Topic awaiting preservation: What is an African American? (Page 2 of 2)

WS: Yeah, umm... having grown up in Guam for the first developmental 9 years of my life, the complete anti-American/anti-White tones felt there still reverberate through me. Don't get me wrong, I loved the island. Really did. The sun, the beaches, my (few) friends... thems were the good parts. The reverse racism taken to an extreme (nevermind that I was literally the only white kid throughout elementary and middle school) that was less than favorable. The fact that I was the fat white kid... yeah, I'm sure everyone gets the picture.

Though I don't harbor any bad feelings towards the Chamorro culture itself (seriously, anyone here had red rice and lumpia? Holy crap, man... that's good eatin'), just some of the people. Moreover, how they treated me specifically because I was white. I remember an instance of hearing one of my middle school teachers go off on a rant, perhaps "forgetting himself" for a moment and verbally lashing out at how the 'white man destroyed the island'. Needless to say, I didn't do very much for an A in that class. Nor did I have the balls to bring up the fact that we liberated the island from the Japanese in WW2.

But that's neither here nor there.

Purpose of this post?

I think everyone who looks down on another person because of race should experience racism for themselves. Puts things in a better light, in my opinion anyways. Done. Rant over. I'll return to my cell and count the spots on my mumu now...

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

yeah, another problem is the common use of terms like "reverse racism".
No such thing.
This just strives to put whites in an even further bad light, as if whites are the harbinger of all things racist.

Reverse racism, regular racism, racism unleaded... it all sucks.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

Racism in itself is a stupid concept. How does someone become inferior based upon the colour of their skin? In fact, if anything, those with dark skin are superior to Aryan types in certain ways. The dark skin means that the skin cells contain a large amount of melanin (this is also what gives you freckles), therefore protecting the skin against harmful radiation. That is a good and honest fact. Dark-skinned people are less susceptible to sunburn and skin cancers than white Americans and Europeans. But back to the point, I don't see why the people in the earlier centuries saw people with dark skin as inferior. Are we really so arrogant? When the aliens finally do arrive, will we mock their grey skin or extra eyes? Will we continue to hate each other for stupid reasons?

See the answer right after a word from our sponsers...

quote:

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Are we really so arrogant?

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Indeed. And then some. The simple example of racism is but a small trifle in the vast arrogance of white European (and on through American) history.

Just two quick question.

Why is it that in America, 2/3 of the population is white, yet 2/3 of the crimes are commitied by African Americans?

Why is it that in black areas people are killing each other in the streets, and in white areas, people play baseball in the streets?

I have nothing against any one based on color, its just something that has always confused me.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-01-2002).]

A very ignorant question.

In highly congested inner city areas, people commit far higher levels of crime.

It just so happens that in the early -mid parts of this century, those were the only places where blacks could find a home. So you have a higher concentration of blacks in such areas.

Have you ever been to a trailer park? Go visit a few predominately white trailer parks, and I gaurantee you will have a far different view. Or, spend some time around the white populations in the inner cities....or for that matter, visit any group of people who are crowded into small areas and with feable economic conditions.

You will quickly see that it has nothign to do with race, and much to do with circumstances.

I don't know what planet you're on (or which tv channel you get your prespective from...) but I've seen plenty of stickball or street hockey games in the city, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people playing have been black/hispanic/oriental and even the occasional white guy.

I've also seen plenty of drunk beligerant rednecks beating the shit out of people and stabbing/shooting/running over each other.

I could go on for hours I suppose, but hopefully you are beginning to see some sort of pattern and/or a point here.....?

The numbers don't lie and there are reasons for the disparity. None of them are due to race. It might be a very constructive conversation to have. In order to fix problems, it helps to know what is causing them in the first place.

Well, you see, ahh, yea. I just asked a question, you know.

Good answer, DL



On a side note...

You know you've spent too much time on the computer when you spill milk and the first thing you think is, 'edit, undo.'

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-01-2002).]

I guess I just have a big problem with this train of thought -

quote:

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Why is it that in black areas people are killing each other in the streets, and in white areas, people play baseball in the streets?

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Where do you get such concepts?

Obviously not from any sort of attentive observation of reality.

Agreed. Nice point, DL.

Maybe someone should spend some time on an indian reservation...

Well, from the news..of course...

But the point is, Black people commit more crimes than white's, there are way more black people in jails than whites, yet there are more white people than Blacks in America. Now you can blame it on circumstances or location, or whatever; but I'm not sure about all of that. I just don't know. I mean we are all from the same planet, there are buses you can take that go anywhere, there are always jobs available. Now, I'm not trying to be rascist or anything like that, its just that it seems like black people, on average, commit more crimes than whites. There is no reason for crime, none. And which ever reasons you proceed to give me, I will still say why? Why do people choose crime and hurting others over getting a real job and working for your money? And why does it seem like the majority of people who commit crimes are blacks? Is it because of the fact that the laws are not fair? Is it because laws are made to get blacks in trouble? I just don't understand... Why are our jails filled of blacks?

