Topic awaiting preservation: when the people you are raised to trust...

does this ever end?

This happened not too far from me, in a town I used to live in -
http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/hc-29001013.apds.m0303.bc-ct--churdec29,0,1814090.story?coll=hc%2Dheadlines%2Dnewsat3

DL it appears to be a sad fact of life that people like this are still around, maybe its not something new, maybe it's just with a change in peoples inner strengths that make them now feel able to talk to people ie the police about these perverts.

I guess what i am trying to say is that maybe not that long ago some people would have thought twice about reporting such incidents beacuase of the "He's a priest/doctor/whatever" who will belive me type thinking.

Perhaps this has been going on for years, i mean look at the cases coming to court now, where allegations about such activities decades ago are being prosecuted. Out of all the different types of abuse of power i find the priest type scenario the most sickening, the church isnt doing enough, its a plain simple fact, these people should be handed over to the police totally, not moved etc. These are by far the most dangerous of people, they are using their sense of high esteem that their position is held in to enable them to pursue their warped desires.

they should be dealt with the same way as doctors that abuse thier position, kicked out of their profession/calling. publically named, so that they in no way can pose a threat to society again, by obtaining a position in which they may find other victims.

maybe this souds harsh to some, but put it this way if it was your kid i guarantee you wouldnt think it was harsh!! in the bible it says an eye for an eye, it also says turn the other cheek i know, but in a situation like this thats gross negligence, lock them up, do whatever but lets keep these animals where they belong, in prison or a psycho ward, they are either purely evil perverts or seriously sick either way they do not deserve to be allowed to walk the streets.

Of course, it's been going on forever (I recall a thread, however, from maybe a year and a half ago, where I brought the subject up and was told I was nuts by someone...)

And they should be punished severely.

The catholic church has worked hard to coverup many of these as well, and I can only hope that eventually there are some more sever repercussions higher in the church hierarchy for such things.

This case struck me in particular though...partly because it's close to home, partly because the horriffic irony of raping someone you are counseling for having been raped...

Makes me very ill and violent.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-29-2002).]

i find this sick for sooo many reasons.

the whole concept of priests taking some ridiculous vow of celibacy is playing with fire for a start.

in one of his letters (in the bible), paul discusses this concept quite frankly. to paraphrase, he says: "i have myself wholeheartedly devoted to serving God, and as such, do not need any sexual pusuits (eg women. paul really wasn't attracted to them... but that's another story). However, it is easily conceivable that another person would be adversely affected by taking a vow of celibacy - it is far better for them to marry, and fulfil their desires for intimacy that way then being destroyed by them."

but of course, these priests say that they can handle the temptation, then succumb when they come into contact with 'easy prey'.

now, as far as punishment is concerned, i'm not going to quote any 'eye for eye' or 'turn the other cheek' verses.

but while jesus was on earth, he said that anyone who hinders children from coming to him will be punished most severely. and i have no doubt that performing those sort of atrocities whilst acting on behalf of the christian family discourages people from christianity.

one final note - whether or not you believe or adhere to the christian ideas and principles is not important here, in my opinion. The fact is that these priests do, and are supposed to be advocates for the religion, and as such, should be subject to the rules it outlines.

i always feel so dirty after hearing about these sort of things, it's just so sick.

Hmmm...how is it, that this man is still enjoying his freedom? Shouldn't he be behind bars? Do Priests then have immunity to prosecution? I don't understand this. If the girl told police that she said no, then why is this guy not in jail? Why is there no court case?

Aside from the moral picture, this is a clear case of the Law being broken...where is due process?

That's true Webshaman. What's up with that.

On another note, I have always wonder how someone who considers themself
to be a holy person can molest innocent children of God? I mean, this 17 year
old is one thing. It sucks and everything. But little boys...and young girls.

...Yuck...

I wish they would let the fathers, or uncles, or someone related to the child go
at the priest with a baseball bat for a couple minutes.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

"...go at the priest with a baseball bat for a couple minutes."

I think there might be a law against this.

NoJive: You are right that there is a law against that aswell, but trust me on this, if my daughter was the victim, and she had reported this and nothing was being done and the guy was still walking the street, we would *bump* into each other in a dark corner somewhere..why because if the law wont protect the innocent then i sure as hell would protect my children from filthy perverts like this freak..

but then i would probably get arrested and put in jail, while he continued to wlak the streets go figure which is the worst evil..

