Topic awaiting preservation: A four-winged dinosaur...the evolutionary intermediate?

This is just fantastic...and should shut-up all those anti-evolutionists, who keep saying there are no evolutionary intermidiate fossil records...Full Story here. Here is a bit from the article

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Many key questions remain about just where these unique beasts fit along the evolutionary path from dinosaurs to modern birds, but scientists have never seen their like before and are already speculating about the aerodynamics of the dinosaurs' strange anatomy.

"It's an incredible discovery, the kind of thing we've wished for -- well, for centuries now," said Kevin Padian, a noted paleontologist at UC Berkeley. "The specimens are potentially as important as archaeopteryx," he said, referring to the world's first known true bird.

The report on the 128 million-year-old fossils is appearing in today's issue of the international scientific journal Nature by veteran Chinese paleontologists, headed by Xing Xu and Zhonghe Zhou of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

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I find this part to be of most interest

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Although no fossil of a dinosaur with four full-fledged wings had ever been known to science, the famed deep-sea-diving naturalist William Beebe, who died in 1962, believed that they must have existed. Beebe roamed the world from the Galapagos to Europe and Asia and was an early advocate of the theory that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs.

In a monograph published in 1915 in the journal Zoologica, he predicted that four-winged dinosaurs looking exactly like Microraptor gui must have existed in the distant past because infant birds were born with downy legs.

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Ahhh...I love fossiles...

from article

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Moreover, he said, "there is no reason to assume that gliding is a necessary way-station to flight, nor that a gliding animal will necessarily evolve powered flight.

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This sentence just got me thinking, and then suddenly I was picturing a dinosaur, and next thing I knew like in fast forward, I saw a mental image of the dinosaur evolving into the birds we have today. It was like 2 millions years of change seen in super-duper high speed fast forward. It was quite interesting and a rather overwhelming feeling.

Of course all of this is probably just because my wife is 8 1/2 months pregnant, and she is not sleeping well, so therefore neither am I.

Just thought I would share that.

Thanks for the article.

Cell 816~ teamEarth ~Asylum Quotes

Well, congrats!!!

Good stuff, WS. Dinosaurs rule!!! (ummm... I mean they used to)

. . : slicePuzzle

Thanks Bugs.

And yeah, Dinosaurs rule...the air, anyway...

That's one wierd looking creature...hehe...

That's the kind of dinosaur that got beat up in high school.

It's a....flying...monkey...lizard....


very cool find =)

Good job...Score one for the evolutionists, although I am still sticking to my beliefs. Just personal preference, but I am definatly not a "blind believer, I think."

This is a question about evolution that I had though: If it were true, then where did the original chemicals and inanimate object come from?

<.~ - - - - :!: - - - - ~.>

You are not special.
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake.
You are the same decaying
organic matter as everything
else.

<.~ - - - - :!: - - - - ~.>

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 01-28-2003).]

webshaman?

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Ahhh...I love fossiles...

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how old *is* your wife?

Hehe...she's coming personally to you to reply to that

cfb - hmmm...well, as of yet, no evidence that directly supports the theories (of the beginnings of the Universe)...but, you could give Science a chance... As for where the material came from (you mean the beginning of the Universe, right?)...well, that's something that Science is still trying to figure out. Theories abound...so, we will see...with a bit of time, and luck, maybe the evidence for that is just around the corner...who knows? Cetainly, there is a lot of indirect evidence...and a lot of scientists are working on it...

I think that this fossil is really exciting...for many opponents of evolution have espoused the lack of 'intermediaries' in the fossil records...well, now we have some. Once again, Science comes through with the evidence...was just a matter of time...and a bit of luck.

Still one wierd looking creature, though...hehe.

It's amazing, the way a creature like this can develop. More eye-candy for the Darwinists!

RN3... amazing??? You mean like miraculous sort of amazing?

WS, didn't we settle this in the formal debate? If there was a beginning, science will never be able to touch it.

. . : slicePuzzle

Oh, fond memories, that debate...we need to get another going...