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-02-2002).]

I don't have the time or energy to answer this as it needs to be answered. There's a lot to say. But I believe the following two reasons account for much of the problem you cite, GN.

Drug possession laws have filled out jails with far more young black males than is helpful. Rehabilitation makes far more sense for possession offenses.

I said before, the numbers do not lie. But more specifically, young black males represent the majority of offenders. And I believe the primary and by far the most prominent reason for that is the high rate of "fatherlessness" in the black community. We have totally underestimated the importance of fatherhood when it comes to curbing young boys from committing crimes.

Yea, I guess your right Bug's.

The more I think about it, the more I realize how important it was for me to be with my father. When I was younge I was quite a fighter, but my Dad taught me against it. No telling what would of happened if he had not pursuaded me away from that, and I guess if I had lived in an area where guns often solved fights, well...who knows. Anyway, yea... I don't really know where I was going with this to begin with.

-^^-
--::--
\___/

quote:

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We have totally underestimated the importance of fatherhood when it comes to curbing young boys from committing crimes.

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As a society we have completely underestimated the importance of fatherhood when it comes to all things. A single mother is bound to fail in my eyes. There are exceptions, however. But the child won't have experienced many of the things that are essential in growing up. (At least in my eyes.) But then the things I'm talking about can also be applied to "whole" families, just not as many. What are these things that I'm talking about children missing out on? Well, punishment for one. Whippings are good. I can't tell you how many times I got knocked around, but in the long run, I'm glad it happened. And don't give me any of this "child abuse" garbage. Child abuse is when you beat on a kid with no proper justification. And you can't just go wailing on him without setting down the rules long before.

But I digress... Actually I forgot what the conversation was about now... Just saw that line and went off

And now, back to your regular scheduled program.

[edit: grammer...]

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 10-02-2002).]

Perspective, Gilbert.

You say that as you sit fully able to take advantage of many of the opportunities around you.

While it looks good on paper to say that a young black man in the inner city living in utter squalor has the same opportunities, it simply doesn't work out that way in the real world.

"From the News, of course"

Well, where you get your news makes a huge difference as to how indepth and how accurate the information is.

I just can't fathom how it is that you can't grasp the concept of how much your living conditions, parental conditions, school system quality in your area, the ease of attaining drugs, the ease of attaining weapons, the lack of support, lack of inspiration, can effect the way you live your life.

There is also racism to blame. You can't tell me that there haven't been coutless situations where a black man has been convicted when a white man committing the same act would have been let go.

And again, there is the simple fact that the percentage of blacks to whites in impoverished areas is much higher, and for no better reason than the fact that blacks were pushed into such areas decades ago.

This simple fact is the basis of everything:

look at white areas that are in similar conditions as poor black gettos, and you see white men committing the same crimes as black men.

Put any group of people in the such an environment, and high crime rates will result. PERIOD. Whether or not you feel that anyone would be justified in committing a crime.

Perspective.

Live in fear of being randomly shot through your living room wall.
Live in fear of the drug dealers, muggers, prostitutes and corrupt police who infest your neighbourhood.
Live not knowing a father, as bugimus said. Or, live with a fear of your father because he is a violent alcholic/drug addict.
Live in fear of not having food to eat at any given time, or of not having clothes to wear that fit you, or of your neighbors and peers beating/stabbing/raping/shooting or otherwise harming you on a daily basis, in fear of so many other things that are simply reality where you live, and tell me your views would not change.

Live through that from birth to 18, and tell me you could sit there and say the things you are saying now.

Some still can. Not many. But those ones still say it with a hardness and an understanding and a longing that you don't.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-02-2002).]

Thanks DL.

And then try an indian reservation...for a desolatation of the mind, body and soul the likes you have never seen. Where the only thing that reminds one that he/she is alive is the hurt...and even that is barely felt through the numb veil of existence. Aimless existence...full of drugs, violence, alcohol, abuse...repeat. Death is a welcome escape...if you have ever heard of 'indian rulette', then imagine that it actually happens...every day. Unemployment the likes you've never seen. Misery. Sickness. Despair. Horror. Repeat. Every new day...repeat.

Those who actually survive this...madness...are far and few between. The question is, after all that, are they the lucky ones...? Pent up rage, hopelessness, disgust, sadness....dis-jointedness. And then the racism...and the 'glass ceilings'...and being 'put in a box'...man, how I hate that...you know, how indians are depicted, running around slapping their hands to their mouths to make that whooping sound...indians never did that...the sound is made with the tongue...it's just that whites never learned that. Stupidest, most demeaning gesture I've ever seen. And, of course, being lumped into the group...'Oh, you're indian...cool. So like, you guys kicked Custers ass, right?' No, not my tribe...