You may not get put in jail tomeaglescz.

I remember a while back there was this father who shot and killed
this bad guy who had killed his kid. The father got away with no penalty.
I saw it on TV. The guy killed the bad guy in an airport, when he was being
transfered to a new cell. There were tons of cops around and everything.

I always thought that was pretty cool.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

Here is a series of posts threaded NNTP style:
Catholicism Esposed.

My disillusionment with the church began a long time ago, and continues to this day.

I finally made peace with myself when I realized that it was just another way of trying to replace God with man. The prevailing notion is that holy men are better men, but in reality they are just men (please insert appropriate gender). They are no better and no worse than we ourselves are. It is rare to find a Priest (rabbi/pastor/etc) who actually takes his vows seriously and who lives them to the best of his ability.

This does not reduce the severity of the crime, but rather emphasizes the extreme wrongness of the act and how evil it is for anyone to commit it.

Of all crimes, ones of this type affect me the most. In my own life, I have talked to several women and girls who, at one time in their life, have been a victim of some type of molestation. Not by any member of the clergy, but by a family member. I can do nothing but feel profound rage and sorrow, and sometimes I think there is no redemption for a race that produces creatures such as these. These are women who I care about and they relate these stories to me because I have earned their trust. As a consequence of this, I would hurt them were I to take any action as the wounds have healed over and they have learned to live with the scars. Nothing more than my deepest respect for them would ever hold me back.

I only pray that I am never faced with a situation where I have to face the perpetrators of these crimes for I fear God may never forgive me for what I may do.

The saddest part is that this has been going on since mankind first gained intelligence. Perhaps it is a further punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge. We all value our freedom of choice, but at what price? ...at what price do we buy our humanity?

Why are there priests, anyway? I don't recall, it being mentioned anywhere in the bible, that Mankind should have priests. What, exactly, is a priest for? And what purpose does one serve?

I always thought that belief was a private thing...why do people need someone to tell them about this belief? Isn't that one of the reasons for the bible? So that people could learn about god?

I've always wondered about this...and I have never received a satisfactory answer...

As far as I'm concerned, Churches, and religous institutions have nothing to do with god...or belief. It's much more of a political entity, in the shell of belief.

This has been quite a big thing in Australia latley. One person finally came out about being sexually assaulted by a priest when they were younger...then the accusations started coming from everywhere. After a while the public stopped believing them and the sympathy drained off, and it no longer mattered if hte accusation was true or not...it just looked like they were jumping on thr band-wagon.

There used to be a really simple solution to stopping sexual-offenders offending again. Get convicted, get castrated...never able to do it again.

http://www.ncvc.org/infolink/Info29.htm

oh and before you swat me for it..read it...all the way though...remember...this all is nothing new..been going on since the dawn of time. The priest thing isn't any worse than this is it? Well?

[This message has been edited by ettie (edited 01-03-2003).]

Oh and not to lessen the severity of it..it's just as bad as it is a person in a trusted and nurturing position just like a family member and if you take their definition ...well it's the same thing and has the same effect.

[This message has been edited by ettie (edited 01-04-2003).]

My point exactly, Webs.

Once, I questioned one of the priests at my church (Catholic) about the virgin mary. His answer was that we pray to her to intercede between us and God. I then asked him why we couldn't pray to God ourselves.

He never had a satisfactory answer, and I'm sure his platitudes of the holiness of mary and her role as the mother of Jesus was a special one would have lulled the congregation, but I found not one shred of believable evidence to support this.

Once again, we try to put man before God.

webshaman - we don't need a priest.

in the old testament, priests were those who did 'holy' things - made sacrifices on behalf of the people, performed ceremonies, could forgive people, pronouce people clean or unclean, etc etc.

now, in those days, there were areas in the temples known as the 'inner sanctum' - where only priests could go - where they said the presence of God was (yes, they did believe he was everywhere, but also belived that he 'resided' there... i won't delve deeper, suffice to say that it was a site of spiritual significance). This place was barricaded off from the public with a curtain (and when priests went in there to pray, on rare occasions, they would have a rope tied to their leg, so that if they died from any holy visions in there, the other priests could drag him out, as one priest only went in there every 7 years or something like that, but i digress).

when Jesus died on the cross, one of the many things that happened then (like dead raising, and the sky turning black - it was chaos!) was that the curtain in the temple split from top to bottom.

jesus was then the sacrifice, so them priests were redundant - man had direct access to God thru God made human, jesus christ.

now, many churches have ministers - their prime role is to help people understand the word of God.

