in the morning hours preceeding the sunrise. The word "Lucifer" comes from latin translations of the verse where it means "light bringer". Interestingly, the same word is translated as Phosphoros in Greek translations. This is the only place this Hebrew word is used in the Bible.

I think the context of this chapter most likely refers to the King of Babylon. Just like Venus, or The Morning Star, is soon overpowered by the daylight, so to would Babylon be eclipsed by Persia. But there are also things attributed to Nebuchadnezzar that seem very unearthly like equating himself with the Most High and being fallen from Heaven and such. So it may be that he was seen to be an instrument of Satan himself during this time and so we can sort of overlay these descriptions of both of them from these verses in Isaiah chapter 12.

I disagree with the conclusions of that page you linked. He says that "lucifer" is an odd transliteration but he really doesn't back that up. From what I can see, "light bringer" "lucifer" "day star" "morning star" are all valid translations of the original meaning of "helel".

He then interprets Isaiah 14:12 as referring to the beast mentioned in Revelation. That totally ignores the stuff I just mentioned above. I find it surprising the author of the page never even mentions Babylon or any of the historical context of Isaiah. Not good, that. So now I'm wondering if that was more information than you really wanted

. . : slicePuzzle

Once again, Bugimus to the rescue.

BTW, in what actual verse does the word "lucifer" appear? Is it the one quoted, and this is just a different translation?

Well suho, I decided to move to the happy hunting grounds because of certain events that have taken place here in the Asylum...

@Bugs - thanks Bugs, I knew you would have a better reply than I about this subject...

@Gilbert...whoops! It's a planet, not a star....

quote:

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"O' Lucifer" in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary, is number 1966. "Heylel, hay-lale', from 1984, (in the sense of brightness); the morning star-lucifer." Lets go to # 1984; "Halal, haw-lal', a prime root, to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color), to make a show or to boast, thus to be clamorously foolish; to rave." This is why Satan is called the son of the morning, or the morning star.

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quoted from here

I remember reading in a cult website once about hell, and I remember that lucifer meant light bringer or something, and that poeple commonly mistake lucifer as satan, but I don't think that they are the same person.

Slime, the actual word is found in Isaiah 14:12. For our English translations it's a question of how to translate the word "helel" from the Hebrew which means "light bringer". We get the word "lucifer" from earlier Latin translations of the Bible which was probably used when creating the King James Version. Here are a few examples:

NIV
NASB
KJV
Young's Literal

Thanks Bug and others, I sort of thought that Lucifer was not actually the devil, just a confusion made by Christians. And I never knew that the soul 'morning star' refered to helel. The thing about Buddha was that I was wondering if perhaps the morning star is a soul that is always alive, inside different people. For example, there are some Native American stories that the Morning Star was alive and in the US around the 1890's or so. They don't ever mention his name, I guess to protect his family, but I always found this to be very interesting. For more info on the morning star of the native american's you can go here.
http://www.wovoca.com/messiah.htm

Scroll down real far until you get to "Porcupine's account of seeing Christ in Nevada:"
Now they don't mention the word morning star or anything, this is just a theory of mine, that the morning star is sort of like the Dahli Lahma. (please excuse my spelling if it is wrong.)




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Uhhh...good to see that none of my people are in the list....sounds like bull**** to me...

I was discussing this topic with a Celtic friend of mine who said that the morning star is the soul of the sun. He said that the morning star has been around forever and ancient greeks, and everyone has always worshipped him/her, some times people do not even know who they are. He was saying how Jesus never fully understood who he truly was because he did not have access to the right books and info. But in reality he was one of a long line of people who have been the physical body of the Morning Star. I found this to be very interesting. So basically, according to him, all cultures have worshipped the Morning Star, its just that some cultures did not realize the true nature of the name, and sometimes the people who's soul is called Morning Star do not ever realize it. Like how native americans have to go on a quest to discover the name of their soul, so it is very difficult to do, and most people do not even know it is possible.

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Ugh, I just don't know where to begin.

. . : slicePuzzle

I do, your friend is full of shit just kidding. Personally I can say I have never heard that theory before... I think what he was trying to say is that the morning star has been the soul of many people and jesus was declared one of them although he did know know of himself ot be? Now that just contradicts a shitload of the bible, tell your friend to get wired to the asylum so we can smack some sense into him

First of all Gilbert, my people don't go on a quest to discover the true name of their soul...where did you pull that one out of? They go on a quest, if you will, to discover their totem animal...which is a soul-brother...

Naming is a totally different thing...and has three phases. The true name is decided at birth, and is a secret name, that is not used (well, it has uses, but is not used publically). The child recieves at birth the child name, as well, that is held until the ritual of manhood/womanhood. After completion of the ritual, the adult name is then given. Note that the true name never changes.

Yea, I think I need someone to just follow me around and smack me on the head all the time. Also, I'm not saying that Jesus did not know he was the Morning Star, what I meant is that he did not realize he was the same as all the ancient Sun Gods, like Ra and whatnot. And the reason you have never heard of this theory is because I made it up, I just figured if i made it seem like someone else made it up you would look at it differently.