Now, go live in the Ghetto for a couple of years...after totally ruining your credit rating for life...and run up an impressive criminal record, so that you'll never get a decent job. Nope, you're not allowed to take any money with you. Penniless. Oh, and let someone smack you hard in the head a couple of times to 'dislodge' that education that you have...you're not allowed to see your parents or family again, or friends (to simulate them either being dead, addicted to drugs, in prison, etc). So...we'll see what you become after that...and to what lengths you're willing to go to survive.

Because that's what it is about. The bottom line. Survival. How long can you survive? Don't even worry about tomorrow, you have it hard enough just getting through today. And tonight.

DL-44 your list is good, let me add to it:

Live in a world where your parents don't pay any attention to you- They've already given up on life.

Live knowing you have no hope of ever going to college.

Live in a world where you are not likely to see the age of twenty-one.

Be bombarded with images constantly showing that the measure of your worth is the amount of posessions you have. know that you will never have these things and are therefore worth nothing.

Live in a world where, with the police, your rights are a flexible thing. They would never bounce a white suburban
kid off the hood their.

Live in a place where you can here every scream, fight, and abuse your neighbors fling at each other.
Go to school where the teachers dont care and the books are 10 years old and tattered.




-tiki, cell 478

Any black people on this forum?

We're all African.

Race is a myth.

Yeah, but apparently skin color isn't.

Sad...

Meta - that's another one of those things that sounds great in theory, but doesn't work in the real world.

(not that you can't hold that belief and live that way, but the rest of the world simply does not).

Ummm, yea - DL - I think I agreed with all of that already, but thanks for clarifying.

Ok, I got one...

Try growing up in a white suburb, knowing your whole life that you are going to be a slave to the corporate giant,
sitting behind a desk for 8 hrs a day. Being a worker bee, working for the queen, with no goal in mind.
Constantly bombarded your entire life with fake morals, and a false sense of reality. Living your life behind a mask of lies.

Well, this isn't to bad actually. thanks for the info. guys.

You see, luckily, unlike most people, when I hear something that is true, I change my perspective. So, umm yea. I am glad I grew up in the suburbs, where the only worry was the crazy next door neighbor dog.

Metahedron - Are we all African? - See Below... http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,50896,00.html

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-03-2002).]

Hehe..

Well, I guess that is a bit of an explanation of the problem

No, you didn't agree with "all of that" you agreed with a one line statement from Bugimus about the importance of having a father. That doesn't begin to touch on all the other issues I mentioned.

But if your perspective is sufficiently changed, so be it

However, the fact that your perspective can be so radically changed so easily is obviously a big part of why you so readily believed that the numbers you quoted so obviously spoke of some sort of racial difference as well....

merr... what a thread. I've got so many thoughts floating around on this one, but can't quite manage to conglomerate them all, so I'm doing my best here.

I'm (as noted earlier) mixed, black & white. I've grown up in a variety of different situations: all black neighborhoods, all white neighborhoods, inner city (complete with rats in the backyard, drugs in my own home, and my next-door neighbor being stabbed 17 times on my front lawn), and rural areas (where I was the only mixed kid, and two other black kids attended my school). My mother left my father when I was three, and the last time I saw him was when I was 10. It was a court hearing for child support (much of which he still owes). During that time I've dealt with a heroin-addicted mother, lack of a father figure, often poverty-like conditions (read: not sure if I was going to have dinner that night), among many other things that I'd rather not go into. My mom kicked her heroin addiction six years ago, and almost relapsed last year when her boyfriend died of an OD (they met through NA).

That leaves me rather opinionated on just about everything that's been said here, so I'm just going to kind of relate to everything that's been said (rather than get in a number argument). Mostly I'd like to touch on the fatherless childhood point.

quote:

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A single mother is bound to fail in my eyes.

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Not sure who said it, but that's not important of course. I grew up under a single mother, and I must say... she didn't fail (it sounds conceited, but whatever). I've been rather successful (graduated from high school, attending a prestigious university, working for a large auto company) up until this point, and I plan on keeping the same path. She certainly didn't fail in teaching me right from wrong; I'll never touch a single illegal drug for as long as I live (and if they legalize any of the currently illegal drugs, I still won't touch them; my life means too much to me and my future family). IMO it's bullshit to predict a child's "success rate" by whether or not they were raised by a single parent.

Of course, maybe I'm just an exception.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll begin on the striking differences between seeing your future as a "worker bee" and not knowing what the future holds for you, or if you even have one.

Anyway... I'm done.

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 10-04-2002).]

Hey Raptor, nice to see you in the Philosophy area, for a change.