It was really an honor to debate with and against you, Bugs...treasured memories...

But we didn't really get much into what came before the Big Bang...at least, I didn't...because there is no real reliable evidence, as such...it would have been all conjecture...

Fond memories here too, in spades

My point was *not* referring to the Big Bang. Why? Because the Big Bang may very well have been one of millions of big bangs which would not mark the beginning of Creation. What I mean to say is that if indeed there was nothing prior to everything we know as the Universe then science will never be able to touch *that*. Science deals with the universe but it cannot go beyond its boundaries.


[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-28-2003).]

I'll accept evolution, I never haven't accepted evolution, especially micro-evolution. I mean, even if you beleive in the Bible you have to beleive in evolution (Noah's ark is what I'm thinking of). I don't see why evolutionists and creationists can't just get along. If you fit both theories together, you'd come up with a sound theory that isn't disputable. You know: God created everything, and let it run it's course, but he intervenes. Humans didn't evolve, but some animals did, and some evoloved into abstractly new creatures, while others just created variations of themselves (eg dogs).

it would be impossible to state that humans did not evolve if you state that everything else did (even on a very small level)

"Here we go.. down that same 'ole road again.." - Dredg

What if humans were created amidst changing creatures?

They would still evolve... we're evolving as we ... type

"Here we go.. down that same 'ole road again.." - Dredg

I'd agree with that, were adapting, but why can't the two theories accept each other, and use each of there qualities to explain the other? Like where matter came from? God could of created it, but let it go at it's own pace. He could of let animals adapt and evolve, and created man in the midst of it.

Sanzen, man hasn't even been on the planet long enough to evolve. What are you talking about? A few thousand years is a drop in the bucket when it comes to seeing any significant changes in a species.

Obviously, that's not quite true, Bugs...what about the appendix (useless organ), wisdom teeth, and balding?

If these don't have anything to do with evolution, then why did God include such imperfections into the human race?

Or were Adam and Eve made without appendixes and wisdom teeth?

And what about body hair?

Modern man has all of those traits, doesn't he?

But upon reflection, I see that I dodged your question and that really sucks.

If God created Adam at a certain point in time, then it is my view that he allowed the organism we know as Modern Man to progress to a certain point in evolutionary history at which point the "breath of life" was breathed into him and he became a "living" being. I totally accept that without our spirits we are animals just like any other on this planet.

I've been meaning to point out that I found myself agreeing almost totally with that link Gilbert posted a little while back... ah yes this one Evolutionary Creationism.

Did you get a chance to read through that one? I'll admit I got about a third of the way through and skimmed to the end but it looked right on target with my feelings at this point in my understanding.

Oh yes...I remember that! Yes, I read it...very interesting...

Yes, one could make the case of Evolutionary Creationism...that brings us back to the original Creator issue, of course...

That interesting debate between is the Universe a natural occurance, or a created one. Unfortunatly, neither Science nor Religion is able to answer this question resoundingly...at least, not yet. It's still a question of belief...

I believe (since I have no real evidence to present) that it is a natural phenomena...since I don't believe in an original Creator...

A natural phenomenon? But before, there would of been nothing, right? Just empty space. OR maybe there wasn't space at all. How can something come out of nothing? That defies the laws of Physics...

...Link=Bookmark! I read about half way through, I'll read the rest later. I'm tending to agree with (most of) it.

No, it violates nothing...because the laws of physics only apply within our universe...and not necessarily in what came before...or from outside of our universe...

Also, it is not clear, if the universe is an ever-expanding one, or a collapsing one...so at this point, it is conjecture, as to whether or not there is a beginning...in that, I mean a first beginning, or origin.

If it was collapsing, for example, then one would naturally wonder how it first got started...but that doesn't mean that there has to have been a first start...it depends on what happens to time, within the final collapse...remember, that the laws of physics may change within the framework of the Big Bang...so, at this point, until there is concrete evidence, it is all theory and conjecture...albeit there is a lot of indirect evidence...