...and that's how i see it.

Silence - my qualm isn't that we put man before god, but rather that we (they) try to put man (certain men only of course) in place of god. And they do it in the name of god.

And with that self-alleged power, it's only a matter of time before it is abused.

In my personal opinion, there are *very* few organizations that are as evil as the catholic church.

DL - I agree completely except for a few minor points.

I wouldn't call the catholic church inherently evil. Rather, it is a victim of its own bureaucracy and rigidity. Its entire structure allows very little room for flexibility and as a result it is rotting from within.

From all this has come a hubris, developed over the years. Its members and even its congregation have become to think of God's grace as a right that is given after communion rather than a priviledge that is earned through faith. It has devolved into rote recitations of words that have gradually become meaningless.

In the middle ages, the services were done in latin and the congregation, for the most part, weren't sure of what they were really saying. Now, the constant repetition has served the same purpose. Saying the "Hail, Mary" 20 times is nothing more than a verbal sleeping pill and the brain shuts down after so much repetition.

As I said, my disillusionment began a long time ago and is further strengthened on an almost daily basis. Just look at the event in question, or the things that have happened in Northern Ireland.

silence - i doubt i will ever tire of reading your posts.

thanks for taking the time to contribute intelligently.

Silence - let me say the same. I agree, except on one point

I think the catholic church was never truly christian 100%.

It seems to me a bastardized version of the religion, adapted to fit roman thought.

It is, as you allude to, draped in the idea of lulling the poulace into "faith" rather than teaching them anything.

Demanding adherance, but offering a boat load of convenient loopholes so that it's not too much of a challenge...

Obviously, as with anything, there are exceptions.

As I never tire of putting the effort into writing something worth reading for those I respect, reitsma.

DL - Yes, there are exceptions, and we learn to treasure them even more. Sometimes, they're the only reason any of us keeps going.

^absolutely. very well put.

Wow! there are some great insgihts above

I first heard about the Catholic church's "policy" on priests who committed these crimes about 10 years ago. I remember quite clearly at that time pleading with my Catholic friends to explain to me how defending the priests could possibly be tolerated. My friends had answers none of which I found credible and frankly just seemed like copouts to me.

I also remember wondering where it would all end and that it had to come out someday somehow. Well that day has come lately and the Catholic church needs to go through a serious cleansing if it hopes to maintain credibility. The thing is that this will result in a backlash that will no doubt take down some perfectly innocent priests but that's precisely the kind of damage these kinds of crimes have brought home to roost.

I honestly don't know if Christ meant this literally, but hearing about these priests makes me seriously wonder:

"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"

--Matthew 18: 5-7

But I must point out that any sin can be forgiven and God does offer healing even to creeps such as in the article. But here's the deal though. You do not keep a person in a position of authority when they commit such heinous crimes!!! That is the part that kills about this. Why were they allowed to stay priests??? Is it because of the shortage? What kind of reason is that? Was it because the church had somehow bought into some modern secular thought on pedophiles not really being that damaging to children? I really don't know the answer.

What I think should have happened is that the church should have been the first organization to turn these priests into the local authorities. They should have been defrocked but allowed to stay a member if they were repentant but *never* NEVER allowed to hold a position of authority again... AND closely watched for the rest of their lives to prevent any further situations that would tempt them to repeat their crimes. Hey, but that's me and I'm not the Pope.

I should also point out that this kind of thing is not confined to the Catholic world. Our own churches have leaders who have been caught in serious scandals. The damage to the true mission of Christ's church is devastating. The waves of darkness are unrelenting and will continue until the Last Day.

WebShaman, you always come up with challenging questions that send me off to research decent answers for you. It's good that you keep us on our toes

"Why are there priests, anyway? I don't recall, it being mentioned anywhere in the bible, that Mankind should have priests. What, exactly, is a priest for? And what purpose does one serve?"

