Topic awaiting preservation: "No longer shall I..

..tinker with the machinery of death."

If you're in favor of the death penalty you want to get your hands on the speech delivered today by outgoing Illinois Governor George Ryan. He commuted sentences of 157 inmates.
CNN carried the whole speech... so maybe it's available there somewhere. You really want to hear or read what he had to say.
Very scarey statistics.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/11/illinois.death.row/index.html

quote:

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Ryan, who leaves office Monday, pardoned four death row inmates Friday after determining they had been tortured into confessing crimes they did not commit.

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what a pussy.

"The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason."
- T.S. Eliot

I don't favor capital punishment for our society. Yes, that means I think there are times and places it's a good idea. But I'm glad to see this move and am even more glad it was done by a Republican.

I must say, however, there are some people who are on death row that really tempt me to call for their deaths, like David Westerfield down in San Diego who killed that little girl purely to satisfy his own sexual lusts.

. . : slicePuzzle

Hmm, that's an interesting point you make bugs. The Death Penalty is more of an economic issue rather than a 3 sided opinion. I mean some people won't support the Death Penalty simple because it is the killing of another human being, and that itself is a hypocrisy upon the government. But what some people don't realize is that our tax dollars go to inmate housing. States without a Death Penalty tend to be in economic debt because polititions ignore that little fact. It's simple, if you commit the crime, you should be able to do the time, or in this case, you should be prepared for death. The higher the consequences, the less of the crime. For example, if every felony resulted in the Death Penalty, less felonies being commited, less Bank Robberies, less murders, less money londering, less counterfeit. In my humble opinion, homocide that is not ruled as manslaughter should indeed result in the Death Penalty. They did the crime, that is there punishment because I for one do not want to pay for their food, cloths, toilet water, soap on a roap, ass guards, and a load of etc prison excessories. I think George Bush had it down right the first time when he executed those prisoners in Texas. He said it himself that he could sleep easily at night. That move alone pursuaded most uneducated voters into thinking that he was a cold hearted man with no real political knowledge. Wrong, and I don't want to wonder off topic but Bush is far more intelligent than the media and even SNL portray him. He just can't speak publicly, heh. I find it incredibly hard to believe that 4 prisoners were tortured into confessing crimes they didn't commit. If that is true, however, than they should most definately be pardoned. But the rest of the Death Row should remain, on Death Row. Greatness requires sacrifice. Some people just have to die to make things better, because when they remain alive, it only makes it harder for the rest of the country.

I'm sorry I actually committed myself to reading that illegible blob of text, but...

one point...

It costs us more to sentence a person to death than life in prison because of the lengthy automatic appeals process for anyone sentenced to die.

Of course, if we got rid of that, the death penalty would save us alot of money, yes.
Although I'd hate for any juror to actually think of that as a consideration when sentencing.
Yeesh.

[This message has been edited by genis (edited 01-12-2003).]

quote:

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It costs us more to sentence a person to death than life in prison because of the lengthy automatic appeals process for anyone sentenced to die.

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Really? I don't think so.

InSiDeR, I haven't looked at the figures recently, but as of a few years ago that actually was the case. It was more expensive to the tax payer to put someone to death than to jail him for life.

I think that as a very prosperous nation we can afford to incarcerate people for life as opposed to offing them. By doing so, we prevent any further crimes (outside of the prison walls only) while not killing innocent people that perhaps can be exonerated as new technologies emerge. This is what we are seeing with DNA testing as you know.

There are compelling moral arguments for the death penalty and like I said that when there is absolutely no doubt a person did the crime, I'm a lot less opposed to offing them. But I would still hold to my principle of life inprisonment over the death penalty.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-12-2003).]

I am against the Death Penalty. I think we have had threads on this before, and I have made my stance on that quite clear. I feel that a society has no right to condome Murder, and then turn around, and commit it. Granted, that there are crimes where one feels tempted to hange the death penalty on the criminal in question...however, I don't think that society should be the one to do it...

But we are ignoring the 'meat' of the article (or the heart of it)...and that is 'confessing' under torture...which only works when one knows someone is guilty...not suspects. A person under torture will agree to anything, given the right amounts of torture...and is hardly a reliable tool, in cases like this. With this in mind, I commend the actions of the man...