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How can something come out of nothing? That defies the laws of Physics...

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So...where did 'god' come from?

And that, indeed, is the question...and both are impossible to answer, at the moment.

But...at least one can explain possiblilities, to how the universe started...and what came before. Explaining how God came to be, along Scientific lines, is much harder...what, it just popped out of nowhere? Then God is nothing? And if it came from somewhere else, then it is not a supreme being...for then something must have created it.

Would you settle for a God that created the universe, but was, in turn, created by another, more powerful being? And where does the cycle end?

The easiest answer to that DL, is to say that God always was

In fact, there are many who believe the physical universe always was too.

So, in other words (just to make sure we're clear here =), religion can't explain the beginning of things any better than science?

Now, I don't think anyone from any perspective could ever explain how it all started, as it's pretty close to impossible to comprehend "nothing". And how could there be nothing...and then be something...

Yes.

When it comes to answering how any one thing could have become something from absolute nothing, I would agree it really becomes a philosophical point where you choose from "it always existed" or "it had a beginning".

anything that can be "proven" so to speak can be re-worded and such to be .. disproven. Every creating 'myth' is a hypothesis yet to be proven, and none of them have shown significant enough proof that such and such actually happened. All of this relies on faith... the scientist is said to not have faith enough to believe in creation by god, but thats quite ironic. because he has the faith to believe that matter was created out of nothing? Has anyone ever thought that the world was created by other beings? "Extraterrestrials.." as they are so appropriately named. Perhaps they found a way to create a vortex that sucked molecules together and caused a chemical reaction that formed gas that created the earth.... You can believe anything you like. None of it happened. It can't be explained and it wont be.

"Salting the back of a snail... My turkish prison is knowing that i fit in...."- Glassjaw

Sanzen, this

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anything that can be "proven" so to speak can be re-worded and such to be .. disproven.

--Sanzen

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is not always true...if I hold an apple, and drop it (on Earth), then Newton's proof of gravity works. The apple falls. This proof doesn't describe Gravity, only the mechanisms behind the falling of the apple. That is Science.

Conjecture, theory, and postulation, is something different. Until proven, they remain just that...conjectures, theories, and postulations.

Science (in its purest form) is not based on Belief! It's based on providing evidence, that can readily be repeated...to show that it is true. Sometimes, this process is not fully researched, which can (and often does) lead to revisions, as new facts become known, or old 'facts' get disproven.

The only way, to actually prove Religion (or Belief) is if there was provable evidence of God's existence. There may (or may not) be indirect evidence, but the heart of the issue is unproven. That's why it is an issue of belief.

As for the 'beginning of everything' theories...well, they are just that, theories...or beliefs, if you will. It's just that some of them are based on the Scientific method, and others on the Religious method. I personally tend to lean towards the Scientific theories, myself, for I feel that this method has the best chance of proving the issue...

Religion requires me to believe, without proof. Science does not.

you might find this to be interesting

"I can repeat the question, but am I bright enough to ask it?"


[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 01-30-2003).]

oops


[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 01-30-2003).]

All I have to say about that, though it was interesting, is

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Now do you believe that this protein motor which manufactures ATP has been created by chance or was it the design of an intelligent mind.
This is the issue facing each one of us.
I personally cannot believe it has originated by chance.


--Biblemaths

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This article is old, apparently...science has already found that the materials needed for organic life are found free-floating in space...one just needs the right conditions for it to start. The Author admits, that it is still, despite the article, a personal choice to believe or not.

We often talk about the creationism vs. evolution, and I've read many articles that provide evidence for evolution. What I haven't really been exposed to is evidence for Creationism.

We should start a thread that just discusses the pros and cons of Creationism and provide evidence for or against it while steering clear of evolutionary arguements. That way we could discuss it's merits without devolving into the same old God - antiGod arguement.

Great idea! Let's get a Debate started! I'm submitting the idea now...