Webshaman - I read it in a book called Native Healer by Grizzlybear Lake. I thank you though for clearing that up for me, perhaps what I interpreted to be his trying to discover his true name, was actually him trying to dicsover his totem animal's name. Also, who gives the birth name? Is it the parents, or the tribe leader, or perhaps their ancestroral spirits? I have never heard of this, it is rather fascinating.

Thanks.

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[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-31-2002).]

Inventing your own independant theory! I like that! I do it all the time! Look back on my do you believe in god thread...

I met Jesus once...but he told me his
name sounded more like HeyZeus...was in
Mexico.

Gilbert, do you really believe Jesus was the same as all other ancient gods? Or are you just making that up to see what kind of reaction you get?

I doubt it has anything to do with reaction. I also don't see any difference between the christian mesiah or any other religions leaders, or god(s). And I think Gilbert had a great point when saying that you don't believe it when *he* makes it up... (I doubt I need to finish that).

Dan, Christ was the only religious leader from the world's major religions to claim the He was the Almighty. There really are differences there if you care to take a look. And you may have taken my last post about not knowing where to begin as dismissing the Indian account, when what I was really referring to was the casual equating of different cultures and religious beliefs over centuries of history. It turns out he just made it up, so I can see my comment was well placed. I'm kind of surprised you would criticize me for wanting more data when presented with a new idea.

As far as Porcupine's account of seeing Christ in Nevada is concerned, I found it very interesting that some Mormons were present at that gathering. They believe that after Christ left the Middle East that He came to the Americas and preached to the native peoples here. I can't help but wonder if they had any influence on the account at all.

Whoa, slow down a second. I wasn't criticizing you, I was defending Gilbert from you accusing him of trying to create confilct. My comments on how "you" believe were general to all humans, and not there to accuse you, personally, of anything. I probably should have used a different word.
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Oops

Well, it wouldn't have been the first time I've jumped the gun on something. Sorry Dan. I guess I am very frustrated at some of the stuff Gilbert was saying because I was getting the impression he was glossing over a lot of stuff we do know about history. I was really hoping to get him to explain that some more to us.

Dan you'll have to watch out for bugs, he's strict on his religion principles, of course so am I

Bugimus - No I am not making it up, I really believe it.

And Ra said the same thing, and tons of other ancient Gods, Jesus has not been the only one to have claimed to have been the Almighity. Have you ever heard of Albert Pike, he started free masonry. He also believed this, what about David Kerish (or however you spell it) Was he not also killed like Jesus? People say he was crazy because our government says it. How do we really know? We don't.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 06-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 06-01-2002).]

"People say he was crazy because our government says it. How do we really know? We don't."

Ya, especially considering we're in the Asylum!

~licks the wall
shuffles away looking for that good looking nurse with the crayons*
where is she?

Ok, I'm not touching the Jesus stuff...Bugs knows his stuff in that area, trying to 'pin' him down there is like wrestling with an elephant..you are bound to lose...and, of course, his faith is strong...

However, on the Indian stuff...especially when it comes to my people, that's a different story. Which tribe does Grizzlybear Lake come from? I don't know the name...could be he's not Cherokee...and tribes differ greatly in the naming rituals...maybe in his tribe they do do it that way...I'm not an expert on all tribes and their rituals...don't know if anyone is...

My people normally consult a Shaman for the true name...where he gets it...I don't know...I'm not a Shaman...and those are Shaman secrets, only shared between Shamans...so if you really want to know, consult a Cherokee Shaman...

To wrap things up...go get him, Bugs!

Bugs I just noticed something, you opposed GN's theory because it meant christ was the only worldwide "god" that claimed he was the almighty, so it would mean they weren't similar at all. But when you think about it, he was a human (or in a sense), and not any of the other ones (atleast I think) were human, so as a human he had a human personality

Insider - All legends are based on facts. Here is some info on Amon Ra, who was believed to be a human, well sort of. Anyway, most people do not or will not believe this next article, but feel free to read it. And keep in mind the people who study this stuff are scientists, not psychos. Well, actually: they may be psycho scientists.
http://www.ra-horakhty.co.uk/workshops/amonra_the_lord_giver.htm

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i'm afraid the author of that site doesn't know much of what he's talking about. he has some facts and he's woven them into a theory. i was especially amused at his 'origin of the universe' where he claims god is light, and since protons are made of photons, all matter is made of light and consequently of god. protons are made of quarks! not mention he ignored electrons and neutrons, which are the other two-thirds of matter. i can go on, but i don't feel like boring everyone here.

maybe quark is the scientific name for God? Are electrons and neutrons also made of quarks?

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Yes.

interesting. Do quarks have the same internal structure as atoms? If so, then that is pretty cool. Our solar system is set up like an atom. I wonder if also our galaxy is part of a huge atom. Up the ladder, down the ladder. Perhaps we are just a period on a bill board in some giant galaxy, on some strange planet. I hope they don't paint over it.

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Gilbert -> Google -> Quarks...

A very good way to find the information you want...give it a try...

yea, thats true.

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