I second everything reitsma said in answering your questions. Here's a few more details. Remember Aaron the Levite, Moses' brother? His descendants and his tribe the Levites were ordained by Mosaic Law to be priests for all of Israel. The Law of Moses was way more than the 10 commandments. If you really want to get to sleep fast tonight, start reading Leviticus for some details. So it was definitely commanded by God that an entire tribe of Israel be dedicated to priestly duties.

There is disagreement among the Catholic church and Protestants about whether Christ intended us to have a priesthood after His sacrifice on the Cross.

A few years ago I attended a debate between, get this, a former Roman Catholic priest now Baptist and a former Lutheran now Roman Catholic scholar specifically whether or not Xianity was ever meant to establish a formal priesthood. To make a long debate short, the Catholics believe the NT actually refers to priests and of course believes that the NT is only partial authority, the rest coming from the Magisterium (the union of all the bishops and the Pope). Whereas Xians like myself, reitsma, JKMabry, believe all the references to the presbuteros in the NT are referring to either pastors or elders but definitely not priests.

So I say go with reitsma's explanation above about not needing priest anymore because Christ is the ultimate High Priest on the order of Melchizedek and has therefore superceded the need for a human priesthood from here on out.

DL-44, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Catholic church has always been devoid of true Christianity, but I certainly see it as a steady downhill slide particularly begun at Constantine's conversion. Although the signs of divergence from NT teaching are evident in some of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers such as Ignatius where we see a mention of the position of bishop presiding over a local congregations.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-09-2003).]

bugs: wow. long post, but certainly worth persisting through, even if it was jsut for this little gem:

quote:

---

If you really want to get to sleep fast tonight, start reading Leviticus for some details.

---

thanks for finding that matt 18 verse, i was trying to refer to that earlier.

also, to see whether or not priests are believed necessary in this "AD" time period we find ourselves, do we really need to look much further than to investigate the Acts of the apostles when jesus returned to heaven?
when you read acts, romans and the epistles, you don't see any confusing hierarchical setups, or oerloading with sacraments, or excessive superstitousness - just fellowship, sharing with those in need, and growing in numbers. Seems to have far more of a 'family' feel, not the 'corporation' feel that some catholica churches tend to reek of.

First of all, thanks Bugs...sorry about 'straining the brain' questions...it was just 'bug'ging me ...very nicely said...and I still see no place in the Bible that suggests that Mankind should have Priests...

Second, I would like to comment on what Reitsmas comment, on modern-day belief...that is, most people can now read and write (which wasn't the case, way back then...), so there is really no real reason for Priests, right? I mean, it's all in the Bible...one just needs to read it, and discuss it, in groups, like Reitsma pointed out...and like we are doing here...I understand that before, as very few could read, that it was necessary for someone to study the gospel, and deliver it unto the faithful...by word of mouth. However, I just don't see a need for it, these days.

Third, I agree whole-heartily with you on the actual topic...that Priests, once found to be guilty of child-molestation, should be de-frocked, and should never, ever be allowed to be priests again (after they have been punished by the judicial system).

WS, well if you ask me and reitsma, we agree we no longer need priests. But the RCs see it quite differently. I would make the case that the NT did away with priests and they make the case it said to keep them.

Back to the original topic, this just came to light...holy crap!

quote:

---

The sexual abuse crisis that engulfed the Roman Catholic Church in the last 12 months has now spread to nearly every American diocese and involves more than 1,200 priests, most of whose careers straddle a sharp divide in church history and seminary training.

---

On top of that, are the victims...

quote:

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These priests are known to have abused more than 4,000 minors over the last six decades, according to an extensive New York Times survey of documented cases of sexual abuse by priests through Dec. 31, 2002.


The survey, the most complete compilation of data on the problem available, contains the names and histories of 1,205 accused priests. It counted 4,268 people who have claimed publicly or in lawsuits to have been abused by priests, though experts say there are surely many more who have remained silent.

---

I call that 'holy crap'. Unbelievable.

"holy crap"...oh man, if this wasn't such a disgusting topic I'd be cracking up over that one

What kills me is that, even though news of these issues originally came out decades ago, nobody really wanted to listen.

I can't tell you how many times over the last ten years I have made a reference to such things and had people look at me like I was some kind of idiot for even suggesting the possibility.

Makes me wonder if Pete Townsend was ever ordained...?