Well, after crawling through that article that outcydr provided...hoboy...I can only say, the man is off his rocker. Much of this stuff was done before, by a Russian Mathmetician, who tried to prove that God existed mathmatically. It was disproven, and the Russian Mathmetician eventually ended up in a madhouse...

As for Pi and E...maw gawd, the guy is really going bananas over this...but the values are incorrect...so much for that...

From his 'Indisputable facts' comes nothing factual out...

*shrugs*

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 01-30-2003).]

The theory of evolution has lots of problems of that you can be sure ***BUT*** proving Evolution wrong does *not* prove Creationism right.

. . : slicePuzzle

quote
"and the Russian Mathmetician eventually ended up in a madhouse..."

like in an asylum?

bwahahaha...couldn't resist that one...bwahahaha...
*runs away*

Maybe he's Ruski?

Hehe...that was good. No offence meant, BTW.

Well, I agree Bugs. Wholeheartedly. It would be plainly wrong to say, that the theory of evolution was a finished product as it now is. However, it is progressing...and being refined...and edited as new evidence comes to light. That somewhat relieves me...for were it to be considered 'finished' as it now stands...then I would have to seriously question it. And that is why I gave religion a pass...it is finished. So, any holes, disparities, and errors, cause the religious sector to scramble for a way to adapt...to refute. And that is plainly wrong, IMHO.

HOLY SHIT I FOUND GOD!!!!! AAAHHHHHHHAAAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHA I DID IT!!!

ITS TRUE AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!! I AM MOTHAFUCKING GENIUS!!!!!!

*runs into the basement screaming, out of nowhere suho jumps out and shocks me*
*falls to the flour*

*breath slowly*

I....I...did...it.... suho? what ar..e you doing?...where a..re..you taking me?....suho...w.w..ai..t......do..n..t... oo..h.h.sh.ii..t....not again

Personally I'm a person who thinks of things in relative terms to anything else. If 'God' came from somewhere else, in that place, no, he/she would not be a supreme being, but in this universe, in relative terms to everything else around that he/she created, then yes...God is a supreme being.

ruski is a genius....

"Salting the back of a snail... My turkish prison is knowing that i fit in...."- Glassjaw

fuel for the fire

Gen1:11=And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,the herb...etc
Gen1:12=And the earth brought forth grass,and herb...etc
Gen1:20=And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life...etc
Gen1:21=...,which the waters brought forth abundantly...etc
Gen1:24=And God said, Let the earth bring forth...and it was so.

~as you like it~

If you have a point to make, perhaps you just should?

god made the herb man...

i always knew he was a pothead.

"Salting the back of a snail... My turkish prison is knowing that i fit in...."- Glassjaw

the point being evolution

the earth brought forth? the water brought forth?
why do so many people think that creation and evolution are at such odds?
and science? science is just a tool. religion is just a tool.

edit:
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"The only way, to actually prove Religion (or Belief) is if there was provable evidence of God's existence. There may (or may not) be indirect evidence, but the heart of the issue is unproven. That's why it is an issue of belief."

Doesn't this also apply to Science? Isn't it the aim of Science to find the beginning and the end of things--to ultimately answer the questions of where did it come from and where is it going and WHY?

We look outward to the end of the Universe and, as Scientists, think we are seeing the edge of it, but whats beyond that, is only conjecture and theory. We look inward and think we see the microscopic beginnings of life but, again, beyond what we see, it is only conjecture and theory.

What makes us think there is a beginning or ending? Who's to say that at some point the whole thing doesn't fold in on itself and go on forever folding in and out? Evolving, mutating, ever changing. As has been stated, it boils down to belief. And what is belief but faith. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Infinity is a hard concept to grasp, but it is what i believe. My God.

/rant
*wanders off again to find a cold beer

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 01-31-2003).]

Thanks, I have a better idea of where you're coming from now. I think most of those things you ask are open questions and will probably remain so for a long time to come.

I disagree that science seeks to answer WHY though. How exactly can it do that? Science deals with the material world through measurements and careful analysis of those measurements. It is up to entities with the capability of asking "why" to decide the answer to that question. And that answer as far as I know always comes down to faith or a lack thereof.