Thanks for digging up that link DG. The Govenors speech was pretty impressive I thought. Unfortunately that particular article did not include much of the statistical information he laid out.

Emotionally I'm in favor of the death penalty but in calmer moments most certainly against it...if for no other reason that it is wrong, imo, to give the 'state' the power to kill.

I used to think pretty much along the lines of Insider and held those views for a good long time but that was when I also chose to ignore issues of economics and race. I was also naieve enough to believe the justice system was fair and that 'truth' itself would prevail thus preventing an innocent person from first, being imprisoned, then murdered by the state. And of course that's the way it is...<lol>

I am for the Death Penalty. Gov. Ryan was irresponsible in commuting 157 sentences. I am less opposed to his giving consideration to those who were supposedly tortured, but all 157 on death row?!?! Did he personally examine each and every case? (edit: am reading the Gov's speech and he says he did examine every case. But in the same speech he also states he is not a lawyer ...)

The story that it costs more to execute a prisoner is false.

quote:

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Another False Claim By Death Penalty Opponents ... I say that because we are misinformed by the opponents of the death penalty when they tell us that it is more expensive to have execution than life without parole. Our association will be happy to provide written material which documents the fallacy of that claim. Suffice it to say for purposes of this presentation that they cook the books when they make that claim. For example in most studies that proffer that opinion, they include the costs of appeal in death penalty cases, but assume that those individuals who receive life without parole do not appeal their convictions. Similar statistical games give renewed credence to the observations of Mark Twain concerning the temptation to use numbers to bolster ones position.

George Moore, President of the Kentucky Commonwealth's Attorneys Association

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Cell Number: 494 / Inkstick

[This message has been edited by BeeKay (edited 01-13-2003).]

I live in St. Louis, MO and the local paper, the St. Louis Post, has been covering this story a lot...for almost 3 years.

Beekay, while it seems hard to believe that Ryan has looked at all 157 cases, I can say this was not a rushed decision. This has been in the local press here for a long time, lots of interest groups getting involved, lots of judges getting involved, lots of prosecuters and lawyers and interviewing old police officers and family members...it has been big.

I think when college students find enough evidence to exonerate 13 death row prisoners (1 less than 48 hours before his death) and you find at least 4 more that were convicted on confessions only, and those confessions were based on torture, you really have to question the entire policy.
I'm not arguing here that the death penalty is right or wrong, but it is hard to imagine anyone saying that Illinois' version of that death penalty perfect.
Torture is not acceptable.
17 innocent dead is not acceptable.
When you are dealing with life and death, perfection is not too high a goal.

I give 150 different kinds of respect to Gov. Ryan for this move. Very curageous.

Amen.

quote:

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For example in most studies that proffer that opinion, they include the costs of appeal in death penalty cases, but assume that those individuals who receive life without parole do not appeal their convictions.

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The difference is, the appeals court can reject an appeal by a lifer, but are not allowed to do so in a death penalty case.

It doesn't matter though, money should never be a consideration.
Only the punishment should matter.

I am against the death penalty, but not for any of the reasons by the above posters.

I find death to be too easy a way out for offenders.
A life of hard labor and solitary confinement with no television or internet or other fanciful amenity priviledges is what these people deserve as punishment.
Death is an escape. Congratulations, you get to escape from life.

I would rather get death than life without parole, myself.
But it all depends on your belief system.
The justice system seems to believe death is a one-way ticket to hell for the accused.

And sentencing is not about keeping offenders out of the public, and stopping them from harming again, although that is a part.
Sentencing is punishment.

And certainly a death sentence is the most befitting the crime in Westerfield's case, although if allowed, I'd do far worse to the scum.
Because you know, his getting a shot in the arm and being allowed to drift off to forever sleep is nothing compared to what that little girl had to go through, and her family.

I still hold little respect for Ryan.
He would study a case, but wouldn't have a prosecutor argue the case in front of him like a judge would. And like he said, he's not a lawyer.
He didn't stick around to help fix the shitty justice system that runs under his management.
And he did it on the way out.
Seems like a legacy making attempt to me.

But saddest of all, is just because the death sentence is involved will there be people looking to see if someone has been incarcerated unjustly.
Obviously if those who got death unjustly numbered in that many, there is probably that many that got life unjustly.

The justice system has certainly sucked in Illinois, and sucks many places elsewhere I'm sure.

Let's fix it.