To your post - I certainly know where you are coming from, I am also from a single parent home, I've never known my father. That said (and as a father myself), I do realize what the others are implying. A child from a single parent home, esp. one where only the mother is present, is faced with many more difficulties as a child born into a 'solid, working' family, with both parents. This is naturally because of the economic conditions, and because of the almost impossible task of both earning money, and being both parents in one...i.e. filling both roles for the child in question. It is a rare person, that can accomplish all that. Most fall far short of the mark...not because they are bad, or do not want to be a good parent, but because they are hopelessly overwhelmed by the situation. That, and dealing with the entire emotional part of it, as well.

So, yes, I do think you are an exception to the rule...but answer me this - have you not had to work twice as hard as the others, to be 'normal'? Do you not 'drag around' emotional baggage from your childhood, that others do not? Were you 'forced' to grow up earlier than others, because of your childhood experiences? If you can say yes to one (or more) of these questions, then you can consider yourself a person coming from a dysfunctional family (the 'formal' term for it). I am. I know this. I have worked very hard on myself to compensate for it. You see, much of this 'emotional baggage' is hard-wired...because it happened at a time when your brain was still growing, making connections. Realizing this helps, but still, often I find myself reacting to a situation in a way I don't like...because of this (for example, I can become very aggressive for little reason, and tend to become obsessive). Also, I have noticed that I 'fall in love' with the wrong women...women that are bad for me. I had to re-learn what love truly is, and re-train myself in this regard. Abuse is not love, but my 'hard-wired' brain thought it was...took me a long time to realize and acknowledge this. Took even a longer amount of time to re-train myself.

So even though I love my mother, and have great respect for her, and what she went through for us children, I also recognize (and we've talked about this together many times), that yes, she did the best that she could, under the circumstances...but...it wasn't the best possible upbringing...or anything near it. I can distinctly remember being locked in a closet for three days, because one of my mother's boyfriends were beating the s**t out of my mother, and then wanted to do me in. My mother 'sacrificed' her own body for mine...and traumatized me in that closet, so that I would live, survive. Though I have long forgiven her for that, the experience remains 'hard-wired' into my brain. For the longest time in my life, I viewed all men as enemies...deadly ones. The mere physical presence of a man would set off my alarm bells, invoking an aggressive reaction from me. Adrenaline would race through my body, my 'fight-or-flight' mechanisms were activated. I nearly ended up killing one of my mothers later boyfriends with a knife when I was 16 because of such...though he dearly deserved it, the bastard. I rarely had male friends. In sport, I was way over aggressive. I would pick fights in school with the biggest guy, over nothing. It took me a very long time to get this thing under control. Almost 30 years. I'm still dealing with it today.

Of course, there are other things that I got out of my 'upbringing' that are advantages, if used and perceived correctly. I have a very strong will, and can drive myself onwards under the most extreme of conditions. Actually, I function best under extreme situations (being that such is what is 'normal' for me...because of my childhood). I have a very high tolerence for stress, and violence, meaning I can rationally think under such circumstances, and react accordingly. I don't give up easily (in fact, I don't give up...can't ever remember actually doing so...it's also one of my greatest weaknesses...). Because of the many 'strange' and different experiences in my childhood, and the almost total lack of parental control over me combined with the different environments that I lived in (big city, medium city, small town, wilderness, indian reservation, ghetto, 'rich area'), I have learned to approach problems from many different directions at once, seeing it from many different perspectives. I learn fast, am flexible, and adapt rapidly to new situations. I am a great survivor. I tend to think (and plan) over a long timespan. I evaluate myself and my experiences on a regular basis. I think alot, and can enjoy long periods of solitude without problem. Many these days think of me as 'easy going' or 'relaxed', because I don't seem to react to every little crisis that comes around the corner. Most of these 'little crisises' I have faced many times, and know the solution and can recognize the pattern of the crisis. I have great person identifying skills, though I tend to wait to see if my suspicions prove to be real.

So, plus and minuses...yes. However, it took me a long time to get where I am now...and much pain, and sacrifice. I applaud that you seem to be doing well, despite what you have been through. Kudos.

Please forgive my ramblings here. Your post brought back a lot of old memories...

And so therfore, the circle of life continues to spin. And there is no hard facts on anything. Some people can survive without both parents, some can't. It's just a matter of personal strenght. Which goes along with my theory on souls. Some people are old souls, and are strong willed and determined to survive. But since there are so many people being born, most people these days are new souls. When they are born, they have a brand spanking new soul, which has never experienced anything. So therefore without any guidance from a parental figure, they fail. But Webshaman and Raptor have survived and succeded. Perhaps due to their advanced soul...

Oh yea - DL-44 - thanks for the graciously put comments. And the reason I had those opinions was because I never discussed it with people in the Asylum, only my father, who is rather rascist.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-04-2002).]