Just out of curiosity, what are your personal beliefs on religion. Are you Xian or some other faith? Or what? I haven't been able to tell from your posts that I have read. Only if you don't mind of course

i loathe what the label of christian has become these days
i stand on the rock
covered by blood

Did that brew thrust you back into pretentious mode? You're killing me here!

sorry

My friend, it's just that my powers of understanding some of your comments are a bit below par. Can I assume that you are a believer in Jesus Christ but are very disillusioned with many organizations that tout his name? I don't like guessing about your views because I don't want to get them wrong. It's much easier, and accurate, for me to have you tell me

[edit] I'm having some strange caching double posting problems here and I just posted a similar reply and then noticed the first one was there [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-31-2003).]

the same doubleposting thing happened to me yesterday
my post didn't show up for quite some time. then when i reposted -pow- both posts showed up--?

i don't mean to derail this thread but, yes bugs you've got it right
i apologize if my comments seem cryptic at times
my communication skills must be somewhat lacking
even though at times it is intentional

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How can something come out of nothing? That defies the laws of Physics...

-counterfeitbacon

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Not necessarily.

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 01-31-2003).]

You can't defy a law that doesn't exist, eh? Interesting.

Rap thats damn intresting...why we never heard of it before?

That was brilliant! I am really astonished by that...nice link!

Wow...

Ok, it's just a theory, at this point. However, it does show how the Universe could have formed naturally...

I'm more than overjoyed at that concept...*hugs Science*

Yup, thanks for bring that up Bug's. Evolutionary Creation. You got it.

Here's another one for you, which I wrote.

Evolutionary Creation

Humm. Pretty good read, Raptor

Cell 816~ teamEarth ~Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 01-31-2003).]

I read in Discovery magazine that there is a fossil factory in China. It just so happens that this fossil was "discovered" in that region.

And your point?

Are you perhaps suggesting, that China manufactured the fossils? Then I suggest you re-read the articles over the find...

Personally, I would like to know what belief you follow...but that is up to you.

Yeah, it's really a good read. The math does weird things to me. Oddly, it makes sense even though it's far over my head

Hebedee: Do you have a link to the story? Most of Discover's articles end up online.

This is very interesting The WMAP Findings, esp. this

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The new WMAP data also strengthen the Big Bang theory, and strongly support experiments showing that the shape of the universe is flat.

--Science Blog

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Evidence supporting Guth's Grand Guess...yah!

God is getting smaller...hehe...

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God is getting smaller...hehe...

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Well, while I am personally quite confident that there is no such thing as a 'god', this doesn't in any way dispell the idea that there is one.

'god' could just as easily have started the universe with a big bang as any other way

Amen brodda! This really doesn't have any bearing on those of us who see no contention between religion and science. Anybody who thinks it has to be only one of those however is affected by findings such as these.

I urge anyone interested in the so called science vs. religion issue to read this book God and the Astronomers.

I'm fairly certain no one is rushing out to get that book so I really wanted to post one of the best bits for y'all.

The following comes from God and the Astronomers by Robert Jastrow, W.W. Norton & Company, 1992, pp 106,107.

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Consider the enormity of the problem. Science has proven that the Universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks, what cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter and energy into the Universe? Was the Universe created out of nothing, or was it gathered together out of pre-existing materials? And science cannot answer these questions, because, according to the astronomers, in the first moments of its existence the Universe was compressed to an extraordinary degree, and consumed by the heat of a fire beyond human imagination.
The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion. An entire world, rich in structure and history, may have existed before our Universe appeared; but if it did, science cannot tell what kind of world it was. A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our Universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation.

This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. To which St. Augustine added, "Who can understand this mystery or explain it to others?" The development is unexpected because science has had such extraordinary success in tracing the chain of cause and effect backward in time. We have been able to connect the appearance of man on this planet to the crossing of the threshold of life on the earth, the manufacture of the chemical ingredients of life within stars that have long since expired, the formation of those stars out of the primal mists, and the expansion and cooling of the parent cloud of gases out of the cosmic fireball.

Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

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About the Author:

An internationally known scientist and authority on life in the Cosmos, Dr. Jastrow is the Director of the Mount Wilson Institute, which manages the Mount Wilson Observatory in California, the site of the first discoveries leading to the Big Bang theory. Dr. Jastrow joined NASA at the time of its formation, and founded and was for 20 years the Director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Dr. Jastrow was the first Chairman of NASA's Lunar Exploration Committee, which set the scientific goals for the exploration of the moon. He is the recipient of the NASA Medal for Excellence in Scientific Achievement and a member of the Board of Governors of the National Space Society. Formerly Professor of Astronomy and Geology at Columbia University and Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth College, Dr. Jastrow is widely known for his television appearances in astronomy and space exploration. He has been host of more than 100 CBS-TV network programs on space science. Dr. Jastro's books on astronomy and space have sold more than a million copies.

[edit] Is it ever possible to post anything without typos? Ack!!! [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-15-2003).]

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he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

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Ack. Now that's just getting a little absurd.

Scientists are at a place where they can't explain something, and so the people that have never tried to explain it have somehow beat them to something??



It seems to drop everything right back to the stoneage ignorance that says 'we can't explain it, so it must be the gods'

See, that doesn't make god 'bigger' any more than WS' quotes make god 'smaller'.
God is a concept. Conveniently adaptable to fit whatever niche people would like it fit in. And people have tried to fit god into just about every niche conceivable.

=)

Heavens to Betsy! I didn't post that to make God "bigger". The point is very well put in that excerpt and that is why I included as much as I did.

It's just that he's saying that if all the tools of science are made useless prior to the Big Bang, then there is nothing left for the scientist (scaling this mountain of knowledge) but to sit back and acknowledge 'it just happened' which is hardly different from 'God spoke'.

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The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion.

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I love paradox.

No, I know you didn't post it to make god bigger...that was really just an aside, realtion to WS' quote and all...

It just seems silly to me...the implication that if we can't explain, it must be god.

That mentality would stop us from ever *trying* to explain things...and I can't fathom it.

We've reached an impasse in science, so let's acquiesce to religion? That's what I'm getting from his statement anyway...we've come this far, can't explain the rest, so....screw it - god did it.

I don't think he's saying you give in to anything because you hit a road block. I think the point is that the road block could bring both sides to the exact same location. How each side chooses to answer at that location is still at variance.

*sigh*

Guthrie's Grand Guess describes how the Universe came into creation...and what was there before. Now, evidence for what (if anything) was there before may be hard to come by...and may not be hard to come by. We will see. Just because someone says 'The evidence was blown to smithereens' doesn't make it so.

God is getting smaller, meant that Science is once again rolling back the unknown...providing evidence for theories, that explain the unknown. Isn't that what Science does best? Explain the unknown? And isn't that where God is 'hiding'? That's all that I meant...

I don't believe in God...so...*shrugs*

Whatever.

I don't believe in god either, but all I'm saying is, no matter how much we learn about the universe through sicence, it doesn't actually prove that there isn;t a 'god' who was actually doing all these things.

It might disprove many specific beliefs of many people, but it can always be said that, 'well sure that;s how happened, because god made it that way'.

Whihc, from my personal point of view is a bunch of crap, but it's just as valid a belief as any other, really...

Well, yes, DL...but that 'pushes' God further back...to outside of the Universe...one could then try to make a case that God created the conditions for a natural start of the Universe...but that is not the same as actually creating the Universe...the difference between adding chemicals to get a reaction, and designing the chemicals for a specific reaction.

You know, Einstein was a really brilliant man (just about everything he theorized, has now been supported, with evidence). However, even he disbelieved some of his own theories - because he just couldn't put that together, and hold his belief in God ("God does not play dice" - Einstein).

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 02-17-2003).]